Misplaced Pages

From earlier:

1. I have the impression that Zmmz and Mani believe that Frye's ideas are TRUE, and that this article is therefore the right place to argue for their truth

   This is the worst thing Zora said about you recently. It is saying you might have an opinion (which everyone has) and misguidedly be deciding to voice it in the article (which is a mistake people often make). It does not appear to have been intended to provoke you, and it was both preceded and followed by talk about the article or article policy. Maybe even that entire comment was misguided, but while I and certainly disagree with several points in it, and while it could have been said a lot more tactfully, it doesn't seem to have had any malicious intent.

2. and you try to soften the image of Arabs, in an encyclopedia of all places ... No, you can`t erase the ethnicity of Rumi, so we can just call him a “Muslim”.

   These sound like personal accusations to me, or at least an indication of lack of good faith in Zora, which would be hypocritical considering you said it mere sentences after telling Zora to assume good faith.

3. And, no, you can`t inject your opinion into an article

   Yes, that is what WP:NPOV is all about. –T_if_eg_{o07:26, 4 April 2006 (UTC)}

That was not an accusation against user Zora, after erasing the section, she wrote in the edit box, Removing anti-Arab ranting and irrelevant section on Tehran architecture. The similar argument was used when she tried to erase the ethnicity of Rumi. These are not good reasons to edit in an encyclopedia. The last comments by me were made in general terms. In the future though, the best way to do this is on talk pages, the discussion page is not the place for this lengthy, personal inquiry. OK? No problem though, good effort. Take-care Zmmz 07:59, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

OK. I wasn't sure whose talk page to move it to. And btw that edit comment you mentioned would be a perfectly valid reason to remove something if it were true, and surely she believed what she said in her own edit comment. –T_if_eg_{o08:03, 4 April 2006 (UTC)}

This particular article is about Dr. Richard Nelson Frye who specializes in Persian culture and history, so any comments by him, or his views are counted as his work, and it does not matter if any user, including myself, agree with his views or not, what matters is, they are his work and passion. It relates to the article well. And, I`m not sure if you are new here, but Wiki is really at its core, an encyclopedia, so we really can`t erase factual, relevant stuff, even if we feel offended by it.Zmmz 08:08, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Again, let me remind you that a good deal of the stuff she was erasing was written by Dr. Kaveh Farrokh without reference to that fact, and that it was highly opinionated. And please try not to say things like that which are considered patronizing. Imagine if I said it to you. "I'm not sure if you are new here Zmmz, but Wiki is really, at its core, an encyclopedia, so we really can't include opinionated, irrelevant stuff, even if we want to." I can't help but think you are trying to provoke me and prolong this discussion, when you repeatedly refer to general Misplaced Pages principles in situations that do not call for that. I am asking that you please stop doing that, specifically. –T_if_eg_{o08:21, 4 April 2006 (UTC)}

Well, that was pointless. -- Tifego11:38, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Please assume good faith.Zmmz 21:37, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Right-O. This discussion is over. –T_if_eg_{o21:41, 4 April 2006 (UTC)}

Ibn Khaldun quote (again)

I actually drove to a branch library eighteen miles away to get a copy of the Frye book, The Golden Age of Persia, to check out how he uses the quote.

It opens a chapter on Iranian contributions to Islamic culture. Frye says:

"The remarks of Ibn Khaldun are not in dispute, but the extent of Iranian influences on Islam, the Arabs and the Arabic language needs to be examined and classified." (p. 150)

So, he's not all that interested in the quote. He's interested in specifics.

I don't think that the quote belongs in the article. Zmmz and his cohorts have introduced this quote into a number of WP articles, as part of a campaign to reclassify some luminaries of Islamic culture as Persians. It is not relevant to Frye.

I'm enjoying Frye's book -- I might as well read it now that I have it. He does write well, and he's actually more nuanced in his arguments than some of the editors claiming him as their own. However, he is unrepentantly old-fashioned in his outlook. The book was originally published in 1975. In his foreword to the 1999 reprint, Frye says, "Many publications have appeared since this writing, but none have required a revision of this text, even though several books and articles have clarified details." (p. xiv) That's astounding -- 24 years later and nothing to change? That's a man who's 79 years old and resting on his laurels. Vast upheavals in academia have escaped his notice. Zora 21:34, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Zora, Zmmz and his cohorts have introduced this quote into a number of WP articles, is a statement that is highly inappropriate and not factual as well. One more time I remind you to stay civil and stick to facts please. Rampant accusations without a strong base can be seen as an incivil attempt to intimidate other users There is no Zmmz AND his cohorts, and I did not insert that section into any of the articles containing it, it was already there long before I browesed through the article. The page of the book that refers to the quote was scaned and submitted in the discussion page of Ibn Khaldun article. But, just you acknowledging that the quote was in Dr. Frye`s book, it`s an indication, that it relevant to this article, that`s about Dr. Richard Nelson Frye and his work. Thank youZmmz 21:45, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

What about this quote then, from Yahya bin Adam al-Qurashi:

The Muslims, when they defeated the Persians, left the Sawad (southern Iraq), and those of the Nabat and dihqans who had not fought the Muslims, in the same position (as previously). They imposed the jizya on the heads of the men, surveyed the land in their possession and charged kharaj on it. Any land not possessed by anyone was seized as sawafi (state land). (p. 63)

That's quoted by Frye, so that must be important, yes? And then there's Frye's book on Bukhara -- he starts it off with this quote from Oscar Wilde:

The almond groves of Samarqand,

Bokhara, where red lilies blow.

