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Ancient Dacia ca. 1,0 millions

Romanian countries in:

1600 ca. 2.2 millions

1859 ca. 8.6 millions

1912 ca. 12.9 millions

1930 ca. 14.2 millions

1948 ca. 17.4 millions

1977 ca. 21.5 millions

1999 ca. 22.4 millions

in Bulgaria: ] in Bulgaria live aprox. 125.000 - 150.000 Romanians.

in Ukraine: ] The former Soviet regime still uses, unfortunately, the artificial division created before 1990, that accredited the idea that in Ukraine exist two different nations: the Romanian and the “Moldavians”. Nowadays, the official statistics shows that in Ukraine exist 324.500 “Moldavians” and 134.800 Romanians. Adding this two officials data, results that the Romanian community represents the third minority group from Ukraine, after Ukrainians and Russians. On the other hand, the Romanian cultural organizations from Ukraine are estimating up to 800.000 the number of the Romanian community.

in Hungary:27.000-30.000 Romanians ]

in Vojividina:] 42.331 Romanians in Yugoslavia, 38.832 live in Vojvodina (1,93% of the entire population of Vojvodina)

The Romanians in east Serbia The Romanian (vlach) ethnic element is concentrated mostly in the region limited by Morava River (west), Danube River (north) and Timoc (south-eastern). According to the sources from the Romanian community, the Romanians (Vlachs) live in 134 villages (exclusively with Romanian population) and in 20 towns (with mixed population - Zaicear, Negotin. Bor, Kadovo, Majdanpek, Pojarevat, Jabucovat etc.) These results are inferior to the real number indicated by the leaders of the Romanian/Vlachs minority. They appreciate that only in Timoc Valley live 400.000 Romanians concentrated in 130 medium and small places and 20 towns.

Romanians in Albania The Aromanian associations appreciate that in Albania live 400.000 Aromanians, which situates this minority group as the biggest ethnic minority.

ROMANIANS IN MACEDONIA The Aromanian associations from FYROM estimate that in this country are 150.000 Aromanians. Official data - the census from 1991 - registered only 7.764 Vlachs (Aromanians), but this number in inferior to the real one.

• References: Textul de fata este preluat din lucrarea « Romanii din jurul Romaniei » coordonata de prof. Dr. Doc. Ion Gherman, Ed. Vremea, Bucuresti 2003

The total number of Romanians living in the United States in 2002 is estimated to be 1,200,000, even though the 1990 U.S. Census data reveals less than half of this number. http://www.ro-am.net/index.php?page=ro-am-communities

Macedo-Romanians from Balcanic Countries

Macedo-Romanians, also called Aromanians or Vlachs, live mostly in Albania, but also in Greece and Macedonia. In addition, they have lived in Yugoslavia and Bulgaria for over 2,000 years. Their history goes back to the First and Second Centuries A.D., when the Roman Empire included the territories of today’s Romania and neighboring Balcanic countries. It is estimated that there are about 600,000 to 700,000 Macedo-Romanians in the above mentioned countries. They know the Romanian language, but they also use their own dialect consisting of many archaisms, characteristic regional expressions and foreign influences. Macedo-Romanians consider themselves Romanian, and belong to the same Eastern Orthodox Church. In the United States, there are about 5,000 Macedo-Romanians, settled mostly in the states of Connecticut, New York, Rhode Island, New Jersey and Missouri.

Romanian Jews

Romanian Jews started arriving in America in the first half of the 19th century. Mass migration increased in the 1880s and at the turn of the century, because of discriminatory legislation. By the 1930s, over 130,000 Romanian Jews were in the United States. The flow of the immigration resumed after World War II, with the arrival of thousands of victims of the Holocaust or refugees fleeing the Communist regime in Romania. Some came via Israel. Presently, there are about 200,000-225,000 Romanian Jews in both America and Canada, mostly living in New York, Boston, Chicago, Los Angeles, Miami, Philadelphia, and Washington DC.

References: WERSTMAN, Vladimir F., Romanians in the United States and Canada - A Guide to Ancestry and Heritage Research North Salt Lake, Utah: HeritageQuest, 2002

Conclusions

There are more than 10,000,000 romanians abroad. -- Bonaparte talk 08:09, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

Bonaparte, not all macedo-romanians consider themselves romanian. there are macedo-romanians that consider themselves Greek as well. the majority of macedo-romanians consider themselves (aromanians), and they have closer ties with the countries that they live in. You can not count macedo-romanians as romanians, because they are not "romanian", and the majority of them in greece, albania, and macedonia do not consider themselves "Romanian". However, i am not sure about the macedo-romanians in Serbia. (BaNaTeaN 13:35, 25 December 2005 (UTC))

10,000,000 romanians abroad + 20,000,000 in Romania = 30,000,000 romanians worldwide. BaNaTeaN are you of hungarian minority from Romania who emigrated in Australia? BuCuReStiAn

I dont know what my nationality has to do with it, but NO. I was born in Australia, and my parents are ETHNIC ROMANIAN. are you rally out of your head! how can there be 20 million romanians in romania, if only 19.4 million said they were romanian in the 2002 census. And where does the 10 million in the world come from. show me a source you idiot. we are all sick of arguing with people like you and Bonaparte and Norbert Arthur. You people show no source. if you provide a source, ill be glad to acknowledge youre remark. But in the meen time, dont post nationalistic crap. (BaNaTeaN 14:40, 25 December 2005 (UTC))

You said here http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk%3ARomanians&diff=27409416&oldid=27203224 that more than 2,5 million romanians emmigrated. So, 2,5 millions romanians were not in Romania at the time of Census in 2001. Do you think that they are gone? BuCuReStiAn Who is idiot, we or you? It is not nationalistic crap - it is the reality. 10,000,000 romanians abroad + 20,000,000 in Romania = 30,000,000 romanians worldwide.BuCuReStiAn

Listen Bucurestian! 2.5 million romanians left. of which a great number were of minorities in romania, such as gypsies, hungarians, germans, jews. Romanians in romania in 1992 out of a population of 22.8 mill were probably at maximum 18 million. learn some proper english you idiot. there, i have spread out the infromation so you can understand more clearly.

<insult removed> All the articles here about the ethnic groups that have a big diaspora, like Poles, Germans or Italians accept that their country diaspora has a large number of people abroad. Just us we cannot accept it! WOW!!!!! This is so intelligent!Oh yeah and what's your probelm again with Bonaparte? I'm wondering if you even know were Romania is situated, because what you wrote here even you you don't believe!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

NorbertArthur 25 December 2005

<insult removed> ethnic groups such as germans, poles, and italians accept that their diaspora is big, because in the american census, 15 million said they were italian, 9 million said they were polish, and 42 million said they were german. If you could read ENGLISH, you probably would of saw this. romanian was reported by 367,313 people, however i believe the romanian people in america are about 1 million ethnics, which would mean that there are probably more than 15 million italians, more than 9 million polish, and more than 42 million germans in america as well. wat are all these stupid claims about 1 million romanians in Italy and 500- 1mill in spain. Im not saying that they are wrong, but if you count these people you also have to subtract the number of romanians from romania, because they are all citizens of romania, and they are counted in romania not spain and italy. before this whole working abroad phonemonon happened in Romania, the romanians in italy were about 40,000 , and in spain there were around 10,000 probably. now you are making stupid claims here on wikipedia that in fact there are minimum 500,000 romanians in spain, and 1 million in italy. You may be correct, but you dont acknowledge that the number of romanians from romania should decrease then. Why do you keep posting here, cant you see that none of the users here accept your thoughts on this issue about ethnic romanians. Listen mate, before you bad mouth JMABEL, i think you should know that he is much more accepted on this article than you and BONAPARTE, because unlike some people, he provides sources for his numbers. Your stupid 30 million ethnic romanian claim is useless here, go and find some othere encyclopedia and post your fucked-up results there. ethnic romanians in the world probably around 24-25 million. (BaNaTeaN 00:22, 26 December 2005 (UTC))

Macar de v-ati injura pe romaneste, in spiritul confruntarilor intre baieti, traditionale in aceasta perioada a anului. --Vasile 00:27, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

This discussion is out of control

Everyone: please try to be polite, even when you disagree strongly. No progress can be made with personal attacks and prejudices. In the hope that some agreement can be reached, I will make the following points:

(1) I am not able to comment on the number of Romanian diaspora generally: I work on immigration into southern Europe, and more recently on migrations and Romania.

(2) Data on ethnicity such as the links Bonaparte provided need to be used, because the Romanians abroad are mainly the result of older migrations. But, I understood Aromanian as being distinct from Romanian. Am I wrong? Someone please comment.

The Aromanian culture would have been a very interesting subject of study one hundred years ago, especially in Greece and Bulgaria. After the gain of the independence of 1877, various Romanian governments tried to ensure to Aromanians a cultural Roman ancestry survival.

"Bulgăroi cu ceafa groasă, grecotei cu nas subţire;
Toate mutrele acestea sunt pretinse de roman,
Toată greco-bulgărimea e nepoata lui Traian!"
(Mihai Eminescu, Scrisoarea III)

From that moment, they could not being considered totally disconnected from the Romanians. New states appeared on the Europe's map and they lived in very difficult political conditions as they were located between Yugoslavia, Bulgaria and Greece. The Aromanians have been culturally asimilated in a quiet manner after the WWII. A number of them found a refuge in Romania after the coup of 1967, but they were considered being "Greeks", as they remembered only some Aromanian (Macedo-Romanian) origin alhough they don't speak the Aromanian. --Vasile 02:57, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

(3) THe difference between the 1991 and 2001 Censuses shows some 800-900.000 people had left Romania. I don't know what this figure of 2,5 million cited by some people is about: it means nothing to me. Of those who left, many were ethnic Germans and Hungarians, also some Jewish. Those people should not be counted in this article.

