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Discretionary sanctions appeal: The Troubles

Initiated by 2 lines of K₃₀₃ at 12:41, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:

• One Night In Hackney (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)
• Cailil (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) notified

Statement by One Night In Hackney

I wish to appeal against a frankly bizarre decision where a "consensus of uninvolved administrators" in this discussion has topic banned me while providing virtually no evidence to support the decision.

The 3 month topic ban was proposed here detailing a series of edits to Provisional Irish Republican Army campaign 1969–1997. See User:One Night In Hackney/Appeal for analysis of that series:

The ban was proposed at the end of that series. So FergusM1970 made some bold changes, was reverted, then Portugalpete and SonofSetanta edit war to try and force those changes through without any attempt at discussion. And that's my fault how exactly? If I make one revert and other editors edit war after that, is that somehow my fault? Can I be held responsible for the actions of other editors? I asked for an explanation as to how making one edit to an article is somehow worthy of a 3 month topic ban, I never got a direct reply to that question. Make one revert to enforce content policy and get topic banned, makes no sense to me.

The history of 7 July 2005 London bombings is mentioned as evidence here. I'll be the first to admit my behaviour can be seen as less than stellar on that article, but there's others who are far worse. See User:One Night In Hackney/Appeal for analysis of that article.

Somewhat bizarrely, Flexdream's attempts to edit war OR into an article with unproductive talk page discussion get him just a final warning yet I get a topic ban. I can't really understand the logic of banning the person attempting to enforce content policy while giving the person attempting to violate it a slap on the wrist, anyone?

There's various comments falsely alleging I refused to take part in dispute resolution. The case was filed at 22:24, 3 August 2012 (that's a Friday night for the record). It was archived at 22:44, 4 August 2012, just over 24 hours later. My removal of the notice from my talk page has been falsely interpreted as a refusal to take part. I know where the page is without a link since I've posted there before (and I don't remove noticeboards from my watchlist), and me removing all comments from my talk page is something done repeatedly prior to that. It was a Saturday. During the Olympics. I was too busy to respond straight away since it required a bit of thought. Maybe I should have posted something to that effect, but the DRN volunteer could easily have asked if I was planning to respond, but he chose not to and just closed it assuming bad faith.

Rather than actually deal with the editors persistently violating policy, the admins have decided "sod it, we'll just ban everyone" without taking into account that some editors are simply trying to enforce content policy in the face of disruptive editors adding transparent violations of policy, and that removing the disruptive editors from the situation is all that's needed. I can't see how this topic ban is remotely justified by the "evidence" unless attempting to enforce content policy is now topic ban worthy? 2 lines of K₃₀₃ 12:41, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

@Cailil , the analysis of the evidence at User:One Night In Hackney/Appeal practically demolishes any "tag teaming" accusations (since the majority of the changes I reverted were new changes that had not been reverted by any other editor), and in fact that has never been mentioned before. The only mentions of tag-teaming in the "Result concerning FergusM1970" subsection are "While bright-line violations of restrictions like 1RR are easy to address, they are generally a symptom rather than a root cause, and we will in due course address patterns of misbehavior like stonewalling discussions, tag team reverting, or chronic incivility/sniping" (which doesn't refer to anyone, and in fact was made 3 days *before* you proposed a topic ban) and "Warn Flexdream that further "tag team" edit warring or any misconduct in the areas covered by WP:TROUBLES will result in sanction." (which doesn't refer to me). "perhaps ONiH doesn't see his edit was tag teaming 4 sysops disagreed", where? Where do 4 sysops say that edit was tag teaming in the discussion? You don't even say that when proposing a ban! That's an after the fact attempt to justify an unfair ban with equally poor (and I would argue non-existent) evidence, since your reasoning was "Per the consensus of uninvolved administrators" and the consensus makes no mention of "tag teaming" and neither does the discussion mention it once post-proposal except in relation to Flexdream. In addition your notification was in contravention of Misplaced Pages:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions which states "Notices of imposed sanctions should specify the misconduct for which they have been imposed". Rather than invoke the cabal, it would be more sensible to see that more than one editor reverted the changes because they were wrong and violations of policy.

Finally "The crux of the sanction was due to the tag teaming at Provisional Irish Republican Army campaign 1969–1997 while the case was open. It is not acceptable for a party to bring a case to AE for stated misconduct and then engage in such misconduct themselves - that is the definition of unclean hands." sums up the whole problem here. Reverting once to enforce policy is not "misconduct" 2 lines of K₃₀₃ 14:27, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

I never called AE a cabal. What I said was that you're invoking the cabal by saying editors are tag-teaming, when it's more obvious that they are reverting because the edits were violations of policy. I didn't involve myself in any edit war. As the article history and the evidence page shows, a series of *brand new* edits were made by FergusM1970 on 7 August 2012‎. I reverted the changes I disagreed with, and for most of those changes I was the first person to revert them. What happens after that is nothing to do with me. What you appear to be saying is that FergusM1970 could make any changes he wants to (no matter if they violated policy or not), and that anyone who had the cheek to revert him gets topic banned. I hope everyone else can see how bizarre that is. 2 lines of K₃₀₃ 15:17, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

@BHG, there's also the fact that 4 out of the 7 articles at Category:GA-Class Irish Republicanism articles were taken there by me, and in fact 3 of those were created at pretty much GA status by me. I don't have as much time to write as I'd like right now due to ongoing difficulties in my family hence my lack of recent substantial content edits, since various involved editors made the accusation I contribute nothing. 2 lines of K₃₀₃ 14:51, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

Statement by Cailil

On a personal note I have limited time for this particular thread after brining a request for clarification and making input on a RFAR and responding to 2 other declined AE appeals of the same ruling. I have no problem with ONiH appealing it, it's just I've answered for a group decision of 4 sysops 3 times now already - just as a suggestion there needs to be a better way of dealing with AE closers than singling them out when a group decision has been made.
ONiH was one of a series of editors topic banned for misconduct both in the WP:Troubles topic area (specifically tag teaming editwarring at Provisional Irish Republican Army campaign 1969–1997, but also issues relating to 7 July 2005 London bombings and at AE itself). The ruling took into account the apparent use of AE to "win" content disputes (by multiple parties ONiH being only one).
Initially I was of a mind that FergusM1970 was the only problematic user, other sysops disagreed and wanted to see where DRN discussion would go - they explicitly cautioned all articles to engage in a constructive fashion. After the DRN discussion failed Steven Zhang sent the case back to AE. At that point on examination I came round to other sysops POV that stonewalling and/or process gaming was occurring on both sides of the content issues. No constructive attempts at reaching/building consensus were being made by either side and the dispute originating at Corporals killings spilled over. Instead of following dispute resolution policies (ie disengaging for a start) multiple involved editors tried various brute force mechanisms: tag teaming edit warring; reversion without discussion; immediate reporting to AE; 'tit for tat' AE reports; 'tit for tat' reverts.
The crux of the sanction was due to the tag teaming at Provisional Irish Republican Army campaign 1969–1997 while the case was open. It is not acceptable for a party to bring a case to AE for stated misconduct and then engage in such misconduct themselves - that is the definition of unclean hands. Parties as well as previously uninvolved editors (e.g DagosNavy) jumped into an editwar in breach of WP:Editwar and circumventing the single revert restriction by tag teaming -this was noted at the AE thread, perhaps ONiH doesn't see his edit was tag teaming 4 sysops disagreed (if Arbs see it otherwise I'd appreciate a note on it so we don't make the same decision again elsewhere). At that point and in this context those involved in the worst of the issue were considered for topic bans.
FergusM1970 & SonofSetanta were given longer bans for recidivism and abuse of AE respectively. I did argue for Flexdream to be banned (after he had been formally notified of discretionary sanctions days previously) but other sysops disagreed. There was no 'lumping together of editors'.
I'll also note that contrary to policy ONiH has blanked the topic ban notification. I understand his wish not to have this on his talk page but how he treated it is against policy--Cailil 14:13, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

Note: I think its good for ONiH to use this process to review this AE decision and for the official ability to appeal to ArbCom to be used and I have no problem at all with him doing so. I'd appreciate your eyes on this as frankly it was the worst case I've seen at AE for a long while--Cailil 14:13, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

@ONiH: I understand you're angry but it's going a bit far to describe AE as a cabal - and it's a bit unfair to target me when this is a group decision. Furthermore slow editwars and tag teaming should be obviously inappropriate behaviours and are and have been covered by WP:TROUBLES's rulings since the imposition of the 1rr & probation. In the midst of an edit war at the Provisional_Irish_Republican_Army_campaign article where the same edit was contested multiple times you involved yourself ONiH in that dispute - yes your edits were days apart but the behaviour of you all was unacceptable. This kind of conduct uses the revert function to impose a group's preferred version without a constructive attempt at consensus, in a way that circumvents 1RR.
Furthermore Slp1 raised the issue of the 7 July 2005 London bombings of which your conduct was slow editwaring as she mentioned (no perhaps we didn't single you out by name but that should be obvious by the article history and your edits) You were only 1 part of that issue and you were not singled out, others (ie OldJacobite) did the same thing
The discretionary sanctions issue was raised within the AE discussion on foot of your question on my talk page - 4 *other* sysops disagreed with your interpretation (Seraphimblade at AE, Tim Canens, Ed Johnston and KillerChiuahua at Tim's page). I belive Seraphimblade dealt with this in detail and an AE appeal by Domer48 was already closed on these grounds as declined. For this appeal to be completely upheld the Arbs would have to exhonerate your actions at both articles ONiH. If the Arbs feel that the discussion at AE was not explicit enough and that that is grounds for appeal, fine - we can learn from that, but the grounds for action seem clear to me and if Arbs disagree fine but I'd like a note on why so similar decisions are not made--Cailil 15:06, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

• @BHG: many felt that mandated external review would be useful. If that passes as a AC/DS applicable sanction I'd have no quibbles with ONiH's ban being replaced by MER for 3 months in the Troubles area articles. Or if the Committee have a novel approach for this I think that would be fine. I'm also not opposed to reductions based on policy reasoning or if the Arb feel we've erred. However I feel that someone as experienced as ONiH should know that misconduct in an area under probation carries sanction--Cailil 15:06, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

• @NYBrad: ONiH's edit-warring identified above, with context. The use of AE was also an issue. General conduct around the dispute was considered by AE admins--Cailil 15:08, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

Statement by BrownHairedGirl

I do not have time to analyse this case, but would like to note that User:One Night In Hackney is a long-term editor of articles relating to The Troubles, and one of the most scholarly content-creators in that field. His prolific contributions include the 1981 Irish hunger strike, which he massively expanded in 2007 and brought to featured article status.

It is a serious loss to Misplaced Pages that a contributor of this calibre should be banned from the topic where they have made such a significant contribution. I would ask all concerned to examine whether this can be avoided. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 14:38, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

Statement by other user

Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Arbitrator views and discussion

• Recused, although I do think the filer has a pretty good point here. SirFozzie (talk) 12:53, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
• Awaiting further input, including from any other AE administrators who participated in the decision and may wish to comment. (For the benefit of Cailil and others, while we appreciate and need the input of the AE admins when there is an appeal, I do not consider that the AE admins are parties to the dispute.) In particular, it would be helpful if someone could identify the specific edits by One Night in Hackney that led to the sanction, and any prior sanctions history involving him that might be relevant. Newyorkbrad (talk) 14:48, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

Amendment request: The Troubles

Initiated by Seraphimblade at 21:27, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

Case affected

The Troubles arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)

Clauses to which an amendment is requested

1. Remedy 5

List of users affected by or involved in this amendment

• Seraphimblade (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) (initiator)

Confirmation that the above users are aware of this request

N/A

Information about amendment request

• It is requested that the discretionary sanctions in the area of British baronets be lifted.