And Oxus, by whose yellow sand

The grave white-turbaned merchants go.

That's important, right? Oh, there's a quote that starts each chapter! Like this one from Rudaki:

Put your face to the mihrab, what is the gain?

My heart is with Bukhara and the idols of Taraz.

Do we have to give all those quotes too? That's at least nine quotes, from the beginnings of the chapters, and then there are the quotes inside the chapters too, like this one:

The geographer al-Maqdisi, who flourished in the second half of the tenth century, wrote that "they are the best of kings in character, appearance, and respect for science and men of science. . . . Among their usages, they do not require men of learning to fall on the ground before them, and they hold assemblies in the evenings during the month of Ramadan for discussions in the presence of the ruler." (p. 89)

Do you think, Zmmz, that we should include all material quoted by Frye, as demonstrating what he finds important? Combing through all his published works to find all the quotes might take some time, ne? Perhaps it would be better NOT to quote people he quotes, but to just quote Frye, the subject of the article? Zora 00:33, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

You can include any material that is writen by Dr. Frye, as long as it is not frivolous, and it is actually related to his specialty, which is, ancient Persian history. But, you cannot copy and paste every single word from his books into the article. It is clear, from your own comments, not my allegations, that you feel Dr. Frye, is anti-Arab, old-fashioned etc, which is your opinion, and it is fine, but please do not disrupt an article because of it.Zmmz 01:18, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, it's nice to know who's the new boss of Misplaced Pages. Suggest you take it up with Jimbo.

If "any material" is OK, but not ALL material, how exactly do you propose to choose which are the relevant quotes? Zora 02:02, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Removed the paraphrase and Tehran architecture again, revised the appreciation para

The supposed quotes aren't quotes. They don't belong in an encyclopedia. The Tehran architecture can go in the Tehran article, per Zereshk. The quote from Frye re appreciation of Persian culture goes into a new, combined section.

We don't use titles here. All scholars are known by the their last name. I removed all the Dr.s and Professors. Look at other articles on scholars, like the one on Historiography of early Islam. It's customary even in academia to just drop titles and use last names.

The gallery -- are those photos public domain? It's going to go away unless Zereshk managed to get licencing for all those photos. Zora 08:17, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

I dont think you have the authority to delete those images. They can clearly be used under Fairuse tag. Ive already cleared this with admins. (User:wikiacc).--Zereshk 18:33, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Good. I wasn't saying that I would take steps. I'm overextended as it is, and I usually stay away from image problems -- except in the Bollywood articles, where we recently had an anon uploading Photoshopped porn. The gallery is a great addition, as long as it's legit. Zora 18:52, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm. ManiF reverted on sight, saying "Use talk" -- even though I did. Zora 08:27, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

I disagree with you, the quotes from UCLA lecture belong here. --ManiF 08:31, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

THEY AREN'T QUOTES! They are someone's notes on the lecture. If Frye knew that someone was publishing someone else's words under his name, he would be PISSED OFF. Like the Siegenthaler incident. You want to disrespect Frye? If you want to document those opinions as Frye's, you can darn well read some of his books or articles and provide excerpts. Not just cut and paste someone else's notes. Zora 08:40, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Zora, please turn off your caps lock and read WP:Civil, I don't appreciate your aggressive tone. Those are Richard Nelson Frye's quotes from his UCLA lecture, a source has been provided as well. --ManiF 08:43, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

The source is completely anonymous. There is no way to confirm that those are quotes -- moreover, there is reason to suspect that they aren't, since they don't match Frye's prose style at all. Zora 08:59, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Iran heritage organisation is far from "anonymous", I also disagree with you on your other accusations. If source is provided so I am going to remove the tag --Kash 21:26, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't believe that is a reliable source. It started in 2003, it is not mentioned anywhere else on Misplaced Pages, and there are very few links to it elsewhere online. In addition, it is overwhelmingly obvious that most if not all of the "quotes" on the page the article links to are not direct quotes of Frye:

1. That page itself does not call them quotes or say that he said them directly.
2. One of them says "Richard Frye said" inside it. And only that one.
3. Another one says "How is it that data (law) became separated from religion", did Frye say "law" in parentheses during his speech?
4. Another says "1st generation of exile Iranians need to remember their heritage, keep it up". That's not even a sentence, grammatically, and it starts with "1st" instead of "first". It may be a rough paraphrasing of what he said, but those cannot be his exact words during the speech.