(4) Ethnic Romanians, from what I know, have since 1991 not left Romania in large numbers, but they have gone to Italy and Spain as "circular migrants". This means that they are recorded as living in Romania, even thought they also have a presence in Italy and Spain. This is why it is acceptable to use only the residence permit data from southern Europe, to avoid double counting and other overcounting. Even with the permit data I put on the page, there is the possibility of doublecounting as there is no guarantee that those people are not also registered in Romania.

(5) THe big "unknown" is the number of ethnic Romanians from older migrations, and their descendants. If we have reliable data for that, then they can be integrated with the information already provided. I havent yet checked out all the links provided by Bonaparte, and may not be able to find time to do so. But that is the procedure I recommend.--Martin Baldwin-Edwards 01:26, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

good thourogh analysis, but can you answer my question Martin on the number of romanians in the world today. what estimation would you be leaning towards, when all decendents are counted? (c 01:45, 26 December 2005 (UTC))

BaNaTeaN I cannot answer your question without doing the research. It needs a lot of work, which also explains why everyone is fighting about this issue... If I have understood the reply above by the Aromanians should not be counted as ethnic Romanians these days, and so should be removed from the data supplied by Bonaparte. But even with this simplification, the calculations are not easy. I will see if I can find the time to look, though. --Martin Baldwin-Edwards 11:17, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

OK, thanks martin! i will be waiting to hear from you.

Rx strangelove, im deleting the uncertainty section on the article, because that was written, when an annonymous user stated that there were 30 million romanians in the world. As you can see at the top it says that 30 million romanians, have romanian as mother tongue. 30 million was then also written in the side bar. now that 25 million has been agreed, i am deleting that paragraph, because it is misleading people that come onto wikipedia. thanks for understanding! (BaNaTeaN 08:21, 27 December 2005 (UTC))

BaNaTeaN, I've restored that "uncertainty section", which I wrote. It was not written as a counter to any particular estimate or number which has appeared here, but rather to provide some context and background to the reader on the (lack of) precision associated with these numbers. On the contrary, I think it would be misleading not to contain such a passage- given that these numbers have been highly volatile, the otherwise bewildered reader would need to be shown from where this uncertainty derives, and details of how such numbers are arrived at, so that they can make their own judgement as to their accuracy. I believe the passage fairly goes into the detail and uncertainty behind both the "official" and "unofficial" calculations.--cjllw | TALK 01:03, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Civility

NorbertArthur and BaNaTeaN, let me remind you of the official Misplaced Pages policy on Civility and especially the "No personal attacks" part. bogdan 10:27, 26 December 2005 (UTC)

This is just to inform you that after a particularly nasty encounter with a Greek on "Greeks" I am walking away from Misplaced Pages. You can read the discussion there if you want to know why. My apologies to BaNaTeaN and others who asked for my help. --Martin Baldwin-Edwards 18:55, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm sorry Martin that you left Misplaced Pages. -- Bonaparte talk 07:21, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

I can only resonate that sentiment; I've been around for couple of years. While I find some aspects of folksonomy and open source fascinating, incidents like these make it appear truly deplorable.

I've been involved with the Mozilla project since its early days in 1998 and its progress was truly glacial, partially because of its organization, internal dynamics and quality problems. The recent popular success of FireFox goes back to the spirited action of a small group of highly gifted individuals.

Misplaced Pages reminds me in some aspects of this dynamics and although they have done a fantastic job to attract, harness and motivate scores of editors, it seems that they have a few things about retention and quality management to learn ;-)

You've mentioned that you would like to bring this incident and your concerns about certain aspects of Misplaced Pages to the attention of Jimbo Wales. I'd urge you to do so -- I believe there are some truly enlightened minds on Misplaced Pages. I could also wholeheartedly recommend User:Grace Note as a good point of contact. Best Jbetak 07:42, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Romanian diaspora negociations

Ok Romanian fellows. I think this dispute should end because this does not serve at nothing. You don't accept my figures, I don't accept yours. What you would said to put neutral true figures. For example at Canada's Romanian diaspora, we can write the official figure (131,000) and put an estimation after. For Canada I propose 131,000-400,000. 400,000 is just an estimation. At USA, we let there 367,000 Romanians, and we put an estimate of 1.2 mil, how it was before and how it is said in the Romanian diaspora sites. I'm waiting for answers! NorbertArthur 28 December 2005

Norbert, while your change to a more conciliatory tone is welcome, it is no more than what has been repeatedly called for here these past couple of months. If you wish to be taken seriously, I hope that you also explicitly undertake not to make any further uncivil and inflammatory comments, the like of which has already driven at least one valuable contributor away.

As for that 1.2mil RoAm figure, as discussed above they have explicitly included other ethnic designations in that figure- to use it alone as an estimate would be misleading- or at least a distortion of what this Romanians article defines as Romanian ethnicity. The figure and its composition is already discussed anyway in the text. And as for the "ten million Romanians in diaspora" figure, if you look at the presentation available at the US Romanian embassy site, you will see that this includes 4 million in Moldva, for starters. If any of these estimates are to be included, it needs to be explained just what it is that they are estimating- none of the various estimates from these sources put forward consist only of ethnic Romanians, and many do not distinguish between Romanian nationality and Romanian ethnicity. This article is about the latter, as Joe mentions earlier, the demographics of Romania article is for the former.--cjllw | TALK 02:07, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

There are 8-10,000,000 romanians abroad. That's all. I have given sources. This must be added to the text also. Bonaparte talk 07:08, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

Hey where did the 150,000 romanians in England come from? And sorry Rx strangelove, for not discussing the info with everyone else before deleting it. (BaNaTeaN 00:44, 30 December 2005 (UTC))

Romanians from Timoc: 500,000

http://www.lumeam.ro/nr11_2002/romanii_timoceni.html

"According to some recent researches done by vlachs (romanian) specialists from that area, it is estimated that currently this population reached 500,000 people". The Timoc valley is formed by 300 villages and 20 cities (Bor, Negotin, Kladovo, Maidanpek, Pozarevat, Zaicear, Kucevo, Zagubita, Loznita, Donji, Milanovat, Bolievat, Petrovat etc). -- Bonaparte talk 15:09, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Leave the article the way it is, stop reverting the numbers. i have just fixed up the article, so dont change the numbers again. get it through your head who ever is reverting, if u add 1 million in italy, then u have to minus 1 million from romania. And in Israel it clearly says at the bottom of the page that the figure does not include 450,000 Jews. Jmabel, if u are still around, please come back, we need your help with all this vandalism. Antidote, see if you can block the persons IP. (203.134.111.194 21:57, 7 January 2006 (UTC))

What a fuck are you to block somebody??? You dick sucker, do you not accept agaaaaain that there are 7 millions Romanians abroad, because you mind of son of bitch is to reduced to understand this thing! Fuck you whole family, idiot asshole!!!

NorbertArthur 8 January 2006

Norbert Arthur if there are 7 million romanians abroad, show me a list of the number of romanians in each country. by the way: aromanians are not romanians. (BaNaTeaN 22:41, 8 January 2006 (UTC))

Norbert Arthur, its not that i dont believe you, but untill you have a source no one is going to believe you. anyway, i was just wondering if you know the range of how many illegal romanians resided in western europe, before the working abroad phenomenen started. If you could give me a range it would help a lot. Sorry about talking bad to you a couple of weeks a go. I didnt mean it, i was a bit nervous. theres no point of us arguing, we are both romanians, we have to work together on this article. (BaNaTeaN 22:48, 8 January 2006 (UTC))

Ok Romanians fellows! I really apreciated that you're more educated than me and you don't use bad words like I did! BaNaTeaN, I don't have a source for the moment, because the websites that I look, it's always written 367,000 Romanians in USA. I understand that there are 367,000 Romanians legally there, but I cannot accept that we don't write the other Romanians ethnic (illegaly, American born or people with twice citizenship, Romanian American). At every ethnic group when I look to their diaspora, there is counted the all the people that make part of that ethnic group (ex. Poles), and bye the way, me I never counted Aromanians ro Megleno-Romanians as a part of the Romanian ethnic group.

NorbertArthur 10 January 2006

Ok thanks anyway norbert arthur. I agree with you that there are probably 1.1 million ethnic romanians in america, and around 200-300 thousand in canada. Its just that people here on wikipedia just want real sources, or a census. Norbert arthur, i live in Australia and we have recently put in the romanian channel here in Australia, and on it, it says that the romanians in america are over 1 million, and in canada are around 300,000. In Australia our community is estimated at around 40-50,000 people, but this includes greeks from romania, gypsies from romania, and hungarians from romania. Ethnic romanians in Australia are estimated at around 35,000. Norbert Arthur before the working abroad started in romania do you know how many legal romanians and illegal romanians lived in western Europe, i think the working abroad started in 2002. (BaNaTeaN 21:59, 10 January 2006 (UTC))

About what you said BaNaTeaN, I cannot say anything that you are right. In all censuses that I looked is marked the same thing. I agree with you that the big majority of Romanians in Italy or Spain are illegaly there, but why we can't write the official figures and make an estimation of the all Romanians? In Canada me I think that there are 300,000-400,000 Romanians. Anyway, here in Canada we gonna have a census this year and we gonna see the evolution of the numbers.

