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    Click here to add a new enforcement request
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    See also: Logged AE sanctions

    Important informationShortcuts

    Please use this page only to:

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    Important notes:

    1. For a request to succeed, either
    (i) the clear and substantial consensus of (a) uninvolved administrators at AE or (b) uninvolved editors at AN or
    (ii) a passing motion of arbitrators at ARCA
    is required. If consensus at AE or AN is unclear, the status quo prevails.
    1. While asking the enforcing administrator and seeking reviews at AN or AE are not mandatory prior to seeking a decision from the committee, once the committee has reviewed a request, further substantive review at any forum is barred. The sole exception is editors under an active sanction who may still request an easing or removal of the sanction on the grounds that said sanction is no longer needed, but such requests may only be made once every six months, or whatever longer period the committee may specify.
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    Information for administrators processing requests

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    SightWatcher

    This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
    Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

    Request concerning SightWatcher

    User who is submitting this request for enforcement
    Mathsci (talk) 05:32, 7 September 2013 (UTC)
    User against whom enforcement is requested
    SightWatcher (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
    Sanction or remedy to be enforced
    Misplaced Pages:ARBR&I#SightWatcher topic-banned

    SightWatcher was given an extended topic ban following his editing on behalf of Captain Occam.

    Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
    1. Prolonged battleground comment about WP:ARBR&I and me. SightWatcher's name had been mentioned only in passing as one in a list of 10 names. SightWatcher used this as a pretext to make a series of heated statements indistinguishable from comments Captain Occam has been making recently on wikipediocracy.
    2. Edit on WP:ARCA concerning WP:ARBR&I, being discussed privately with arbitrators
    Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)

    After his extended topic ban was imposed in May 2012, SightWatcher has received multiple warnings from arbitrators.

    Additional comments by editor filing complaint

    Recent background In 2013, before September, SightWatcher made only 2 edits to wikipedia. On 29 August an ANI thread was opened about Wer900. I added comments about Wer900's conduct in May 2013. (Wer900 had agreed to act as a proxy-editor for Captain Occam starting an RfAr on his behalf about my "ownership of Poland-related articles".) Captain Occam drew attention to the thread on wikipediocracy and kept up a running commentary, including claims that arbitrators had given permission for the RfAr. After emails with arbitrators, it appears no such decision was made by arbcom. Wer900 has in the meantime reiterated his intention to name me as a party in a future arbcom case but without giving any policy-based reason. My understanding is that arbitrators have no interest in seeing any evidence provided by Captain Occam.

    SightWatcher's edit SightWatcher's name appeared on ANI in a list of editors associated with Captain Occam, without reference to his editing or conduct. The thread started on 29 August. Captain Occam started his running commmentary on wikipediocracy on August 29. On 2 September SightWatcher made a small number of content edits to wikipedia. Before that he had made 5 content edits in 2012 and 2 in 2013. All other edits relate to WP:ARBR&I. In the edit on WP:ANI on 6 September 2013, SightWatcher wrote:

    "Why are you bringing me up again? I've avoided you since the beginning of this year, but you're still talking about me. I do not like my name being brought up in discussions that no longer concern me. I think everyone else is tired of hearing your theories about this, and they don't seem to be getting any traction with arbitrators anymore. For example I see that when you tagged Mors Martell as a sock puppet, an arbitrator removed the tag. "

    SightWatcher has been inactive on the project in 2012-2013. He reappeared on wikipedia only after Captain Occam started commenting on wikipediocracy on 29 August. Given the acknowledged pattern of proxy-editing surrounding Captain Occam, it is hard to explain SightWatcher's reappearance out-of-the-blue as a coincidence. (So far Wer900 has been the only person to have given a clear account of how Captain Occam solicits users to edit on his behalf.) Prior to his edit on ANI, SightWatcher's editing or conduct had not been discussed in any way at all: his username merely appeared in a list of editors that have been associated with Captain Occam. His own association was made explicit by arbitrators in the 2012 R&I review based on evidence provided by Ferahgo the Assassin. SightWatcher's heated comments above are indistinguishable from off-wiki commentary on the same issues by Captain Occam. SightWatcher's edit violates his extended topic ban. It also appears to be yet another edit made in collaboration with Captain Occam/Ferahgo the Assassin.

    Responses
    1st reply to Sandstein: Mathsci is not under any editing restrictions at ANI.
    The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

    No allegations have been made without evidence. All those on the list are either banned, blocked or sanctioned. Blocked users include TrevelyanL85A2, like SightWatcher shown in the R&I review to have been in contact with Occam/Ferahgo; they all edited in support of each other. He was indefinitely blocked by Future Perfect in September 2012 after a topic ban violation, reported by me at AE. This report is comparable; I am under no restrictions concerning either. Other blocked users are: Zeromus1, indef blocked by arbitrators as a sockpuppet of Ferahgo the Assassin; Akuri and Mors Martell, both indef blocked by arbitrators as suspicious accounts. All three gradually gravitated towards R&I arbitration proceedings. In December 2012 I already linked to a wikipediocracy posting of Captain Occam in an amendment request. Roger Davies subsequently asked questions about evidence that apparently had been supplied by Occam. This is similar to what has happened between Occam and Wer900. I have been informed that arbitrators are currently discussing those on-wiki and off-wiki issues concerning Occam & Wer900; the name of the arbitrator who initiated those discussions has been passed on to Sandstein.