The other source (the lecture excerpts) is also not acceptable because it only links to a sound file which is apparently broken/unviewable, and even if it worked, it is not text. If nobody has transcribed and/or published anything about the speech then there is nothing to mention about it on Misplaced Pages. –T_if_eg_{o 22:18, 7 April 2006 (UTC)}

Solution

People,

This edit war isnt going to get anywhere.

My proposal was:

1. that we transfer the Tehran Frye arch quotes to Tehran, so I can beef it up with info about Tehran's architecture.
2. that we keep some select remaining quotes by Frye. We can discuss which ones. Obviously quotes like "1st generation of exile Iranians need to remember their heritage, keep it up" were meant only for his audience at that particular lecture.
3. That we mention that the quotes are attributed to Frye according to the Iran Heritage Foundation.

But since my proposals got no attention, I am taking the liberty of contacting the foundation itself, to inquire about the quotes. Obviously, they were recorded (written) by somebody who works for the foundation.

But still, I urge you to consider my proposals. It really should prove to be a compromise in my view.--Zereshk 23:37, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Well, first we should make sure they're really attributing them as quotes. We wouldn't want to falsify what www.iran-heritage.org said about Frye, either. As far as I can tell, they are only claiming one thing to be a quote: "I always thought of Iran where Iranian speaking people lived". And that quote looks like it has some error in it, like it's missing a word somewhere. The rest of the items listed there seem to be paraphrasing. Keeping select remaining quotes is fine, but keeping select non-quotes isn't.

I'm considering an RfC for this, to get some more opinions on the matter. Maybe that would make a consensus more likely. –Tifego _{00:28, 8 April 2006 (UTC)}

(To clarify, Zereshk, I believe your proposed compromise is well-intentioned, but compromises that compromise the accuracy of Misplaced Pages are unacceptable, and the people on at least one side of the debate feel that is what this compromise would do.) –Tifego _{02:17, 8 April 2006 (UTC)}

Yes, open an Rfc please, so some editors who obsessively try to erase any sections and/or statements that they feel is “anti-Arab”, that Dr. Frye is an old-fashioned, 78 year old man who is, out of touch, in favour of macho Persians, and “rests on his laurels ” etc., can explain what justification they may have for objecting to this article. Before, anyone attempts to do that however, they must first seek a third opinion, and then mediation. Zmmz 00:51, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't think that's true. I opened an RfC, in any case, since we seem to agree it would help. –Tifego _{01:17, 8 April 2006 (UTC)}

By the way, don't say such insulting things (such as "obsessively try to erase") about Zora. It's not nice. –Tifego _{02:12, 8 April 2006 (UTC)}

I see, but it is not a matter of opinion, and not an insult, more like an observation, taken from that user`s own statements. Also, the procedure in Wiki is, one must first seek a third opinion, and then mediation, so your efforts may not get much appropriate attention. And, please provide a link, so others here can participate in the Rfc, if it was opened at all. Zmmz 01:33, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

"Third opinion" is only for when there are two people involved, and I believe there are more than two. Requests for mediation is for slightly more serious conflicts, and we already tried resolving it through discussion. The RfC happens here on this talk page, whenever somebody feels like participating, but here's a link if you really want one: Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Society and law. It's just a request for some people to look at it if they want to help out. –Tifego _{01:49, 8 April 2006 (UTC)}

That is not a third opinion means. Secondly, setting up a Mediation Cabal is the second step.Zmmz 01:54, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

I think you're a little confused. Third opinion says "This page is meant only for disagreements involving precisely two people". And Mediation Cabal is not part of the Negotiation "track", which unless I'm mistaken is somewhat less drastic than mediation. Honestly I think mediation might be required, but I'll see if anything comes of this first. –Tifego _{02:03, 8 April 2006 (UTC)}

I don`t think you know precisely which direction to turn, but that`s fine.Zmmz 02:09, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Forgive me, but couldn't we just move these quotations to Wikiquote? I know it seems like a cheap solution, but there are a lot of quotes listed here - many of them doing little but to reinforce the same point, and the move would put a permanent end to this edit war (at least in this Wiki). Black-Velvet 11:23, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Three Deep Breaths. Frye is not so much anti-Arab as he is respectful of Iran and it's traditions. This is not about black and white. It is many shades of grey. No one has the right or grounds to say 'I am always right'. Several of the Fry quotes could indeed be taken out of context (the Sistani quote & the religious war quote in particular) but the rest of them express Frye's point of view - right, wrong, or otherwise. Are we to debate the veracity of every quote attributed by a supporter? Should any 'Union' published quotes of Abraham Lincoln be rejected unless we bring him back from the dead to assert he really said it? Are we to question every quote by anyone which is disagreeable? If someone quotes Hitler as saying "I don't like Jews." are we to censor that or argue about whether those were his *precise* words on the grounds it is anti-Semetic? Of course not - that's how this individual thought. Expunging from WP any statement which does not agree with your poliotical view *because it does not agree* or whith which you find cavilling reasons for exclusion is both un-academic and unethical. On the Other Hand including quotes 'out of context' to push a political view or aggrandize something you idolize/admire is also a Bad Thing. My solution would be - define the quotes as 'attributed to' rather than swearing they are verbatim quotes. And take out those which are prone to misinterpretation as they are out of context. To give a flavour of Frye's pro-Iranian views and provide some understanding of what these views are seems quite appropriate to providing understanding of Frye as a scholar. Ask yourself 'why am I using this quote' if part of the answer is 'Frye agrees with my opinion on Iran' - Don't Use It. Bridesmill 16:51, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

