This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Fotoriety (talk | contribs) at 02:14, 17 June 2013 (→Caste and BLPs: Comment). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.
Revision as of 02:14, 17 June 2013 by Fotoriety (talk | contribs) (→Caste and BLPs: Comment)(diff) ← Previous revision | Latest revision (diff) | Newer revision → (diff)Welcome!
Hello, Fotoriety, and welcome to Misplaced Pages! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are some pages that you might find helpful:
- The five pillars of Misplaced Pages
- Tutorial
- How to edit a page and How to develop articles
- How to create your first article (using the Article Wizard if you wish)
- Manual of Style
I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wikipedian! Please sign your messages on discussion pages using four tildes (~~~~); this will automatically insert your username and the date. If you need help, check out Misplaced Pages:Questions, ask me on my talk page, or ask your question on this page and then place {{help me}} before the question. Again, welcome! De728631 (talk) 00:06, 2 November 2011 (UTC)
MfD nomination of Misplaced Pages:Article Incubator/Arrinera Automotive
Misplaced Pages:Article Incubator/Arrinera Automotive, a page you substantially contributed to, has been nominated for deletion. Your opinions on the matter are welcome; please participate in the discussion by adding your comments at Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Article Incubator/Arrinera Automotive and please be sure to sign your comments with four tildes (~~~~). You are free to edit the content of Misplaced Pages:Article Incubator/Arrinera Automotive during the discussion but should not remove the miscellany for deletion template from the top of the page; such a removal will not end the deletion discussion. Thank you. Illia Connell (talk) 03:37, 1 March 2013 (UTC)
Regarding Iranian support for South Yemen
OK, instead of reverting Im gonna put a vague tag, as the quote you mention is at least that, vague and generalistic. Also a citation needed tag, as with that source we cannot state that the South Yemen Movement is supported by Iran. --HCPUNXKID (talk) 13:22, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
- OK, lets be serious with this issue. The statement is clearly vague, as you recognize that it can only be applied to "some factions". OK, so wich factions? 'Cause that's not specific, but rather generalistic. If you cannot answer that question I cannot remove the tag, as it is logic.--HCPUNXKID (talk) 09:49, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
- I think that if the vague tag is added, a citation needed tag should be added to encourage users to find a more clear content source. I hope you agree with that. Regards,--HCPUNXKID (talk) 15:15, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
- OK, you can remove the citation needed tag wich is next to the vague tag, but of course not the top of the page one, as there are other citation needed in the rest of the article.--HCPUNXKID (talk) 11:03, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
- I think that if the vague tag is added, a citation needed tag should be added to encourage users to find a more clear content source. I hope you agree with that. Regards,--HCPUNXKID (talk) 15:15, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
British agents v. abuse in Kenya
The matter of the British agents is being directly investigated and MI5 is obliged to hand over docs. The matter of being badly treated in a gaol in Kenya is certainly relevant to his relationship with Kenyan police, but seemingly has little bearing on cold-blooded murder of someone unrelated to the incident. If a relevant connection between the events is found, then it needs to go in.
While there may be an opinion that he was "changed" by that event, it is clear that he was already radicalised. A "roughing up" by the police was to be expected, given the course he had set himself upon, Particularly since he was one of the older members of a group that included young teens. What were those young kids going to become once they had joined the extremists in Nigeria? Bomb-carriers? Arm-loppers? Serial rapists? That is what they are trained to do.
The significant ting here is that British officials rescued the would-be Islamist, and set him free! And then he whinges to his friends because that people that rescued him keep an eye on him and pressure to to join them! Gratitude? Amandajm (talk) 03:19, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
I am reverting the edit especially after reading your comment hear because it is evident you are not being neutral in any sense. Misplaced Pages is not a forum to whinge about extremists. What his personality was doesn't concern me in the case of building this article. Why do we add that he was hounded by agents according to his friend, and then we reject outright what his friend has said about torture? If we reject one, then we must reject both if it comes from the same source. And you say torture had no relevance to his atrocity; how do you know that? It could have pushed his hatred for security services over the edge - as has been suggested. Anyway, if torture had no relevance to his crime then in what way does agents trying to recruit him have relevance to his crime?Fotoriety (talk) 03:29, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
- Amandjam, the fact that you italicized "rescued" shows that it is a tad unusual. We may have differing opinions on why they were so helpful, but I wouldn't like to speculate further! -- Hillbillyholiday 03:56, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
- The Kenyan episode is relevant insofar as it establishes his "credentials" as a "terror suspect". So, his arrest and deportation are of interest to readers as it is to the intelligence services. But I fail to see how any treatment he received at the hands of Kenyan authorities, before the Brits extracted him, is any relevance. I sincerely hope you are not attempting to imply, through the matter's inclusion, that he has been or will be abused by British authorities like he was allegedly at the hands of the Kenyans. What's more, MA can rant and soapbox as much as he may want about this, but it isn't our job to relay that. Don't forget he put himself at the crime scene, had himself filmed making a rant, and was shot with the murder weapon in his hand. It's about as much as can be substantiated. He's not so much a terrorist as a propaganda mouthpiece for his cause. Of course, he and his family will now be putting up all sorts of smokescreens and excuses as to why he is like what he is like, and why he did what he did. Neither he nor by extension his family are reliable witnesses. In toto, that's why I say the paragraph you insist on inserting is a coatrack. -- Ohc ¿que pasa? 03:59, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
