Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Giano (talk | contribs) at 21:38, 25 October 2012 (→Category:Wikipedians who are not a Wikipedian: However, I shall not be joining because I am a Wikipedian and no incompetent, self righteous, small minded Arb will ever be permitted to tae that away from me.). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

24 October 2012

Category:Wikipedians who are not a Wikipedian

Category:Wikipedians who are not a Wikipedian (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

The discussion was overwhelmingly tending to keep -- and in jumps an admin who thinks his views count for more than those of the rest of the community. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 09:41, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

I corrected his error. He probably didn't look at the page history, and didn't know that it was the topic of a community discussion. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 09:46, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

You didn't quite - it needs an admin to extract and restore the category description. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 09:50, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

For ease, here was my deletion rationale:

speedily deleted under WP:CSD G10 "attack/disparage" (with a bit of WP:NOTBATTLEGROUND thrown in) I've no involvement in the current Malleus Fatuorum/Arbcom dispute. I can see many good people were outraged by stupid JClemens "not a Wikipedian" remark. But creating categories to attack an editor for a remark he made isn't how we do things. We AREWikipedians that means we discuss things together, and we use proper mature methods to do this. We don't tar and feather people (and I think that exactly the reason people rightly objected to JClemens' remark). We don't engage in puerile ] - we don't monumentalise the folly of others. Where would it end? Do we end up with "Category:Wikipedians who are fuckers" in protest at things Malleus has said? Please, step back and cool down everyone. When we have a dispute, and real Wikipedians try to use discussion and dispute resolution methods to, well, like "resolve" the dispute, not stunts and protests to ramp it up. Take this to deletion review if you must, but ask yourself how you are helping Misplaced Pages. Your valid point/protest has now been made."

The tagline to the category at the time of deletion was "In protest, referencing a comment by an ArbCom member"

The "discussion" was simply part of the same battleground, and not based on policy. Anyway, if DRV thinks I've done the wrong thing, then I give up.--Scott Mac 09:47, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

• Overturn. The Speedy Deletion was out-of-process for two reasons:
  1. The category had already been nominated for CSD:G10 and declined by User:LadyofShalott before it was taken to CfD.
  2. Speedy deletion is only for obviously uncontroversial cases, and this is clearly not one of them.

The deleting admin's reasoning was honorable, but his action was technically incorrect. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 09:48, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Do we now do "technically incorrect" > honorable and useful? Anyway, I don't think it was technically incorrect. But if you think undeletion helps here, whatever. --Scott Mac 09:52, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Boing, are you honestly arguing this _isn't_ an attack? Your argument here is about process (something I'm a huge fan of in fact), but not about the meat of the matter. Could you explain the purpose of the category if it's not just an attack page? Hobit (talk) 12:40, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

If I was arguing that it isn't an attack, I would have argued that it isn't an attack - but as I didn't, you should be able to work out for yourself that I'm not. My argument is that this was a "supervote" abuse of admin power against a clear majority of the !votes so far, in the midst of a furore over perceived abuse of power - and that was pretty much guaranteed to cause a shitstorm. The point is that it is not blatantly and uncontroversially an attack and therefore is not subject to CSD:G10, and the community should not have its power to decide for itself taken away. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 13:08, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Again, it singled out one person's (widely disparaged - and rightly retracted) remarks, and served to invite people to participate in memorialising them. If that's not an attack, and attempt to disparage or a battleground tactic, can you explain what purpose it served? I keep pressing this, but get only evasion. I'm not trying to "badger" you, but the answer to this is at the root of it. If there's were a valid policy-based alternative purpose for this being articulated, then speedy deletion would indeed be inappropriate. But is there? What is yours? The reason you gave at the CFD "*Keep. If the definition is good enough for a serving member of ArbCom, then it's fucking good enough for me" seemed to be further disparagement and not at all policy based. --Scott Mac 13:22, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

As I have pointed out several times, whether it is an attack is not the issue here - as it was clearly not uncontroversial, that is something that should be discussed and decided by the community on the CfD page, and by you personally with your speedy deletion. Your continuing to argue your personal opinion about the category is just reinforcing the point that you did not act as a disinterested admin, and I'm sorry that you don't seem to understand the limits of your powers as an admin. If you do not understand that point, I'm sorry, but I'm not going to try to explain it again. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 13:36, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