I would have no objection if the people who are so enamored of these supposed "quotes" replaced them with quotes saying the same thing that can be reliably sourced to material that Frye has written. I have a strong objection to putting words in Frye's mouth if they aren't his words. How can I compromise on including material of doubtful authenticity? Zora 19:28, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

How much authenticity do you want? Personally cannot attest that Frye said these things, but they are a. wholly in character and b. nobody is arguing that he said anything other than these things. Your comment - 'no compromise on bogus quotes' sounds more political than academic. As I said; the tone & context needs to be editted, but why deny Frye's beliefs? Bridesmill 19:46, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Because it is not proven that Frye holds "exactly" the beliefs set forth in the supposed quotes. Furthermore, he's not as inarticulate as whoever wrote those quotes. He has a lovely prose style. I don't believe that he would deliver a major speech without writing it out first, and he would not write something like that. Those are someone's lecture notes, and it would be irresponsible to publish them as quotes. If someone wants to read Frye's works and pull out matching material that's fine. If no one can find anything in his published material that matches the lecture notes, then that's fairly good evidence that the notes don't do him justice.

If we were dealing with a journalist writing for an established newspaper, like the NY Times, then we could have some trust that the journalist wasn't making things up ... not total trust, alas (Jayson Blair was the name, yes?), but a lot of trust. Anonymous writing on a web site has no credibility to lose. Nor a track record to inspire confidence. Zora 02:25, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Listen to the lecture linked to in the article and you will see that none of those bullet points are made by Frye. He does not mention Sistani nor does he mention Arabs. He is talking about the Iranian Diaspora and he says that Iranians should encourage their children, particularly daughters, not to marry outside their own ethnic background to preserve their heritage. The Iranian Heritage website is either talking of a different lecture or it is simply wrong. And are we supposed to believe that an academic would say something as garbled as "The Hakhamanesh brought universal and secular law not related of the locals"? Is anyone seriously suggesting these are his words?--210.211.233.121 12:45, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

It seems that nobody is actually trying to argue that Frye stated these things verbatim - therefore, there should be no problem in changing 'Quotes' to 'During this lecture, Frye said that.....' then it becomes obvious that we are paraphrasing. I also argue that whatever specifically Frye said about either religious wars or Sistani, this listing as stated allows it to be very much taken out of context - therefore either put in verbatim what he said, or delete those lines. Agree w/ IP that the Hakhamanesh reference makes no sense - again, either find out specifically what was said in a mutually understandable fashion - or delete that bullet. I only had a chance so far to listen to the first few secs of the audio - and it is even there fairly obvious that the audio is but an excerpt - not the whole talk; nonetheless he does seem to be going into the concept of need for learning how to be a minority. But there again, this can so be taken out of context. I am assuming Frye has a similar take on this concept to Rajaee, who speaks at length about Ismaili mastering of this skill - if that is so, again this needs to be carefully worded or precisely cited. I am starting to agree w/ Zora that this piece is a serious disaster, and

• a. needs reworking immediately as I outline above, followed by some indepth cleanup or
• b. delete this portion until cleanly rewritten.

I am not on any anti-arab or anti-iranian tangent here - just that from an academic perspective what is written now is at best partly unclean and at worst academically dishonest and potentially inflammatory. Bridesmill 18:33, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

I got Frye's email address from Harvard and sent him an email inviting him to come here and check the accuracy of his article OR to send a secretary, research assistant, or grad student who can speak for him. Dunno if that will have any result but it does, that should be authoritative. Since he's not a politician and has nothing to hide, I don't expect any serious problems with vanity editing or censorship. Zora 20:25, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Zora, good idea. The audio is obviuiously an excerpt, in it he makes one statement which is very well paraphrased by "Iranians need to learn how to survive as minorities overseas and how to protect their identity. " I've made a small tweak to separate the fact from the unconfirmed. If you read the Hakhamanesh piece, it is possible to see where it comes from & has some validity - if you can read through the grammar (try translating it 2 or three times). Hopefully we can pause & await Prof Frye's personal comment now. Bridesmill 01:40, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Update on the email

Professor Frye responded quite politely to my email:

I am on my way to Beijing, but when I return in four weeks I will attend to the article on me in the encyclopedia.