Regards, NorbertArthur 11 January 2006

Norbert Arthur, i agree with you. we should abe allowed to write the official figures, but if we do all the other wikipedians are going to complain because they do not believe us. We are having a census this year in australia as well, so we will see wat the number is, but anyway there are probably 40-50,000 here in australia. I have never been to canada but i have relatives there, and i heard that in canada there is around 400,000 romanians from someone here that visited Canada. These people only want census results, but they do not understand that a lot of romanians define themselves as canadians in the census. i heard of a place called kitchener. Norbert Arthur, how many romanians are there in Kitchener? regards (BaNaTeaN 23:31, 11 January 2006 (UTC))

BaNaTeaN, in Kitchener I don't know the Romanian population, because I'm living in Montreal. What I can tell you about, I know that in Montreal there are officially 60,000 Romanians and the number is estimated to be around 90,000. Here the Romanian diaspora is very recognised. We have 1 television channel, two newspapers, one daily and one weekly and one radio post. We even have a square decated to Romania with the statue of Eminescu. In Toronto I know just that there are more than in Montreal. About the cenususes, I didn't knew you gonna have a census in Australia this year. I can't wait to see it. Canada and Australia is OK, because we gonna see the evolution of the Romanian emmigration, but how about USA? Their next census will take place in 2010! I'm happy that we ended the dispute and we became friends! NorbertArthur 12 January 2006

OK, and let us hope that this civil tone continues, we shall all go much further without the distraction of traded insults. BaNaTeaN and Norbert, certainly official data such as censuses and professional migration organisations are the prime citable sources, but this is not actually to discount out of hand data from other sources, such as the RoAm organisation. All that is being asked of here is that due consideration be given as to the knowledgeability or reliability of the estimating source, and that care is taken to annotate what is actually being included or excluded in these estimates. We also need to acknowledge the imprecision of these estimates, rather than uncritically accepting any given one as "the figure". If, as has been happening, we continue to present numbers as bald fact, rather than the guesstimates they actually are, we shall be doing our readers a disservice.

Naturally enough each number needs a credible cite, annotated as appropriate if there is some doubt as to who is actually being counted, or how this count was arrived at. Not every number here is counting or estimating the same thing. I'm not saying that we uncritically accept census data either, these too need to be annotated as to what they actually represent and if there is any identifiable or known imprecision.

As things stand now, while the numbers are generally more in line with what the citations say than has been the case in some past versions, there's still a bit of work left to do to validate and correctly annotate some of these figures. The footnotes are also a little out of whack. We should firstly turn our attention to ensuring each presented number in fact has a footnote with a link to a source which actually says that number. --cjllw | TALK 23:16, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Yeah im happy that we became friends as well Norbert Arthur. I can tell you that in America there are over 1 million ethnic romanians. New york has about 200,000 romanians by itself and california has about 160,000. In Australia the most romanians live in Melbourne (14-15,000). Melbourne is the most southern european city in the world. Here in Melbourne, greeks, italians, serbs, croats, turks, and romanians outnumber the Australians and english people. Its a south eastern european city. How is Montreal? Does the romanian community in Montreal have romanian clubs and restaurants? (BaNaTeaN 03:13, 13 January 2006 (UTC))

BaNaTean, Thanks for understanding what I meant. Yes, me too I think that there are 1 million Romanians, but I didn't knew for New York, 200,000 I think is the most right figure. But do you refer at New York City or New York State? In Montreal, there are 7 romanian stores that I know and one supermarket, 4 Romanian-language schools and 6 churches (5 Orthodox, 1 Catholic) and there are just 3 Romanians restuarants, so is a very big Romanian community here. How about Melbourne? How is the Romanians community there? Churches, restaurants, stores? NorbertArthur 13 January 2006

Yeah norbert arthur in New York State there are over 200,000 romanians. The romanian community in melbourne is very good. the romanians here have 2 restaurants, a soccer club, 1 disco club in the most expensive area in melbourne, 9 churches (2 orthodox, 4 baptist, 2 pentecostal, 1 adventist) but one of the orthodox churches is right in the middle of the city, and it is considered the nicest church building in the southern hemisphere. Do you go to any church in montreal Norbert Arthur? What area/suburb of montreal has a lot of romanians? (BaNaTeaN 00:46, 14 January 2006 (UTC))

WOW, 9 churches! There're many! Here the ares with the most Romanians are usually the Anglophones bourough, wich are situated around the airport ([[Dorval, Lachine). The bourough with the most Romanians I think should be Dorval or Cote-des-Neiges, because there are the ares with the most European population. I go at the Romanian Catholic Church of Montreal (Sf. Petru), because is the nearest by me. By the way BaNaTeaN, do you have a talk page? Best wishes NorbertArthur 13 January 2006

Nah i dont have a talk page Norbert arthur. Wat part of romania are u from? Norbert Arthur i have done some research into the romanian diaspora and these are my conclusions: 1.1 million ethnic romanians in america, 350,000 in canada, 40,000 in Australia, 3 million in moldova, 500,000 ukraine, 2 million western europe (legal and illegal), 50,000 Israel (250,000 romanian jews), 19.4 million romania. according to my calculations there are over 26 million romanians in the world. Do you think this is correct? (BaNaTeaN 05:34, 14 January 2006 (UTC))

The part with Australia and Canada I think that it's ok, but probaly in USA we should put 1,2 mil. Yes the Romanians in the world I think are more than 26 mil. , probally 29-30, because Mr. Basescu declared himself that outside Romania there are 7 mil. people. In Australia and Canada is the most good calculated figures. Thanks for informations! I'm from Cluj, but I lived the most time in Oradea. You? Say hi to the Romanian diaspora there from my part. Redards, NorbertArthur 14 January 2006

Norbert Arthur i think you are correct. I have done some research and i believe that there can be 1.5 million in america. There is definetly a lot of romanians that live illegal in europe maybe 3-4 million. I will say hi to the romanians here from the romanian canadians. People on this article dont understand that the romanian diaspora is very big, because of communism, a lot of romanians left romania. During ceausescus time, romania had a population of nearly 24 million people, and out of these about 20.6 million were romanians. At that time there was also 1,000,000 romanians abroad, 800-1,000,000 in the neighbouring countries(ukriane, russia, asia minor, etc....), 3.3-5 million in Moldova. Anything above 26 million sounds right to me. Norbert Arthur say hi to the montreal romanians from me. We are having a romanian festival here in melbourne this week, it happens once a year. there should be a couple of thousand people. Do you think these figures sound right concerning the romanian diaspora. (BaNaTeaN 03:54, 15 January 2006 (UTC))

I think Yes, because if we think logically, there are 7 mil. Romanians abroad, it is impossible that in america for exmaple there are just 367,000, because if we add all the Romanian ethnic figures together, we obtain like 3-4 mil. Romanians abroad, which is to less. The Romanians in Moldova I think you know very well what are they thinking about us, Romanians. There are Romanians, but they are considering themselves Moldovans and they say that they don't even speak the Romanian language, but they are Romanians. It's cool with that fetival there! Are Romanian folkloric dances or other? BaNaTeaN, I don't know nothing for the moment about the Romanian diaspora in New Zealand and I was thinking that Australia is ,,near by New Zealand, so you know something about, like how many Romanians there are? Thanks for infos! NorbertArthur 15 January 2006

Yeah norbert arthur the romanian festuval is going to be awesome. in new zealand it is estimated that there are 3,000 romanians. Yeah moldovans dont think that they are romanian. Who cares about them then, they are idiots if they dont think they are romanian. we romanians have to stick together. Norbert Arthur do you know how many romanians live in south america? (BaNaTeaN 23:39, 15 January 2006 (UTC))

Well, what I certainly know is that in Venezuela are about 15,000 and in Argentina between 12,000-13,000 Romanians. I heard that there would be around 1,500 in Colombia, about what I have to do a research for getting more infos. The only state in South America that I think there is a sizeable Romanian minority is Brazil. I'll search to see. Another country that I also think that are Romanians is South Africa. Do you have an idea about how much they should be there? About Moldovans, I agree with you! They spit on the Romanian churl and on their history. Best wishes! NorbertArthur 16 January 2006

Norbert arthur, sorry i havent been on wikipedia for the last couple of days, i was really busy wit the romanian festival. i heard there are 10,000 romanians in south africa. Do u know how many romanians are in Brazil? how many rroma/gypsies do u think live in romania? (BaNaTeaN 10:52, 23 January 2006 (UTC))

BaNaTeaN, thank you for the informations about South Africa! I think we should add it at the list of countries with Romanian in the article, what you say? How it was the festival? In Romania the official sources say that there are around 500,000 Rroma, which i really doubt because I lived in Romania and they are at least 1 million, because there are entire suburbs with Gypsy only! In Brazil I have to do an research to be more sure. I think that they should be around 100,000-150,000. I have an another state that I saw an report at TV and they said that the Romanian diaspora there reaches 100,000 is Japan. How many Romanians you think BaNaTeaN that are living in Japan? Many regards, NorbertArthur 23 January 2006

Norbert Arthur, the festival was good. I think we should add south Africa, as for Japan i dont know, but i know a romanian from Australia that works there, so maybe there are romanians in Japan. I just did some research on the rroma/gypsies, and the E.U. estimates that there are between 1-1.5 million rroma in romania. How many do you think there are in Romania? (203.134.111.194 22:54, 23 January 2006 (UTC))

norbert arthur are you still on wikipedia?

http://www.aboutromania.com/roworld.html it is an excellent site guys, enjoy!

