Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Kiefer.Wolfowitz (talk | contribs) at 22:10, 20 August 2012 (→MOS-violating emboldening removed: Template for Subscription required: new section). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Error: The code letter for the topic area in this contentious topics talk notice is not recognised or declared. Please check the documentation.

Manual of Style

This page falls within the scope of the Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style, a collaborative effort focused on enhancing clarity, consistency, and cohesiveness across the Manual of Style (MoS) guidelines by addressing inconsistencies, refining language, and integrating guidance effectively.Manual of StyleWikipedia:WikiProject Manual of StyleTemplate:WikiProject Manual of StyleManual of Style This page falls under the contentious topics procedure and is given additional attention, as it closely associated to the English Misplaced Pages Manual of Style, and the article titles policy. Both areas are subjects of debate. Contributors are urged to review the awareness criteria carefully and exercise caution when editing. For information on Misplaced Pages's approach to the establishment of new policies and guidelines, refer to WP:PROPOSAL. Additionally, guidance on how to contribute to the development and revision of Misplaced Pages policies of Misplaced Pages's policy and guideline documents is available, offering valuable insights and recommendations.

Archives

Archive 1 (2006–2008) /Archive 2 /Archive 3

This page has archives. Sections older than 200 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 5 sections are present.

Font Size

What is the standard font size of Misplaced Pages for normal text in the aricle?--76.31.238.174 (talk) 02:29, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

are titles of masses italicized?

Are titles of masses supposed to be italicized? Some articles italicize them, but others do not. This seems pretty inconsistent to me. --Ixfd64 (talk) 19:52, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

The titles should be in italics if they refer to the name of a mass, e.g. Verdi's Messa da Requiem, Beethoven's Missa Solemnis, but works like Mozart's Requiem or Bach's Mass in B minor are not. Can you give an example of the inconsistency you observed? -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 06:13, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Missa brevis Sancti Joannis de Deo by Franz Haydn would be one example. Most articles that link to it do not have it italicized. --Ixfd64 (talk) 17:56, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

That article title is not italicised and I think correctly so. Its title is more in the category of Mass in B minor than Missa Solemnis. It's different when this Haydn mass is called Little Organ Mass or when referring to his Missa in tempore belli or Missa in angustiis (where the article title is erroneously capitalised).

PS: I think the word "mass" should not be capitalised, as it is in this section's header and its 1st sentence. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 05:00, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, I agree that it probably shouldn't be capitalized. If nobody minds, I'm going to change all instances of the word to lowercase in mass (music). --Ixfd64 (talk) 01:11, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Italicization of English as if it were a foreign language

Template talk:Lang-en#Remove italicization from Template:Lang-en may be of interest, for its connection to MOS:ITALICS. — SMcCandlish   Talk⇒ ɖ∘¿¤þ   Contrib. 12:41, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

All websites in italics?

This edit suggests that the names of all websites ought to be in italics. I can't see why e.g. twitter.com should be italicised. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 08:34, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

University of Chicago Press (2010). The Chicago manual of style, p.753. ISBN 9780226104201. suggests blog titles should be italicized. One source suggests websites should be italicized when being referenced: Hudson, Robert (2010). The Christian Writer's Manual of Style, p.279. ISBN 9780310861362. in a manner compatible with the Modern Language Association and the Chicago Manual of Style. Hyacinth (talk) 08:59, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

They should be italicized as works like any other work. Being online doesn't make them magically special. Our own {{Cite web}} does so: McNutt, Harry (2012). "Some Article". Example.com. {{cite web}}: Missing or empty |url= (help). Where a discrete work title is discernible (e.g. in the banner or the HTML <title>...</title>), use that instead of or as a subtitle for the site name. See, e.g., {{AzB player}}. This is especially important when Web server at a domain name and website in the conceptual sense are not the same thing (many sites like eBay consist of multiple third-level domain name servers, while various others, especially colleges and universities, host numerous discrete publications and databases and sites on the same server. Anyway, not italicizing here is basically a matter of conventional laziness, like failure to italicize video game names and software releases (Mass Effect, Microsoft Office 2011). The title of an electronic publication is still the title of a publication. I'm not sure why so many people's brains seem to short circuit on this, though my first guess would be because our keyboards don't have an "ITAL" key that puts stuff in italics, so over the last several decades we've simply gotten used to non-italicized titles of online stuff when we're writing online. That doesn't mean that more formal style is inapplicable in formal writing, as in an encyclopedia.

When referring to an site as a service or company ("She tried to make a living selling ACEOs on eBay", "they met on Facebook", "Bezos founded Amazon.com Inc."), many prefer not to italicize, and perhaps this should be tolerated in the guidelines. An offline equivalent analogue is "Encyclopædia Britannica, Inc.", which is not italicized even in part despite obviously containing the name of a work that, as a work, would always be italicized.