So we have to wait a bit, but he's going to take a look at it. He's going to be appalled if he looks at the talk page as well as the article ... but, we've got to be honest. No archiving it all away, yes? My remarks criticizing him and all :/ Zora 18:30, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Given his credentials, and the nature of academia, I'm sure he's heard worse ;-) Bridesmill 00:27, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Me, I personally think we could use quotes straight out of his books (which are often much more insightful) instead of debating the veracity of the Iran Heritage website ones.

I would feel ashamed if he actually did stop by here on this talk page seeing all these petty discussions that we have. The man is no doubt the godfather to "Iranian studies" in American academic institutes. I wish Zora hadnt emailed him. Now I feel like we have become his (Frye's) "asbāb e zahmat" if he did show up.--Zereshk 22:50, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

? In a way, yes, but that's somewhat 20/20 hindsight as nobody (incl. yourself on 27 Mar) thought of that solution. I don't think that these discussions are all that petty - the way I read the quotes as given I have to scratch my head a bit too - and we could do just as poor a job taking quotes from his book out of context. Bridesmill 23:05, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

On April 9, I said, "If someone wants to read Frye's works and pull out matching material that's fine." But no one listened. Zora 02:55, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

"Matching" meaning what? The quotes I would bring are very different, but interesting nevertheless. At least IMO.--Zereshk 15:27, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Zereshk, if you want to do that, and we could drop the supposed lecture quotes, so that things are tidied up before he gets here, that would be nice. Do you think you could get the other anti-Zora editors to go along with that? I would hope that all he has to do is correct the bibliography. Actually, I would suppose that his latest book would have an up-to-date biblio, so it would just involve copying it. It would be cool if he got here and just said, "Good job."

You have that book, "Greater Iran", which is an autobiography, I understand. That actually might be the best source of quotes. I've just ordered it (splurging, considering my financial situation) but it won't get here for a week or so. What we would want, I think, is perhaps his views on the Revolution, quotes re appreciation of Persian history and high culture, a quote on Arab-Persian relations to replace the one from Ibn Khaldun, reflections on his career, thoughts on Iranians in diaspora, yes? We want the quotes to reflect him, not just the intersection of the sets "what Frye believes" and "what Zora believes" or "what Zereshk believes". I'm afraid that the sets "Frye intersection Zora" and "Frey intersection Zereshk" might be completely disjunct! Zora 04:42, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Eminence

Can we please leave him as either a well-known, prominent, or eminent scholar? Ask anyone to list the top ten & Frye's name will come up - to say he is just 'a scholar' is not very accurate - there are people on this page who are scholars. And whether you like or dislike what he says, you have to admit that he is one of the most notable & respected in his field - QED 'eminent'.Bridesmill 12:54, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Indeed. Ustad Frye's biography is quite outstanding. No wonder Henry Kissinger appointed him to invite Iranian intellectuals to Harvard. He is "the founder of Iranian studies at American academic institutions", the editor of "The Cambridge History of Iran", and it was he, not Yar-shater, who was first appointed to chair the Kevorkian Center for Iranian studies at Columbia University. He declined. Then they put the also eminent Yar-Shater as his replacement.--Zereshk 15:29, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't know of him very well, I just know words like eminent shouldn't really be put in the introduction, I will put well-known however.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 23:45, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Well in order to start an article on Misplaced Pages the subject has to be notable already. The phrase "well-known" seems a little subjective to me. I don't really see a need for it. Aucaman 02:12, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

When it comes to Iranian studies, there are only a handful of seriously respected scholars - Frye is one of them. I personally don't like a lot of what he says and believe a lot to have been superceded by events, but what is wrong with 'eminent' (check the definition - it's not really special or subjective) or if we must 'well-known' (although I think he is more eminent than well-known - well known implies name recognition. Eminence implies respect in the field. Not putting the adjective is like the Einstein article saying he was a physicist; period, full stop.Bridesmill 02:47, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Actually eminence basically means more respected than everyone else, and I think that is a bit difficult to determine especially in a filed like this.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 03:02, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Actually, the word in question in eminent - not eminence. Eminent = standing out so as to be readily perceived or noted. And eminence means prominent or holding superior station - quite different form 'more respected than everyone else'. Also curious why this should be such an issue, and why you think such status would be so difficult to determine 'in a field like this'. Bridesmill 03:47, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Actually I am talking about eminent, here is what dictionary. come says for its primary definition.-

em·i·nent Audio pronunciation of "eminent" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (m-nnt)

adj.