- No i disagree that it is coatrack. & in no way does it imply that British services are going to mistreat him in his detention. You mentioned that the Kenya episode was included as supporting & exposing his terrorist credentials and i totally agree. But torture can also add to those credentials. Nobody is saying his friend or family are being 100% truthful in their claims of torture. However, the edit doesn't mention it with words of certainty - as words like claim and alleged prove. Like i previously said: you can't include his claims of agents approaching him but exclude the torture. Why? Because both are similarly unproven claims from friend/family and both would fall into the category of irrelevance to the crime by your reasoning. The way i see it, such claims can & should be included because they have relevance as preludes & detail to his atrocity - as long as they are stated as such (i.e. claims, allegations).Fotoriety (talk) 04:15, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
- It's not key detail as it's already mentioned many times over that he was being watched by the intelligence agencies. But insofar as the allegations about his being approached by MI5 reported in the article can be justified, they are cursory, and relate to purely stuff that allegedly happened only domestically. The other claims you seek to reinstate are well outside UK jurisdiction, so the basis for inclusion is flimsy at best. Regards, -- Ohc ¿que pasa? 04:33, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
- He also went seeking to engage in terrorism outside UK jurisdiction: so is that also flimsy & shouldn't be instated? These are all preludes to his attack at home. I think it's relevant to include that somebody has gone overseas for terrorism, was caught & possibly tortured - all in the one paragraph. Nobody is asking that we write a thousand words about his conditions in Kenyan detention. But i think torture is definitely relevant & notable enough to be mentioned in this case.Fotoriety (talk) 05:00, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
- It seems that all those remain allegations, because the signs are he was released not because charges were laid and dropped, but because he couldn't be charged with anything in any territory. It only became a domestic matter when consular assistance was invoked. Regards, -- Ohc ¿que pasa? 05:46, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
- Yes, i fully understand that. But that alone doesn't negate it's inclusion.Fotoriety (talk) 06:11, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
- He also went seeking to engage in terrorism outside UK jurisdiction: so is that also flimsy & shouldn't be instated? These are all preludes to his attack at home. I think it's relevant to include that somebody has gone overseas for terrorism, was caught & possibly tortured - all in the one paragraph. Nobody is asking that we write a thousand words about his conditions in Kenyan detention. But i think torture is definitely relevant & notable enough to be mentioned in this case.Fotoriety (talk) 05:00, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
- It's not key detail as it's already mentioned many times over that he was being watched by the intelligence agencies. But insofar as the allegations about his being approached by MI5 reported in the article can be justified, they are cursory, and relate to purely stuff that allegedly happened only domestically. The other claims you seek to reinstate are well outside UK jurisdiction, so the basis for inclusion is flimsy at best. Regards, -- Ohc ¿que pasa? 04:33, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
- No i disagree that it is coatrack. & in no way does it imply that British services are going to mistreat him in his detention. You mentioned that the Kenya episode was included as supporting & exposing his terrorist credentials and i totally agree. But torture can also add to those credentials. Nobody is saying his friend or family are being 100% truthful in their claims of torture. However, the edit doesn't mention it with words of certainty - as words like claim and alleged prove. Like i previously said: you can't include his claims of agents approaching him but exclude the torture. Why? Because both are similarly unproven claims from friend/family and both would fall into the category of irrelevance to the crime by your reasoning. The way i see it, such claims can & should be included because they have relevance as preludes & detail to his atrocity - as long as they are stated as such (i.e. claims, allegations).Fotoriety (talk) 04:15, 27 May 2013 (UTC)
Caste and BLPs
There is consensus that caste should not be stated for living people unless the person has self-identified. Although it is not a perfect exposition, you may wish to read User:Sitush/Common#Castelists as it does set out some of the salient points. Furthermore, in many cases, caste is not even relevant to what people do or, at least, not to those who are sufficiently notable as to have articles on Misplaced Pages. - Sitush (talk) 10:41, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
- Well, can we at least add that she was born into the Brahmin caste? Even if (assuming) she no longer identifies with this caste, isn't it agreeable to add her birth into it? Correct me if i am wrong, but isn't the caste system primarily (if not exclusively) inherited? So wouldn't this warrant this addition to the article, just as hypothetically someone who is born Italian who then disassociates himself from such an identity would still be mentioned as being born of Italian heritage in the article?Fotoriety (talk) 10:50, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
- No. An example of just this discussion has recently taken place at Talk:Narendra Modi. It creates an inference, if only because of the inheritance issue that you menion. - Sitush (talk) 11:17, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
- Where does it mention this? Could you please be more specific because the word caste is only ever used 3 times in that talk pg.Fotoriety (talk) 11:26, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
- No. An example of just this discussion has recently taken place at Talk:Narendra Modi. It creates an inference, if only because of the inheritance issue that you menion. - Sitush (talk) 11:17, 13 June 2013 (UTC)
Who said that news agencies are inferring that she is Brahmin? Actually you are inferring that they are inferring. I don't think numerous sources would state she is Brahmin for no reason; it simply wouldn't make sense. Could you give me a reason they would do such a thing? Whether she identifies as such nowadays doesn't take from the fact that she must have (minimum) been born into this caste.Fotoriety (talk) 02:14, 17 June 2013 (UTC)