But a site's title should always be italicized when the site is being mentioned as a publication, source (formally or informally), or overall work containing sub-works (by analogy to a newspaper containing articles): "Salon.com and boingboing.net are two of the longer-running e-magazines", "listing prices on eBay for pristine copies have reached over US$10,000" , "CREWE is a Facebook-based forum and multi-party blog of sorts, critical of Misplaced Pages's handling of PR professionals" . Databases are generally treated as publications and italicized in all modern style guides like Chicago, MLA, etc. And virtually all sites these days are databases, even when they don't look like it.

Side note: One can refer to software more generically than discrete, published titles: "Microsoft Windows has become a more stable operating system with the release of Windows 7 ". Our articles on software, including games, are wildly inconsistent on this, so MOS should address this. With the development of Web applications, the distinction between website and software is increasingly blurred, too. — SMcCandlish   Talk⇒ ɖ∘¿¤þ   Contrib. 17:16, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

Other discussions about using italics for web sites:

• /Archive 3#Internet Sites and WP:ITALICS (2010–11), origin of the paragraph a couple lines later which seems to be getting ignored
• Template talk:Infobox website#Italicize site name (2010, 2011)
• Specific example: Talk:Misplaced Pages/Archive 5#Italics (2005); Archive 16#Italics (2008)

I thought I should point out that this text formatting MOS page says the creative-works-in-italics rule does not apply to names of software (other than games). Vadmium (talk, contribs) 02:28, 20 March 2012 (UTC).

Thank you very much for those links. None of those discussions seems to have concluded that the use of italics for all websites is appropriate (why should macdonalds.com be italicised?). As to the purported behaviour of {{Cite web}}: the shown output only renders italics because the parameter |work= was chosen; it would not be in italics with |publisher= which I think is more fitting. As for the term "works": not all works are italicised, e.g short stories, songs, TV episodes are not. I think the current instructions about the italicisation of website names are consistent with previous discussions. If the proposed wording gets adopted, it will have to be implementd at {{Infobox website}}, which will have wide-ranging effect, not the least of which is the article Misplaced Pages – popcorn time. As to sources: they are irrelevant for Misplaced Pages style issues; they are ambiguous and contradictory (UCP does not use italics for their own blogs), so Misplaced Pages sets its own style guides based on encyclopedic principles. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 03:49, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

I'm very much against italicizing the names of web sites except (sometimes and optionally) when they replicate the contents of something else that would also be italicized in its native language, e.g. an encyclopedia, dictionary, newspaper or magazine. Sometimes it's better to keep the .com or .org at the end of an unitalicized website to distinguish it from an italicized analogue (often a printed one), e.g. Fortune.com contrasted with the magazine Fortune. By analogy, an argument could be made that sites that act like printed sources, but in fact have no printed form, such as Slate, Salon and Politico, could reasonably be italicized. The printed and digital Yahoo! Style Guide, composed specifically as a guide for Internet usage, as opposed to print usage, also disfavors italicizing web sites. See Website Names and Addresses But there were a significant number of arguments made in good faith the other way in earlier discussions. —— Shakescene (talk) 08:58, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Proposal to require no-diacritics names

You are invited to join the discussion at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Tennis/Tennis names#RfC: Can a wikiproject require no-diacritics names, based on an organisation's rule or commonness in English press?. This has also been raised at Misplaced Pages talk:Naming conventions (people)#See Talk:Sasa Tuksar. — SMcCandlish   Talk⇒ ɖ∘¿¤þ   Contrib. 18:35, 19 March 2012 (UTC)Template:Z48 — SMcCandlish   Talk⇒ ɖ∘¿¤þ   Contrib. 18:35, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

More opinions required

Can you all have a look at Template_talk:University_of_Pittsburgh#Removed_colours . Thanks Gnevin (talk) 08:40, 27 March 2012 (UTC)

Bold airport codes

Does {{Airport codes}} follow MOS:BOLD#Boldface? For example, for Glasgow International Airport we get (IATA: GLA, ICAO: EGPF) Perhaps the answer is "yes" because that template is designed for use in an airport article's lead sentence? 67.101.5.138 (talk) 01:19, 8 May 2012 (UTC)

Italicize named exhibitions?

The MOS currently recommends italicizing the names of "Art exhibitions". Should this be generalized to named special exhibitions of types such as historical, scientific, educational, cultural, literary, and such? Examples would include:

• The World of Franklin and Jefferson
• A Computer Perspective: Background to the Computer Age
• Earthquake: Life on a Dynamic Planet
• Traveling the Silk Road: Ancient Pathway to the Modern World
• Sydney Elders
• The Raven in the Frog Pond: Edgar Allan Poe and the City of Boston

It's not easy to pigeonhole some of these examples into a single category, which illustrates the point that trying to restrict italicization only to art exhibitions is somewhat artificial and arbitrary, especially since most of these exhibitions have an artistic and esthetic content as well.