1. Towering or standing out above others; prominent: an eminent peak.

Here is the link- . "Well known" is more matter of fact and objective why don't we stick with that.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 04:32, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

From your own link: Outstanding, as in character or performance; distinguished: an eminent historian. --ManiF 00:24, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

That would be the secondary definition, why don't we change it to "widely respected" or "distinguished" or both?- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 00:27, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Depends on which dictionary - I'm a Webster guy & thus agree with Mani - on the other hand, I like Moshe's compromise - it doesn't put much of a value judgement on him but acknowledges he is a force to be reckoned with in the field. Hopefully we can live with this ;-) ? Bridesmill 00:34, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for catching typo

Mani, thanks for catching the typo in my copyedit. D'oh! Zora 01:47, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

zora, aucaman, mooshe

Don't you have better things to do than wasting your time following zereshk around everywhere he goes and vandalising his edits. It seems you have vandalised alot of articles related to iran, it also seems that you are jews. Why all the hate towards iranians? What did we ever do to you except saving your lifes a couple of times. Darkred 03:52, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Can we please leave it at distinguished? Semantically it makes sense, arguments by Moshe are good; it needs to be NPOV - I've looked at Moshes contribs & what you are saying does not appear to be true in his cae - I have not looked at the others (I came from RfC) Curiously, only Moshe appears to be jewish - is that a problem?Bridesmill 05:43, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Problem? I was curious about why they hate iranians if they are jewish, thinking about persian-jewish relations in history. No personal attack intended. Darkred 05:51, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

What does my ethnicity matter? I find this rather irritating that someone would even bring it up.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 05:53, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

What does your ethnicity matter? Like i said above i was curious about why you hate iranians thinking about the persian-jewish relations in history. Or you mean you would hate iranians even if you were of another ethnicity? Darkred 06:15, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

What if you like some Iranians and don't like some others? Suppose you like Jamshid (musician) but think Shahrokh (musician) just doesn't measure up? Suppose you like Hafiz but are rather bored by Firdausi? Suppose you like your friend Monir but not all of her relatives? Does that mean that you're anti-Iranian, or just human? Darkred, do you like all the Iranians you know? Zora 06:39, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

So you mean you only hate the iranians that edit in wikipedia, well thats a relief. lol :) --Darkred 06:49, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Suppose you like some of the Iranians who edit on WP and don't get along with others? (No can name names, that would be incivil.) Zora 07:14, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

All right guys I don't think this is accomplishing much.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 07:36, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Probably not. Sigh. I was trying to break through the sweeping generalizations, but it may be utopian to think that I could. Should we have just reported incivility and anti-Semitism to an admin? Zora 08:02, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

No I don't think it is really necessary. I think the guy was just trying to get under our skin. If he does it again it might be warranted, but for now I think we should just leave it be.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 08:19, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

For the record, Moshe has indeed followed me, SC, and ManiF to this page, after we confronted him on the Persian Jews page. Why else would you get involved here if you dont even know the names of any living Iranologist comparable to Frye? Let alone making judgements on how good Frye is or isnt. Moshe followed me to Sex in Iran and reverted my edits, even though he knew absolutely nada about Sex in Iran. An obvious sign of intention, if you ask me.--Zereshk 23:37, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Please assume good faith Zereshk, I was asked to look at the Sex in Iran article. Seeing as how the only edits I made on that article consisted of grammitical and wording changes not reversions so I have trouble understanding your reaction, furthermore I only came across this article and changed one word, and eventually came to a consensus about the replacement of the word.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 00:38, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

User zora, i hardly ever read accusations and profanities made by users, but in this case i see that you have accused me of anti-semitism and threatened to report me. I have already explained why i asked that question. However it was not appropriate of me, and i apologise for any misunderstanding. I am new to editing in Misplaced Pages, but it seems clear that there is no place in Misplaced Pages for such things as profanities and accusations. Dear zora, in your own words, please try to be civil, there are rules and regulations in Misplaced Pages. I am not here to wage war against anyone, but i am here to stay. Thank you for your understanding. --Darkred 19:41, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

User moshe, it is clear that in spite of several sources, you are repeatedly rejecting them and keep vandalizing the article about the iran-iraq war. Furthermore you have reported to an administrator that i have violated the 3RR and got me blocked for reverting your vandalism four times. Being new to wikipedia i did not know about the rule. However i have now observed the Misplaced Pages rules and see that the 3RR does not apply when reverting vandalism. Please stop vandalizing the iran-iraq article and other articles, or you will be reported for vandalism. Thank you for your cooperation. --Darkred 19:46, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Darkred, generally we are not supposed refer to other articles on these talk pages, but since we are already talking about it, the passages I had removed were clearly not vandalism as it is described by wikipedia, as I had provided ample reasons for my edits. Without a proper source we are not allowed to add stuff, and the dubya report and the other source did not qualify as reputable, Zereshk eventually replaced the sources with better ones so for now I am ceasing my involvent in that particular dispute.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk-TINC 04:09, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

moshe, i am sorry, but you still have vandalized that page even after zereshk's new sources. For now i will have to think about whether or not report you for vandalism. However from now i will answer any question you might have, in the iran-iraq war talk page. Please do so aswell. --Darkred 04:41, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Then please, report me for vandalism, I mean it. Go here and report exactly what I did- http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents .- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 04:50, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Please discuss the matter at the agreed location: iran-iraq war --Darkred 05:05, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