Frivolous rename ?

I've moved back the article to the original title. I've not seen any discussion or consensus to rename it. --_Lysy 21:32, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

I hope not many other people consider a title change from "Romanians" to "Romanian people" to be frivolous. I now accept that favoring the adjectival plural over a "XXX people" template for such titles is preferred. David Kernow 23:48, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

I apologize for having used the word "frivolous" which currently seems inappropriate to me. --_Lysy 02:00, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

The Ahistorical Sense of the term "Romanian" and of the Ethnicity

This article states that "The concept of who is a Romanian has varied. Until the 19th century, it denoted the speakers of Romanian, and was a much more distinct concept than that of Romania, the country of the Romanians," despite the fact that the "Romanian" apellation is a distinctly modern one that is not much older than the 19th century. In the pan-Romanian nationalism of the 1800's and early 1900's, the term was applied retroactively to what had previously been called either Wallachians, Moldovans, or Transylvania Vlachs; previously, the identity of the Romanian-speaking people was tied more to their political configuration than to their shared linguistic heritage, and the Daco-Roman continuity was not claimed until later scholarship by historians participating in the national project, beginning with the Scoala Ardeleana (Transylvanian School of historians from the late 18th c) who first came up with the thesis that Vlachs were descended from Roman colonists. As in the rest of Europe, ethnic identity did not really enter the consciousness of Vlachs until the 19th century, nor did the Latinized name "Romanian" gain a footing with the Latinate speakers of present-day Romania until the Scoala Ardeleana created it and the later Romanian state promoted it. Until then, at most the Romanian-speakers of the different territories were identified linguistically as Vlachs, politically as something else (W, M, T), and ethnically not at all. It is really quite ahistorical to refer to pre-19th c. "Romanians" as Romanians. Andreidude 08:38, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

The map

Ok, so we`ve all finally reached a conclusion. Indeed, it`s uselessness isa clear, it`s pseudo-scientific, subjective, and pathetic. For the one who made it and insist in wasting my bandwidht, three words: Quality, not quantity!. Removed. Greier 17:51, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Romanians in Canada

NorbertArthur, can you please say where you are getting your figures of over a million, and 400,000 from? The census disagrees. Jayjg 21:25, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Jayjg, one of the sources which Norbert and others have been relying on (although they seem reluctant somehow to actually cite it) is the RoMedia commercial site- a network of media outlets in the US which broadcast Romanian materials. It is from here that he gets the 400k figure for Canada, and the 1.5mil total for Nth Am. However, as has already been discussed above, the reliability of this estimate is quite doubtful- the only source RoMedia gives for these figures is Ethnologue, and firstly they are only concerned with languages, not ethnicities, and secondly the Ethnologue 2005 figures for Romanian language estimate only 23.5mil only total for all countries. As a media organisation, it might be expected that potential audience figures are - shall we say, maximised for attracting advertisers (the actual purpose of that RoMedia page).

With these changes and additions to estimates continuing now for more than six months in this article, I think that we need to make more explicit the requirement that any and every change or addition of a number must be accompanied by a direct source citation, or else it may be reverted on sight.--cjllw | TALK 03:10, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Moreover, given the overwhelmingly accurate nature of the Canadian census, outlandish figures from biased sources (such as the RoMedia commercial site) should be immediately dismissed as inherently unreliable, and contrary to our reliable sources policy. Jayjg 17:18, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Related ethnic groups

How do French, Italians, Portugese, and Spaniards relate to Romanians on an ethnical level? --Candide, or Optimism 18:28, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Well, I think is because there are all Latin peoples, have Latins origins and Romance languages are spoken by all these ethnic groups. NorbertArthur 31 March 2006

Eastern Romance peoples ("Vlachs", an odd term), French, Italians, etc are all branches of Latin peoples. So they are all related groups. Ronline ✉ 10:46, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

They are not ethnically related. Are they? If so, how? --Candide, or Optimism 16:01, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Romanians are closer ethnically (traditions, customs, etc) to the Bulgarians and Serbians than to the French. bogdan 16:11, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

And to the Hungarians and Ukrainians, and other people that we might have mixed with. Someone should remove that part. --Candide, or Optimism 16:27, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

No, they shouldn't. Romanians are ethnically more similar to other Latin peoples, based on common origin from Romans (OK, this hypothesis is to an extent controversial). Customs are a quite superficial thing when considering ethnicity. Greeks have similar customs to Macedonian (Slavs), but that does not mean that they are related ethnic groups at all. When looking at ethnicity, we're looking at origin. And if we trace history back, Romanians and Spanish and Portuguese were once part of the same ethnic group (the Romans). Of course, a lot of this is abstract and theoretical. If we look at gene pools, it is true that Romanian genes are probably closer to Bulgarian and other Southeastern European peoples than, say, Walloons or Romansh Swiss. Then again, many Finns have similar genes to Russians and to an extent to Swedes. That doesn't make any of those three groups "related ethnically". Ronline ✉ 07:49, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

What Romans? Our origin is from the natives of the Balkans. And even if we did share a Roman ancestry, so do the Brits and other people. That doesn't mean that we share their ethnicity. It is wrong to say that we share ethnicity with those people and it should be removed. --Candide, or Optimism 16:26, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

The Romanians are a mix of Dacians and Romans, are they not? At least the concept of "Romanian" was formed as a result of the fusion of those two peoples. Now, South Slavs, the groups you allege we're related to, are Slavic. Majoritarily Slavic people who mixed in with the local proto-Balkan people (including the Dacians). So there is a degree of shared heritage, but very little overlap. On the other hand, the other Latin peoples are also descended from the Romans (and mixed in with their respective populations). No, it doesn't mean we share their ethnicity. It means that they're the closest people to us on an ethnic level (not a cultural level, though we are quite close to other Latin people culturally). But Romanians are a Latin people, that is by far the majority viewpoint. Ronline ✉ 06:46, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Important paragraph was deleted

The Romanians, (Romanian: români), or the Romanian people, are a nation in the meaning an ethnos (in romanian: popor), defined more by a sense of sharing a common Romanian culture and having a Romanian mother tongue, than by citizenship or by being subjects to any particular country.

The concept of who is a Romanian has varied. Until the 19th century, it denoted the speakers of Romanian, and was a much more distinct concept than that of Romania, the land of the Romanians. In the last two centuries, Romanian and Romania have more and more come to be connected with a succession of Romanian states -- but the borders of those states have fluctuated so widely during that time that the language-based definition of Romanianess remains perhaps the most useful. While there are approximately 40 million native Romanian speakers in the world, only about 35 million considers themselves to be Romanian.

It duplicated (and often contradicted) other material in the article, and was completely unsourced. How often must it be explained to you that you need reliable sources for your insertions? Jayjg 19:07, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Ethnic Romanians

The term Ethnic Romanians may be used in several ways. It may serve to distinguish Romanian citizens of "foreign" immigrant heritage, or it may indicate members of the Romanian culture living as minorities in other nations. In English usage, but less often in Romanian, Ethnic Romanians may be used for assimilated descendents of Romanian emmigrants. A today more controversial usage of the term Ethnic Romanians refer to people with Romanian mother tongue and culture but citizens of other countries than the Romania, as for instance Moldova.

Ethnic Romanianss form an important minority group in several countries in central and eastern Europe (Poland, Hungary, Romania) as well as in Spain and in southern Brazil....

For different reasons, some groups may be noted as "Ethnic Romanians" despite no longer having Romanian mothertongue or a distinct Romanian culture. Until the 1990s two million Ethnic Romanians lived throughout the former Soviet Union, especially in Russia and Kazakhstan. In the United States 1990 census, 3 million people are fully or partly of Romanian ancestry, forming one of the largest single ethnic group in the country. Most Americans of Romanian descent live in the Mid-Atlantic states (especially Pennsylvania) and the northern Midwest (especially in Iowa, Minnesota, Ohio, Wisconsin, Illinois, North Dakota, South Dakota, and eastern Missouri.)

Look, there's absolutely no way that in The world are just 23 mill. Romanians, just in Romanian 22, in Moldova 2, in America de Nord 1,5 mil., in Italy 1 mill and in Spain 1.5, and also in France 0.5 mill.

Just please tell you (Jayig) waht you want anymore???? To destroy this article or what? We gave you the sources, I tried to explain you, but you don't wanna understand. You and that ******* admin of SlimVirgin are both complaininng together against this article.

And I want as all the users know, I was block by the administrator SlimVirgin becasue i reverted the supid lies of Jayig and because it's a vandalism editing what Mr. jayig wrote. NorbertArthur 2 April 2006

WE have to do something, these to users (==Jayig and SlimVirgin==) will destroy the article, they put lowest figure than the most negative estimations. I invite you all to start procedures against them. NorbertArthur 2 April 2006

First of all, you need to stop violating WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA. Next, you need to find reliable sources for your claims. It's quite simple; a government census is a reliable source. An off the cuff comment by an Italian Prime Minister is not, and you can't keep making up higher numbers than government censuses simply because you like higher numbers. Abide by policy, or you will find that "procedures" will most likely have to started with you instead. Jayjg 19:06, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Aha, now you try to do the innocent guy, that it no? If you want as all knows, you or SlimVirgin deleted the external lniks were we had the proofs of that figures. can you explain that please?