    2nd reply to Sandstein: Extended topic ban ≠ interaction ban; can discuss conduct of R&I editors only if own conduct mentioned
    The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

    The one-way interaction bans were imposed on Zeromus1 (now indef blocked), The Devil's Advocate and Cla68. Collect also received a logged warning from Future Perfect at Sunrise. The sanctions imposed by arbcom on TrevelyanL85A2 and SightWatcher are extended topic bans identical to those of Ferahgo the Assassin and Captain Occam. I am not aware of anybody describing them as one-way interaction bans. I have previously reported Captain Occam at AE in November 2010; Ferahgo the Assassin in 2010 and January 2012; and TrevelyanL95A2 in September 2012. Nothing much has changed since then, apart from Occam's activity on wikipediocracy (which started in November 2012) and Echigo mole's decision to stop operating sockpuppets.

    Amendment request, 5 December 2012 In some of his most recent edits, 15 edits back, SightWatcher unsuccessfully appealed his extended topic ban. He simultaneously requested TrevelyanL85A2's extended topic ban to be lifted, even though he was indefinitely blocked, as well as the two one-way interaction bans of The Devil's Advocate and Cla68. Arbitrators discussed interaction bans at length without reaching any conclusions. Apart from Occam's recent heightened activity and outing of me on wikipediocracy, very little has happened since then. Wer900 has made his suggestions about bringing me to justice on behalf of Captain Occam for my "ownership of Poland-related articles". However, in my 17,500+ edits I have never edited any articles on Poland.

    Sandstein could seek clarification if he thinks there have been more interactions than one edit in 2013 and my comments here; or if he thinks he can formulate on his own a decision that arbitrators spent over a month debating without coming to any conclusion. So far I have not suggested what result this report might have. I simply have no idea, beyond some form of advice to SightWatcher.

    I currently feel that I am being harassed by Captain Occam and Wer900. I have privately requested help from the arbitration committee about this. SightWatcher's post comes at exactly the same time. In the circumstances, since he is a friend of Occam's girlfriend Ferahgo and has previously edited in support of them (as arbitrators phrased it), it is hard to see his edit as unrelated to the current flurry of vehemently anti-Mathsci postings of Occam and Wer900 on wikipediocracy. As Roger Davies has remarked, Occam's aim has always been to "write Mathsci out of the equation." It's not hard to see why. After all I helped identify dubious accounts such as Zeromus1, Akuri and Mors Martell, as well as the numerous socks of Mikemikev and the "proxy editing" involved in the R&I review.

    @Timotheus Canens: Thank you for clarifying what you had mind in your instruction. My understanding was that it applied only to Cla68 and The Devil's Advocate. Before Timotheus Canens commented I made a request for clarification at WP:ARCA, since Sandstein's interpretation seemed odd. Could Sandstein please explain himself at WP:ARCA? If have no idea why he is pushing for any kind of block or sanction when it reasonable to presume that I did not consider that the instruction applied to SightWatcher. Cla68 decided that it was expedient to suggest the contrary. Usually Cla68's susggestions, which might or might not violate his interaction ban, have been ignored.

    Other admins involved in the December 5 discussion on AE were Seraphimblade (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) and The ed17 (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA).

    Interaction with Cla68 in the last six months? There were no "interactions" in that period. Cla68 was blocked for two and a half months in March, April and May. His edits can be seen here. There were only three pages where we posted in proximity Talk:Akuri (arbcom blocked disruption-only account), the RfAr on BWilkins (=EatsShootsAndLeaves) and the RfAr on wikipediocracy, which was started by Beeblebrox following a request to the oversight team by me. In the first two cases Cla68 posted after me. The third concerned a blog piece about me which I understand Captain Occam and Cla68 helped prepare. Newyorkbrad described it as "not any valid form of Misplaced Pages criticism, it serves no useful purpose, and they ought to get rid of it, not for our sake but for the sake of the reputation of their site and its values."

    PROXY-EDITING. Newyorkbrad has made a long and very insightful statement in the request for clarification. This request concerning SightWatcher concerns his extended topic ban which involves (a) not discussing topics, issues or users related to WP:ARBR&I unless his own conduct has been mentioned and (b) discontinuing from acting as a proxy-editor for banned users. (It is quite distinct from the one-way interaction bans covered by the "instructions" of Timotheus Cannes/Future Perfect at Sunrise. As TC explained below, he formulated those instructions specifically for Cla68 and The Devil's Advocate after trolling by the community banned user Echigo mole/AK.Nole.) Roger Davies referred to this type of proxy-editor as a "DeviantArt recruitee" in the R&I review. Trevelyanl85A2 and SightWatcher were both sanctioned as DeviantArt recruitees. SightWatcher was reported here because in my view his edit violated points (a) and (b).

    Having read what Newyorkbrad, Johnuniq, Sandstein have written subsequently and what Future Perfect at Sunrise, Timotheus Canens, Roger Davies, Risker and other arbitrators have written in the past, I recognize that the best and probably only way of dealing with this type of editing is in private directly with the arbitration committee. "DeviantArt recruitees" present special problems. Accounts of that kind have included Zeromus1, Akuri and Mors Martell. I therefore request administrators here (or arbitrators) to make a new ruling, which could be logged at WP:ARBR&I, of the following kind (or some variant, possibly mentioning penalties for non-compliance):

    If Mathsci suspects that proxy-editing is happening related to WP:ARBR&I and it cannot be dealt with in a standard way at WP:SPI, then it should be reported in private to arbitrators.