If you aren't willing to argue it's not an attack, you really shouldn't be using process to try to keep it around seems unwise (changed wording as it was much more confrontational than I'd meant). Much like a BLP violation, purely process-based arguments should be used very carefully with respect to things that are attacks. Thus my endorse. I don't mean to pick on you, I just know you are a really reasonable person so you're the best person to discuss this with IMO... I'll duck out of this discussion at this point and let you have the last word here if you want it. If you'd like to discuss further, feel free to do so on my talk page. Hobit (talk) 13:47, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Hobit, I would be happy to discuss the category in the deletion discussion, but I was denied that opportunity by an incorrect admin action. That action should be reversed, and the discussion that was closed should be allowed to resume - and the consensus should be judged by an admin who is capable of doing so neutrally. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 14:33, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

"Honorable and useful" is not a valid Speedy Deletion reason. Further, your responses indicate you are not acting as a disinterested admin here, and are effectively supervoting. As I said, I believe your actions were honorable, just incorrect, and I really think you should stop badgering now and just leave DRV to do its job. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 09:58, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

• Overturn - per Boing!'s points - Sitush (talk) 09:51, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
• Overturn - per the technically correct points made by Boing! (Also, in comment, I note that the cat was deleted on the grounds that it represented the actions of Wikipedians who are not "real Wikipedians", thus proving the usefulness and validity of the category in the first place.) Keristrasza (talk) 10:02, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
• Ignore all rules, keep it deleted and just stop. Go back to working on the encyclopedia, instead of worrying about this category created so Misplaced Pages has another martyr that divides the community on a hot button issue. What is the point in it being re-created? Potential collaboration of spiteful editors? You also do realize categories still work whether they are blue or red, right? So, instead of being adults and moving past what Jclemens said (despite how wrong you may think it was), we are going to resort to petty name-calling, creating categories for the sole purpose of harping on his comments, have Misplaced Pages disrupted first through categories for deletion, and now deletion review, only to be brought back to CFD later? Just stop, let it die, for the sake of the time users are going to be wasting on this stupidity. Regards, — Moe Epsilon 10:39, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

  Red and blue categories don't work the same - you can't have a category description if the category itself doesn't exist. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 12:07, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

  Because no one knows what this mysterious category is about, right? Regards, — Moe Epsilon 12:29, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

  Why is it that everybody I try to talk to these days seems to argue against what I haven't said? Oh, wait a minute - could it be because my statement was irrefutably correct? -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 12:33, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

  You implied that the category needed a description, which is the only difference between it being red and it being blue. My point is that everyone who has been sent the link to the category and everyone else who added themselves knows precisely what the category is about. Not only that, but the original "description" was that it was created "in protest." Does this need more explaining? Regards, — Moe Epsilon 12:38, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

  Bit of a snarky response there from me - I apologise. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 13:00, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

  The description could have been amended without deletion of the category. The CSD was overkill and an abuse of G10: it isn't as if the subject of the category was/is not being discussed elsewhere. I understand the rationale for using G10 but, well, it was just asking for trouble, wasn't it? Comment at CfD, by all means, but don't be heavy-handed when you are aware that there is a huge furore regarding the underlying issue. - Sitush (talk) 14:23, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

  That's alright, Boing!. Like Sitush is saying, I think, if the description is amended so that it is not an attack on Jclemens on the category page, I have no problem with it personally. However the "in protest" language makes it very much an attack page on him, and it probably should be avoided at all costs, otherwise the precedent could be made to start other categories for whatever one Wikipedian says, which very much should be discouraged. Regards, — Moe Epsilon 00:09, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