No special treatment would be given to unnamed or generic exhibits, such as "A high school exhibit on dental care which was opened with a special reception on Friday", only specifically named or titled exhibitions.

Note that this style already seems to be used widely in Misplaced Pages, but not consistently, due to lack of clear guidance in MOS. Apologies if this has already been discussed here; I don't know how to search the Archived discussions effectively. --Reify-tech (talk) 03:21, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

This seems an entirely logical extrapolation of the current guideline. The suggestion to extend it to "named special exhibitions" seems sensible. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 04:12, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

E.g. or e.g.,

User:Noetica has removed commas from instances of "e.g.," in the MOS. He considers these commas to be inessential and says that they lack justification. He bases their removal on the fact that the MOS contains some instances of "e.g." and "i.e." in which the comma has not been added. And so, to achieve a "simple and consistent style" he thinks that such commas ought to be removed from wherever they appear.

I have tried to restore these commas, but Noetica has reverted my edits.

Noetica has scorned my citation of Garner's Modern American Usage (3rd edition) as a mere external guide, and says that such guides disagree among themselves. If he or anyone else knows of a style guide that recommends the omission of these commas, I should be glad to hear of it.

The fact of the matter is that the absence of these commas in various places in the MOS and elsewhere is a simple mistake or oversight, and they should be restored as soon as possible. "E.g." and "i.e." are parenthetic expressions and must always be enclosed in commas. I'll quote from Strunk and White's The Elements of Style (4th edition), section I, 3, which is titled "Enclose parenthetic expressions between commas."

"The abbreviations etc., i.e., and e.g. ... are parenthetic and should be punctuated accordingly.

           Letters, packages, etc., should go here."

Interested editors should comment on the dispute here. Wahrmund (talk) 19:35, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

CMOS agrees with you. New Hart's Rules (2005) agrees with Noetica: "To avoid double punctuation, do not use a comma after i.e. and e.g." The other two guides I have handy say to avoid such Latin abbrevs when possible; they give no rules or examples bearing on the comma. The rest of my guides are at work, so maybe I'll look tomorrow. Dicklyon (talk) 21:05, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

Why stop with just these two? List of Latin abbreviations, which see. Perhaps there is a need for a MOS guideline that clearly states how Latin terms are to be used—if one doesn't already exist...

—Trappist the monk (talk) 21:56, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

These are the two that get used a lot and that lead to the double-punctuation controversy. In general, the less we use Latin abbrevs the more accessible the text will be; and the less we say about exactly how to use them, the less we'll have to fight about it. Dicklyon (talk) 22:18, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

Wahrmund, thank you for raising the matter in talk as I had suggested; and thank you for alerting me at my own talkpage. Now, we used to have guidance on punctuation following "e.g." and "i.e.", but it was summarily and unilaterally reversed by admin User:JHunterJ, and a dispute ensued. See history of WP:ABBR, 8 June 2012 – present. I have removed any trace of such recommendations until there is a properly conducted discussion of the matter, with respect and wide consultation on all sides.
Wahrmund, I caution you and everyone else concerned to be scrupulous in avoiding misrepresentations, just as you have so far avoided incivility. I do not "scorn" external guides: I collect them and read them as part of a sustained program of research.
I remind participants that all MOS talkpages are under an ArbCom order enabling discretionary sanctions against users, for behavioural or procedural lapses.
I propose that no further discussion be conducted here on this style issue. It belongs at this section of the talkpage for WP:ABBR. I will take part there when order is duly restored; alternatively, I will come there and propose a better location for the discussion.
☺
Noetica 04:56, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

Noetica, I have reverted several of your recent edits. Please do not attempt to bias the discussion regarding commas following "e.g." and "i.e." by removing the trailing commas wherever you may find them within the MOS. There is no consensus on point, and your removal of them throughout the MOS, consistent with your personal preferences, is contrary to your own repeated admonitions to other editors not to implement MOS changes without prior talk page discussion and consensus. Thank you. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 00:50, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

And I've reverted back to the July 27 and earlier long-standing status quo on this one. On MOS:NUM, it's very mixed but has increased from 45 in June to 49 with commas more recently and with your latest edit, out of 74 or so. Noetica was moving toward consistency, within and between MOS pages, which seems like a good thing. I check a few more guides today; two said nothing at all about commas in their discussion of i.e. and e.g. and gave no relevant examples, and one said use the comma when using them in a parenthetical, and don't use them otherwise. But I don't have many Briish guides, and I'm perfectly happy if we decide to dispense with the obnoxious "double punctuation" like they do. Dicklyon (talk) 01:07, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

Never mind, I see it was 2 and 2 on July 27. Still, this sucks. Dicklyon (talk) 01:11, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

Actually, 1 of those 4 is not relevant; it was 2 without and 1 with comma, since this diff of July 27, 2011 (I was off by a year). So it should go back to without to be consistent with how it started. But I don't want to be accused of revert warring the dirt lawyer, so I'll let someone else fix it. Dicklyon (talk) 01:39, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

Restored to last stable version; please discuss per WP:BRD.