Statement by Seraphimblade

Following a recent appeal to arbitration enforcement from a user who had been sanctioned under the Troubles discretionary sanctions, and objected to the portion of this which forbade editing of British baronets, a closer look was taken at this. Arbitrator Newyorkbrad confirmed that the Committee had not seen any issues arise from this area for at least a year and a half , and taking a check through the AE archives and case enforcement logs, I also can't find any trouble there recently. The administrators involved in the discussion regarding the appeal, including the one who closed the original request and placed the sanctions, agreed there was little purpose in the baronet portion of the ban and it ultimately was lifted for that editor. It's nice to see an area where sanctions have done their job and calmed things down, so I think it's time to give it a go without them. Accordingly, I'd propose something to this effect:

"Remedy 5 (Standard discretionary sanctions) of Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/The Troubles is amended as follows: The words "and British baronets" are stricken from this remedy. The Committee reserves the right to restore sanctions to this area by motion should a pattern of editing problems reemerge. Existing sanctions which were placed prior to this amendment remain in effect until they expire or are lifted via the normal appeals process." Seraphimblade 21:27, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

@Newyorkbrad: I realize the sanctions can be tailored on a case by case basis, based upon the type and area of misconduct they're being applied in response to. That is overhead to remember and/or process AE appeals if someone forgets when originally applying them though, and I think in general it's a good idea to have as few areas as possible have sanctions applied to them. There are some areas where it's likely that won't happen for many years, but if there are others where the problem that led to them is no longer a problem, I think we ought to scale them back, remove the "big scary notices" on the article edit pages and talk pages, etc. Seraphimblade 14:32, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

Statement by Scolaire

This question arose because some of the editors involved in the Troubles case were people who largely edited articles on baronets, but who had made controversial edits to Troubles-related articles and AfDs, sometimes with inflammatory edit summaries, and there was some "revenge" editing of baronet articles. See in particular Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/The Troubles#Statement by User:Vintagekits and Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/The Troubles#Statement by User:Kittybrewster. As far as I am aware, since the case concluded in October 2007, no editor in either area has strayed into the others' territory. There is no apparent need to continue to link them. Scolaire (talk) 08:21, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

Statement by BrownHairedGirl

I endorse Scolaire's summary, except that there a further incident after 2007.

There was a further flare-up of the Troubles-Baronets link in May 2009, involving me (BrownHairedGirl), Vintagekits and Kittybrewster. A request for abitration was opened, and dealt with by summary motion: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case&oldid=289861526#Baronets_naming_dispute

So far as I am aware, there has been no further Troubles-related disputes wrt Baronets since then.

All of the troubles-related disputes wrt baronets involved Vintagekits (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), who is currently indef-blocked (and I think also perma-banned) after a very long series of conflicts. -BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 11:46, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

Clerk notes

This section is for administrative notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

• Notified various noticeboards and Wikiproject talk pages per Courcelles' request (link). Daniel (talk) 04:18, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

Arbitrator views and discussion

• This is potentially thorny enough that I would appreciate the clerks notifying various noticeboards/wikiprojects that would be reasonably interested. Might be worth letting AN know as well. Courcelles 03:59, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
• Awaiting further statements. PhilKnight (talk) 08:50, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
• Based on everything I am aware of, the disputes that formerly existed on the "baronets" articles were not directly related to "the Troubles"; they are mentioned in the remedy because those disputes, at that time, involved a handful of the same editors who were involved in the "the Troubles" disputes as well. If, as appears, there aren't any ongoing disputes concerning baronets, then editors restricted under "the Troubles" need not be restricted as to "baronets" editing. That being said, I don't believe a formal motion to amend is necessary to narrow the sanctions. Any administrator imposing a discretionary sanction has the authority to tailor the sanction to the specific misconduct warranting it. Thus, if the ArbCom decision says "discretionary sanctions are authorized in areas A, B, and C" and a user has breached policy only re A and B and has never had a problem with C, then it's quite in order for the admin to impose the sanction as to A and B and leave C out. So, a formal amendment isn't necessary, but I'm willing to propose an amendment motion anyway if there's a consensus of the AE administrators that it would be helpful. Newyorkbrad (talk) 18:25, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

Clarification request: The Troubles

Initiated by Cailil at 14:55, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Case affected

The Troubles arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)

Statement by Cailil

Per the closure of this WP:ARE thread I'm seeking clarification regarding whether enforcing sysops can impose Mandated External Review (MER) under the currect provisions for discretionary sanctions?
The above thread saw significant disruption both from long term and newer editors and it was felt by the admins at AE that MER would significantly help the topic area under the WP:TROUBLES probation.
AGK already commented on this but felt this request for clarification appropriate--Cailil 14:55, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Statement by Penwhale

I actually hold the belief that MER should not be randomly given out as a part of discretionary sanctions.

Putting an editor on MER requires other non-involved editors to look into those proposed edits. It takes much more time and effort for MER to work, and I believe that such declarations should not be left under discretionary sanctions.

I would like to propose an alternative that MER can be sanctioned either by ArbCom approval, or as a community opinion at the appropriate locations because this way more people will know that said user is under MER (and thus require more scrutiny regarding edits).

Also, I would like to propose that the list of users under MER should have its own subpage (instead of being grouped with other editing restrictions), because the editors in question is not under a topic ban (and a different page/section/etc would make it easier to track). - Penwhale | 15:24, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

Statement by TC

I agree with Brad that any other measures which the imposing administrator believes are reasonably necessary to ensure the smooth functioning of the project surely includes MER. I'm not sure, however, that formalizing MER right now with a motion is needed. Of the three editors placed on MER in ARBFLG2, two are currently topic-banned, and the remaining one (Colipon) hasn't edited much since the case closed. If we limit MER to the Falun Gong area only, it is unlikely that we'll have enough data to make an informed decision for a long, long time. I believe that it is best to allow AE admins to employ MER in other areas under the catchall provision for now, and reconsider whether to formalize MER as a discretionary sanction once we have enough data. T. Canens (talk) 18:44, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

Statement by other user

Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Arbitrator views and discussion

• I concur with AGK, Mandated External Review can be imposed under discretionary sanctions. PhilKnight (talk) 15:04, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
• The original thought behind this would be that MER would have to be explicitly authorized for use in an area (that is, beyond "simple" discretionary sanctions). Further, we've yet to formalize the sanction for use in other areas. I'd meant to do this with the page you linked to after Falun Gong 2, but got tied up and forgotten about it (thanks for the reminder). So my thoughts would be "No, the Committee needs to explicitly say 'MER can be used in the Troubles area'" but am open to it being merged into the rest of discretionary sanctions. I'll open up a motion to formalize that user page once I get home, that should help here. Hersfold non-admin 16:39, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
  • Waiting for code to compile, so motions posted already. Hersfold non-admin 18:18, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
• With respect to topic-areas under discretionary sanctions, Misplaced Pages:Discretionary sanctions states that "the sanctions imposed may include blocks of up to one year in length; bans from editing any page or set of pages within the area of conflict; bans on any editing related to a topic within the area of conflict or its closely related topics; restrictions on reverts or other specified behaviors; or any other measures which the imposing administrator believes are reasonably necessary to ensure the smooth functioning of the project." (emphasis added). I think that "mandated external review" falls in a topic-area would fall within "any other means the imposing administrator believes are reasonable necessary"—or another way of looking at it is that the user in question is topic-banned from making edits in the topic-area unless they are cleared by MER first. So, as a formal matter, I think MER could be imposed on editors in "The Troubles" area or any others subject to DS. That doesn't mean, however, that admins should rush ahead into doing so in a wide variety of areas. It might make sense to begin with this new and creative approach to problematic topics and editors in a few areas (Falun Gong being the first) and develop some experience with whether it is a successful approach, before expanding it too widely. An RfC on the parameters, at some point, might also be useful. Newyorkbrad (talk) 17:32, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Motions

For the purposes of these motions, there are 14 active arbitrators, so 8 votes is a majority.

Formalization of Mandated External Review as an independent sanction

Note: This motion is an alternative to motion 2.

1) Mandated External Review is formally adopted as an independent form of sanction which must be explicitly authorized for use by the Arbitration Committee within a given area of conflict. A page shall be created at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration Committee/Mandated external review with the contents of this page, (Note: update the permalink as needed when changes are made to that page) excepting those portions highlighted in green, in order to provide further information and guidance on the use of this sanction.

Support

1. Second choice. While this was the original intent of MER (hence why it's still on the table), NYB makes a good point in that the rather broadly-sweeping language of discretionary sanctions would automatically include just about anything, including MER. Also the independent sanction wording is rather redundant to discretionary sanctions, which in hindsight seems a bit silly. Hersfold non-admin 18:18, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
2. Second choice to settle the question, but prefer the alternative, subject to my comments above. Newyorkbrad (talk) 16:18, 18 August 2012 (UTC)
3. Second choice; prefer 2). AGK 14:30, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Prefer the other motion. PhilKnight (talk) 19:38, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
2. Nope, just creates more work and takes tools out of AE admins hands. Courcelles 22:57, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
3. Per Courcelles,  Roger Davies 08:55, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

Abstain

Comments

• Passage of this motion would amount to a "no" answer to Cailil's original question. Hersfold non-admin 18:18, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Formalization of Mandated External Review as a form of discretionary sanction

Note: This motion is an alternative to motion 1.

2) Mandated External Review is formally adopted as a form of discretionary sanction. A page shall be created at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration Committee/Mandated external review with the contents of this page, (Note: update the permalink as needed when changes are made to that page) excepting those portions highlighted in blue, in order to provide further information and guidance on the use of this sanction.

Support

1. First choice per above. Hersfold non-admin 18:18, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
2. PhilKnight (talk) 19:39, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
3. This is, IMO, the status quo. Courcelles 22:58, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
4. Jclemens (talk) 00:35, 18 August 2012 (UTC)
5. But subject to my comments above, the gist of which is that we ought to proceed deliberately in introducing and evaluating this new remedy/sanction formulation, rather than just introducing in all DS topic-areas in a blunderbuss fashion. Newyorkbrad (talk) 16:18, 18 August 2012 (UTC)
6. Support this if there is a good review/evaluation of its usefulness scheduled in somewhere. --Elen of the Roads (talk) 14:54, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
7. First choice. I would like us to make this option available to AE administrators who are otherwise at the end of their tether with one topic area or another. Like Elen, I would however prefer that we evaluate the effectiveness of MER at some stage. I prefer that we unfold the MER documentation into a separate page, to make it clear we intend MER to be an elevated form of discretionary sanctions.

   Setting this specific case aside, I am rather uncomfortable with the idea of MER, and if I were a sysop staffing AE I would probably topic-ban a user instead of subjecting them to MER. Nevertheless, I am content for us to give it a shot: discretionary sanctions were probably once thought of as a novel and dangerous. AGK 14:38, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

Oppose

1. I don't think we are in a position to explicitly include this yet, given that we only have had it in place for about a month on one case, and have no data on whether or not it is effective or useful, or if it is ineffective and harmful. I think it is inherent in the existing discretionary sanctions, and I have no opposition to a separate page (although who exactly would be watching it is an interesting question). Risker (talk) 17:56, 18 August 2012 (UTC)
2. Per Risker,  Roger Davies 08:55, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

Abstain

Comments

• Passage of this motion would amount to a "yes" answer to Cailil's original question. Hersfold non-admin 18:18, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Falun Gong 2 amended

Note: This motion is dependent upon either motion 1 or motion 2 passing.

3) Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Falun Gong 2 is amended as follows:

1. Remedy 4, "Mandated external review", is stricken.
2. Remedies 5-7, "Homunculus subject to mandated external review", "Ohconfucius subject to mandated external review", and "Colipon subject to mandated external review", are amended to read: "<Editor's Name> is subject to mandated external review as outlined at Misplaced Pages:Arbitration Committee/Mandated external review, with respect to articles relating to the Falun Gong movement and/or the persecution thereof, broadly construed. Application of mandated external review in this subject area may only be appealed directly to the Arbitration Committee via a request for amendment."

Support

1. Tying up loose ends. The added sentence at the end is to override the standard appeals process described at the discretionary sanctions page or MER page (whichever gets passed), which permits appeal via the AE noticeboard. In light of the fact MER was applied by remedy and not by a single administrator, it's probably unnecessary, but avoids the need to clarify later. Hersfold non-admin 18:18, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
2. Hersford's point as to why this is needed is accurate. Courcelles 00:01, 18 August 2012 (UTC)
3. Jclemens (talk) 00:36, 18 August 2012 (UTC)
4. Per Hersfold's reply to my question below. PhilKnight (talk) 10:30, 18 August 2012 (UTC)
5. Housekeeping; not strictly necessary, but will clarify things at best, and be harmless at worst. Newyorkbrad (talk) 16:18, 18 August 2012 (UTC)
6. Per Hersfold's comment in response to Phil, this avoids having multiple sets of nearly-identical remedies. We all know from the standardised discretionary sanctions business that separate sets of sanctions is a logistical nightmare, and that it confuses our users. AGK 14:40, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Per my oppose above. I'd rather see if this actually works before we institutionalize it. Risker (talk) 18:25, 18 August 2012 (UTC)
2. Again, per Risker. Plus, as formulated, MER is work-intensive and we may not get enough uninvolved boots on the ground to make it work,  Roger Davies 08:55, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

Abstain

Comments

• I'm not entirely sure this is necessary. PhilKnight (talk) 19:41, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
  • The reason I feel this is necessary is to ensure consistent enforcement of MER across all places where it's being applied. If, down the road, we make changes to the formalized version of MER, these editors would still be subject to the terms outlined in the Falun Gong 2 final decision, since presently the remedies applying MER to them specify "as outlined in remedy 4." Hersfold non-admin 20:32, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Amendment request: Race and intelligence

Initiated by The Devil's Advocate (talk) at 22:32, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Case affected

Race and intelligence arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)

Clauses to which an amendment is requested

1. Review remedies 6.1 and 7.1.
2. Review remedy 1.1.

List of users affected by or involved in this amendment

• The Devil's Advocate (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)
• TrevelyanL85A2 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• SightWatcher (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Mathsci (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Confirmation that the above users are aware of this request

• TrevelyanL85A2
• SightWatcher
• Mathsci

Amendment 1

• Review remedies 6.1 and 7.1 (standard language).
• Modification of ban to be a standard topic ban from Race and intelligence-related edits broadly construed and a route for appeal of the sanction clearly outlined.

Statement by The Devil's Advocate

My concerns mostly relate to the wording that bans "participating in any discussion concerning the conduct of editors who have worked in the topic." As read this ban would seem to prevent any discussion of the conduct of the 1,000+ editors who have contributed to the Race and intelligence article, even when it has nothing to do with the subject. However, from my reviewing of their contributions it seems the only time these editors have commented on the conduct of editors from the topic area has been when that conduct directly concerned the topic area in some way.

This wording greatly enables the kind of disruptive gaming sanctions should be looking to prevent and this appears to have already occurred. Following an amendment to the Review case regarding Mathsci, an IP sock of an editor apparently obsessed with Math left a comment on Trev's talk page. Math removed the comment and Trev restored it, politely asking that Math not edit his userspace. Math reverts, citing WP:BAN, and suggests Trev ask an Arb about it. Trev restores the comment and reiterates his desire that Math not do this. Another editor reverts him, an IP restores the comment, and the previous editor removes the comment again.

Following Math's suggestion Trev commented at the page of Jclemens to object to these actions in his userspace and asking for advice. Mathsci jumps into the discussion, calling Trev Ferahgo, claiming that Trev had made a "sudden miraculous return" and that he was engaging in conduct "indistinguishable" from "Ferahgo's other friend SightWatcher", knowing Trev's actions were actually prompted by the above situation. After expressing his frustration with Math's conduct towards him, Math seizes on Trev's mention of R&I to say "Someone could easily report him now at WP:AE" and a report was filed mere minutes later.

A few days later Math created an ANI discussion to object to other editors restoring comments from that same sockmaster. He references Trev's conduct obliquely by talking of his "perseverance . . . in pursuing those operating proxy-editors." One day later Trev comments merely to say Math had also removed comments from his userspace against his wishes and that he should stop doing that. Math immediately suggests administrative action by stating "he is breaking the terms of that ban by commenting here when his name has not been mentioned", conveniently worded to disregard the allusion to Trev's conduct just a day before. Just as before an AE case is filed in response to Math's comments almost immediately with the filer responding to the ANI comment to note the case has been created, which results in a block.

During Trev's appeal, Math seemingly insinuates that he had nothing to do with that AE case. Not long after that Math once more goes in to remove comments from Trev's talk page, sparking another edit war in Trev's userspace that lead to Trev losing talk page privileges. After the block expired, Trev filed a request for arbitration regarding the circumstances of the block and the removal of comments from banned editors by Math and others, with Math immediately responding with an AE case, claiming falsely that Trev is forbidden from even mentioning Math's name.

This dispute with Math illustrates rather clearly how the sanction has proven ineffective as Math can directly provoke Trev into a block-worthy response without fear of Trev reporting him for it, essentially encouraging such disruption. I believe reducing the sanction to a normal topic ban will prevent this situation from repeating with Trev or Sight.

@Pen I do not think an interaction ban of any kind is necessary at this point, because the issue, from my perspective, is that Math knew his conduct could not be reported by Trev without Trev getting blocked for violating the ban. Allowing Trev the ability to comment on Math's conduct outside R&I means, I believe, that he will feel compelled to avoid interacting with Trev because there will be no incentive. Rather than having a restriction that presumes Trev or Sight will engage in bad behavior outside R&I, despite no evidence being presented to support that presumption, making it so that they have true freedom of movement outside R&I will more clearly signal whether they will or can edit constructively elsewhere on Misplaced Pages.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 15:15, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

@Roger It is not the removal of comments from banned editors itself that is the issue, but the edit-warring and resulting discussions about it being used to restrict Trev's activity on Misplaced Pages. Math could have done any number of things to prevent a situation where Trev gets blocked, but he chose to poke at Trev repeatedly until he said "Stop it!" and then Math basically responds with "BAN HIM!" Look at the discussion on Jclemens' talk page. Math suggested Trev talk to an Arb about the issue, and when Trev did, Math repeatedly accused Trev of talking to Jclemens at the behest of a banned editor, when he would know full well that Trev was talking to Jclemens at Math's own suggestion. After repeatedly referring to Ferahgo and the proxy-editing allegations (including a comment where he implies Trev is Ferahgo), Trev responded by saying Math's conduct keeps him from getting away from R&I drama and Math said "someone" could file an AE case against Trev because R&I was not mentioned in the discussion. He did the same thing at AN as Trev commented after Math clearly referred to the proxy-editing allegations against Trev, but Math said Trev was in violation of the ban because his name was not mentioned in the discussion. That kind of conduct is textbook gaming. The point of my request for these two amendments is partly to make it less likely that such gaming can occur.

I would also reiterate that the wording "worked in the topic" is so broad that any editor who has made a few edits to an R&I article would qualify, meaning the restriction as it stands effectively leaves Trev and Sight on edge about whether they can complain about the conduct of any user as that editor may have a few minor contributions to an R&I article. A restriction that effectively demands Trev and Sight memorize an exhaustive list of contributors to a topic area to know whose conduct they can comment about without fear of sanction is punitive to the extreme.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 15:59, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

I am going to reiterate that the banned editor comments are not the issue. Again, even if Math feels his actions were justified, Trev not being able to object to this conduct in his own userspace and Math seeming to exploit that restriction in discussions about the conduct to provoke Trev into a blockable action is the inherent problem being noted here. I believe how to handle the restoration of contributions from banned editors is the kind of issue that should be referred to the community, and not decided by the Arbs in even this limited sense as it would represent a rejection of a long-accepted standard.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 00:29, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Roger, on several occasions now I have said that my argument is not based on some opinion about the legitimacy of removing comments from banned editors ( ). Continuing to say my request for amendment serves to "characterize Mathsci's reversion of harassment by a banned editor as gaming" seems rather inflammatory. Would you please address my concerns by taking my own stated reasons for the request into consideration, rather than making claims about my reasons that have been repeatedly rebuffed?--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 18:51, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

AGK, Mathsci is certainly not a minor contributor to the topic area and his actions are what prompted my concerns. Your proposed change would not resolve those concerns by any measure. As long as editors such as Mathsci are able to force interactions with these editors while those with whom they are forcing interactions are unable to complain about those interactions, I do not see any reason to believe the issue with the restriction will be resolved.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 03:14, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

I will say concerning the comment from Jclemens, part of the reason I believe a simple topic ban is the most appropriate change is because making it a mutual interaction ban would be difficult to enact in a way that would not sanction editors who were not part of the issue. My belief is that interaction bans should only be used in lieu of a topic ban or for when problematic interactions extend beyond a single topic area. Combining a topic ban with an interaction ban, one-way or mutual, when the conduct issues only concern a specific topic area is restricting the editor more than is necessary to resolve the dispute, in my opinion.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 03:33, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Statement by Hipocrite

What R&I needs more than anything is another proxy editor for the previous proxy editors. Hipocrite (talk) 23:49, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Statement by Johnuniq

The effect of Amendment 1 would be to enable SightWatcher and TrevelyanL85A2 to discuss the conduct of editors connected with the topic. In practice, that means these two editors would be entitled to initiate discussions about Mathsci on a variety of talk pages and noticeboards. It is hard to see how that would help the encyclopedia, and I am unaware of any reason to believe that such monitoring is required. At any rate, the R&I cases have raised Mathsci's profile to an extent that plenty of established editors are available should Mathsci's conduct need comment.

Mathsci has two problems:

• Remedy 1.1. This appears to be satisfactorily resolved, and Mathsci's contributions show a lot of good article development and no battlefield conduct, possibly apart from the following problem.
• A long term abuser is known to harass Mathsci. The problems started long ago (disagreements were at Butcher group in June 2009, but started before that) and were not related to R&I in any way.

The banned user now has an easy method of attacking Mathsci. All they have to do is notify an R&I editor about some matter (that event was a case request that was removed 17 minutes later by Courcelles). The banned user has noticed that some editors will restore their comments after they have been removed per WP:DENY (diff, diff), and the community has divided opinions on the desirability of removing comments by banned users. That guarantees a pointless discussion which can be initiated by the banned user whenever they choose.

If Arbcom decides that editors should not remove unhelpful comments that were intended to harass a productive editor, the banned user can create permanent memorials to celebrate their achievement. That issue does not need input from R&I editors (and if it were vital, they could email Arbcom). Johnuniq (talk) 01:44, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

• Rue Cardinale is a new sock and needs to be blocked. Clearly the banned user is trying to provoke conflict, and the only sensible procedure is to apply DENY by removing their junk. Johnuniq (talk) 10:46, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

@Silverseren: Your comment at "03:08, 31 July 2012" asserts your right to restore comments from a banned user, but I do not see any explanation for how that helps the encyclopedia—why would you want to do that?