• Overturn Close by administrative fiat against overwhelming consensus to keep. Joefromrandb (talk) 10:44, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
• Overturn - per Boing!'s points. Send it back to CfD if then so inclined and let the discussion run to its end. --Beetstra (public) (Dirk Beetstra on public computers) 10:46, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
• Overturn - Mostly per Boing, with a note that the "attack"-iness of the category has been disputed by numerous editors at the CFD. As Boing said, clearly not uncontroversial. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 11:04, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
• Overturn - Per Boing and overwhelming consensus to keep. --Epipelagic (talk) 11:19, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
• Overturn - Incredible assumption of bad faith when ignoring the consensus. No where is Jclemens listed, nor in any way does this category require someone have an opinion of him in order to join, so the deletion rationale is inherently flawed. There is no "attack" in someone feeling disenfranchised even while they continue to participate, and this category doesn't differentiate the reason for the disenfranchisement. Too much assumption. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 12:02, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
  • As a matter of correcting fact, the category description at the time of deletion was "In protest, referencing a comment by an ArbCom member". Assume what you will from that.--Scott Mac 12:14, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
• Endorse It's a clear attack IMO, no if ands or buts. A very justified attack, but Scott is right here. I'm a huge fan of process, but let the ArbCom election be the process to address this, not sniping like this. Please folks, put down the stick. Hobit (talk) 12:36, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
• Endorse. Not often do I find myself in agreement with Scott MacDonald, but Hobit is exactly correct. With all due respect, Dennis Brown's ABF claim has zero basis in reality. As Scott pointed out, the description at the time of the deletion leaves no doubt that the (quite unwise) comment by Jclemens was the focus of this category. T. Canens (talk) 13:26, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
• Comment: What I'm looking at here is the definition of G10 from WP:CSD#G10: "Pages that disparage, threaten, intimidate or harass their subject or some other entity, and serve no other purpose." I don't think this was justified under that criterion. It's the "and serve no other purpose" bit that bothers me: the first thing I thought of was that this category was pro-Malleus, not contra-Jclemens. This does have another purpose: to show solidarity with another editor. I'm not !voting myself, because there's been entirely too much drama over this already; I didn't feel strongly enough about it to put myself in the cat to begin with, and I don't feel strongly enough about it now to vote overturn. But it does appear to me that the G10 is out-of-process (not so important), and given that the discussion was tending towards keep before, the sudden shift in burden of proof from deleters to keepers unfairly changed the dynamic of the discussion (more important). Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 13:39, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
• Endorse After all, a lot of the people calling for an overturn have made it clear that they aren't Wikipedians (you determine if I was being serious or not). Why should their opinion mean anything, especially while they are all acting like children? For those of you who have threatened to leave, do you actually have the guts to follow through and do it or are going to stay here and continue with your battleground-mentality disruptiveness? AutomaticStrikeout 13:41, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
• Overturn Being an admin doesn't gives you the right to do whatever you want. This decision was completely different from the consensus. ♛♚★Vaibhav Jain★♚♛ 13:51, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Yes, it does. Otherwise, how do you explain Floq blocking an arbitrator for a personal opinion or Drmies giving Malleus a barnstar for making personal attacks? AutomaticStrikeout 13:53, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

I deleted this as an attack. I'm not arguing that was a consensus position, however, the "debate" on the CFD did not contain one policy-based reason not to view it as an attack. Typical of it was Boing!'s ""*Keep. If the definition is good enough for a serving member of ArbCom, then it's fucking good enough for me". That's not a valid argument on Misplaced Pages - and we don't count votes as consensus. Anyway, I wasn't summing up consensus on that "debate", I was speedy deleting an attack/disparage, because we always delete attack/disparage items. Had there been a serious, non-battleground, argument for keeping it going on, then I would not have speedy deleted it. Can someone give me a use for this that doesn't relate to attack, disparage or battleground? I've been asking that without reply. Oh, btw, I'd have deleted an anti-Malleus cat just as quickly.--Scott Mac 14:00, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Of course there were policy-based reasons at the CfD when you deleted. Most obviously, this was that contributors self-categorise on numerous bases and thus there is precedent. You should have raised your points at that CfD, not used a hammer in an out-of-process manner, imo. - Sitush (talk) 14:29, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Speedy deleting attack pages is not out of process. The question is, is it an attack or attempt to disparage - or does it serve some other purpose? No one, as yet, has suggested any other purpose.--Scott Mac 14:38, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