NorbertArthur 2 April 2006

Sorry, I can't explain your actions; they completely violate policy. You don't have any reliable sources for any of your claims, and you delete information that you don't like that actually comes from reliable sources. Census information is reliable; speeches by Italian prime ministers are not. Jayjg 19:33, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

What I am seeing is that people on all sides seem to be cherry-picking which numbers to look at. Jayjg is entirely correct in what he is saying about Norbert's behavior, but we've also (for example) now got a citation that would justify an estimate of about 800,000 Romanians in the U.S. as the (only) citation for the official census number of 367,000.

I've said this before and I'll say it again: uncited numbers should only be used where no decent cited numbers are available, and we should be very ready to get rid of them. And where reliable sources contradict each other, we should report all of them, at least in footnotes.

Also: it is virtually certain that Romanians in diaspora are undercounted in official censuses, so those should not be the only numbers reported. Certainly, for example, the U.S. census notoriously undercounts virtually all European ethnicities. Similarly, given that, by all accounts, large numbers of Romanians are illegally in Spain and Italy, official numbers for those countries are almost certainly low. But, conversely, if half a million or a million Romanians are illegally in Italy, that doesn't magically add to the total number of ethnic Romanians in the world: it just means that half a million or a million Romanians are in Italy rather than in Romania. - Jmabel | Talk 19:44, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Just to put the notes near the numbers in the wikisource, I am about to make a "strictly mechanical" edit switching over to the cite.php approach. I'd appreciate it if no one else edits while I do this. - Jmabel | Talk 19:46, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Done. - Jmabel | Talk 20:07, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Just shut up! What I deleted??? You're head maybe? I have a lot of reliable sources but if I will give it to you, you'll say surely that :this isn't a reliable sources for our policy. Now you say that I delete things because you have nothing to say in your defense.

I agree with you that census date are reliable sources, but we gave you a lot of other websites that confirms our estimations. Look, in not you the boss here, ok? Jmabel: you are putting your long nose in all the romanian topics. But did you forget something? You're not a romanian. You lived a couple of months there and magically you know all about that country, people, language, diaspora... And what's you're problem about my behavior? Did know to read at least what this stupid Jayig id? You're writing things without using you're brain. His partner, user:SlimVirgin blocked me because I dared to revert what Jayig wrote. OOoooo, that was so a fair procedures, no??? NorbertArthur 2 April 2006

I consider that tone entirely inappropriate, and I will not engage with this. I have gone over to WP:AN/I and asked that NorbertArthur be blocked by an uninvolved party. I have also asked that if they see anything wrong with my conduct, they should say so. - Jmabel | Talk 20:19, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

References

As remarked above, I went through the references to switch over to cite.php. There are some issues here, some of them probably the result of edit wars:

1. In the infobox, for France, it says "", but these are just floating superscripts unattached to anything.
2. There were four footnotes to which there were no references. I have left them, commented out, in the notes section. I suspect that there is useful information in these orphaned notes.
3. The footnote for Israel is an (accurate) remark, but not a citation. That number is essentially uncited.
4. Several of the numbers lack citations, or have citations that would be difficult to verify. The footnote for Bulgaria simply leads to a website for the entire Bulgarian census, in Bulgarian. I don't doubt a number is in there someplace, but needless to say it would be extremely difficult for anyone not literate in Bulgarian to find. I don't imagine that very many contributors to this article can read that language. A link to a particular page would be trememdously more useful. Similarly, there are citations that just say "2002 Russian census" or "1999 Kazakhstan census". I realize that is par for the course, but given that these numbers are obviously controversial we should probably try to do better.
5. As I remarked above, there may be an overreliance on official census figures, which are probably overcounts for Romania and Moldova, and undercounts almost everywhere else.

Jmabel | Talk 20:33, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

After I wrote the above, NorbertArthur changed the U.S. population to a range with an upper end of 1,200,000. He referenced that to http://www.romanii.ro/romanii%20din%20diaspora/index%20diaspora.htm. I have physically cleaned up the reference (this link was already there in a footnote for several other countries). I see nothing in that article that bears out this number.

Here's what it does say:

Conform datelor statistice ale recensamintelor din S.U.A., aproape 400 000 de cetateni americani se declara de origine romana, plasand comunitatea romana pe locul al 20-lea, ca marime, in randul celor 71 de grupuri etnice de origine europeana recunoscute oficial. Numarul romanilor care traiesc in S.U.A. este, insa, mult mai mare, tinand seama de faptul ca multi dintre ei nu isi declara originea, fluxul de imigrari continua, iar multi dintre cei stabiliti in S.U.A. nu au dobandit cetatenia americana.

In other words,

1. The article says that, according to the census, about 400,000 American citizens declare Romanian origin, making Romanians the 20th in size amont 71 officially recognized ethnic groups of European origin.
2. The article says that the actual number Romanians is probably much higher because (1) many don't declare an origin, (2) the flow of immigration continues, and (3) many have settled in the U.S. but not become citizens.

In my view this is basically right, but not entirely accurate: the census number is 367,000, not "about 400,000." I would agree that the number is an undercount, and I would agree that immigration continues, but the U.S. census is a census of residents, not a census of citizens, so the fact that people have settled in the U.S. and not become citizens is irrelevant. But even without my caveats, there is no way that constitutes a citable estimate of 1.2 million. All it says is that 400,000 is low.

If there is something relevant in that article that I am missing, would someone please point it out?

The one place I have seen the figure of 1.2 million is http://ro-am.net/index.php?page=ro-am-communities#Anchor-1.1-49482, which is linked toward the end of the population section and was discussed above (about halfway through the section #Romanian numbers). Since that 1.2 million explicitly includes 20,000-25,000 ethnic Armenians, 50,000-60,000 Germans (some in Canada), 10,000-15,000 Roma, 15,000-20,000 Hungarians, 200,000-225,000 Romanian Jews (some in Canada; note that very large number), and 10,000 Bukovina Ukrainians, it clearly cannot be interpreted as meaning 1.2 million ethnic Romanians in the U.S.; it suggests about 900,000. - Jmabel | Talk 02:20, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

well, Jmabel, you're right in your side, but the estimations varies form a site to the other. For example there's no way that the number Romanian-Jew in USA to be so high, because even in Romania Jews were not so populous.

NorbertArthur 3 April 2006

The 1.2 million footnote on United States leads nowhere right now. As for the number of Romanian Jews, in 1933 there were almost 1 million . Now, can we have some more reliable figures for Romanians in the United States please? Jayjg 02:50, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Hey someone changed the number of romanians from 24-26 million to 23-24 million. i am reverting the number back to 24-26 million, because there was no explanation in the talk page why that occured. For starters jayjig, i have never seen you on this article before, so please dont just come here and point the finger that this article is not in good condition. I think that by now most of us that take care of this article have realised that there are not 1.2 million romanians in america, or 1 million in italy, or even 800,000 in spain, as these are citizens from romania. However, as i can be seen in the article evenimentul zillelei, at the bottom of the romania page, according to a thorough analaysis, there were a minimum of 600,000 illegal romanians in western europe, before the working abroad phenomenen happened in romania in 2002. Jmabel, a trustworthy wikipedian stated that there is a source which shows around 800,000 romanians in america. Keeping in mind that the census was conducted in 2002, and there were a minimum of 600,000 illegals abroad, the number of romanians in the diaspora would stand at around 1 million in America+Canada, 2,827,000 in moldova, 172,000 in Russia, 400,000 in Ukraine, 400,000 legal romanians in western europe(germany,france,austria,spain etc...), and 200,000 elsewhere in the world including Australia, south america, israel, south africa, etc.... As a minimum the 24-26 million should stand on the front page of the article, as there are estimates of romanian organisations that depict a diaspora of 8-10 million.

Furthermore, in the main article someone has changed the romanian mothertongue from 25 million, to possibly 25 million. Basically, i dont know why people keep changing figures, once we have already agreed on a figure, and it has stayed on the main page for months. Before 1990, there were 23.5 million people in Romania, and even though not all of them were ethnic romanians, all of them needed to have a basic undertstanding of romanian, because all of the schools in romania taught in romanian (these were Ceausescus laws). The 25 million was a figure that was agreed on, and it isn't a figure that i personally agree with. Even, Jmabel said that he can see 26.5 million bilingual romanian speakers, but we all agreed on 25 million, so in the future please report any changes that you want to make on the talk page first, and if it is agreed on in here, than you have the green light to make the changes. From now on, if anyone makes changes without consulting the talk page first, i will personally make a complaint to the admin, and further actions will be taken by the admin with the user at fault. (BaNaTeaN 05:35, 3 April 2006 (UTC))

On the front page

I am really puzzled as to why there is so much controversy over this article:

• What is the principle behind trying to prove there are more Romanians abroad than there really are? I really don't see why a lot of Romanians get worked up and happy over how there are "1 million of us in Spain". If anything, that's a negative trend.
• http://www.romanii.ro is a notoriously POV source. It is the site of the FNRP, which is a nationalist NGO that basically is pro-union with Moldova, supports a Greater Romania that includes Chernivtsi and the like, supports Eastern Orthodoxy as the sacred religion of Romanians (to the exclusion of other faiths), opposed the repeal of the notorious Article 200 (and actually list that on their website as one of their "pro-Romanian" achievements), etc. In short, it is natural for them to exaggerate numbers.
• I find the notion of census undercounting quite illogical. If a person doesn't declare an ancestry, I find it very odd to just allocate that person to a given ancestry. I also find it odd when people declare ancestry to then say "oh no, but you're actually Romanian". That is all we're doing by saying there are 1.2 million Romanians instead of 400,000. Ethnicity can best be defined in terms of self-identification. And if people don't self identify as a given ethnicity, then we can't allocate them to anything else but what they declare. Of course, in the case of illegal immigrants it is different, since they're not counted at all but actually live on the territory of that respective country.
• The figure of 24-26 million is an OK figure and seems like a reasonable estimate.

