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Iranian people

I think the article is fine and defines the group clearly. It does mention on top that it is about speakers of Iranian languages. Therefore I don’ think Azeri people are left out. It is mentioned in the top section how this group is primary defined by their usage of Iranian languages. Also the section when the groups are listed, clearly says “languages”

I am an Iranian and I know very well the importance of Azeri contribution to Iranian history and culture but I don’t think it is unfair that they are not included in this article as it is not about nation of Iran rather about Iranian speakers. Azeris might not be Turks, I personally think of them as 100% Iranic, but their language is and this article’s primary focus is on language. Also we can not merge this with Iranian languages since this article is not about those languages but the speakers of those languages. I think Ethnic and cultural assimilation section takes care of the issue of culture and explains that there are groups whose language is not Iranian but everything else about them is. Also, I would love to know the opinion of Azeri Iranians on this issue. thanks Gol 06:50, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, Dear Gol, firstly, welcome back. Secondly, Most of the Iranian Azeris voted above have both academic and Iranian concerns about the wrong use of the term "Iranian peoples" as in this article. The editors, wanted to create something of a linguistic importance, the same as Germanic and Turkic peoples. But we do not have such a thing in established academic texts. So they borrowed a term, which already has a meaning by itself, i.e. "Iranian peoples" and used it. I am not sure what else they could use. But definitely, not "Iranian peoples" which means not the same. We can not invent a meaning here for a term. We really have to look into known university textbooks and see what they use for this grouping of people. Or else, we have to define the way "Iranian peoples" is understood by all. That includes Iranian Turks. I am still waiting for the opposing parties to inclusion of Azeris to come up with some reliable university references where exact term of "Iranian peoples", and not anciant Iranian peoples and no debatable indications, as we are talking about anciant and contemporary people here. None has been provided yet. I shall be convince as well as other Iranian Azeris if we have a number of those texts presented to us using the exact terminology as defined here. No internet back links as it seems that a trend of many interenet info pages using Misplaced Pages and that will be self referencing. 203.48.45.194 09:11, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Please list all references to the usage of the term "Iranian Peoples"

Editors,

This is a friendly request in order, to at least convince myself, for all who think the article is defining the term right, please list all reliable references that use the exact term of Iranian peoples with at least one example with full sentence that indicate the definition explained in this article and in this context, i.e. in a linguistic terms, from academia here. Please only list from univeristy text books and well established encyclopedias like Britanica. I am sure you will have plenty as you are fighting so hard to keep the name of the article as is. To me it is simply wrong, Iranian peoples are not only speakers of Iranian languages and has a much broader meaning.

If you have any comments or discussions, or like some you think the matter is too obvious (either way) for all but to me, please add an extra section and do not mix this section with discussion. However, if you think one listed is not as reliable, you could strike it like this, with a very short comment next to it.

Links are fine so long as they are links to reliable sources as above. Also, please not cite any internet encyclopedias as they mostly copy from Misplaced Pages and it is self referencing to mention them. And Gee how many of them...

Thanks 203.48.45.194 01:53, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Discussions and Comments on the reference list on "Iranian peoples"

Please add your detailed comments and discussions here.

I personally think, ther term Iranian peoples has a much broader meaning. It seems to me that editors were looking for a term such as Turkic or Germanic and they opted this term as they did find or could not come up with similar words to Turkic or Germanic. I think, Iranian peoples are who have lived in Iran and have been known as Iranians at different stages of history and those who are greatly associated with Persian and Iranian identity and culture. That definitely includes great many Iranians of modern Iran as well as members of Iranian community for the past melleniums. Well Azeris and Iranian Turkic people are members of both historical Iranian peoples and modern Iranian peoples. That is why I thought it was not acceptable to exclude them in the article by such name. As repeated by myself and many above, it is not only nationality. It is a metter of identity. If you go back to Nader Shah Afshar and ask him if he was a Turk, he would definitely say yes. But if you also asked him if he was Iranian, he would definitely say yes. If you and ask the a Western king and asked him at that time who Nader Shah was, he would also say, Nader Shah was a Persian King. I believe the same would be in acadmeic texts as well. So I am asking people if they know reliable reference saying otherwise, i.e. defining the term exactly and solely on "Speakers of Iranian languages", repeatedly and in reliable university text books and well established academic records, then be it. But if not, then why so much insisting on borrowing a term from known lexicon of English language and confuse people. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.48.45.194 (talk • contribs) 02:22, 10 May 2006.