By the way, in case anyone hasn't understood why I used the word "fucking" in my comment, it was to ensure that I qualified for the category. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 14:39, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Solidarity and support of an editor, and sympathy for the perceived abuses inflicted on him, perhaps? This ain't a zero-sum game; supporting the one does not mean attacking the other. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 14:42, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Yes, indeed, This was mentioned at CfD prior to the CSD. - Sitush (talk) 14:44, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Yes, except it wasn't Category:Users who want to cuddle Malleus - it was users who want to keep banging on about a remark JClemen's made (and retracted). The rationale, was indeed, quite explicit.--Scott Mac 14:50, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

I for one have never wanted to cuddle Malleus. But I remain disgusted at both the direction that "request for clarification" took, so speedily, AND JClemens obscene remark. Yes it was retracted, partially and grudgingly, and far too late. pablo 14:56, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Scott, I provided policy based rationales for every action. I'm not a member of the category, I haven't gone on strike, I'm not "one of them", I'm just another administrator here who has been trying to bridge the two sides rather than point fingers. You might not agree with my rationale, but they are policy based, that editors are allowed to categorize themselves by religion, political philosophy, etc. My observations are not so easily dismissed. If it was affecting their article contributions (the reason we ARE here) then it would be arguable as a disruptive influence, but short of that, it is a form of censorship. This is a volunteer project, not their day jobs, and the intolerance for free expression by people who deeply care about the project is disturbing. The only disruption that has come out of the category was the deletion discussion and your hasty decision to speedy delete it. Had people left it alone, no drama would have come of it. The core of the current drama is an intolerance of a few in allowing editors to peacefully categorize themselves. I don't have to agree with their philosophy to respect their right to do this. Again, no disruption has come from this except by its detractors. This is no different than a category "People who think Misplaced Pages needs administrative change", except it isn't sugar coated. It also isn't an attack on any individual, no matter how poorly worded the original summary was, and no matter who was the "straw that broke the camel's back". The one comment isn't the only common concern expressed by the members of the cat. This smacks of censorship, and I find that offensive, much more so than a peaceful grouping of individuals that share a common concern over the direction Misplaced Pages is headed. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 14:55, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, I don't think we're on the same planet. Peaceful?? There ought to be calm discussion about MF, and JClemens and arbcom - absolutely. No view gets censored. I don't even know what mine are. But what this was was a battleground tactic from people determined to ramp up the debate and the attendant vitriol, rather than to seek resolution of the disputes. The same was evidenced at the CFD. It may be, with hindsight, I should have ignored it (that's a valid point) but to say I caused drama when people were peacefully over there doing something undramatic and peaceful.....? Hey, ho. Oh, byw, how will restoring it serve to keep the peace either?--Scott Mac 15:05, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Scott Mac, I didn't think a category would solve any dispute--I'm not that dumb (yet). But I certainly didn't seek all this, battleground and vitriol and all. Those who disagree with its very existence can always turne over the leef, and chese another tale. In much the same way that I'll simply disregard your use of the word "puerile". Drmies (talk) 18:58, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Not sure how the "planet" rhetoric is beneficial to the conversation, but the act of creating or joining a category is a peaceful act. Even this discussion has been relatively peaceful, in spite of how disruptive it is. Talking about a problem that many people agree or disagree about isn't "unpeaceful". Insisting that people who agree on an opinion can't identify with each other in a formal way, ie a :cat, isn't peaceful, it is force. Again, I don't belong to the group, but it seems everyone is so blinded by their opinion of Malleus, that they can't see the forest through the trees here. Dennis Brown - 2¢ © Join WER 16:15, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