Thanks, Ronline ✉ 06:58, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Ronline thanks for your input on the 24-26 million figure of romanians. i believe the figure is 26 million at least, and ill tell you why. Ronline you say that romanians in america are only 367,000 (according to 2000 census). That would mean that romanians only increased in America by 1600 people since the 1990 census. However since 1992 evidence shows that 800,000 romanian nationals moved abroad. You now combine that with the figure of 700,000 that left during ceausescus communist period, you arrive at a figure of around 1.5 million. I hardly doubt that 100% of the romanian nationals moved to europe. I have to dissagree with a lot of wikipedians that state what you have stated about romanians only being 367,000 in America. Basically for the fact that romanian-american network wouldnt have stated a figur 4 times as big if there wasnt sufficient research done. However i agree that the 1.2 million figure is overestimated, but a figure around 800,000 looks plausible to me. i cant see the romanian diaspora under 5.8 million. 3 million Moldova, 400,000 Ukraine, 200,000 russia and kazahkstan, 1 million north america, 1 million western europe, 200,000 elsewhere (serbia, australia, israel, etc...) (BaNaTeaN 08:28, 3 April 2006 (UTC))

Ronline please stop reverting the italian and spanish figures. If you want to add those figures, than the romanians in romania figure must drop, because obviously the people are coming from somewhere. Those estimations must not be used, since romanians work abroad on schengen rules, immplying that numbers of romanians abroad are not the same all the time. In january they could be 250,000 in taly, and in March they could be 220,000 in Italy. So pleae leave the numbers the way they are, and if you want to change something, please discuss it in the talk page, thanks. (BaNaTeaN 10:13, 3 April 2006 (UTC))

Guys (Jayig and Jmabel,for not showing that we are right, you're giving all sorts of arguments and you're saying that these are not at all the true figures, well, me I think that there are really 1.5 mill. Romanians in North America. Please read my reasons:

-how BanaTean said, since the 1990 U>S census, the number increased by about 2000 people. That means since the fall of the Communism in Romania, when the Romanians got the right to get out of the country, just 2000 left for U.S.A. This is totally out of sense. I mean, more Romanians got out from Romania when it was forbiden than when the democracy came. -somebody cited that there are a lot Romanians working abroad in Europe. But, I understand that they are still Romanian citizens, but they are not living in Romania anymore', so they should be counted as inhabitants of that country, of Romanian origin; -Jmabel said that the Romanian diapora of U.S.A is composed by a lot of other origins, but here it seems we have a little problem. If we take for example the Saxons, their origins are German, but in United States if we don't count them on the Romanian Community, they will neither counted on the German Community of U.S.A, so they have ot be counted somewhere, and I think that the Romanian Community is the most appropiate, since they're born in Romania. NorbertArthur 3 April 2006

Not at all. The chance that a Transylvanian Saxon (or a Transylvanian Magyar) living in the U.S. would identify as "Romanian" is near nil. Heck, the chance that a Transylvanian Saxon (or a Transylvanian Magyar) living in Romania would identify as "Romanian" in any sense other than citizenship is rather small. - Jmabel | Talk 05:52, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Jmabel, what did u mean when you said that there is probably an over count of romanians in romania and in moldova. I cant see there being an overcount, because as far as i know hungarians are very proud of their origins and wont tick romanian on the census box and neither would the germans. How is it possible that there can be an overcount? also are you a romanian jew? (BaNaTeaN 11:28, 5 April 2006 (UTC))

Ok, let's see something. And will especially ask this to Jmabel. The kind of "estmation"- because is is not at all the verity - says that in the 1.2 Romanian community in U.S.A there are 200,000-225,000 Romanian Jews, but please tell how it can be so many if they were not as many as that even in Romania. I mean if we count also the 450,000 Romanian Jews from Israel + 220,000 of U.S.A, there a figure about 700,000. It is sure 100% that there were never 700,000 Jews in Romania. If the same thing is applied also for the Romanian Magyars or Romanian-Germans? By the way, in that estimation says that there are about 20,000 Romanian-Armenian who went in U.S.A, which is totally out of proportion.

NorbertArthur 5 Aprilie 2006

On Romanian census overcount of ethnic Romanians: I agree that it is not the Hungarians who would call themselves "Romanian" to the Romanian census taker, but I personally know Jews who would, and I'd guess confidently that a lot of Roma would, especially those who are at all assimilationist. Probably some Slavs would do the same, though I'm less certain of that.

On my own ethnicity: I'm a Jew, but not a Romanian Jew. I have a relative by marriage (married to a third cousin or so) whose parents were from Podul Turcului; as far as I know, that is the only person in my family whose ancestry passes through Romania.

On the number of Jews, first, remember, the number isn't mine, it's the number in the source we are citing. That source is clearly trying to add up numbers and show a large potential audience for Romanian-language programming, so it is the kind of source that, at best, provides an upper bound. The number may well be a stretch (as may be their other numbers). After all, high numbers would serve their marketing purpose. If they have overcounted Romanian Jews in the U.S., and you seem to feel they have overcounted Armenians as well, why would you think they have undercounted ethnic Romanians? It doesn't seem likely that this study would have accidentally classified Romanian Gentiles as Romanian Jews; it does seem plausible that they conjured a phantom population of Romanian Jews (and that it is sheer wishful thinking on their part that any large number of those Romanian-descended Jews know much Romanian).

This UK Jewish site says, "Romania had the greatest post-war population of Jews in Europe. Out of a population of almost 800,000 Jews before the war , 350,000 survived the Nazi inflagration," and estimates that 300,000 Romanian Jews were "sold" by Ceauşescu (some probably by Gheorgiu-Dej, though they don't mention that) to Israel, meaning that Israel paid for them to be allowed to emigrate there. If 300,000 emigrated to Israel roughly a generation ago, and some presumably arrived there by other routes, then 450,000 is—just—plausible, but, again, if the Romanian Jews in Israel are being overcounted that is no major reason to think the Romanian Gentiles in Israel are being undercounted. I suppose some of them may falsely tell the Israeli census takers they are ethnic Jews, just like Jews in Romania would lie in the opposite direction.

According to the Jewish Encyclopedia (1900-1906) there were 269,015 Jews in the Old Kingdom of Romania in 1900. (That excessive precision suggests a census number, but I don't know for sure.) They say there were another 50,000 in Chişinau. They don't say how many were elsewhere in Bessarabia, but, let's take a very conservative estimate of 25,000 (half as many in all the rest of Bessarabia as were in Chişinau). That would be a total of about 344,000, and doesn't count Transylvania at all. Also, while I don't have a number to cite, by that time there were certainly at least 10,000 Romanian Jews among the 1,500,000 Jews at that time in the United States. So by a consistently conservative set of estimates we get 354,000 at that time.

With reference to the estimate of 10,000 in the U.S. at that time, (which should be reliable, its citations look careful and the author's credentials look solid), says " the first mass immigration of Romanian Jews to America (about 40,000) took place between 1880 and 1910." - Jmabel | Talk 00:13, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, since Romania had 800,000 Jews, I agree that a part of them emmigrated to USA, but I don't agree at all that 220,000-225,000 are Romanian-Jews, because is a too large figure. I would say that about 15-20,000 were Romanian Jews. I mean the 450,000 were in Israel, and also a lot of them are in Western Europe. What you think if we add at the figures table in the article at Israel 4500,000 Romanian-Jews there? i think it's a good idea since they are born in Romania. But I don't understand a thing: of 800,000 Romanian-Jews, today there are only 6,000 of them in Romania. It can be possible that 97% have emmigrated?

NorbertArthur 9 April 2006

It is certainly the case that nearly all Romanian Jews have emigrated. I suspect that the official 6,000 remaining is an underestimate, for reasons given above, but I'd bet that the real number is still no more than 15,000. In terms of the post-WWII exodus to Israel, we touch on this at History of the Jews in Romania#Post-War (which should really be fleshed out) and in Moses Rosen, of whom we say:

He also wrote proudly of the fact the Jews who had left Romania had overwhelmingly made aliyah to Israel: "More than 90 per cent of the Romanian Jews reached Lod. They did not 'lose their way' heading for other continents..."

The quote is from "The Recipe", 1987 (with a post-1989 postscript), published as epilogue to Michael Riff, The Face of Survival: Jewish Life in Eastern Europe Past and Present, Valentine Mitchell, London, 1992, 215-222, ISBN 0853032203.