This clarification request has raised two unrelated issues: (1) what are appropriate responses relating to the R&I issue, and (2) what are appropriate responses relating to the banned user who has harassed Mathsci for over three years (the banned user has no interest in R&I and is merely using these discussions to poke Mathsci). Talk:Silverseren now has a completely superfluous "notification" signed by a sock with a username that matches the street where Mathsci lives—it is rare to see such a clear case of harassment.

I saw an early disagreement between the banned user and Mathsci (from a discussion at ANI in 2009), and the initial interaction showed a good editor (Mathsci) going out of their way to provide helpful answers to questions from the user (see here). That is after an ANI report by Mathsci against the user (ANI archive), which indicates that one source of friction involved a mistaken belief by the user regarding Mathsci's username. The best (and only) way of handling the banned user is by a strict application of WP:DENY (I hate having to provide all this material which will only excite more trouble).

We should assist good editors (see Mathsci's contributions), and should do all that is possible to prevent disruption by banned users. Johnuniq (talk) 04:33, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Statement by Penwhale

I am sort of torn about this one. But I believe that MathSci and Trev needs to stay away from each other, as much as possible. Thus, if remedy is changed to topic ban, some sort of user-talk interaction ban (at the very least) needs to be present. - Penwhale | 11:25, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Statement by Vecrumba

R&I would be much calmer if Mathsci stuck to content (on WP) and completely recused themselves from role of policeman/enforcer (anywhere on WP, not just R&I). It's time for his holier than thou to stop. Do we really all have time to keep reading through his enforcement-related litanies?VєсrumЬа ►TALK 23:44, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Statement by (yet another user)

Amendment 2

• Review remedy 1.1.
• Include an explicit warning that further battleground conduct by Mathsci towards editors that is related to the topic will be cause for discretionary sanctions.

Statement by The Devil's Advocate

It seems that Mathsci does not understand that the standard regime of discretionary sanctions under Remedy 5.2, which replaced Remedy 5.1, would also apply to his activities. He has claimed that WP:AE can only be used to report edits related to R&I on articles and their talk pages, or edits that violate a sanction and that he can thus only be sanctioned through a request for amendment. The following are some instances where he has made this mistaken claim:

Making it clear to Math that his conduct related to R&I anywhere on Misplaced Pages could be cited at AE as the basis for sanctions would seemingly help, together with the above amendment, in preventing Math from continuing in this disruptive conduct and allow these editors some breathing room to try and be productive elsewhere.

@Math The request I am making is so fundamentally different from the requests for arbitration that your claim it is "not very different" is just bizarre. As to the predictable accusation of proxy-editing, if you also wish to be "in contact off-wiki" with me that would be fine. Got mountains of evidence you wish to share privately? Feel free. Door's open dude. Oh, and sorry for leaving a notification on your talk page. I was on auto-pilot and forgot about your prior request.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 00:51, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

I really want to keep this statement short and respect the privacy of the communication so I will give you the cliff's notes version of that rather anticlimactic e-mail. He feels the arbitration request was respecting what was said by the Arbs, he preferred on-wiki suggestions other than the one I previously made on-wiki and am making here, and said some inconsequential stuff about you that I have not alluded to here at all. All in all, I do what I want.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 05:14, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

@John, I understand the desire to deny recognition, but there are more ways to deny recognition than RBI. Sometimes a much more concise and successful approach is if you remove the R. Certain things just aren't worth clicking undo.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 05:14, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Brad, I am not suggesting some sort of new remedy for Math. Effectively my suggestion with this second amendment is redundant as Remedy 5.2 already says any editor making any edits related to R&I anywhere on Misplaced Pages can be sanctioned if those edits violate policy. Basically my suggestion is to drive the point home by adding something like "and warned that continued battleground behavior anywhere on Misplaced Pages relating to R&I broadly construed could lead to sanctions under Remedy 5.2", or something to that effect, to his admonishment. That way he is not under the impression that his actions in userspace, or any other non-article space, are exempt from discretionary sanctions.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 21:33, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

@CIreland I don't think that's a very good idea. Just like the current restriction against Trev and Sight it would be so broad as to be just another cause for useless drama. How does someone know the edit belongs to a specific sockmaster? If someone is unaware of the restriction how do we react? There is no conceivable way such a new restriction would do anything but create more problems.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 00:43, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Repetitive attempts to divert this into a discussion about a banned editor should not be indulged by the Arbs. I have only mentioned the issue here to help illustrate the inherent problem with the restriction against Trev and Sight. That they are not allowed to object to an individual directly engaging them in a combative manner is the problem here, regardless of whether one feels the combativeness is justified or not. Math's mistaken belief that he cannot be subject to discretionary sanctions as long as he avoids editing articles and talk pages relating to the topic area is another matter that needs to be addressed.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 17:49, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

@Roger I am attempting to minimize disruption to this request. Getting more editors to comment here is not helping in that respect, considering the issue you are raising is not really relevant to the request I am making (Math and Trev could have been fighting over the color of Master Chief's armor for all that I care). Can you honestly say right now that Trev being unable to comment on Math's conduct, when Math can directly engage Trev in a combative manner without worrying about his conduct being reported by Trev, is really serving to prevent disruption? Regardless of what prompted the situation, the situation itself did not play out in a way that suggests the restriction is helping to minimize disruption. I believe the best way to prevent disruption to the project would be to consider my two amendment requests, and not support any unprecedented restriction that disregards a long-standing community consensus.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 21:17, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

@Math You can't just say "this person is definitely a sock" on their user page, or on your user page, without ever having an SPI filed that confirms your allegations. I know from reviewing the history that you do not have a perfect record when it comes to accusing people of being socks, so I don't think anyone should just take your word for it. However, this is not the place for that discussion.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 16:46, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Just like to add that I would have asked on Math's talk page for him to remove these allegations or file an SPI to substantiate them, but I am respecting his desire that I not comment on his talk page.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 17:46, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Math, if you wish to discuss this matter with me, you can comment on my talk page. I am not going to debate the quality of a classical music article in a request for amending a case that pertains to Race and Intelligence. I will say that you should be mindful of a saying about glass houses.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 04:34, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

@John, Trev clearly answered Roger's question at the very beginning of his initial statement.
@Math, the comment restored by the Echigo sock was a previous suggestion for a legitimate clean start and made no direct reference to you. Afterwards, Sinebot mistakenly added the new sock's signature and Trev removed that signature.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 16:25, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

@John, did you read the rest of the discussion at Jclemens' talk page? Mathsci's comments there were not exactly about Echigo mole. As to your quote from Roger Davies, I should note that during the review case he touched on the issue of Mathsci removing comments by the very same banned editor from the talk pages of other editors and said:

While reverting posts by a banned user is an option, Mathsci shouldn't be doing so from user talk pages in the face of the user's opposition to him doing so. Accordingly, I don't think the latest revert yesterday was either wise or appropriate, especially as the post was neither extreme nor offensive nor a personal attack on Mathsci. This is provocative battleground behaviour.

Honestly, I have been a tad perplexed by Roger's comments below since they seem to be inconsistent with his comments on the review case.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 04:10, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Statement by Mathsci

I have already made several statements in private to the arbitration committee prior to this request being posted concerning the interactions between TrevelyanL85A2 and The Devil's Advocate. Apart from omitting all mention of MastCell, this request does not seem very different from TrevelyanL85A2's very recently rejected RfAr and also not very different from the RfAr of Keystone Crow that was removed almost immediately by Courcelles. The only thing that might be worth pointing out here is that The Devil's Advocate has been in contact off-wiki with TrevelyanL85A2. The Devil's Advocate is also himself under a 6 month topic ban under WP:ARB911. Mathsci (talk) 00:19, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

My content edits are disjoint from the topic area covered by WP:ARBR&I and have been for two years. Nothing new has happened since the recent review apart from the reappearance on wikipedia of two of the parties that chose not to comment during the review. Arbitrators, in particular Casliber and Elen of the Roads, suggested that arbcom should be kept informed of any problems from the DeviantArt group of editors. The on-wiki and then off-wiki communications between The Devil's Advocate and TrevelyanL95A2 were of that kind. At the moment The Devil's Advocate seems to be acting on behalf of TrevelyanL85A2, after communicating at least once in private. The banned wikihounder Echigo mole/A.K.Nole is a red herring, a red herring that appears to be on holiday at the moment. Mathsci (talk) 02:44, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

• Echigo mole/A.K.Nole was discussed at length during the review along with Mikemikev in response to one of the five questions of Roger Davies. There is no reason why the review should be revisited just because The Devil's Advoacate missed it first time round. He does not seem fully aware of the background and has preferred to take private advice on the review from TrevelyanL85A2 who, although undoubtedly aware of what was happening in the review, chose not to participate even after being added as a party. Like the DeviantArt group, including the two site-banned users Occam and Ferahgo, The Devil's Advocate has chosen to concentrate matters on the banned user Echigo mole/A.K.Nole, a long term wikihounder, with a whole sleeping sock farm created in 2009. Echigo mole is engaged in acts of deception, harassment and disruption. The responses above of the Devil's Advocate do not seem helpful. The Devil's Advocate made a conscious decision to engage in private discussions with a topic banned user on matters he knew could not be discussed on wikipedia. That private exchange unfortunately now connects The Devil's Advocate with other members of the DeviantArt group, including the site-banned editors Occam and Ferahgo. On the talk page of an arbitrator, The Devil's Advocate has also pressed to see private evidence provided during the review (i.e. by Occam and Ferahgo). To my knowledge nobody except arbitrators has been shown that evidence. Apart from one exception fairly late on, I was not shown any submissions provided by Occam or Ferahgo. On-wikipedia and off-wikipedia (on Wikipediocracy) The Devil's Advocate has made a series of statements about parties involved in the review which show either confusion or a mireading of the review and the preceding request for amendment. That might be an accident on his part. For example during the review historic versions of the Fur Affinity attack pages were displayed (here, here. here) but The Devil's Advocate, from his statements on Wikipediocracy, only had access to later versions, after offensive comments had been removed. I am not aware of other circumstances where a single user has made a request for a review to be rerun after he missed it first time round. That would appear to be a waste of everybody's time. The Devil's Advocate has gone further by involving himself in private communications with part of the DeviantArt group and making a series of unjustifiable assertions. Perhaps that was not his intention, but his submission favours banned disruptive trolls, known to arbitators, other checkusers and administrators, over established editors engaged in improving this encyclopedia. Mathsci (talk) 07:33, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
• Echigo mole has unfortunately become active again as Rue Cardinale (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). Editors should be aware that the username Rue Cardinale was chosen because it is the road in which I live in Aix-en-Provence; in the past sockpuppets of Echigo mole, now blocked, have attempted to write hoax or undue content about that street on wikipedia. The edits of this particular sock troll, blocked indefinitely by FPaS, were removed from User talk:TrevelyanL85A2 by Hipocrite and then restored by TrevelyanL85A2 with a bizarre edit summary. MastCell's analysis of TrevelyanL85A2's edits (vis-a-vis Echigo mole) hits the nail on the head. Why are people wasting time with this nonsense? Penwhale, you could easily have double checked with FPaS. Mathsci (talk) 21:56, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
• Note also that TrevelyanL85A2 had already been informed about this RfAm by The Devil's Advocate (see above). Mathsci (talk) 22:10, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
• Examined individually, some might argue that all the edits of Rue Cardinale (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) were fine. Presumably they could say the same about the edits of Keystone Crow (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). On the other hand those accounts were blocked indefinitely fairly quickly by administrators, per WP:CLUE and WP:DUCK. Going back on-topic, the only issue that has arisen here with any relevance to the arbcom review is the deliberate bypassing of a topic ban or a ban through a proxy-editor, through email or other off-wiki communication. Mathsci (talk) 04:11, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
• AQFK has claimed elsewhere that I had edit-warred on User talk:TrevelyanL85A2. The editing history of that page shows that not to be the case. Note that AQFK comes to this page in response to the trolling edits of Echigo mole as Rue Cardinale. Good grief. Mathsci (talk) 04:39, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
• The Devil's Advocate left problematic comments on Newyorkbrad's talk page. I reported those at WP:WQA where another report about TDA had recently been filed. Only in death heavily edited my comment there, without any justification. Prior to posting here Only in death posted twice on my talk page, once after being explicitly requested not to, because I was (and still am) busy adding quite tricky mathematical content spread over several articles. The edits of Only in death were unhelpful and discourteous on WP:WQA; he is now treating this arbcom page as if it were WP:ANI. Ah yes, ... that famous peanut gallery. Mathsci (talk) 10:37, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Only in death, please do not remove editors' comments on wikipedia pages, whether you agree with them or not. Doing so is just disruptive and can result in blocks. You can remove them on your talk page, but not elsewhere, except in exceptional circumstance. Per WP:DENY, that includes malicious trolling by idenitified community banned editors. I removed all the fake RfAR notifications in June by Keystone Crow that had not already been removed by the recipients (e.g. MastCell). Mathsci (talk) 10:55, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