• Comment Well, congratulations to Rob & Scott - what was a fairly peaceful protest is now a fully-fledged draaahhhhma publicised at even more venues. pablo 13:54, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
• Overturn and relist - I was the admin who initially declined the G10 nomination because I don't believe it is an attack. I think BoingSaidZebedee nailed it on the head that this was closed with an out-of-process supervote. The discussion should be allowed to continue. LadyofShalott 14:06, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
• Overturn and relist SM's out-of-process closure disrupted the community's discussion, which should continue. I created a similar category, for Category:Wikipedians who are a net negative as an influence on Misplaced Pages. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 15:12, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
  • That's useful, mature, conciliatory, and assists in building consensus and defusing heated community debates. Thanks.--Scott Mac 15:27, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
    • Scott, Sarcasm and name-calling don't advance conversations. Why do you keep saying that the JClemens-inspired category (or the new AGK-inspiration) increases heat or is a battlefield tactic? A show of solidarity (which strikes many as humorous) causes no threat to anything. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 15:50, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
      • Another administrator has deleted the page, again speedily, as an "attack page", despite that description being contested here. Again, another administrator out-voting the community, and misusing speedy deletion. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 17:09, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
• Comment. I'm not really concerned whether this category gets deleted, renamed, or not. Would like to point out, however, that this category meets a long-held sentiment of mine, à la Groucho's quip of not wishing to belong to a club that would have him as a member (proof of me having held this sentiment almost 4 years ago). Sure, I added myself to the category out of solidarity with Malleus Fatuorum, but that's not the only reason, and I might have added myself without knowing about the Arb-kerfluffle too. ---Sluzzelin talk 15:53, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
• Overturn and relist Speedy deletions of material up for discussion at XfD is sometimes justified - usually as an instance of IAR. However, as explained above, those are the exception and not the rule. This closure has already produced more heat than light - and therefore shown that IAR was not appropriate here. Since the category was ineligible for speedy deletion apart from IAR, the decision becomes "overturn and relist." --Philosopher  17:14, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
• If there was ever a discussion that reminded me why I'm glad I handed in my bit, this is it. Revolting. Spartaz 17:40, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
• Suggestion: Perhaps instead of a category, a userbox could be used to identify editors who share a specific view about the Misplaced Pages community? I believe whimsically-named userboxes have a long tradition, and that there is generally a relaxed attitude towards their naming. isaacl (talk) 17:52, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
• Wikipedians are encouraged to be bold, but not with their administrative tools. This is why. I know Malleus is making a lot of Wikipedians tired at the moment (and, no doubt, vice versa); I know that boundaries are being tested, and so are the limits of the community's patience. But unilateral administrative actions don't reduce the drama level. Ever. This is a rule, henceforth to be known as Marshall's Law.—S Marshall T/C 18:35, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
• Endorse Its an attack category - being used to continue to bring attention to, and so deride and demean the original commenter to a poorly made and considered my many/almost all to be attacking comment made by a living person and then retracted. IAR is a fine close for such a creation. I support Malleus and his content work here and I have commented negatively about Clemens in regards to his comment but the election is the place to deal with these things - Clemens is finish in authority here and will not stand as he knows he has no support anymore - so forget him - Malleus is under no threat of much at all in the Arbitration motion - creating this cat is too reactive, its basically over already. Youreallycan 18:38, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

Rob - your ill-thought-out deletion rationale and attendant badgering have done more to increase the drama levels here than any other user's action. Pipe down. pablo 21:57, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

No, we won't "forget him", lest the arb who takes his seat act in a similar manner. Joefromrandb (talk) 19:35, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

• Overturn per all above. The revolution MUST be televised!. We are the Loyal opposition. Montanabw 18:42, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
• Overturn. I appreciate the kumbaya implied in Scott Mac's rationale, and I mean that sincerely. But I do not believe this deletion was done properly, for reasons outlined above, by Boing for starters and then by others. I see now that the description I added to the category, at least its phrasing, wasn't very helpful--but that entire Clarification Request wasn't very helpful, unless its purpose was to cause more division. If anything should be speedily dealt with, it's that. But the description can be edited; maybe it is already. Jclemens's comment was an immediate cause, of course, but the more important thing (for me, anyway) is that baiters can easily turn anything done by one editor into an ArbCom matter--and let other things slide. Jclemens wasn't the only one who said some pretty horrible things, and it's the general attitude, where an editor gets singled out and pounced upon, that creates the camps where in the end one camp can claim proper Wikipedianess and deny it to the other camp. And there really weren't camps to begin with. The category name is of course based on that now-retracted claim, so maybe the one shouldn't exist while the other is detracted--one could argue that, in a deletion discussion. (I don't agree, but that's something that someone could argue). This, this discussion and the conflicts that gave rise to it, will continue of course until the underlying matter is dealt with, and I for one still feel uneasy about even showing up here and doing various other household duties. Drmies (talk) 18:43, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
  • Yeah, but if (in reference to Malleus Fatorum's jibe) I created Category:Wikipedians who are fucking cunts and then argued it was really about supporting people who felt demeaned and insulted by vested contributors who (they felt) were allowed to ignore civility with impunity because of their prolific contributions, shouldn't it be speedily deleted as trolling (at least)? Or would that be acceptable? (PS not going to do it, before someone shouts POINT)--Scott Mac 21:02, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