    I hope this is a helpful reponse to comments here and at WP:ARCA. There are other types of proxy editing, also related to Captain Occam, for example & and & , but that is a much greyer area.

    SightWatcher's other edits Given his latest edits here and on WP:ARCA, SightWatcher does seem to be continuing to edit on behalf of Captain Occam and Ferahgo the Assassin, as I stated when opening this request. All these edits appear to have been calculated; but the DeviantArt group has made errors. Here, repeating the disruption in his amendment request on 5 December 2012, SightWatcher is again making a request on behalf of othere, including TrevelyanL85A2, an indefinitely blocked account. SW was already warned by arbitrators then that he was not permitted to make requests on behalf of others. Similarly SightWatcher made no comments during the R&I review, despite being invited to comment by arbcom clerks. The DeviantArt group now characterize the review as a personal attack by me and that my references to my efforts in providing on-wiki evidence about proxy-editing was "gloating". My suspicions when I first made this enforcement request have been borne out by these subsequent edits, which both cross a line. Both read like DeviantArt group attempts to "write Mathsci out of the equation". SightWatcher's edits in project space—in particular the Alice-in-Wonderland request about an IBAN with TrevelyanL85A2 for a second time and the gross mischaracterisation of the R&I review—have now become more disruptive than those of TrevelyanL85A2. I am discussing this in private with arbitrators. I don't actually see how it can be discussed here. I assume that administrators here will take into account these further postings of SightWatcher. AE is not the place for back door attempts by Occam & Ferahgo or their DeviantArt recruitees to get failed arbcom motions passed; nor is WP:ARCA a place to reopen or moan about the R&I review.

    Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

    Discussion concerning SightWatcher

    Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
    Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

    Statement by SightWatcher

    The best solution seems like it would be making all of the interaction bans mutual, as Only in death suggested below. There are four editors under one-way interaction bans with Mathsci: me, TrevelyanL85A2, The Devil's Advocate, and Cla68. These bans have caused an immense amount of drama in the past year, and many arbitration requests and AE threads, but making all the bans mutual might finally stop that. -SightWatcher (talk) 20:57, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

    Statement by Alanyst

    SightWatcher's response to Mathsci reads to me largely as "get off my back, will ya?" with a bit of commentary about how SightWatcher feels the community regards Mathsci's complaints. It does not read to me as an effort to pursue harassment of Mathsci, to engage in debate about race and intelligence, or to fight any kind of battle.

    The text of SightWatcher's R&I topic ban is: "SightWatcher is indefinitely banned from editing and/or discussing the topic of Race and Intelligence on any page of Misplaced Pages, including user talk pages, or from participating in any discussion concerning the conduct of editors who have worked in the topic. This editor may however within reason participate in dispute resolution and noticeboard discussions if their own conduct has been mentioned." Mathsci was the one who mentioned Sightwatcher in the first place, and in my opinion SightWatcher's response was measured and "within reason" as the topic ban allows. I recommend that the requested enforcement action be declined. alanyst 07:04, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

    Statement by Cla68

    Sandstein, you might should check this. Cla68 (talk) 11:39, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

    Sandstein, interaction bans do not prohibit editors from discussing each other in arbitration forums. By the way, could you please either lift the one-way interaction ban I have with Mathsci or else make it two-way in order to make it fair? Mathsci has sought to interact with me numerous times over the past six months or so even though I have avoided him outside of dispute resolution forums. Your action to level this playing field would be much appreciated. Also, please try to convince him the Captain Occam is not hiding under every pillow in Misplaced Pages and is not hiding somewhere in this thread. Futile gesture, but necessary. Cla68 (talk) 12:10, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

    Comment by uninvolved A Quest for Knowledge

    This is a frivolous request. MathSci opened the door by discussing Sightwatcher's conduct. The terms of Sightwatcher's sanction allow them to respond. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 21:49, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

    Statement by uninvolved Wer900

    I'm sick and tired of Mathsci's rehashing of the Captain Occam brouhaha. Mathsci had already started an AN/I thread against me here, in which I explained that I was merely intending to bring about meaningful reform of Misplaced Pages governance with the case, and that I did not endorse any of Captain Occam's views on race and intelligence. In fact, no "case" or "proxy editing" ever happened; as retold here, the most I ever did was to ask now-blocked Viriditas (talk · contribs), a user whom I respect, whether he wanted to take the case on my behalf given my relative inexperience with those aspects of Misplaced Pages. Viriditas declined to take the case (so Mathsci should stop mentioning him), and on the AN/I extracted a promise that I would not edit on Occam's behalf in any way.