• Roger: I have never banned people from editing my user talk page. When there is a more appropriate place for them to edit or if their edits are unhelpful, I politely request that they do not comment there. I think that happened with Andriabenia (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), who turned out be a sockpuppet of a banned user. My talk page has been semiprotected at various stages because of abusive edits by either Mikemikev or Echigo mole. Although my memory is fuzzy about wikipedia in March, I think the protection then happened because of the horrific youtube links added by Mikemikev after the death of Steven Rubenstein. Since you ask. Mathsci (talk) 11:37, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
• QFAK: there was no edit war, but you have continued to make exaggerated claims. There were two edits on May 27 to remove a trolling comment by an ipsock of Echigo mole from his standard IP range (see Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Echigo mole); and one edit on June 10 to remove the notification by Keystone Crow (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) of an abusive RfAR that was deleted instaneously by Courcelles who simultaneously blocked the Echigo mole sock. Similar messages were removed by me from about 10 other user pages. Here once more is the edit history for Johnuniq removed the fake RfAr notification two further times in June after TrevelyanL85A2 restored it twice (with no clear benefit to either himself or wikipedia, as Johnuniq has said). Mathsci (talk) 12:09, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
• Neither AQFK not TDA has heeded the warning from Newyorkbrad. Both have repeated false claims of edit warring (see above). Both these editors have been subject to several arbcom restrictions before (in AQFK's case 6 months for 911 and and two years for CC). Neither of them know me from Adam, yet base their exaggerated rants on 2 edits by me in late May and early June. The recent edits of Rue Cardinale (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), were reverted by others. But no, they are only interested in those two minor edits, both justified by WP:DENY. If that isn't trolling on arbcom pages, what is? Mathsci (talk) 17:17, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
• TrevelyanL85A2's response is almost indistinguishable from the statements of Ferahgo-the-Assassin that led to her site ban. It can be safely be presumed that it was prepared in collaboration with her and Captain Occam. The most shocking part of TrevelyanL85A2's statement is his blithe endorsement of Echigo mole's editing as Keystone Crow (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). Echigo mole is a community banned editor and TrevelyanL85A2 is not at liberty to give him the thumbs up. (Just before his site-ban, Occam behaved similarly acting as a proxy for Grundle2600.) The second problem is with TrevelyanL85A2's mentioning of a "dispute". There is no dispute. There is, however, an explicit topic ban which prohibits TrevelyanL85A2 from agitating against me in an Occamesque way on wikipedia. He is doing so now. Presumably he expressed himself in the same way in his private discussions with TDA which preceded this meritless request. Neither of them should have engaged in that activity. TrevelyanL85A2 seems to think he can interpret the rules of wikipedia as it suits him: it's all a big WP:GAME. But that is not how wikipedia works. It is primarily about creating scholarly articles to build a high quality encyclopedia; it is not a role-playing war game. Possibly on the advice of others, TrevelyanL85A2 chose not to comment in the review, when he was free to make any statements he wished (within reasonable bounds). That is not the case now. Using Roger Davies' question as a loophole to launch a full-blown Ferahgian attack on me, with fatuous claims about me, is not a good sign. Instead of condemning Echigo mole's harrassment, he has chosen to use Keystone Crow's RfAr as evidence against me. The idea that 3 meritless arbcom requests, two of them due to him and the first to a pernicous banned troll, must indicate something. Does TrevelyanL85A2 really think he can use the actions of a banned editor to make negative statements about me. It is hard to see any redeeming features in TrevelyanL85A2's editing. His account looks like a disruption-only account at the moment. Mathsci (talk) 04:59, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
• The Devil's Advocate was asked to stop commenting here by Newyorkbrad. Instead of heeding that warning, he wikilawyered on NYB's talk page and continued his pro-Echigo mole campaign here. Mathsci (talk) 06:00, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
• Newyorkbrad (and other arbitrators): Thank you very much for this clarification, which is a welcome relief to me as the victim of Echigo mole. During the arbcom review I was specifically asked about harassment on wikipedia and I gave a detailed response concerning both Echigo mole and Mikemikev. There was no corresponding finding. That has left matters open for continued disruption connected with Echigo mole's activities, in particular Echigo mole's fake Rfar, TrevelyanL85A2's declined Rfar and this joint RfAm of The Devil's Advocate (apparently prepared in consultation with TrevelyanL85A2). In the event that there is a motion concerning Echigo mole, please could it make an explicit statement about the history of long term harassment and the way in which this person has systematically tried to create problems? (In the review I indicated that he had even given evidence in the original 2010 R&I case as "IP from Sheffield".) Since the closure of the review, quite a lot of time on wikipedia has been consumed by the renewed activity of Echigo mole. It unfortuantely requires vigilance on my part because of his penchant for leaving clues as to my real life identity, which other users will not necessarily pick up on as quickly as me. Thanks in advance, Mathsci (talk) 15:37, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
• The Devil's Advocate was given a crystal clear warning by Newyorkbrad, as mentioned above. He has subsequently ignored that warning. This problematic conduct is not very different from the disruption that precipitated his six month 911 topic ban. Mathsci (talk) 22:13, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
• TrevelyanL85A2 seems to have broken his topic ban on his user talk page two more times now. He appears to be breaking all the editing norms on wikipedia, including acting as a proxy for two site-banned users. He has written on his user talk page: " I don't know if I can get the arbitrators to understand the part of the problem for which Mathsci is responsible, but I want to try." That is a flagrant breach of his topic ban. Mathsci (talk) 22:48, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
• The Devil's Advocate's latest edits concerning Echigo mole/A.K.Nole: Please could arbitrators instruct The Devil's Advocate to stop interfering with matters related to sockpuppets of Echigo mole/A.K.Nole? He removed Junior Wrangler from a list of suspected sockpuppets in the userspace of a declared alternative account where a provisional LTA file is stored (mainly before I had access to the tools to do searcher over IP ranges). Junior Wrangler's first edit to Spirella matches early A.K.Nole hoaxes, he edited Talk:Château of Vauvenargues; and the choice of username followed by low-level mathematics editing are typical A.K.Nole. He also removed the "suspected sockpuppet" tag on User:Penny Birch. This also seems to be an occarionally used, partially discarded account operated by Echigo mole. The timing of the creation is right, the choice of user name, the first edits like those of A.K.Nole and his friends (Kenilworth Terrace and Groomtech, first editing together as The Wiki House) concerned the University of Gloucestershire in Cheltenham. The editing on Talk:Château of Vauvenargues matches that of Junior Wrangler. The activities of both have been sporadic enough not to be susceptible to checkuser (like the editors creating hoaxes earlier this year on articles related to Aix-en-Provence and Rue Cardinale). The Devil's Advocate has been told to stay well away from anything concerning Echigo mole/A.K.Nole on wikipedia. Often the banned user's edits refer to my real life identity, sometimes my own publications or lectures. I don't really want The Devil's Advocate now digging about for details in edits which have not been deleted, unduly causing me distress and anxiety. That ahows no consideration for the problems connected with abusive wikihounding; in fact quitr the comtrary, these actions are disruptive and deliberately provocative, designed to cause offense. (That was already true of the Request for Amendment itself.) The Devil's Advocate should also stay out of the userspace of my alternative accounts. The instructions from Newyorkbrad on his talk page were very clear: that he should leave matters concerning Echigo mole/A.K.Nole well alone. At this stage, he seems to be doing the exact opposite of what arbitrators have requested him to do. He has needlessly made edits in the userspace of one of my alternative declared accounts reserved for recording information about Echigo mole socks and ip socks (in one edit summary The Devil's Advocate added the words WP:POLEMIC when removing a listed suspected sock). If he cannot avoid making edits like this related to Echigo mole and suspected socks, please could he now be blocked to stop further disruption and provocation? This has gone on long enough and it's only getting worse as he continues doing exactly the opposite of what he's been told. Thanks, Mathsci (talk) 09:41, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
• More nonsense from The Devil's Advocate. In that diff, he makes negative comments about Clavier-Übung III, which I understand is regarded as a well written article. I have no idea why The Devil's Advocate feels that he has to follow me around on wikipedia, making negative remarks like this. It's quite unhelpful. Perhaps he's trying to emulate Echigo mole as a wikihounder? One is quite enough. Mathsci (talk) 23:11, 2 August 2012 (UTC)
• Cla68's comments about my wikistalker seem unhelpful and clueless. I hope that Newyorkbrad's motion is now enacted so that there is no possibility that any form of this time-wasting RfAm can occur at a future date. Let sleeping dogs lie. Mathsci (talk) 19:33, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
• TrevelyanL85A2's priorities seem misplaced as far as the interests of wikipedia are concerned. There is no reason to distinguish between different socks of the same banned user, e.g. the ipsock 94.197.162.237, the sock Keystone Crow or the sock Rue Cardinale. The two edits I made on May 27 and the one edit on June 10 are no longer under discussion. Two arbitrators have commented on how to handle Echigo mole's disruption. TrevelyanL85A2 appears not to have heeded their comments. Instead he has tried to reopen and prolong a discussion concerning Echigo mole and his other favourite topic. Mathsci (talk) 08:08, 5 August 2012 (UTC)
• Any edits in the IP ranges 94.197.1.1/16 and 94.196.1.1/16 that vaguely concern me have been made exclusively by Echigo mole. That is easy enough to check using the usual tools. Arbitrators and other checkusers have long been aware of that. The negative nature of the edits of this banned user is not open for debate. On the other hand, in what now appear to be a series of calculated bad faith edits, The Devil's Advocate has taken the opposite point of view. The Devil's Advocate appears to be spending his time justifying or enabling the edits of a community banned sock troll. Mathsci (talk) 22:42, 5 August 2012 (UTC)
• TrevelyanL85A2 has requested that The Devil's Advocate lobby arbitrators because he is still unsatisfied. After a two week wikibreak, Trevlyanl85A2 has stated, "I think maybe if you go to one of the arbitrators about this, it should be someone other than Roger Davies. I don't trust Roger Davies to know how to resolve the current situation, because I think he has some responsibility for why it exists. He was the one who proposed that SightWatcher and I be given interaction bans with everyone who's edited R&I articles, at a time when I hadn't edited them in four months and SightWatcher hadn't edited them in a year." Mathsci (talk) 01:51, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
• Jclemens recused from this request. It's not quite clear why he is commenting now. Mathsci (talk) 04:10, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
• Jclemens has unrecused himself. Could he please now comment on the issues concerning Echigo mole socks that other arbitrators have raised? No other arbitrators have made any suggestion that I have been "gaming the system", so Jclemens seems to be alone on that. Mathsci (talk) 05:33, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
• Three users have initiated requests of this kind all related to the trolling of a banned user: Keystone Crow, TrevelyanL85A2 and The Devil's Advocate. All three of these editors are subject to restrictions of some type on their editing (e.g. the first is blocked as a sock of the banned user). If anybody has any bright ideas about how to stop Echigo mole and his socks creating disruption on wikipedia that would be welcome. Nobody has been able to so far. I don't edit in R&I nor did I start this request. My editing history is clear enough: mostly content edits in geometric function theory at the moment requiring a lot of effort. Vecrumba seems to have mistaken me for another user, I'm not quite sure who.Mathsci (talk) 00:59, 17 August 2012 (UTC)
• Newyorkbrad has suggested adding a second motion to AGK's motion. Since SightWatcher has now commented here in a highly problematic way, perhaps more is required. Previously SightWatcher was given this warning by an arbitrator which at that stage apparently he took to heart. Prior to that MBisanz and Ed Johnston gave SightWatcher unequivocal warnings that he would be given a lengthy block if his editing patterns did not change. After a 6 week wikibreak he has ignored the warnings and made militating edits above that are indistingusihable from the project space edits of Captain Occam and Ferahgo-the-Assassin. With only 4 very minor content edits in the last 12 months, and now more evidence of proxy-editing and violations of his topic ban, even after mutiple warnings from administrators, what exactly is SightWatcher doing on this project apart from acting as a harassment-only account on behalf of site-banned users? Mathsci (talk) 05:26, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Statement by Johnuniq