Allow me to note here that several edits have referred to "ie" and "eg" as Latin abbreviations. To be sure, at one time they were Latin abbreviations for id est and exempli gratia, and as a foreign language required italics, or on a manual typewriter, underlining. But not now. They are now considered to have entered the English language. I have been unable to find even one style guide that still recommends italics or underlining, although it is recommended for foreign words.

There will always be some who cling to a hundred-year-old writing essay given to them in high school, or some arbitrarily chosen style guide meant for dead-tree formats, but English does move forward in spite of anything we may do. MOS should reflect both best practice and current practice. And electronic media practice.

There is one trend current in the U.S. to try to get rid of "ie" and "eg" altogether and replace them with phrases, eg "such as", "that is", "in other words", or "for example". Ironically, discussions advocating such usage make liberal use of the "ie" and "eg" forms, their spontaneous production of the language in blissful ignorance of the very usage they are trying to dictate.

Another trend, mostly in New Zealand and Australia, does away with "points" (or is it "full points"?) altogether (this must mean "periods"). Again, this form typically appears in ad hoc language and style discussions. But it does appear very prominently and formally here , in the Australian Broadcasting Corporation online style guide.

Neotarf (talk) 11:06, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

I apologize, Neotarf, but I have reverted your reinstatment of Noetica's July attempt to impose "consistent" usage by removing the trailing commas with "e.g." and "i.e." on this page. There is no consensus for or against such trailing comments. As others have been quick to demand over the past year, please do not make changes to MOS pages without discussing them first on the talk page and gaining a consensus for such changes . . . and, please, let's be consistent in how we apply that principle. Moreover, this is not the proper page for a discussion of this usage, where it is merely incidental to the page's primary subject material; please take to the proper venue, the talk page for WP:ABBR. Thanks. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 14:38, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

If you were serious about "don't make changes" you would not have put back the commas, 2/3 of which are new and started this argument on July 27, and other is somewhat new, too, as I pointed out just above. I've reverted you. You've had your 3; please stop now. Dicklyon (talk) 14:42, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

Dick, the edit history is confused beyond recognition. It was not and is not my intention to force my preferred outcome without discussion. If you are serious about not making changes without prior discussion and consensus, I respectfully ask that you restore the last inconsistent version before the July round of imposed "consistency" edits were made. I am hopeful that you will honor the rationale that you and others have so often cited in your own edit summaries. To do otherwise would be, well, rather inconsistent. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 15:04, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

If someone (not you) decides that the inconsistent recent version of July this year would be more appropriate for now, I will not argue. Dicklyon (talk) 16:05, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

List of Valencian monarchs

The List of Valencian monarchs has

• 1239-1276 : James I the Conqueror, King of Aragon and Count of Barcelona
  

and many other entries in the list with bold text. Should the dates and names of these monarchs be in bold, or not? I think not, but I would welcome a more expert opinion. --DThomsen8 (talk) 21:56, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

In the Category:Lists of monarchs, the only list I can find in a format like that of the Valencian monarchs is the List of monarchs of Finland, and that does not have bold text for the dates and names. There is an incredible variety of list formats, some in tables, some not. --DThomsen8 (talk) 22:07, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

The article dates are now unlinked, so I changed this section to conform to the current article.--DThomsen8 (talk) 23:42, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Another editor removed all the emphasis. --DThomsen8 (talk) 01:28, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

'Misplaced Pages' is not in italics

There is a discussion at Talk:Misplaced Pages#Italic title referencing this guideline. The last paragraph of Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style/Text formatting#Italic face should be updated to reflect the non-italic status of Misplaced Pages, Citizendium, Conservapedia, Nupedia, and probably others, within the project and uniformly across reliable and scholarly sources. I am also unable to find any third-party references to Scholarpedia which uses italics, so I think that's wrong. 71.212.250.193 (talk) 00:46, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

MOS-violating emboldening removed: Template for Subscription required

I removed the MOS-violating emboldening from the template

(subscription required),

which looked like this

(subscription required).

Sincerely, Kiefer.Wolfowitz 22:10, 20 August 2012 (UTC)