Accusations of vandalism

Everyday for almost a week Darkred has reverted a previous edit that was agreed on with consensus, his edit summary always consists of a fallacious accusation of vandalism and is usually marked as minor. This is becoming increasingly irritating. I do not understand his motivation for doing this since it was not just me that agreed upon the wording.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 21:49, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Dr Frye impresses me very much & I have a lot of respect for what he has done & said & how intelligent he is. That being said, as discussed at length above, he is NOT well-known outside of a small circle (Iranians & Iranologists). The eminent/distinguished bit I can sort of live with; although collectively it had been decided that distinguished was a better choice of words as the connotation in American english is different from that in other dialects, leaving many readers with a very biased impression. If you look at myriad other articles, honorific type adjectives are just not/not used on WP - Einstein for example states 'widely regarded as' rather than actually asserting that he was. Check out as well any selection of scientists from say, the list of Jewish scientists - you will quickly see that the desire to avoid these adjectives is not an effort at anti-Iranian racism - it is simply trying to keep this article inline objectively with the rest of WP.Bridesmill 19:35, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Regardless of what sources you have cited not calling him eminent, i really don't see the need to do so. What is wrong with calling him eminent? However you have a point if you want to take out well-known. He is mostly well-known to Iranians and Iranologists perhaps.

However moshe here have constantly lied that you came to an agreement calling him distinguished instead, his intentions are a total mystery to me. I have reported him for vandalism. --Darkred 20:12, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

How did I lie about reaching consensus? If you scroll up you can see the discussion on the matter.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 20:16, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, not sure how Moshe represented it, but when he & I had the discussion I was originally in the eminent side - I ended up agreeing that it should be 'Distinguished' based on perception by american readers of english that eminent means 'the best there is' (in other words a synonym for pre-eminent) (originally my perception was that distinguished was a bit POV - all of which underscores how poorly all of us who speak the same language understand each other) I cannot comment on Moshe's behavior on other pages because I haven't looked, but his actions here do not strike me as vandalistic. Bridesmill 20:23, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

An agreement would be only if the original editor which was Zereshk would agree someone to change his edits, which he never did, thus it never were any agreement, and his clmains were pure lies, and therefore his constant reverting is vandalism, but i am not here to decide that, the administrator which takes care of the reports does. PS as hardly read the profanities of vandalizers, this time is no different, all i had to do is see moshes name under the comment to look away. Moshe again please try to be civil and cooperative, we mean you no harm, and certainly do not hate you :). --Darkred 20:39, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

After Zereshk's remarks to my comment, no disagreements/comments where made by him which indicated displeasure over the way things where going - that's since 20 April. I assumed that since the change made sence from a semantic/linguistic POV & was not substantive, silence implied consent or at worst a neutral opinion. I know we have strong feelings running around here - but let's use WP to try & work for a better tomorrow? I'm hoping Darkred you too will try to be civil & all that, at least on this page? Doing otherwise (on anyones part) would be very much against spirit of what Frye strives for. Bridesmill 22:23, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

You say eminent, I say distinguished

I think two adjectives is too much. It smacks of fawning. So it's either one or the other. I prefer distinguished to eminent, because eminent is Einstein or Chomsky -- someone who revolutionizes an entire field -- rather than someone who is just ... distinguished. Frye has common-sense, a vast and amazing command of languages, and a wonderful prose style -- but he hasn't revolutionized history. He isn't a theoretician.

However -- we could split the difference by switching from eminent to distinguished and back, once a week. Or would a thesaurus help? An entirely new adjective?

Hmmm, let's contrast the Roget's Thesaurus lists for eminent and distinguished:

Widely known and esteemed: celebrated, distinguished, famed, famous, great, illustrious, notable, noted, preeminent, prestigious, prominent, redoubtable, renowned

Widely known and esteemed: celebrated, eminent, famed, famous, great, illustrious, notable, noted, preeminent, prestigious, prominent, redoubtable, renowned

Wow, they have exactly the SAME lists. Is there any word in this list that both of you could agree on? I like "prominent", myself. Zora 07:26, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

You say distinguished i say well-known eminent

Like i said above it seems fair to remove well-known, because perhaps he is mostly well-known to iranians and Iranologists. But if you still insist that he is not emiment either, and it seems that you have prepared a list of words to choose, i really don't see any reason for changing eminent, because he is in fact an eminent iranologist. However if you still insist then you might as well for example call pakistan's president not known at all or englands queen an old woman. Now you do understand what i am saying, right zora? --Darkred 07:46, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

English words can mean approximately the same thing -- as clearly, eminent and distinguished do. They may, however, have slightly different connotations. Which is better? Eminent or distinguished? Moshe and I like distinguished; you like eminent. Picking one or the other should be a minor matter. However, using "distinguished" rather than "eminent" is not at all the same thing as calling Musharraf an "unknown" or calling Queen Elizabeth an "old woman" -- though she is. You are blowing a slight difference out of all proportion. You know, we really could switch back and forth each week. Or choose another word. Or have someone write a program that displays whichever word the reader prefers :) Zora 08:02, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

First of all eminent and distinguished are not the same words, even though they may have similar meanings. Second it's not about the word itself, it's about the need you have to change that word. If eminent and distinguished have the same meaning as you say, then why in earth would you like o change them! :) --Darkred 08:15, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Words have denotation and connotation. Logicians worry about denotation, poets worry about connotation. I imagine that Persian, like English, has many words for hair (hair, whiskers, tresses, locks, curls, etc). If you were writing a poem, which would you use? If you were writing about barber shops, which would you use? Picking an adjective for a scholar is more like writing a poem. As you know, people differ strongly about poetry.