Amendment 2 would provide R&I editors (and the banned user) with a tool to provoke Mathsci. Consideration of this amendment is not required now as there is no evidence of a problem (apart from the dilemma over whether WP:DENY should be applied to a banned user posting on the talk page of an R&I editor). If required, this matter can be addressed at some future time, if Mathsci becomes engaged in R&I topics with conduct that is believed to be unhelpful. Johnuniq (talk) 01:47, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

@TrevelyanL85A2: How does it help the encyclopedia to keep a message from a banned user? TrevelyanL85A2's comment at "01:40, 5 August 2012" was made just before removing the Sinebot signature of the banned user's name (diff)—why not remove the message? Hipocrite removed the message (rv banned user) and that edit summary explains the situation. Yet, without seeking clarification, TrevelyanL85A2 restored the message (Please do not remove edits others have made to my talk page without my consent. I keep an open door policy on my page, please respect my wishes). Editors are supposed to use Misplaced Pages to help the encyclopedia, and encouraging a banned user due to an "open door policy" is not a good use of a talk page. The question posed by Roger Davies at "11:08, 27 July 2012" remains unanswered. Johnuniq (talk) 02:45, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

• The word "gaming" has been used a number of times, but I am perplexed by the recent mention of gaming at 03:13, 16 August 2012 by Jclemens. It is very understandable that Mathsci would want DENY applied to a long term abuser who has been harassing Mathsci—indeed, that's something we all should want, and there would be no issue if TrevelyanL85A2 did not insist on a right to keep comments from the banned user. I think Roger Davies (at 16:51, 3 August 2012) summed up the situation well with "to characterise Mathsci's reversion of harassment by a banned editor as gaming is really appalling".

  Is it this comment by Mathsci (see thread here) that is regarded as "gaming"? That is just a plain description of what had occurred—TrevelyanL85A2 can easily avoid issues like that by not commenting on R&I: just stick to the question of whether there is a right to retain harassing comments. Johnuniq (talk) 10:46, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Statement by Silver seren

I'm not sure about whether the Amendments should or should not be enacted, though bullet 2 of Amendment 2 makes logical sense to me, because it's quite clear that there is evidence of a problem. Mathsci has been clearly gaming the system in order to remove perceived opponents from the topic area, taking actions that are sure to provoke a desired response so an Enforcement request can then be filed against the person. Seriously, at this point, I think everyone needs to truly consider blocking Mathsci for some period of time for his rampant and obvious gaming and, to be honest, harassment of other users. Silverseren 10:27, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

@Johnuniq: Whether the user is a sock or not, it was indeed appropriate for me to be notified, considering my involvement in the prior discussion, and the notification itself was neutral. Silverseren 11:15, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

@Mathsci: I also restored the comment on my talk page, as did Penwhale on theirs. Any user is allowed to restore the edits of a banned user so long as they aren't a copyvio or attacking another user, per WP:BAN. Silverseren 22:28, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

• Extra comment: It appears that Mathsci is enacting the "attack and discredit all of your opponents to win" tactic. Silverseren 01:52, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

@Professor marginalia: You should take care not to only quote the parts of the policy you like and ignore the rest, as BAN clearly states that any user is allowed to reintroduce the edits of a banned user so long as the edits do not violate our policies, are copyvios, or are attacking another person. And the attacking part is only for direct attacks. There's no Wikilawyering of "any edit by this person is an attack on this person" either, that would just be ridiculous. Silverseren 06:51, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

@Professor marginalia: No, they shouldn't because that's not the point of that section of BAN. The point is that any editor is free to reinstate an edit by a banned user so long as the edit doesn't violate other policies. Therefore, anyone is allowed to reinstate comments on their talk page by a banned user if they want to, as I have done multiple times before, as have others. Silverseren 01:23, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

@Newyorkbrad: In short: No. Silverseren 01:25, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

First, please don't use bold print like that; it's unspeakably rude. Second, please explain why you object to Newyorkbrad's comment(s). Thanks, AGK 13:56, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Because what he is suggesting is directly in conflict with the community written policy of WP:BAN and Arbcom has absolutely no jurisdiction over such. Any user is allowed to reinstate the edits of a banned user so long as the edit itself isn't violating other policies (copyvio, attacks, NPOV to some extent). In this case, Trev, myself, and others were reinstating a neutral message informing us of a discussion, which is something we are completely allowed to do within policy. Silverseren 03:08, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Statement by Penwhale

Like I said above, MathSci probably needs to stay away from Trev's talk page. Beyound that, I am not sure what to do here.

And @Johnuniq: It was appropriate for me to be notified, considering my involvement in previous AE. - Penwhale | 11:36, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

@Roger: Trev has not posted on this thread because he was apparently requested to refrain from commenting. I trust that someone else should notify Trev in this case. (Also, he hasn't done much within the last week according to his contributions, so I am not sure what to take from it.) - Penwhale | 13:22, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Note @Roger: Ever since MBisanz posted this warning at WT:AC to SightWatcher, he's had no contributions, period. - Penwhale | 10:48, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Statement by MastCell

There is no conceivable way in which repeatedly restoring the user-talkpage edits of a banned harrassment sockpuppet helps the encyclopedia. Restoring such edits - or litigating their restoration - appears to be TrevelyanL85A2's sole focus on Misplaced Pages over the past 6 months.

Presumably, the previous ArbCom restriction was crafted in the hope that TrevelyanL85A2 would find something, anything to do on Misplaced Pages besides continue these old disputes. It's obvious that's not going to happen. Every further second spent on this is a second wasted, and frankly the sheer volume of vexatious litigation associated with this editor-or-group-of-affiliated-editors rivals anything I've seen in the post-Abd era. MastCell  20:22, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

A short statement by uninvolved A Quest for Knowledge

I concur with Penwhale that MathSci should stay away from TrevelyanL85A2's talk page. However, I also concur with MastCell's observation that TrevelyanL85A2 has not contributed to Misplaced Pages in any meaningful way for the last six months. Indeed, TrevelyanL85A2 has not edited a single article since January 13, 2012. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 03:48, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

@Mathsci: As an editor completely uninvolved in R&I, I correctly pointed out that you participated in an edit-war. Your claim that I come to this page "in response to the trolling edits of Echigo mole as Rue Cardinale" is flatly wrong. This page is on my watchlist and has been for quite some time. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 11:45, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

@Mathsci: I find it ironic that you would accuse me of continuing "to make exaggerated claims" when you were the one to bring up the edit-warring, not me. Anyway, back to what I was saying, I think you should stay away from TrevelyanL85A2's talk page. There's no need for you personally to remove these posts. Let someone else do it. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 14:15, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

@MathSci: I've made two points: 1) I agreed with Penwhale that MathSci should stay away from TrevelyanL85A2's talk page. 2) I agreed with MastCell's observation that TrevelyanL85A2 has not contributed to Misplaced Pages for the last six months. It was a very short statement. You're the one who keeps harping about edit-warring, not me. The battleground mentality that you're displaying for all the Arbs to see is highly disappointing, especially when you've already been admonished for this very same behavior. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 17:46, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

@MathSci: Editors may participate within reason in dispute resolution and noticeboard discussions if their own conduct has been mentioned. By my own admittedly crude count, TrevelyanL85A2 has been mentioned by name over 30 times in this discussion, and I think that it's pretty clear that that the discussion on his talk page is a good faith attempt at dispute resolution. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 00:11, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
@AGK (as first proposer) and PhilKnight and Newyorkbrad (who voted in favor of this resolution), can you please explain why involved editors such as MathSci should be the only ones to enforce removal from TrevelyanL85A2's talk page? This seems to be the provervial 'elephant in the room.' Maybe this isn't your intent, but it is the result of the motion. Can you please explain further? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 01:32, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Statement by Professor marginalia

Games. Games. Games.

What's needed here is some serious introspection how the gaming (which is transparent, as I see it, and is frittering away frillions of hours of volunteer time here) can be curtailed. I don't have so much free time to give back to wikipedia lately but I'm here virtually every other day looking up something I want to know about. How does it seriously help this project to squander this much volunteer time in mindless, pointless bureaucratize over how and who to handle a site banned troll obviously stirring up crazy on another topic banned user's userpage? What difference does it make which editor removes those edits that which obviously don't belong here?

The last thing we need here is to give sanctioned troublemakers new avenues to disrupt. This has been a 2 years long clown circus already. Will restricting Mathsci from Trevelyan's talk page end this? How? Trevelyan's not the first - he's deliberately pressed those buttons to exploit the precedent when Ferahgo objected to Mathsci editing her talk page. And I'm half convinced she tacked that direction because she'd seen him chase editors off his own talk page. When others besides Mathsci removed the same comments, Trevelyan's objection persisted. Why except to escalate? Obviously Trevelyan'd read these comments already, and could return to them through edit history as we all appreciate as one of the strengths of this platform. So would it really result in less disruption to demand Mathsci appeal to a proxy to remove a banned troll's comments? How so? Off-site appeals, they won't like one bit and will decry as off-site collusion. On-site appeals they'll decry as "Mathsci who is restricted from such-and-such proxied the action be done by someone else".

To diagnose the games going on in R/I is difficult; blenderize reality TV, Tartuffe, Braveheart, Paddy Chayefsky, The Secret Agent, Scott Pilgrim and you'd get some sense of the aroma of the wikinutty that wafts in to wreak havoc with legit sourced content decision making. Mice at play. Then comes arbcom, and Bleak House gets tossed in the blender.