    Now, with the current AN/I circus regarding my perceived incivility against Beeblebrox (talk · contribs), Mathsci has tried to once again take center stage by bringing up the mere shadow of a nonexistent case against him and making all on the thread believe that somehow his words have substance. Furthermore, when I discussed an email from AGK which gave me the right to carry on the "proxy-editing" he so reviles (a right that I most certainly do not intend to exercise, for his clarification), he was whipped up in an even greater tempest. Mathsci, I quote the relevant portion of the email (although it only represents AGK's opinion on the matter, and is general advice rather than a writ of certiorari ):

    Ongoing disputes or grievances can always be brought to arbitration, even if one or more parties is blocked. Arbitration requests by proxy are permissible and, procedurally speaking, simple to arrange. Previously, blocked editors have been allowed to contribute to requests for arbitration by either being temporarily unblocked on condition they edit nothing aside from the arbitration request or by arranging to have an arbitration clerk copy over their statement and supplementary comments from the editor's user talk page.

    Again, Mathsci needs to stop bringing me up in regards to this case, stop creating drama, and accept that my actions were not explicitly prohibited, to the best of my knowledge. For the last time, I will not take the R&I case on behalf of Captain Occam; I hope that I have stated this unambiguously for Mathsci to accept and digest. Wer900talk 23:22, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

    Statement by Only in Death

    Before you get sanction happy on Cla68, the two diffs in Mathsci's first collapsed section (89 and 90 respectively) were the last thing Mathsci posted before Cla68's comment. As they directly refer to Cla68 (in fact they only concern him and no one else named here) he is entitled to some response. Just because he has not been named directly, does not allow Mathsci to bait him in this manner, especially given the terms of the ridiculous one-way interaction ban imposed on them. It is textbook gaming. How many times does this need to be pointed out? One-way interaction bans are a terrible idea. They almost never work given the combativeness of the editors they are usually involved with. Either lift it, or make it two-way for a level playing field. Otherwise you are complicit and enabling what is, at this point in time, Mathsci's hounding of other editors through wikipedia processes. Stick a two-way interaction ban on Mathsci and everyone previously under one-way bans, advise him any further process-requests have to be put through a third party administrator (Its not like he is short on friends to do so) and everyone can go back to editing productively. Only in death does duty end (talk) 09:45, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

    Comment by too stupid to stay out of it NE Ent

    Please see also ANI NE Ent 13:32, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

    Statement by (other editor)

    Result concerning SightWatcher

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

    As Alanyst points out, the topic ban contains the proviso that "This editor may however within reason participate in dispute resolution and noticeboard discussions if their own conduct has been mentioned." The edit reported here is broadly within the scope of that exception, even if the part about Mors Martell is not. I don't see how this report's repeated mention of the website Wikipediocracy or another user, Captain Occam, has any relevance to the alleged topic ban violation being reported. I'd leave it at a warning to SightWatcher.

    The post by Mathsci to which SightWatcher replied, in which Mathsci seems to allege without evidence some sort of offwiki conspiracy by editors including SightWatcher, does not strike me as helpful in the least. Considering WP:ARBR&I#Mathsci: admonished, we may want to consider a warning or discretionary sanction with regard to Mathsci. As an aside, the general tone of parts of the ANI discussion is appalling and confirms my impression that the whole noticeboard is now much more a source of disruption than a place in which to resolve it.  Sandstein  07:51, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

    Cla68 links to a sanction requiring Mathsci to "refrain from posting further enforcement requests regarding the interaction bans listed here on-wiki without prior private consultation and agreement from an uninvolved adminstrator familiar with the case". Mathsci, who is the administrator, if any, you consulted with in this case?  Sandstein  12:06, 7 September 2013 (UTC)
    Cla68, you are subject to an interaction ban with Mathsci as noted here. Are there any grounds why you should not be sanctioned for violating that interaction ban with your edit above?  Sandstein  12:12, 7 September 2013 (UTC)
    OK, so far, the only actionable conduct apparent to me from this thread is Mathsci making this enforcement request in violation of their restriction from making such requests without the consent of an administrator, and Cla68 pointing out that restriction in violation of their own interaction ban with Mathsci. I can't make heads or tails of Mathsci's convoluted allegations (which far exceed 500 words and aren't read in any detail for that reason alone) regarding other editors including Captain Occam and Wer900, but at any rate these allegations are not supported by any diffs and explanations linking them to any active remedies under an arbitration case. In view of that, making such allegations is disruptive.

    Taking into consideration the respective findings and sanctions as logged on the case page, as well as the lengthy block log of both users, I intend to block both users for two weeks in enforcement of their respective restrictions, if no other uninvolved administrator disagrees. I will also warn SightWatcher that under the terms of their sanction they may respond to mentions on noticeboards only to the extent necessary to address such mentions, and not to address other topics.  Sandstein  23:13, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

    FWIW, when I wrote my original comment in this thread, the bans I had in mind were the ones I imposed. I didn't have SightWatcher's ban in mind. T. Canens (talk) 03:24, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
    Thanks for the clarification. The wording of the sanction, "the interaction bans listed here", isn't very clear about which interaction bans are meant. I'm pinging the other admins who participated in that thread, @Future Perfect at Sunrise:, @John Carter:, @Heimstern: and @ErrantX: to ask them how they understood the restriction and whether they think that Mathsci's making this enforcement request is sanctionable.  Sandstein  06:33, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
    Acknowledging that theoretically the removal of the word "permission" could potentially be wikilawyered to argue that no sort of "permission" was necessarily required, it does seem to me that this request seems to have not been made in accord with that decision, and thus at least potentially sanctionable, although I am not sure how strong those sanctions should be. It might be a good idea to contact User:Seraphimblade, who took part in that discussion, as well. John Carter (talk) 17:50, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
    John: Thanks for the heads up. I was involved in that thread more at the beginning than the end, regarding some actions that had already taken place. As such, I'll defer interpretation of the end result of that thread to those more deeply involved. Seraphimblade 20:28, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