We should probably have a lot more on this, but this article is not the place for it

I don't think the number of Romanian-born Jews is ultimately relevant to this article, since this is an article on Romanians in the ethnic sense, and they would not be considered ethnically Romanian even if they were living in Romania. The only relevance was why our source's number of 1.2 million should not be taken at face value. Insofar as it matters, yes, I suspect 220,000-225,000 Romanian Jews in North America is too high. 15-20,000 is certainly too low: as noted above about 40,000 immigrated in one period of 30 years, and while their population may not have exploded over time, there is no reason to think it shriveled, either. -- Jmabel | Talk 05:12, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Here in Spain there are 1,100,000 romanians

Here in Spain there are 1,100,000 romanians, only in Seville there are 30% romanians. Romanians can even vote here.

I agree that there are around 35 millions romanians in the world. There are more than 1,500,000 romanians in US. 84.77.241.69 21:33, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree me too that in Spain there surely over 1.000.000 + Romanians and more than 1.2-1.3 mil. in U.S.A, but in the world me I would say that there around 32-33 mil. Romanians. The only thing we have to do is to find more proves than we gave before to show to the people here that our afirmations are true.

NorbertArthur 5 April 2006

Negotiations

Guys, I got a good idea. Instead quarelling here without sense, let's fit something. I would say to write official figures of the censuses, gov. websites..., and write after the etimations, how it was before. i think is the best solution, because everybody sustain his point of view. I mean it will be a neutral way fot this article. Just an example: for U.S.A, we leave there the off. 367,000 and we add the estimation, in concordance with our cited sources. I already found a lot of them. Surely we will fit the numbers for each country. What do you say abput this?

NorbertArthur 11 April 2006

I think it's a good idea. We have to have also the estimations along the official data. Traian Basescu said that there are 35 millions romanians in the world. How many romanians there are in the world? Many estimations admit to have more than 30 millions. It may be 35 millions as well as 33 millions. I would rather accept the biggest estimations. Romania 19:40, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

yes, me too I think the same, but we must wait till the others will accept it. In my point of view, there are more than 32 mil. I have a couple of websites if anyone want them.

NorbertArthur 12 Aprilie 2006

Can someone show me the citation about "35 million"? I have to say, I'm very skeptical, especially if that the meaning is ethnic Romanians. -- Jmabel | Talk 05:14, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

It's very easy: you can make the sum of all the romanians abroad. It's pretty much sure that you'll get the sum. --Iasi 05:59, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Norbert. Bravo Norbert! Romanian 21:11, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Guys, about all this, I forgot something very important: the sources! I know it's my fault, but... Now, anyone who wants sources about what we sustain (U.S.A 1.200.000+, Italy 1,000,000+, Spain 1,000,000+, France 300,000+ and Canada 300,000+), just tell my and I will be pleasured to give it.

NorbertArthur 13 Aprilie 2006

Norbert, you've been around here long enough to know that explicit provision of sources is precisely what is required before changing or adding any number in this peculiarly contentious article. It's quite simple - anyone wishing to add or change a number (particularly where they have been much debated) ought to present it here on the talk page first, accompanied by checkable sources; otherwise, uncited changes will be (quite validly) reverted on sight. For those that you mention above, we already cover the 1.2M est for the US in the body of the article, and we're all well acquainted now with the Ro Am and RoMedia sources - as well as their deficiencies. I'd recommend a re-read of User:Ronline's wise counsel a little further above, before embarking upon yet another round of plucking numbers from the aether.

BTW, the tag-team chorus of support from Romanian and Iasi above is a little unconvincing- if I didn't know better I'd reckon that our indefinitely-blocked comrade Bonaparte is walking among us once more...--cjllw | TALK 06:36, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

cjllw, I agree what you said that we need surces. We, I mean who is familiar with the truth of Romanian Diaspora abroad, we don't need surces to convince ourselves if this is the truth, but if somebody who doesn't really knows what is the Romanian Diaspora, it's sure that we need to show surces. It's exactly for that I created this section, to negotiate what to put there. Me I'm perfectly agreeing the census numbers, but those aren't accurate at all. I want to say that is not honest to put a figure which is much smaller than the tru one. I accept what you said, but we need estimations, that the most agreable point that me I found. Official figures and estimations.

NorbertArthur 14 April 2006

OK, I am usually never on the side of Khiotkoi or whatever but this time I have no other choice. There is no way that in Bulgaria there are over 500.000 Romanians and in some countries too the numbers have been inflated like the range of people in Ukraine. Why does it read 409.000 to 459.000? THe 459.000 figure is a figure that was taken at the previous census almost 20 years ago and 409.000 at the last census in 2001, so please let's try to stick with official data as much as possible. Also for the 1 mil Romanians in Italy and Spain, don't forget that that these people are seasoned-workers (they presently work in Spain and Italy but they still reside in Romania) which have already been counted in the 2001 Romanian census so let's try not to do any double counting.

Also have you considered that Ethnologue estimates the number of Romanian speakers at 23.5 million and yes they do count Moldovans as Romanians. How can it be that they are about 16.5 million people off?Constantzeanu 06:33, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Romanians abroad.

An interesting piece about Romanians abroad is published in "Le Monde", the most important French newspaper. It gives estimates for the number of Romanians living abroad. The data must be taken with caution, for most of these people still hold Romanian citizenship (and therefore are already counted in the Romanian census). The link is http://www.lemonde.fr/web/article/0,1-0@2-3214,36-762892,0.html . I suggest you make copies of it, for Le Monde gives free access only for a limited time (after which you must pay for it). User:Dpotop

I protest

I protest for having Dracula included in the photos that represent the Romanian people. After reading two books about him, plus the book about Stefan by Iorga, I can say that he was evil, even for the standard of that day. I would like to have him removed. We could replace him with Mircea or Cantemir. In addition to this, of all the four personas that represent the Ro people, no-one is from Moldavia. This is totally unacceptable. --Candide, or Optimism 01:03, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

I support Anittas in his request to include a Moldovan. I believe that he exagerates, however, when considering Tepes evil. It's just that he is unrepresentative of Romanians, as perceived by themselves. I would suggest:

1. Eminescu -- cannot be omitted (whatever you say, it's what most Romanians identify with). Both literary and political figure.
2. Brancusi/Grigorescu/Enescu -- arts.
3. Babes/Coanda -- science.
4. Mihai Viteazul or Brancoveanu or Stefan cel Mare -- Medieval figure. Dpotop 01:30, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Adding a Moldovan would be controversial. There is nowhere in the Moldovans page that it says "Moldovans = Romanians" for one thing. I just have a hunch that it would start an edit war. —Khoikhoi 02:08, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

He meant to say Moldavians. One-forth of the Romanians are Moldavians (me included); in addition to this, Romania was created by Moldavia. About 25-percent of the Romanian territory compromises Moldavian land. See Alexandru Ioan Cuza. Yes, I know it's ironic, considering those weirdos across Prut. But don't worry: we won't add any of their people. Even if we wanted to, we couldn't. They have nothing. --Candide, or Optimism 02:18, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Ahhhh, of course then! :) I've made the pictures on the Pashtun, Scottish, Tajik, Berber, Assyrian, and Azerbaijani people pages, so if no one else wants to do the image, I'd be happy to. —Khoikhoi 02:42, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Sure, you could create the photo, but first, we need to decide on what personas we should include in the new photo. I propose we include six Romanians: two Moldavians, two Wallachians, and two Ardelenians (Transylvanians). <off topic> --Candide, or Optimism 05:44, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

<off topic>

Stop please. This is a gross breach of the WP:NPA on both sides. Ronline ✉ 08:47, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Judecand dupa cele spuse, ii dau dreptate lui Candide in majoritatea afirmatiilor. Alegerea-mi pare sustinuta chiar de tine, NorbertArthur. Ai avut niste argumente penibile...Nu numai ca nu relationau cu subiectul, dar erau si false... Mai mult nu am nimic de zis. Nu ma bag in discutia voastra.... Greier 10:36, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

I have nothing against inserting 2 Transylvanian, 2 Moldavian and 2 Wallachian personalities, but I think we're getting into a bit of Belgian (or Bosnian) style compromise here. Remember that Romania is not a federal state and that the divisions between Moldavia, Wallachia and Transylvania no longer exist, at least officially. However, there are increasing refereces - mainly from Anittas - about how Romania is made up Transylvania, Moldavia and Wallachia, as if these were rivalling regions that need to come to a compromise that can only be achieved by quotas. Ideally, the six most famous Romanians should be chosen, no matter what region they came from. I don't know why you're making such a big deal of dividing Romania into these three regions. I suppose at the moment this proposal will work, though. I think the following people should be included:

Eminescu (Moldavian)

Brâncuşi (Wallachian)

Coandă (Wallachian)

Babeş (Transylvanian)

Enescu (Moldavian)

Mihai Viteazul (symbol of unity between the regions, originally Wallachian)

Ronline ✉ 13:06, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

The list looks satisfactory, tho we could replace Eminescu with someone else. I don't know who, to. --Candide, or Optimism 15:59, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Eminescu should remain. About the others I say Mihai Viteazul is ok. I don't know Eliade, Brancusi? Maybe someone from the modern Romania?