You may have noticed that I removed the "well-known" and left "eminent" there. I don't care all that much about the difference. I have a slight preference, but don't care to fight about it. I've suggested some alternatives, now you and Moshe work it out. Zora 08:33, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

I don't really understand what problem darkred has with the word "distinguished". "Eminent" carries a connotation that implies the person "towers above all others in the field" the problem with this is that in a field like Frye's there are not very many objective conditions that can be used to "rank" the scholars position. Now as I have stated above, I am not opposed to using a different word than "distinguished", maybe something along the lines of "Widely respected". If you look at the original exchange above however you will see that Me, Bridesmill, and ManiF eventually agreed upon "distinguished". I will admit that I was never that interested in the subject of this article, I only happened upon this article and decided to make a small adjustment. The reason that I have continued to edit it for so long is probably a combination of stubborness and indignancy stemming from the unsatisfactory reasons of the reversions as well as the insults I have been subject to for no apparent reasons.- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg | Talk 08:53, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

I can live with esteemed - I like Zora's proposed way out of this. But just to put this into perspective: Noam Chomsky - no adjectives; Albert Einstein - widely regarded as the most important; Voltaire - no adjective. etc etc. (basically, find a bona-fide really famous person, & you won't find an unqualified adjective). So while we argue about which adjective(s), the real argument perhaps is should there even be any? Or if so should they be 'qualified' as in Einstein's? Or do we just want to leave it with this latest iteration? Bridesmill 14:02, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

I am sorry i am not going to discuss this any further, as it seesm you don't want to give up until you erased eminent. I said before that you can take out well-known because he is not well-known and later me and zora agreed to that, she herself changed it, now your telling me again that's not good enough! lol. The word eminent stays as agreed. PS moshe i still don't read your profanities on my talk page here or in history edits. --Darkred 18:21, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Eminent was never agreed to - Zora suggested a neutral compromise. My point was that any adjective is already going a heck of a lot further than any other person here on WP. But we are willing to call him 'distinguished' or 'esteemed' or 'respected' or some such, even though that is more thna WP normally allows. Eminent won't work because a lot of people understand that as 'the best in their field' - That is debatable for Frye - I'm sure he himself doesn't presume to be 'the best in the field' - He's one of the better ones, yes, but to imply best in the field is so POV it is ridiculous - and not done anywhere else on WP. What makes you so insistent on using a word that WP does not come close to for Voltaire, Einstein, Lincoln, or the Prophets? Bridesmill 18:57, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Darkred, Moshe went along with my suggestions to the extent of picking another adjective entirely. Which you immediately reverted to your adjective of choice. I'm starting to get the feeling that it's not the adjective that's so important to you, it's the sense that you've "won" and Moshe has "lost". I could be wrong ... I hope I am. Because we're supposed to be collaborating here, on a real-life project. The project takes precedence over our tiny squabbles. Get along with everyone else on this small matter and you build up good-will which can be, um, cashed-in, to your great advantage, in another dispute. How about the new adjective? How about dropping all adjectives? Zora 19:05, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

user zora, i have no interest in hearing what user moshe has to say, the best way to deal with people like her is to ignore them. Now once again you have reverted eminent to distinguished even after agreement. Because of this, like i said before there is no more discussion here, we already came to an agreement, and the word eminent stays, if bridesmill and moshe don't like that that's their problem.

Furthermore moshe i have repeatedly asked you to cooperate, again i have no hate for you and do not want to engage in a war here, but i will not let you vandalize it either. like we talk about it before why can't you just be like the russian-jewish sweet girl i had? lol:), same goes for bridesmill :). --Darkred 20:08, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

I came across this article on a tangent, but the "eminent/distinguished" debate does seem to be a bit excessive for a choice of synonyms. I will say that "eminent" shouldn't be thought of as necessarily the "single" best in the field - "an eminent this or that" is common usage and even "the eminent whatever" does not indicate priority over all others - "the" is attached to "whatever". I believe the word "preeminent" may be what some are thinking of and confusing here. Personally, I would likely choose "eminent' if I wanted to indicate the subject belonged to a somewhat smaller and more select group than "distinguished", but it is difficult from this article to see if that is the case or intention here. David Oberst 19:38, 5 May 2006 (UTC)