    The original restriction was designed to stop the problem of somewhat frivolous requests/gaming of the system by Mathsci against individuals he is in conflict with. This seems to exactly qualify as one of those such requests, and Mathsci has failed to follow the restriction. IMO it is important to emphasise the Mathsci that starting up the same behaviour as before is strongly discouraged; he has a tendency (IIRC) to use the lack of a sanction as evidence of his being correct or vindicated. What that sanction amounts to I wouldn't like to suggest; personally I got fed up of his constant battleground conduct (whilst ill and somewhat incapacitated, unable to contribute content, he spent a lot of time pursuing his various disputes on here). I've tried to communicate this problem with him, but that gets exhausting so I decline to bother trying again. Someone else's turn :) --Errant 10:42, 10 September 2013 (UTC)

    Thanks, all. At WP:ARCA#Motion: Mathsci interaction bans (Race and intelligence), an arbitrator has proposed banning Mathsci from interacting with, among others, SightWatcher. To the extent I understand this very convoluted drama, this would probably resolve the situation concerning Mathsci's conduct. As concerns Cla68, they are in my view incorrect to assume that "interaction bans do not prohibit editors from discussing each other in arbitration forums". Per WP:BAN#Exceptions to limited bans, what is exempt is only "engaging in legitimate and necessary dispute resolution, that is, addressing a legitimate concern about the ban itself in an appropriate forum". This does not apply to Cla68's statement in this case because the statement does not relate to Cla68's ban. On the other hand, on the clarification page, arbitrator Newyorkbrad expressed the preference that nobody be blocked in this case. Any other opinions?  Sandstein  16:03, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

    Plot Spoiler

    Plot Spoiler is topic-banned from WP:ARBPIA topics for three months. Sepsis II is warned to avoid the appearance of tendentious editing.  Sandstein  07:45, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
    The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

    This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
    Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

    Request concerning Plot Spoiler

    User who is submitting this request for enforcement
    Sepsis II (talk) 13:31, 7 September 2013 (UTC)
    User against whom enforcement is requested
    Plot Spoiler (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
    Sanction or remedy to be enforced
    Misplaced Pages:ARBPIA#Discretionary sanctions
    Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
    1. Sept 7th PS deleted a source written by Jonathan Cook used to source a statement by Jonathan Cook as "failing WP:RS".
    2. Sept 7th PS deleted a source written by Amnesty International that was being used to source what AI had reported under the guise of "Fails WP:RS"
    3. Sept 7th PS deleted a source by The Electronic Intifada that was being used to source to a statement by EI as "Fails WP:RS"
    4. Sept 7th PS deletes a source written by Reporters without Borders that was being used to source a statement by RWB, as "removing non-RS".
    5. Sept 7th PS deletes a source that was an interview of a man being used as a source for that man's view.
    6. August 12th PS deletes a massive 18,000 bits of information critical of the US in their relations to Iran, again under the guise of "Removal of unreliable sources", sources included the Washington Post, New York Times, Dennis Kucinich, Scott Ritter,Seymour Hersh, United Nations, ABC, BBC, FOX, the Guardian, and more.
    Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)
    1. Warned on April 2010 by Sandstein (talk · contribs)
    2. Blocked on June 2010 by Tariqabjotu (talk · contribs)
    Additional comments by editor filing complaint

    There are countless more edits like these, where he is deleting well sourced information, coming from PS. It is also interesting to note that the majority of his deletions is of information that could readily be classified as anti-Israeli or pro-Arab. The only time I found where PS simply left the information, added a fact tag, and deleted the source, was with this edit -, probably because the sourced material was a criticism of Palestinians. PS seems to have a different standard depending on whether the information is infavour or against Israel/Palestine. He will fight to keep what another editor called a "Self published press release from an advocacy group" - , when the group is pro-Israeli, yet he will fight for deletion when a pro-Israeli organization is being criticized - . I think it is clear this editor is causing great harm to wikipedia and has a clearly pro-Israel bend to his edits.

    Just so everyone knows, I only posted six edits for brevity's sake, there are more, including Sept 7th-removes an IMF transcript used to source information from the IMF, Sept 6th -deletes this source, an article written by Brant Rosen for information about Brant Rosen. Then he goes and puts up for deletion an article (just a coincidence the article's subject supports Palestine) -Sept 6th - though so far only keep votes have been cast. He also makes this edit -Sept 6th where he removes a source for a quote. Even if the source was non reliable, why didn't PS just add another source? Type the quote into google and up comes the BBC and a dozen more reliable sources. No, only someone interested in building Misplaced Pages would do that. Sepsis II (talk) 22:31, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
    So I was just reading the Jewish Virtual Library article, noticed all the "critical" reception was positive so naturally I looked at the history to retrieve the likely deleted criticism. Who did I find? Plot Spoiler - An IP editor removes two paragraphs containing quotes as unsourced; they both had dead links and I can't find the supposed quotes anywhere, points out rightfully that JVL is the only source stating that they won the awards, so the editor adds attribution, and the editor tries to add balance by adding an actual critic of the JVL, though the notability of the critic is light. PS reverts this under the guise of "POV IP warrior removing well-sourced information." Right, adding balance makes one a POV warrior, and removing unsourced information is "removing well-sourced information". This editor has probably been making hundreds of these POV pushing edits under false edit summaries for years now, how much longer should he be allowed to undermine wikipedia's goal of neutrality? Sepsis II (talk) 01:37, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
    Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested


    Discussion concerning Plot Spoiler

    Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
    Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

    Statement by Plot Spoiler

    First, the personal attacks and failure to assume good faith from Sepsis are inappropriate. Secondly, I have just been deleting material that clearly fails WP:RS, such as http://electronicintifada.net and http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/.