I think to curtail the gaming we need to stop rewarding it. Professor marginalia (talk) 08:58, 27 July 2012‎

Relevant policy position:

A ban is not merely a request to avoid editing "unless they behave". The measure of a site ban is that even if the editor were to make good edits, permitting them to re-join the community poses enough risk of disruption, issues, or harm, that they may not edit at all, even if the edits seem good Anyone is free to revert any edits made in defiance of a ban. By banning an editor, the community has determined that the broader problems, due to their participation, outweigh the benefits of their editing, and their edits may be reverted without any further reason. (WP:BAN) Professor marginalia (talk) 01:27, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

@Silverseren: The sections I quote above make no reference to "attacks", expressed or implied. If an editor supports the message or content of an edit made by banned editor on a talk page they should sign their own name to it rather than further enable banned users to continue editing via socks. Professor marginalia (talk) 14:23, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

@Newyorkbrad - Please make an motion to that effect. An unofficial statement from an arb won't be enough to deter disruption in these situations because key players are now using the trolling as openings. It's a ploy, much like we've seen over and over for more than 2 years. They aren't seeking constructive advice. It's all been about exploiting every opportunity. Professor marginalia (talk) 20:46, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

Statement by Only in Death

I dont particularly want to be here as I have quite a bit of respect for Mathsci and his work, but his needling of his opponents is going to far. This is particularly troubling for me as its basically taking potshots at TDA over a completely unrelated matter to himself (an issue with a GA review for gods sake) and he is using this request, and NYB's (and TDA's issue with them) comments below to do it. It contributes towards showing his relentless attack-mode mentality when he is pursuing a target and it needs to stop. Its got to the point where his actions are impacting on other editors, ones completely unrelated to his issues with his sockpuppet harrassers. And its totally un-necessary. Only in death does duty end (talk) 09:34, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

If anyone wishes to look further, please check the history of WQA and Mathsci's talkpage. As he has requested I dont post to his talkpage because it 'disturbs his difficult content editing' I will not be taking his inapproprite spreading of his conflict further with him. Only in death does duty end (talk) 09:50, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Additional - if anyone wishes to take up my actions in removing part of Mathsci's comments at WQA (someone else has reverted his edits here - no idea why), feel free to ask via email or on my talkpage as I do not want to disrupt this further by agitating Mathsci any more. Suffice to say I think the above interactions demonstrate why R&I case needs amending/clarifying as per TDA has outlined. Only in death does duty end (talk) 11:12, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

@Roger - Just FYI, I respect Mathsci's wish to not have people post on his talkpage if he so chooses. Unfortunately I didnt see the request until after my second post at which point I promptly self-reverted it, although I suspect the damage was done and his concentration already broken for a second time. Only in death does duty end (talk) 11:55, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Statement by CIreland

Echigo mole is an extremely pernicious banned sockpuppeteer who has long pursued a vendetta against Mathsci; the very length of this behaviour must itself be disturbing for Mathsci. Additionally, Echigo mole has repeatedly attempted to intimidate Mathsci with "We know where you live" style edits, referencing Mathsci's place of residence.

One of the favorite tactics of Echigo mole is to seek out editors with whom MathSci is in dispute precisely to make it difficult for Mathsci to remove edits to their User talk pages without creating tension. This very amendment request, so far as it concerns Mathsci, enables and extends this abuse even if such was not the intent of the filer.

What is needed in order to address this long-standing problem is not any form of restriction or sanction for Mathsci but rather a remedy that prohibits the restoration of edits by Echigo mole's sockpuppets. Although such is not permitted by the current policy, I would personally like to see Revision Deletion of such edits allowed in order to mitigate against the possibility of editors not wholly aware of the background restoring problematic edits in good faith. Such good faith restorations have occurred in the past and have only served to further Echigo mole's agenda by drawing Mathsci into conflict. CIreland (talk) 23:10, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Statement by TrevelyanL85A2

I was not planning to comment here, but Roger Davies is asking me a question so I'll answer it.

There are two reasons I don't want Echigo Mole's posts in my user talk to be removed. First, I care about having the the right to decide what I do and don't want in my user talk, even if it's from a sock, as long as it doesn't violate policies. Echigo Mole's conduct elsewhere might be objectionable, but his posts in my user talk were just notifications or civilly-worded advice. Keeping it there doesn't violate WP:POLEMIC or anything else.

Second, I object to which editors are removing it and what I think their reason is. I would object much less if it were done by an uninvolved admin. Mathsci has said a few times he regards his dispute with me as an extension of his dispute with Ferahgo, and refers to me as "unfinished business". The other editors removing the posts, Johnuniq and Hipocrite, also are Ferahgo's and Captain Occam's old opponents. It feels like this group is trying to perpetuate their old dispute in my user talk, and I don't want that.

This began when I had been trying to avoid this group of editors since January. After avoiding them and the R&I topic for a few months, I realized I could not do anything to make them leave me alone. Part of how I realized this was that I saw at the same time Mathsci also was removing posts from SightWatcher's user talk, and making new accusations about him in arbitration discussions, at a time when SightWatcher had avoided this group and the R&I topic for the past year. How can I ever escape this conflict if Mathsci even pursues people who had nothing to do with him and his articles for the past year? There is nothing I can do.

If you count the arbitration request the sockpuppet made in June, this is the third time this issue has been brought before ArbCom in two months. And each time, the group of editors objecting to Mathsci's conduct is a little larger than it was before. If the arbitrators decline to act on this request, what do they hope will happen? The community clearly is not able to resolve it. If ArbCom rejects this request now, it probably will just continue to grow and end up on their plate again in another month.--TrevelyanL85A2 (talk) 00:42, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Roger Davies: I didn't realize when "Rue Cardinale" commented in my user talk that this name meant something.  However please note this was not one of the socks that Mathsci reverted.  All of Mathsci's reverts in my user talk were of comments from socks that had inoffensive names, or were posting from IPs.  As Mathsci never reverted this sock, it's inaccurate to say his reverts were justified because of its username.--TrevelyanL85A2 (talk) 01:40, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

Statement by aprock

Short and sweet: Echingo Mole wins. A motion which clarifies his role in this soup stirring is about the only good that can come out of this mess. aprock (talk) 17:19, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Statement by Enric Naval

Trev's excuses are noww bordering in ridiculous. He removes only the offending username saying that the comment itself wasn't removed specifically by Mathsci . But this was twice removed by mathsci, and reverted by Trev while asking Mathsci not to edit his talk page again, a petition that he repeated later. That's why someone else removed it, because Trev didn't accept Mathsci's removals. Oh, wait, it's even more ridiculous that I thought. Trev is saying that community-banned harassing socks can post anything they like as long that specific edit doesn't make a harassment. Please end this circus of excuses.

There are some obvious things that need to be made more obvious. Please make a motion saying explicitly and clearly that nobody should restore the edits of harassing socks, independently of who removes them. If Trev or anyone else restores any of those comments again, block them immediately and remove the comment. --Enric Naval (talk) 10:09, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

Further discussion

Statements here may address all the amendments, but individual statements under each proposed amendment are preferred. If there is only one proposed amendment, then no statements should be added here.

Statement by yet another editor

The only question worth answering here is if Mathsci (or anyone else) has the right to remove the comments of an abusive sockpuppeter per WP:DENY after having been restored and responcibility for them taken on by Trev.

if yes, Trev is to cease restoring the text when removed by someone (including Mathsci) citing WP:DENY.

if no, Mathsci (and others) are to cease removing restored edits and any harassment or incivility contained in the restored edits are Trevs to answer for as if he personally wrote them. If the restored edits breach Trev's topic ban, he is responcible for that too.

Everyone is just rehashing that question from different angles. 204.101.237.139 (talk) 22:34, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Statement by Cla68

"TDA's stage management activities even more inappropriate"? Are you all focusing on the big picture here? Please don't shoot the messenger. Address the concern. Are your rulings being played? If so, fix it and ban the editor who is doing so. If not, say so and explain why. Use some critical thinking, avoid myopia, and interpret this situation to the vision you had when you first ran for Arbcom. Stay focused. Cla68 (talk) 16:46, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

Do a banned editor's comments on some random usertalkpage necessarily constitute harassment? Cla68 (talk) 16:55, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

Where in this diff is Mathsci's home address? How many of the offending diffs contain Mathsci's home address, and were they in response to Mathsci's actions? Look at both sides, please. Cla68 (talk) 17:01, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

If it helps, here in Japan in an automobile accident the authorities try to lay blame to both sides, because both sides usually deserve some blame. From reading the comments above, that is the situation here. I suggest using a sliding scale, what percentage to blame is the banned editor, and what percentage to blame is Mathsci and others? Assign a percentage, then give them an equivalent number of days vacation from Misplaced Pages. I guarantee you will see a change in their editing behavior. Cla68 (talk) 17:05, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

Statement by SightWatcher

I just noticed what Arbcom is suggesting here. I know The Devil's Advocate asked me to not comment but I have something to say about AGK's proposed amendment.

TDA made this request to address the problem of how Mathsci can deliberately provoke me and Trevelyan, and we can't do anything about it because we aren't allowed to comment on his behavior. I don't see how the proposed amendment will address that problem. I assume Mathsci would be considered an editor who has "made significant contributions" to the R&I topic, so the amendment won't change anything meaningful about the situation that led to this request, and the situation will just continue until Arbcom has to deal with it again.

I'm very confused by Arbcom's reluctance to address what I see as the central issue, which is Mathsci's battleground behavior. In the recent request about Youreallycan, a few arbitrators said something that needs addressing about YRC's behavior is how he's trying to mount an offense against the editors criticizing him instead of addressing others' concerns about his behavior (see for example SirFozzie's comment here). AFAICT, the request was declined only because the RFC needs to finish first. How is Mathsci's recent behavior different from YRC's? In this thread seven other editors in addition to me and Trevelyan have taken issue with Mathsci's behavior: The Devil's Advocate, Penwhale, Silver Seren, A Quest for Knowledge, Only in Death, Vecrumba, and Cla68. Mathsci's response is several screens of text attacking these editors, including about things that have nothing to do with the requested amendment (such as The Devil's Advocate's topic ban from 9/11 articles). A few months ago Mathsci did the same thing in this thread and SilkTork warned him that he was showing the same battleground attitude he'd just been admonished for. Mathsci dismissed SilkTork's warning as "trolling". I expressed concern here that this meant Mathsci's behavior that SilkTork warned him about was going to continue, and I was right.

Arbcom knows that an admonishment and then an additional warning from an arbitrator wasn't enough to change Mathsci's battleground behavior, and they think this behavior needs addressing when someone else does it. The community also seems to be being very clear that they think Mathsci's behavior is a large part of the problem. Arbcom has a responsibility to serve the community, and they have a responsibility to be consistent about what type of behavior is allowed. It seems like they also should care about finding a solution that won't make them have to keep dealing with the same situation again and again. -SightWatcher (talk) 03:36, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Clerk notes

This section is for administrative notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

• Recuse due to previous AE amongst other things. - Penwhale | 11:38, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Arbitrator views and discussion

• Awaiting statements. However, I would clarify that while Mathsci has e-mailed the committee regarding this matter, no private statement or evidence has been taken into consideration. Only under certain circumstances do we receive private evidence or hold proceedings in camera. AGK 01:19, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

• In relation to Amendment 1, I have proposed a motion below. AGK 23:31, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
• In relation to Amendment 2, I will say only that I do not think this issue needs to be re-examined, and at this time I will not be proposing (nor supporting) a motion that grants the request in Amendment 2. AGK 23:37, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