It is masteries!!! The supreme leader of Iran is an Azeri but Azeri doesn’t list as Iranian people.(Sampa 06:39, 10 May 2006 (UTC))

Grandmaster this discussion is not your business. you are not Iranian people you are a Turk or Arrani. Then get out of this page.

The articles on Misplaced Pages are not owned by anyone, including yourself. Everyone has a right to edit any page. And yes, I’m not Iranian, I’m an Azeri and this issue has a direct relevance to me. Grandmaster 06:52, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

You are not Azari or Azeri! Azari is some one whose mother and father are Azarbaijani( the real Azarbaijan not fake Republic of Azerbaijan). You are arani.

Very nice. You invented a new ethnicity, congrats. Grandmaster 07:31, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

I see you threat me. Little GRANDMASTER if you are too brave why don’t you capture your occupied land from Armenian!

Please stop threats, and invent one convincing argument why we should redefine term Iranian Peoples from accepted scientific usage to what you just created in your head abdulnr 19:53, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

"Iranian peoples" (or more correctly: Iranic peoples) are a group of more or less related peoples who speak related languages and share (more or less) a common history, heritage, and culture.

While Azeris are deffinitly Iranic by culture and heritage, they are not Iranic by language - the most important factor. Therefore, there is no need to mention them in this article. Of course, this does not count for the historical "Azaris" who spoke the Iranic language known as "Azari". I think that these historical "Azaris" should be mentioned, along with other extinct Iranic peoples such as Skythians or Parthians.

However, peoples like Hazaras or Chahar Aimaq should be mentioned in this article, because they are Iranic by language, though not necessairily Iranic by heritage (they're probably Turko-Mongols).

Tajik 20:26, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Agree completely. With your definition other Iranian (Iranic) peoples like Alans, Ossetians should not be mentioned because they do not belong to Persian civilizatin neither Hazaras should not be because they are Mongolian. Don't you think that Ossetians will feel dejected by not being included into your arbitrary definition. The bast solution is either to work on Turko-Iranian article or Peoples influenced by Iranian civilization article. Remember, that it is Iranian Peoples (plural) we are talking about NOT Iranian people (nation). This has gone for too long, and people still are confused. abdulnr

Well, guys, since there is no consensus, I thought, it would be better to stick to only acadmic sources rather than any opinionative speculations. So basically stick to Misplaced Pages's policy, no research but source an explanation. If no proof exist for the use of Iranian peoples for only ethno-linguistic grouping, then Iranian peoples should talk about Iranian peoples rather than speakers of Iranian languages. If it does, then be it and we stick to the way the article is. No editor in Misplaced Pages is here to do research or to push a POV, even a POV is supported by majority or all.

We all know Azeris speak Turkic now and sometime did not. We all know sensitivities of the issue. Please refrain from treating each other with respect and avoid non academic discussions.

All I am asking is for proof for the way "Iranian peoples" is used in the way in this article describes as on "ethno-linguistic" and primarily linguistic. If no such reference exist, we should move the contents of this article to an article by a name such as "speakers of Iranian languages" and link this page to Iranian demographics or include Azeris. 203.48.45.194 23:35, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Well regarding the academic sources that discuss the Iranian peoples they are varied and often go hand in hand with discussion of Iranian languages. Besides the various sources listed in the article there are these, which do not mention the Azeris as an Iranian people, but one does mention the ancient Azaris and, as Tajik correctly commented, they can be discussed in the article and listed as an ancient Iranian people as well:

The Iranian Peoples of the Caucasus

Indo-Iranian Languages and Peoples

Iranian peoples

"Buddhism among Iranian Peoples" in The Cambridge History of Iran, vol. 3.2: The Seleucid, Parthian and Sasanian Periods, Ehsan Yarshater (ed.). Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1983, 949-964. This refers to mostly the people of Afghanistan and Central Asia who are not, obviously, from the area of modern Iran.