• • Nobody has raised any objection to your starting a category for yourself and for anybody who wants to identify as a fucking cunt, the way that some of us have identified with Malleus as net minuses or not a Wikipedian. The community should tolerate self-identification. Kiefer.Wolfowitz 21:27, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
    • Interesting scenario. I'm not sure which CSD category would be appropriate, but it could well be considered eligible for G3, vandalism. However, should it have been nominated and the speedy deletion declined by an admin, and had it then been taken to CfD and a clear majority in favour of keeping it was developing, then no, it would not be acceptable for another admin to exercise a supervote and speedy delete it regardless. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 21:39, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
      • The fact you think that's a question at all is the problem. I was offering Reductio ad absurdum, and you've failed to notice the absurdity. Had a created such a category it should be killed with a stick, and I should probably be blocked for trolling and disruption. Justifying breaches of a clear Wikipedian civility ethos by extraneous wikilawyring is precisely what Misplaced Pages is not about.--Scott Mac 21:45, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
        • Well, if it was the obvious uncontroversial speedy that you suggest, then it would have been speedy deleted without being declined by an admin, wouldn't it? And it wouldn't have gone to CfD and wouldn't have generated a majority in favour of keeping it, would it? That's why your "fucking cunt" example is not a valid analogy for your own deletion of the "not a Wikipedian" category. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 21:52, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
        • Just an additional point - if what you see as a Reductio ad absurdum is challenged, it's not necessarily because your opponent did not understand the absurdity - it may just be because he thinks the reductio is false. (Honestly not trying to "pull rank" or anything, but I do have an MA in Philosophy) -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 22:00, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
• Having thought about this, and I do understand Scott's reasoning, I am going to go for overturn. I think that the "attack" rationale is wrong. This was always far more a "I am Spartacus!" reaction to Arbcom's direction on this "request for clarification" (and by the way, is any clarification emerging? Didn't see any the last time I looked) than "Arbitrator X is a <insert descriptor of choice; adjectives optional>. pablo 19:48, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
• Overturn to keep- the consensus was clearly that the category should be kept, and that it was not disruptive. This close was just plain wrong. FYI- I have no real involvement in the Malleus situation. Reyk _YO! 21:13, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
• This is what you are supporting as well - divisive and disruptive just the same - Category:Users that support civil discussion and the banning of (add username here) for his/her repeated violations of the Misplaced Pages:Civility policy and for repeated personal attacks on other users in violation of Misplaced Pages:No personal attacks policy - Youreallycan 21:49, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

  Sigh...

  1. You support X
  2. I think X is equivalent to Y
  3. Therefore you support Y

  That's a false syllogism. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 22:11, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