• I'll recuse, even though I've only ever interacted with these editors and this topic as an uninvolved administrator, my efforts to keep all parties working constructively have been dismal failures of the bitten-hand variety, resulting in the recent attempt to name me as a party the last time this matter showed up here. Jclemens (talk) 06:34, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
  • Mathsci pointed out that I'd recused, which I'd forgotten. Since my recusal was elective in the first place, I appear to have de facto rescinded it by voting on the motion. Jclemens (talk) 04:24, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
• The editors who are already banned and topic-banned need to abide by the prior rulings, and editors who are proxying for them or carrying on on their behalf need to stop. While the banning policy contemplates that editors in good standing may, in effect, sponsor and adopt edits made by banned users, I strongly recommend (and we may want to adopt this in a decision) that people not do so with respect to this particular topic, because the behavior that led to some of these bans was egregious and the edits are generally not helpful. Mathsci should stay away from the talkpages of his adversaries (reverting edits from banned users on those pages can safely be left to others), but other than that, I don't see the need for any remedy against him at this time. Finally, the involvement of at least one of the passersby in this dispute has been unhelpful, and I hope those who have acted inconsistently with the preceding suggestions will stop doing so before we have to start calling out names. Newyorkbrad (talk) 20:18, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
  • People continue to defend the practice of accepting and responding to posts from obvious sockpuppets of the banned users in this area, and reverting them back onto their userpages when they are deleted. Whether or not this practice might be acceptable under the banning policy in other contexts, given all the background here it is encouraging the banned users to continue their disruptive and harassing behavior, and therefore is not permissible. The editors who have commented in this discussion are therefore directed to refrain from any further on-wiki communication with the banned users on any page on Misplaced Pages (including their talkpages), and not to reinstate any comments by the banned users that may be removed by others, regardless of any claimed justification for doing so under any policy or guideline that, in less toxic contexts, might otherwise apply. At the moment, this is simply a friendly but firm suggestion from an individual arbitrator, but I'll be glad to offer a formal motion to this effect, enforceable by significant and increasing blocks, if that is what becomes necessary to put an end to this disruption. Newyorkbrad (talk) 14:37, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
• Various questions:
  • @ Mathsci: I'm not seeing "banning" people from your talk page as being helpful. Why not simply remove the messages after you've read them?
  • @ The Devil's Advocate: Are you seriously suggesting Mathsci is gaming the system when he reverts the posts of a banned user who has long been harassing him and posting non-public information about him?
  • @ Trevelyan In the light of WP:UP#POLEMIC and WP:USERBIO, why do the named topic-banned editors believe such messages should be retained on their talk pages? (Could a clerk mention to them that I've asked this please and ask for their responses?)
  Otherwise, I reiterate what Brad has said.  Roger Davies 11:08, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
  • To clarify the core issues, the various guidelines (WP:UP#POLEMIC and WP:USERBIO) and essay (WP:DENY) discussed here simply reinforce the relevant policy:
    1. bans apply to all edits made by a banned editor;
    2. anyone is free to revert any edits made in defiance of a ban;
    3. Editors who reinstate edits made by a banned editor take complete responsibility for the content.

    Given the clear policy position, it is a mystery to me why any of the editors who restored the posts could possibly think they were doing the right thing, especially when by restoring they were validating and endorsing the banned editor's posts. As this is about the thirtieth process involving the original topic-banned editors, and their successors, I agree entirely with Brad that robust measures are becoming increasingly appropriate.  Roger Davies 16:07, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

  • @Penwhale: I know that SW's last edit was a month ago. It makes TDA's stage management activities even more inappropriate.  Roger Davies 16:07, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
  • @Silver Seren. You are misinformed:
    • ArbCom is explicitly authorised by policy to: "interpret existing policy and guidelines, recognise and call attention to standards of user conduct, or create procedures through which policy and guidelines may be enforced". Obviously, that applies to your interpretation of banning policy.
    • The Banning policy does indeed provide an element of discretion over reversion when it says: "this does not mean that obviously helpful edits (such as fixing typos or undoing vandalism) must be reverted just because they were made by a banned editor, but the presumption in ambiguous cases should be to revert". However, it seems to me that the policy's context is "obviously helpful" article edits rather than clerking of ArbCom matters by a banned user. Furthermore, in this particular instance, it seems to me probable the "helpful messages" were simply a ruse to deliver a covert toxic payload at Mathsci's expense in a seemingly innocuous parcel.
    There is absolutely no reason whatsoever to assume good faith for anything this particular serial harasser/sockmaster posts.  Roger Davies 16:51, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
  • Re: The Suspected Socks sideshow I know that Mathsci has been sorely harassed, and for a protracted period, and that the tags say "suspected sockpuppet" but I would have thought a SPI report/CU check were probably the minima here. Can we completely drop this now?  Roger Davies 16:51, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
  • Re: TrevelyanL85A2 He's mentioned here and elsewhere. How, as part of the broader discussion, is he breaching a topic ban? That said, to characterise Mathsci's reversion of harassment by a banned editor as gaming is really appalling.  Roger Davies 16:51, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
  • @CLA68. Yes, beyond doubt, when the username posting them is the street where their longterm victim lives.  Roger Davies 16:57, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

Motion: Wording of Race & Intelligence Review topic-ban remedies

For this motion there are 13 active arbitrators. With 1 arbitrator abstaining, 7 support or oppose votes are a majority.

For reference, the two topic-ban remedies in question are worded as follows:

6.1) SightWatcher (talk · contribs) is indefinitely banned from editing and/or discussing the topic of Race and Intelligence on any page of Misplaced Pages, including user talk pages, or from participating in any discussion concerning the conduct of editors who have worked in the topic. This editor may however within reason participate in dispute resolution and noticeboard discussions if their own conduct has been mentioned.

7.1) TrevelyanL85A2 (talk · contribs) is indefinitely banned from editing and/or discussing the topic of Race and Intelligence on any page of Misplaced Pages, including user talk pages, or from participating in any discussion concerning the conduct of editors who have worked in the topic. This editor may however within reason participate in dispute resolution and noticeboard discussions if their own conduct has been mentioned.

Proposed:

In remedies 6.1 and 7.1 of the Race and intelligence Review, SightWatcher and TrevelyanL85A2 were banned from:

"participating in any discussion concerning the conduct of editors who have worked in the topic"

That sentence is replaced by:

"participating in any discussion concerning the conduct of editors who have made significant contributions to the topic".

Support

1. Proposed. As usual, whether a specific user who falls within the grey area between minor editing and long-term editing is a "significant contributor" will be a decision for the community's administrators (at WP:AE). With context and common sense, those administrators are able to make a sensible decision, and so reduce the gaming of the catch-all wording of these remedies. AGK 23:31, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

   Risker, this removes an opportunity to game the system. Currently, an enforcement action would be taken on request if these two users comment in any thread about any editor who has at any time edited a page about race and intelligence. AGK 21:27, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

2. Per AGK. PhilKnight (talk) 10:18, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
3. I think this will be helpful, although I don't think it is sufficient to resolve the issue, and anticipate that another motion will also be made. I am not convinced by Jclemens' comment regarding Mathsci. Newyorkbrad (talk) 15:12, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Not convinced that this is the right direction to go, given Mathsci's gaming of the one-way interaction ban. If we upgraded the existing interaction bans to two-way, I would probably support. Jclemens (talk) 03:13, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
2. As far as I can tell, this will have no effect on the application of sanctions in this area. Risker (talk) 18:28, 18 August 2012 (UTC)
3. I'm not convinced this is helpful. Given the convoluted history of the topic, and the collusion/shenanigans that have gone on for so long in the background, the AE admins need broad discretion to act if they decide sanctions are reasonable and appropriate.  Roger Davies 08:46, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

Abstain

1. SilkTork 23:04, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Comments by arbitrators

Amendment request: Sathya Sai Baba 2

Initiated by Andries Andries. (I had filed this request earlier in July but it was removed with my consent because I could not find time to provide diffs.) Andries (talk) 14:44, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request: No users except me.

Request to re-edit Sathya Sai Baba movement. I lost the rights to edit the article in Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Sathya Sai Baba 2. I lost to a great extent interest in the subject and have little time. But I still have a lot of good sources on the subject on the shelf. I bought them because they were recommended in arbcom case Sathya Sai Baba nr 1. I think it is a waste for Misplaced Pages and of other people's time and money when they are on my book shelf and only very few people have access to the contents. The article was never controversial, unlike Sathya Sai Baba. But after I stopped editing the Sathya Sai Central Trust, an organization that is part of the movement, has received much criticism. I was the only substantial contributor. I promise that I will revert max. once per week. I will not get involved in lengthy discussions or extensive, repeated dispute resolution, because I do not have time. One of the reasons why I request to re-edit is that nobody seriously tried to improve the article after I was forced to stop editing. I also compiled excerpts from sources and nobody every used them. See Talk:Sathya_Sai_Baba/sources.

To summarize, the reason why I was topic banned for the set of Sathya Sai Baba related article were.

1. perceived inappropriate linking in the article Robert Priddy. The dispute was about linking to one of the home pages of the subject.

2. alleged conflict of interest. I personally think that there was never a conflict of interest in the strict sense of the word, but I admit that I was, as a critical former member of the movement, emotionally involved. This has waned in the course of years. The fraction of my edits related to Sathya Sai Baba has become much smaller as my edit history shows.

3. very frequent use of the conflict resolution procedures without coming any closer to agreements.

The arbcom considered my edits to the article Sathya Sai Baba as responsible. The arbcom did not scrutinize my edits at Sathya Sai Baba movement, because, as stated, the article was never controversial.

The article Sathya Sai Baba movement suffers from neglect. Look for example, at the following sentence without good reputable source that was inserted there on 11 May 2011] and remains there until now.

"When he died at the age of 84, it was revealed that he meant 96 lunar years, in keeping with the Hindu calendar."

The article Sathya Sai Baba will always remain problematic due to the lack of reputable sources for a good biography. This lack of reputable sources is explicitly described in reputable sources e.g. by anthropologist Lawrence Babb.

List of all diffs to talk page of Sathya Sai Baba, maximum one year back from 17 Aug.2012

• 17 Aug. 2012
• 17 Aug. 2012
• 17 Aug. 2012
• 8 Oct. 2011
• 6 Oct. 2011
• 25 Sep. 2011
• 25 Sep. 2011
• 25 Sep. 2011
• 24 Sep. 2011
• 24 Sep. 2011
• 21 Sep 2011
• 21 Sep. 2011
• 21 Sep. 2011
• 20 Sep. 2011
• 29 Aug. 2011
• 28 Aug. 2011
• 28 Aug. 2011

List of all diffs to talk page of Sathya Sai Baba movement, maximum one year back from 17 Aug.2012

• 28 May 2012

List of books or article copies that I have on the shelf and intend to use as sources. See here for a discussion of some of these sources Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_arbitration/Sathya_Sai_Baba_2

• Babb, Lawrence A. "Sathya Sai Baba's Saintly Play", in Hawley, John Stratton, ed. Saints and Virtues Berkeley: University of California Press, 1987.
• Babb, Lawrence, A., Redemptive Encounters, (University of California Press, 1986)
• Bowen, David The Sathya Sai Baba Community in Bradford: Its origins and development, religious beliefs and practices. Leeds: University Press. (1• Kent, Alexandra Divinity and Diversity: a Hindu revitalization movement in Malaysia, Copenhagen Nias Press, first published in 2005, ISBN 87-91114-40-3
• Kent, Alexandra Divinity and Diversity: a Hindu revitalization movement in Malaysia, Copenhagen Nias Press, first published in 2005, ISBN 87-91114-40-3
• Knott, Kim Dr. South Asian Religions in Britain in the Handbook of Living Religions edited by John R. Hinnels (1997), second edition, ISBN 0-14-051480-5
• Kelly, John D. Dr. Bhakti and Postcolonial Politics: Hindu Missions to Fiji in Nation and Migration in The Politics of Space in the South Asian Diaspora
• Poggendorf-Kakar, Katharina German language Der Gottmensch aus Puttaparthi. Eine Analyse der Sathya-Sai-Baba-Bewegung und ihrer westlichen Anhänger. de:Verlag Dr. Kovac, Hamburg 1999. ISBN 3-8300-0060-X

Thanks for your time. Andries (talk) 14:44, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

• I have advised Andries to reformat and reposition the request. I will give a response when that has been done. SilkTork 15:24, 20 August 2012 (UTC)