From Scythia to Camelot-Here the Scythians, Sarmatians, and Alans are referred to as Iranian peoples.

The Scythians-Same here.

Various articles in issues of Archaeology Magazine refer to Iranian peoples and their definition corresponds to language usage. For example, I have the issues that discuss the Amazons (as a Sarmatian Iranian people) and issues discussing the Scythians, again an Iranian people. Also, the term Iranic is often used by academics as an alternative just to avoid confusion with the term Iranian peoples, which many misconstrue as a reference only to Iran, when it really is a reference to the Iranic peoples including the Persians, Kurds, Pashtuns, etc. So aside from the Azaris, we really can't discuss any other groups without significantly veering away from common usage. Tombseye 03:42, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

The Problems of including Azeris

Many have argued for the inclusion of the Azeris, while not comprehending what Iranian peoples means and I argued that if this took place, the Kurds would be claimed by the Turks since there would no longer be any defineable criteria. Well check out Talk:Kurdish people and the nonsense that was said there:

That's to say, Kurds are of Turkic origin who mixed with Iranian people.The only diffrence between Kurds and Azeris is that Kurds are a litte bit more mixed with Iranians.Turkish and Kurdish nations must live in peace at Anatolia as they have done for centruies.

Note how similar this rhetoric is to the demands of including the Azeris as an Iranian people. I would like to make clear that none of us who don't want the Azeris included are interested in separatism (at least not that I know of) in the national sense. It is however highly dubious that the Azeris can be included without question as the evidence is conjectural. And if they are, then I see no reason as to why the Turks can't include the Kurds as a Turkic people who adopted an Iranian language since it will no longer matter. Tombseye 00:34, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Lets not bring discussions on other pages here and limit ourselves to academic sources. We can not sacrifice the facts for discussions and rhetorics going elsewhere. You also make the same assumptions again. Azeris claims to be Iranian has nothing to do with their current citizenship. (Some might mention it though, I do not). It has a mellenium long history and Shahs of Iran were all Turkic speaking in the past half a mellenium, except two last ones and Zand dynasty. There is a huge difference between Kurds in Turkey and Turks in Iran. I do not see any parallel there.

By the way, thanks for the sources mentioned above. Speaking of references is more acadmeic approach, I believe rather than side issues such as Kurdish pages, tec. So lets do that. Will go throught them one by one and discuss them later and hopefully we all come to the similar understanding.I will get back to you on that later. I believe they great sources. But they do not claim this is the whole list of Iranian peoples and here is the list of Iranian peoples: 1, 2, blah blah and no one else. And some talk about Iranian peoples in anciant times when Iranians did not speak Turkic at all. Iranian Turks emerged since thousand years ago. If this article only talks and assumes all Iranian people groups before then. Then ok. be it. But this article claims more than than. 203.48.45.194 01:19, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Actually, it's very relevant simply because if people can be claimed based upon arbitrary interpretations of history then the articles are meaningless. By the way, you're a sockpuppet and it's been confirmed here. So, at this point, your opinion has really lost a lot of credibility and the vote stacking makes your votes null and void. The article has made all the concessions necessary at this point, as the Azeris are mentioned in various sections and I will add discussion of the ancient Azaris myself and leave it at that. The simple reality is that the Azeris can't be proven, without a doubt, to be mostly the descedents of an Iranian people because it's also possible that they are a Caucasian people and there is a small element of Turkic admixture as well that is unknown in terms of size. Or they could be a combination, but we don't know for certain. And nitpicking my sources doesn't make a difference really. Professor Carole A. O'Leary Scholar-in-Residence, Center for Global Peace Adjunct Professor, School of International Service at American University's article discusses the Iranian peoples as well. At this point, the discussion is over as many concessions have been made. The end. Tombseye 03:46, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

So this IP voted 3 times? That’s a clear violation of the Wiki rules. Grandmaster 04:16, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Indeed and since this person was the one who initiated this 2nd round of contention and acted dishonestly, I see no reason humor to him. Tombseye 04:32, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Absolutely. That was an obvious attempt to cheat and forge the results of voting. Grandmaster 04:39, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

I am not sure how confirmed it is that those guys did sucketpuppeting!!! But I do not. My IP address belongs to a company of more than 800 people and there are a few Persians and Azeris around. To be honest with you, I only know one of them.