--Andrei George 16:13, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

<off topic>

Mai Anittas si NorbertArthur, voi nu sunteti intregi la cap? Eu credeam ca e o gluma, dar voi o luati in serios cu argumente de doi bani:

Arthur

1. Las-o moale cu istoria, moldovenii si muntenii si-au pastrat intr-adevar organizarea politica, in timp ce ardelenii si-au pierdut-o complet. Pana si religia s-a dus, si numai prostia ungurilor a facut ca mai sunt romani in Ardeal. Acuma, Transilvania e multi-culturala, ceea ce multi apreciaza, insa nu e meritul romanilor transilvaneni. Cum s-ar spune in franceza, "ils n'ont pas agi, ils ont subi". Si sa nu incep sa imi aduc aminte de "buna intelegere" de la Targu Mures si alte locuri memorabile in care "multiculturalismul" despre care vorbesti s-a dovedit in mare parte o vorba goala. Cand romanasii au putut, i-au caftit pe unguri cum au putut. La fel si ungurii pe romani.
2. Poti sa te lauzi cu economia. Desi Ronline ti-a explicat ca e cam stravezie afirmatia ta. Desi au si comunistii o contributie la diferenta in nivelul de trai, mai multe investitii ducandu-se in Ardeal comparat cu Moldova. Sau te poti lauda cu contributia culturala a Scolii Ardelene, insa fara a minimiza ce s-a intamplat in celelalte parti, asa cum fac unii.

Anittas

1. Las-o moale cu superioritatea absoluta a moldovenilor. Moldovenii au multe lucruri cu care sa se laude, nu e nevoie sa o iei global. Daca vrei, lauda rezistenta impotriva turcilor, ungurilor, si polonezilor. Lauda contributia moldovenilor la Unire, faptul ca s-au sacrificat la acel moment. Insa nu-mi vorbi de "Iubire de aproape", ca nu-s mai iubitori de aproape moldovenii sau iesenii decat e bucuresteanul mediu (iti sugerez, daca vrei, sa revezi istoria anului 1941, daca nu ma crezi). Poate sunt mai credinciosi, asta da. Sau conserva mai bine traditiile, ceea ce poate deveni un atu in viitor.
2. Iar saracia din unele zone din Moldova e saracie. N-are rost sa te ascunzi dupa deget.

Am impresia ca propaganda cu "regionalizarea" vi s-a urcat la cap la amandoi. Insa dati-va seama ca nici o tara nu devine mai mare facandu-se bucati. In general, e exact invers. Dpotop 18:50, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

THE ROMANIANS OUTSIDE THE COUNTRY BORDERS

Estimates put the number of Romanians living abroad somewhere between eight and ten million persons. This figure includes several layers from different chronological levels. The oldest dated to the beginnings of the Romanians' history and is made up of descendants from the Romanians south of the Danube, dislodged by the great Slavic wave in the 7th-8th centuries. These branched out into three groups, the Aromanians, the Megleno-Romanians and the Istro-Romanians, all living in the Balkan Peninsula. Today they constitute ethnic minorities in different Balkan states. The following layer comprises the Romanians who remained within the borders of other states after the last territorial amputations inflicted upon Romania. Most of these, about 4 million, live east and north of the Prut, in the regions detached under the 1939 Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, today included in the Ukraine and the Republic of Moldova. --Bombonel 07:27, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

• IN ITALY

A report made in October 2005 estimates that 1,061,400 Romanians are living in Italy, constituting 37.2% of 2.8 million immigrants in that country. If someone eventually puts together a good citation apparatus for this article, that's Mitrica, Mihai Un milion de romani s-au mutat in Italia ("One million Romanians have moved to Italy"). Evenimentul Zilei, 31 October 2005. Retrieved 31 October 2005.

Also when The Prime Minister S. Berlusconi visiting in 12.10.2005 Romania said that there are at least 600.000 (http://www.guv.ro/presa/afis-doc.php?idpresa=42228&idrubricapresa=&idrubricaprimm=&idtema=&tip=&pag=1&dr=).

These were the numbers for Italy. According to them there are at least 1,000,000 romanians in Italy. --Bombonel 07:32, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

• Everywhere

http://news.softpedia.com/news/1/2004/May/8239.shtml

Peste 10 milioane de romani peste granita Guvernul Romaniei s-a declarat neputincios cind s-a pus problema furnizarii unor date estimative despre numarul de romani stabiliti legal in afara granitelor, desi Departamentul pentru romanii de pretutindeni, din cadrul executivului, ar trebui sa aiba detalii despre situatia acestora. Ca atare, am fost nevoiti sa apelam la site-uri neoficiale pentru a intra in posesia acestor date. Rezulta ca aproximativ trei milioane de romani sint stabiliti legal in Europa si America, iar numarul celor care se afla in strainatate fara forme legale se ridica, potrivit datelor furnizate de Oficiul pentru Migratia Fortei de Munca, la peste 600.000, dar exista posibilitatea ca cifra sa fie mult mai mare. In afara Romaniei traiesc insa in jur de 10 milioane de romani. In fosta Uniune Sovietica se afla, cu forme legale, in jur de 300.000 de romani. Aproape trei milioane de romani sint cetateni ai Republicii Moldova. In Ucraina traiesc 459.000 de romani, iar in Bulgaria doar 80.000. Calculele noastre nu ii includ insa pe romanii care au intrat in Europa dupa ridicarea vizelor. --Bombonel 20:18, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

http://www.romanii.ro/romanii din diaspora/index diaspora.htm

ISRAEL Cu toate ca nu exista statistici oficiale complete privind provenienta emigrantilor din Israel pe tari de origine, din datele oficiale rezulta ca in Israel ar trai in prezent 450 000 de evrei originari din Romania. Ambasada Romaniei in Israel ii estimeaza ca fiind 10% din populatia intregii tari, adica in jur de 500 000. Evreii originari din Romania sunt organizati in diferite asociatii etnice si profesionale la nivel national si regional. Fundatia noastra nu a stabilit nici o legatura cu vreo asociatie romaneasca din Israel. Totusi cea mai importanta forma asociativa este "Organizatia evreilor originari din Romania" (HOR), infiintata in anul 1954. Conducerea organizatiei este asigurata de un comitet central, un comitet executiv, presedinte si vicepresedinti pe ramuri de activitate (cultural, financiar, organizatoric, etc.). Are in compunere 4 regionale (Ierusalim, Haifa, Nazareth-Illit si Ber-Sheva), care acopera intreg teritoriul Israelului, dar doar regionalele Haifa si Nazareth-Illit recunosc autoritatea centrala. „Cercul originarilor din Romania” (COR) – membri in Histabrut (Confederatia Generala a Muncii) – a aparut din necesitatea sprijinirii evreilor originari din Romania care actioneaza in structurile de conducere sindicale. Exista o stransa colaborare intre HOR si COR. Asociatia Culturala Mondiala a Evreilor Originari din Romania (ACMEOR) reuneste in randurile sale evrei originari din Romania avand ca activitate principala cercetarea istoriei evreilor din Romania. Ziarele si revistele in limba romana sunt cele mai numeroase publicatii care apar intr-o limba straina in Israel. Se remarca in primul rand ziarele in limba romana "Viata noastra" si "Ultima ora", care are un numar important de cititori (aproximativ 50 000). Se mai editeaza "Facla", publicatie de tip magazin saptamanal, "Adevarul", "Revista familiei", "Secolul XX", revista lunara cu caracter artistic, "Izvoare", revista trimestriala editata de Asociatia scriitorilor israelieni de limba romana, "Revista mea", etc. Evreii originari din Romania au emisiuni in limba romana la posturile de radio si televiziune. --Bombonel 20:27, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

As per above information:

• Italy: more than 1,100,000 romanians
• Israel: 450,000-550,000 romanians

Bombonel 20:40, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Mah omeni buni, voi nu intelege-ti ca nu sa poate in lume sa fie numa 26 de milioane de Romani? Fi-ti atenti aici. Deci voi afirma-ti ca, in USA nu depaseste mai mult de 500 mii Comunitatea Romaneasca, da? Buuuuuuun, sa o luam incetisor. Sunt peste o sute de parohii Romanesti acolo, sunt gramezi de organizatii Romano-Americane, centre culturale, consulate, muzee, manastire si alte sute de dovezi ca suntem multi, fratilor. In Italia acuma. Pt voi nu sunt multi Romani acolo, adica in cel mai bun caz cifra ajunge pe la 100,000, da? Acuma voi veniti cu argumente ca cica aia un milion is muncitori sezonieri care numa vin , culeg capsunele, i-au banii si sa cara acasa unde ii bine si frumos. Problema ii acuma ca sezonul asta ii un pic cam lung de vreo 3-4 ani, dupa care "capsunarii" se duc acasa ca sa isi vada familiile si merg inapi. La Spania acelasi lucru. Da nu vii sa pare voi olecuta' ca astia s-or stabilit acolo si nu mai traiesc in Romania? Iara afimrati ca domnii muncitori is deja numarati printre "victimele" recensamantului roman din anul 2002. Pai atunci oameni buni, inseamna ca Romania are o populatie de vreo 24-25 de milioane, deci suntem mai multi decat credeam. Explicatii sefu'? Apropo, mai am sustinatori, nu-s is singur, deci suntem mai multi care dovedim asta: user:BaNaTeaN, user:Bombonel, user:Andrei George...

Arthur 23 Aprilie 2006

Statistics

It's a fact that there are more romanians than the statistics will ever say. I happen to belive that maybe there are more than 8 million romanians abroad. Arthur say that it must be at least 10,000,000 romanians. It may be well 12,000,000 like the romanian government said it's hard to make a real census. That's why most estimations are saying that there may be around 10-12,000,000 romanians abroad. That means a total of 32-35,000,000 romanians. --Andrei George 21:34, 23 April 2006 (UTC)