  • Perhaps support was the wrong word - but it is my opinion that by supporting this cat - (created as the user who created it said in solidarity with Malleus - then you allow for the other side - you are encouraging and allowing/accepting the opposite to be created - Youreallycan 22:29, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
    • OK. In fact, I do support the right of people to create user categories expressing solidarity with, say, Jclemens - subject to proper policy-based discussion and not deleted by individual admin supervote. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 22:40, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
      • Solidarity is what it was. If a whole bunch of editors get called "fucking cunts" (or "dishonest twats"), and one of them, disappointed that there's no block on such utterances, wants to create a user category with that term (to get back to your point, Scott), I couldn't care less. Seriously, they have my blessing, and I'll grant them the right to explain on the category page as well. Many user categorizations are POV: "Christian" doesn't mean the same thing for all Christians; "PhD" implies, to some, an educational arrogance; "Wikipedian sexworkers" apparently is a hot-button issue. The BLP argument brought up here by our resident BLP warrior, who has quite a history in divisiveness, does not apply: we're not dealing with living people, we're dealing with "editors"--and on the internet, nobody knows you're a dog anyway. Scott, I don't think you and I ever got into it over something, and I don't intend to change that. I'm sorry if you felt you had to take the course of action that led to all this; if all this blows over, and your deletion is endorsed (it doesn't look like it right now) I'll still buy you a beer. If your deletion gets overturned, well, I'll also still buy you a beer. But it might be a PBR. Drmies (talk) 22:57, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
• Comment I very much respect Scott's effort here in a IAR sort of way, but I think it's also a very incorrect reading of consensus. I'd also mention that many people are upset by the situation; and sometimes these little things can have a cathartic effect in letting people voice their feelings. — ChedZILLA 22:42, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

  I similarly respect Scott's effort - his intentions are undoubtedly entirely honorable. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 22:47, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

  I never doubted that for a second Boing - and I very much agree with everything you've said here. (I was going to mention "super-vote", but saw that you had already done so.) — ChedZILLA 22:54, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

  Sure, I commented more to let Scott know than anything -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 23:05, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

• Endorse per WP:POINT.--Peter cohen (talk) 23:58, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
• Endorse I said it before, and I'll say it again. WP:DWIP--Go Phightins! 23:59, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
• Endorse - WP:POINT. Let's not make attack categories on a level with the inappropriate comments. Reaper Eternal (talk) 00:59, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
• Endorse per WP:POINT. I was going to wait for this to be relisted and then !vote to delete, but that seems like a waste of time. Ryan Vesey 01:06, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

• Relist Per Kiefer Wolfowitz. While I feel that this category should be deleted as a nonconstructive category violating WP:BATTLEGROUND, it does not meet the requirements for speedy deletion. Misplaced Pages:Ignore all rules states "If a rule prevents you from improving or maintaining Misplaced Pages, ignore it." I don't feel that rules preventing speedy deletion of this category prevent Misplaced Pages from being improved or maintained, so this does not fall under IAR. In addition, the large number of editors who wish for the category to be kept shows that invoking IAR would be far too contentious here. A full discussion should occur on this topic. Ryan Vesey