    Sepsis is misrepresenting his case that I deleted Jonathan Cook, Amnesty International, or Reporters Without Borders. In all those cases, it was sourced to the Electronic Intifada, which clearly fails WP:RS.

    Ultimately, these issues should be dealt with on the relevant talk page or WP:RSN. WP:AE should not be flippantly abused to intimidate editors and canvass others of similar outlook, which happens far too often.

    If in some way I have erred, please correct me, but http://electronicintifada.net is simply not an RS and has no place being used as a source for factual assertions on Misplaced Pages. Let's not turn this AE into the normal battleground sideshow. Thanks. Plot Spoiler (talk) 16:39, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

    Sepsis has now added a nearly month old edit as #6. He's really out fishing. That edit was designed to correct the severe NPOV issues at Iran–United States relations and eliminate unreliable and self-published sources, such as www.zmag.org/, www.rawstory.com/, kucinich.house.gov, www.tomdispatch.com, mathaba.net, www.iranian.com/, www.globalresearch.ca, and fringe theories from Seymour Hersh. Again, this is an abuse of the AE system for a content dispute that should be handled on the respective talk page, dispute resolution board, or RSN. Plot Spoiler (talk) 23:02, 7 September 2013 (UTC)
    @Sandstein - in the majority of cases, these advocacy organizations were not being used as WP:SELFSOURCE but as sources for factual assertions. This is quite problematic. I apologize for any failures of mine to understand the policy correctly. Plot Spoiler (talk) 15:16, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
    @Sandstein - and in the case of this edit , I recognized that seanhoyland was right and I did not seek to add it back or edit war. Through Sepsis's own edits, you can clearly see a tendentious inclination of using pro-Palestinian advocacy organizations, while rejecting one's s/he deems pro-Israel . Plot Spoiler (talk) 15:20, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
    @RolandR - I have a day job and can't be spending all day on Misplaced Pages collecting this information. I will have it w/in 24 hours. Plot Spoiler (talk) 15:27, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
    @Sandstein @EdJohnston - #6 Iran–United States relations doesn't fall under ARBPIA (and is a month old. Other editors have been sanctioned for bringing up such stale diffs) and @RolandR bringing in Thomas Kaplan also has nothing to do with ARBPIA. RolandR clearly has an ideological axe to grind and is trying to dig up whatever dirt he can find to besmirch me. Can we drop this silliness? I don't see how this doesn't constitute WP:Wikihounding with RolandR stalking my contributions. Plot Spoiler (talk) 20:38, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
    @Sandstein @EdJohnston Under ARBPIA, the only edits at issue are #1 and #2, and I realize I was mistaken since I did not know about the policy WP:SELFSOURCE. It seems that the other editors here aren't abiding by that standard either. See Sepsis II and dlv99 violating exactly that policy through tendentious selection. Plot Spoiler (talk) 20:44, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
    @Sepsis, you are making a fool out of yourself by pulling up non-actionable edits from nearly two years ago that don't reveal anything. Do you think the Tikkun Olam blog is a WP:RS? -- Because it's clearly not. And for you to make any claims of neutrality is laughable -- your edit history makes that quite clear. You only edit in the IP area with a clear ideological slant and nowhere else. In comparison, if you look at my edits and the 22 DYKs I've done, they run the gamut . Furthermore, how do you explain your neutrality based on this sequence of events, in which you are clearly are applying different criteria to sources from different sides of the conflict:
    • - removes an opinion , attributed to a pro-Israel group with an edit summary "camera says camera says, needs third party source" then,
    • - restores an opinion, attributed to a pro-Arab group with an edit summary "EI is a RS for what EI reported"
    @Sandstein @EdJohnston - I hope you can move to close this soon, as it has clearly become an unproductive battleground. Plot Spoiler (talk) 01:57, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

    Statement by Zero0000

    The article Iran-United States relations (which I have never looked at before) is a mess and a lot of pruning is in order. However, you should answer the charge that you only removed material which most people would consider to be anti-US. After your massive deletion, the article is now almost entirely written from a US viewpoint. Zero 04:47, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
    The point raised by Zero could be generalised across the editor's involvement in IP related topics. For instance at Israel and legitimacy the editor removed material cited to an Op-Ed in the La Times with the summary: "non-RS, not notable categorization". The problem is the article contains about 6-7 opinion pieces and Plot-spoiler chose to remove one of the only ones not in support of the Israeli position, further skewing a non-neutral article away from NPOV. In the midst of his mass deletion of sources and material presenting the Palestinian perspective in topics related to the IP conflict on the basis of "non-RS" the editor chose to restore content cited only to a self published press release of a pro-Israel advocacy group.
    I would be interested to see an explanation from the editor of how this edit pattern is consistent with the policies and purposes of the encyclopaedia. Dlv999 (talk) 08:51, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