If you do not like civil discussions and like arguments, then Misplaced Pages is yours. I will be leaving it to you guys... Goodbye and hope you enjoy your arguments. 203.48.45.194 05:11, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

By the way, the person who reported my IP address as suspected sucketpuppet, he himself is on probation on Iranian and Persian related topics. See here 203.48.45.194 05:21, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

So what if he is? It does not change the fact that your IP was used by 3 different accounts to vote. Grandmaster 05:48, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

203.48.45.194, I'm not banned from Iran-related articles. SouthernComfort and Aucaman are. Check again. —Khoikhoi 06:07, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Seems like a lot of speculations and Tombseye has already decided it was a confirmed case!!!

I am myself, Persian Magi, who did not start the voting, but added a deadline in voting, and has been quiet due to being busy for the last week or two. Not sure, how, who an if one or more people are sharing the same IP addresses as mine. I work for a big company and quiet a few Iranians, Turks and even people of former Soviet Republic of Azerbaijan work here. We can organize a lezgi dance every Friday night here. Some are great arguers. Phew... Persian Magi 07:09, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Very convincing. I’m also waiting for your another account Gharib Ghorbati to come up with a similar story. And what was this  ? Grandmaster 11:47, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

What speculation? I'm not the one who investigated the matter. At any rate, the entire process is suspect and I believe we can come to some concensus now that some of the subterfuge has been uncovered. Tombseye 14:46, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Columbia Encyclopedia entry on Azerbaijani people

See this: "The Azeri (Azerbaijani), a Turkic-speaking, Shiite Muslim people of Persian culture, make up about 90% of the republic’s population" --ManiF 06:59, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

So? It’s still Turkic-speaking people, isn’t it? Grandmaster 07:03, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Other Encyclopedias have similar definitions for Azerbaijani people. So it should mentioned in the article that Azerbaijani people are a Turkic-speaking people of Persian culture. --ManiF 07:09, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

But it is already there. Please see Grandmaster 07:14, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

It should be stated more boldly. Shervink 10:06, 12 May 2006 (UTC)shervink

Agreed -- - K a s h 10:35, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Okay, now that we've got the Azeris mentioned as a group that is sometimes referred to as culturally Iranian AND the Azaris and others are mentioned and the Azeris are discussed in the cultural assimilation section, can we agree that the matter is closed? Mentioned on 3 separate occassions in the article has given the Azeris quite a bit of coverage that some of the known Iranian peoples haven't received. Cheers. Tombseye 14:48, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

I think you have done a great service - and the matter should be closed. all is mentioned, and mentioned in the article many times. I suggest if similar discussions arise in the future - they should be referred to the archivee of the talk page abdulnr 00:23, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Maps and hidden ancient/contemporary non-Iranic languages

The maps provided in the article only shows geographical extent of Iranic languages but has a wrong impression that the only languages spoken in this geographical area were/are Iranic. It is in no way true. Both in ancient times and even now there have been/are many non-Iranic languages spoken by large populations in this area. For example in the modern map of Iranic languiages both Azeri and Arabic areas are shown as Iranic-speaking area. No mention of non-Iranics. It is highly misleading. It should be corrected or clarified.Togrol 12:38, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Unverifiable claims? And this from someone who claims that the Medes were Turkic people!!! Shervink 13:33, 12 May 2006 (UTC)shervink

I added the term empires so that a reader can understand that this is the extent of Iranian peoples (which is accurate as the map is pretty good) including empires so that should take care of that hopefully. Tombseye 14:50, 12 May 2006 (UTC)