• Overturn and relist While I appreciate Scott Mac's reasoning, I have always been an advocate that G10 is to be narrowly construed to include only things that no good-faith editor would believe are not an attack. Furthermore, I would be quite hypocritical if I supported a deletion of anything as a personal attack that was in response to (well, "throwing back in my face" might be a better description) something I said which wasn't intended as a personal attack in the first place. Jclemens (talk) 01:27, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
  • Jclemens, by now I am less concerned with the particular remark as I am with the more general divisiveness; I can't really look at the actual discussion and its various motions. I (still) have very mixed feelings about the whole thing but I certainly don't want to single you out, although I realize very well that my 'definition' of the category suggests that. On the one hand, I'm sad at you (syntax coined by my daughter) for having said it, but on the other hand I don't want to denounce you as a person or an editor. As I suggested (on this page? on the original MfD?), the category description can be altered and it need not include the remark you retracted (would that we could unsay things). The solidarity I meant to express was with one particular editor, not against one other particular editor, though I understand that others read that differently. Drmies (talk) 14:52, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
• Overturn - Speedy deletion had already been declined by another admin and only applies to "the most obvious cases"; I think the CfD discussion shows that this was already not an obvious speedy deletion candidate. Whether or not it should be deleted was being discussed at the appropriate venue, and consensus should determine the result, not an admin's opinion. - SudoGhost 02:21, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
• Comment - This entire episode is ludicrous. Lame. Doc talk 09:22, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
• I much preferred when people were protesting this crime against humanity (nay, the Earth itself, if not the Milky Way in its entirety) by not editing at all. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 10:24, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
• Endorse for increase of wikidrama. Mangoe (talk) 12:23, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
• Endorse the category clearly had no purpose other than to attack an editor. That by attacking that editor it also expressed support for another editor makes no difference - if I wrote a disparaging article about a company it wouldn't be disqualified from G10 by the fact that it was expressing support for the company's competitors. Nor does the category serve any useful purpose. User categories exist "to aid in facilitating coordination and collaboration between users for the improvement and development of the encyclopedia", not to further political wikidrama. Hut 8.5 12:35, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
• Endorse and overturn per chris cunningham and writ keeper. --regentspark (comment) 13:55, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
• Endorse deletion - the category is a joke and an attack. The "discussion" was a joke and a series of attacks. The administrator was right to delete it. Buck Winston (talk) 15:47, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
• Endorse deletion. This type of category is clearly prohibited at Misplaced Pages:User categories#Inappropriate types of user categories. Specifically, "Categories that are divisive, provocative, or otherwise disruptive. ... This also includes categories created in protest or to make a point (e.g. Wikipedians whose religion has been deleted by Misplaced Pages)." --MelanieN (talk) 16:37, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
  • I once encountered a fascinating thought at a previous deletion review: "Deletion review is not AfD2". The points many of you are making would be perfectly reasonable -- if only we were having an AfD discussion. We're not -- because it was closed via an improper CSD by an admin who took it upon himself to ignore the discussion at the AfD that was underway. We are here to review that decision in light of the policy that governs the deletion process. Opinions about the desirability of the category are then quite beside the point. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 16:59, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
• Endorse - Wiki-retardation at its finest here. Using categorization to disparage others should not be encouraged. As for the vote tally, who gives a fuck? That such a thing wound up with more keeps than deletes is only indicative that sometimes mob rule needs to be overruled by saner voices. Tarc (talk) 17:32, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
  • Tarc, why would you want to phrase it that way? I'm not sane? I'm part of a lynch mob? Drmies (talk) 17:38, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
  • And why the Ann Coulter-style "retard" insult/prejudice? Go watch The Kingdom, and remember that "the evil eye sees everything". Kiefer.Wolfowitz 18:01, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
• Endorse per Scott's closing comments, WP:POINT and WP:BATTLE. Not to mention that the argument that the CFD was trending to keep is based exclusively on the vote count, which is not how we weigh these things. Virtually none of the keep votes actually presented a policy-based rationale. Given that, and given this category is very obviously intended to flame another editor for a comment - poor as it was - means this should leave little choice other than delete for anyone considering this in a rational, dispassionate matter. This category does not aid the building of this project. Resolute 20:07, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

• in the current climate I am definitely not a Wikipedian. A Wikipedian apparently is someone focused on his or her particular ideas of what is civil, pretty much to the exclusion of anything else. I'm all for basic courtesy, but these self-styled "Wikipedians" often push obnoxious civility POVs, and are themselves amongst the most discourteous members of the user community. I wish to distance myself from this group so I can be justified in returning to content building (which I have stopped). A category like this enables me to do that. As such, it is most certainly an aid to building the encyclopaedia and should not be deleted. The pointy behaviour and battle mentality evident here is coming from people who want this category suppressed. --Epipelagic (talk) 21:02, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

• Endorse as correct application of WP:IAR & WP:ROUGE. If you dislike Jclemens vote him out of office (assuming he even runs again.) This immortalization of a gaffe is just battleground. Tijfo098 (talk) 20:16, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
• Overturn and keep: Seems to be a harmless enough category in which many people wish to be included. If it's a cause of embarrassment to certain arbs and admins, then it can serve them as a useful reminder that Misplaced Pages is inclusive not exclusive. Arbs and admins are subject to the will of the editors rather than here for the megalomaniacal ego trip on which so many seem to be on of which spedy deeting this was a prime example. However, I shall not be joining because I am a Wikipedian and no incompetent, self righteous, small minded Arb will ever be permitted to tae that away from me. Giano (talk) 21:35, 25 October 2012 (UTC)