    Statement by RolandR

    The problem here is not just one article, but Plot Spoiler's claim, repeated above, that Electronic Intifada "is simply not an RS and has no place being used as a source for factual assertions on Misplaced Pages". This is certainly not what has been decided in several discussions on the Reliable Sources Noticeboard; rather, it has been found repeatedly that justification for each specific use depends on the context in which it is cited. Plot Spoiler, however, seems to be on a one-person mission to remove all references to EI (and to Mondoweiss), whether used accurately or inaccurately, to verify factual assertions or to give an example of an opinion, or even as evidence that a particular article was indeed written. This is unacceptably tendentious editing, particularly when combined with the addition by PS of material sourced to CAMERA. I'm not sure what an appropriate sanction might be; but, at the very least, Plot Spoiler should not be permitted to remove sources, citations and references without explaining his/her reason clearly in the associated talk page. A blanket, unsupported, assertion in an edit summary that these sources "fail RS" is simply not sufficient. RolandR (talk) 12:04, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

    Plot Spoiler now argues that "in the majority of cases, these advocacy organizations were not being used as WP:SELFSOURCE but as sources for factual assertions." In submitting this case, Sepsis listed six instances of PS removing sources, sometimes with text as well. In which of these cases was an "advocacy organisation" being used as a source for factual assertions, rather than as evidence that a named individual or group had expressed opinions? RolandR (talk) 15:23, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
    And see also PS's edits at Thomas Kaplan, where s/he has been repeatedly removing soourced information, while adding an unambiguous copyvio of the source s/he cites. RolandR (talk) 20:30, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
    Re Sandstein's comment below, I'm not sure what diffs he is asking for. Most of my remarks related to the diffs supplied by Sepsis above; I have now added diffs of the repeated unambiguous copyvio on Thomas Kaplan; the second time with the edit summary " where exactly is the copyvio?". RolandR (talk) 22:44, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

    Statement by AgadaUrbanit

    @Sandstein and EdJohnston: Maybe Diff from 7 September 2013 might be relevant to this enforcement request? Specifically concerns of WP:WIKIHOUNDING. AgadaUrbanit (talk) 23:43, 9 September 2013 (UTC)


    Statement by Sisoo vesimhu

    @Ed Johnston: , if "Applying different criteria to sources from different sides of the conflict could certainly qualify as tendentious editing." - how should we treat the following sequence of edits from the editor filing this complaint:

    • - removes an opinion , attributed to a pro-Israel group with an edit summary "camera says camera says, needs third party source"

    then,

    • - restores an opinion, attributed to a pro-Arab group with an edit summary "EI is a RS for what EI reported"

    I think you are being gamed here, by someone who does not come to the board with clean hands. Sisoo vesimhu (talk) 16:18, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

    Result concerning Plot Spoiler

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

    My understanding of the relevant policies is the following: Advocacy organizations such as Electronic Intifada are not normally reliable sources. However, per WP:SELFSOURCE, they can be used to reference statements about themselves, such as opinions expressed by them. There may be valid editorial reasons to remove such statements from an article, such as neutrality or WP:QUOTEFARM, but WP:RS is not not normally a valid reason for such removals, unless one of the caveats of WP:SELFSOURCE is invoked (e.g., unduly self-serving or exceptional claims).

    On that basis, Plot Spoiler's invocation of WP:RS as grounds for the removal of the self-sourced material at issue appears to be based on an erroneous interpretation of WP:RS. That, in and of itself, would be a matter of content and not grounds for sanctions. But as pointed out by Dlv999 and others, Plot Spoiler has on at least one occasion added material self-sourced to a pro-Israeli advocacy organization to an article (), whereas all the self-sourced material Plot Spoiler removed in the instances reported here pertained to pro-Palestinian advocacy organizations. This gives the appearance of tendentious editing, which violates WP:NPOV in its aspect as a conduct policy. I invite other administrators to comment on whether this suffices as a basis for sanctions such as a topic ban.  Sandstein  14:44, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

    Applying different criteria to sources from different sides of the conflict could certainly qualify as tendentious editing. I agree that the first two diffs tend to support the case against Plot Spoiler. It's hard to see why a signed article by the journalist Jonathan Cook, even when published in Electronic Intifada, should not be accepted as evidence for the views of Jonathan Cook. The second diff is about a claim of poisoning farm fields. It was rejected on sourcing grounds by Plot Spoiler due to its publication in Electronic Intifada even though it's merely a reprint of a press release from Amnesty International. The identical text can easily be found on Amnesty's own site. In neither case would the use of EI as a reference be implying any reliance on EI's judgment on matters of fact. Diffs #3 - 5 do rely on the quality of reporting at EI so I can see how one could argue against accepting those cites on the ground that EI is not a RS. Diff #6 involves removal of sources such as the Washington Post so the removal of these citations by Plot Spoiler makes no sense at all. EdJohnston (talk) 18:01, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
    Agreed. - RolandR, please substantiate your allegations with diffs, or they are worse than useless - allegations of misconduct without proof are disruptive.  Sandstein  20:34, 9 September 2013 (UTC) – Thanks for providing the diffs.
    OK, time to close this. The evidence establishes that Plot Spoiler has engaged in tendentious editing by using allegedly unreliable sources when they support a particular point of view, but not when they support another. It also shows that he violated copyright at on 9 September 2013 by copying sentences nearly verbatim from without labeling them as quotations. To prevent future problematic editing of that sort, Plot Spoiler is topic-banned from everything related to the Arab-Israeli conflict, initially for three months. The ban may be extended if it is not observed or if similar problems with Plot Spoiler's editing appear in other topic areas.

    The diffs provided of Sepsis II's editing, and , do not lead me to believe that similar sanctions are needed with respect to Sepsis II at this time, because it does not show a different application of sourcing policy based on whose side the sources are on. But it does show an inclination to accept one side's advocacy groups' reports and not the other's. Sepsis II is warned to avoid the appearance of tendentious editing in the future. In general, it seems to me that editors would do well not to use advocacy groups from either side as sources at all, or extremely sparingly.  Sandstein  07:42, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

    Jamesx12345

    This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
    Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

    Request concerning Jamesx12345

    User who is submitting this request for enforcement
    SonofSetanta (talk) 16:31, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
    User against whom enforcement is requested
    Jamesx12345 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
    Sanction or remedy to be enforced
    Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/The_Troubles#Final_remedies_for_AE_case
    Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
    1. 10:09:2013 Revert
    2. 10:09:2013 Revert
    3. 10:09:2013 Revert
    4. Date Explanation
    Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)
    1. Warned on Date by Name of user who made warning 1 (talk · contribs)
    2. Warned on Date by Name of user who made warning 2. If there is no warning 2, delete this entire line (talk · contribs)
    Additional comments by editor filing complaint

    Edit war at Gerry Adams

    Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

    User_talk:Jamesx12345#11_09_2013


    Discussion concerning Jamesx12345

    Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
    Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

    Statement by Jamesx12345

    I appreciate I may be in violation of the revert rule, and am happy to accept the consequences, whatever they may be. However, I would be clear that I was removing edits that went completely against established consensus. I don't feel that I what I did was any different to reverting ordinary vandalism, but am open to correction. It is unfortunate that I was involved in a very similar situation a few weeks ago, which may suggest I am frequently involved in disruptive behaviour, but I hope you will see that is not the case from my archives. James12345 17:46, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

    Statement by Murry1975

    I was the one who originally revert the newbie (see below for his case), James12345 came across this users further actions and revert using Huggle, using the edit summary "Factual Errors". As far as I am aware, BLP edits that are "of libelous, biased, unsourced, or poorly sourced contentious material" maybe removed, I understand that it is not a get out of jail free card, and can still lead to sanctions on both parties but I believe James was acting in good faith against a newbie pushing his point of view in highly contentious area. A brief look at James' editing shows a constructive editor, on here a little over a year with nearly 14,000 edits and a clear block log. He unfortunately, while acting in good faith reverted too many times, but I believe the exeption should be used due to the single purpose of the newbie account, and James trying to maintain the basic principles of the encyclopedia. Murry1975 (talk) 20:09, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

    Comment made by SoS on MO ainm's tlkpage "but still smarting from a topic ban as I am I'm not going to let a blatant edit war like this go ahead", about this request being made against James. Murry1975 (talk) 15:49, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

    Statement by (SonofSetanta)

    @Ed Johnston. Misplaced Pages:Banning_policy#Topic_ban makes it clear that there are exceptions to the ban including reverting obvious vandalism which this obviously was. I chose not to make a revert but to bring the case to AE. SonofSetanta (talk) 11:49, 12 September 2013 (UTC)


    Statement by uninvolved A Quest for Knowledge

    Wow, am I reading this correctly? SonofSetanta filed a RfE in an area they're topic-banned from?! Anyway, if I counted correctly, they've already been sanctioned 6 times in this topic-space. Apparently, they haven't learned that they need to drop the stick. I'd suggest a block of maybe a month or so. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 16:51, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

    Result concerning Jamesx12345

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

    • This complaint was filed by SonofSetanta. That editor has been indefinitely topic banned from everything related to the Troubles. His ban applies across all of Misplaced Pages space. He may not file complaints against others regarding their edits to Troubles articles as long as his own ban is still active. I suggest this be closed with a warning or other sanction of SonofSetanta. EdJohnston (talk) 20:28, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
    @SonofSetanta: Your filing here is not covered by the vandalism exception of WP:BAN: "Reverting obvious vandalism (such as replacing a page with obscenities) or obvious violations of the policy about biographies of living persons." Jamesx12345 was not replacing a page with obscenities. In fact, he was restoring the long-term language about Gerry Adams' nationality, though he made the mistake of breaking 1RR while doing so. Questions about someone's nationality are open to reasonable disagreement. Though certain edits may be judged to be tendentious editing, they are not the same as vandalism. There is no exemption from your own topic ban to revert tendentious edits or to report such edits at AE. EdJohnston (talk) 16:08, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
    • I'd suggest tightening the topic ban on SonofSetanta, revoking that standard vandalism/blp exceptions to topic bans. Emphasis that the only permitted edits at all related to The Troubles are appeals of the topic ban, with no other exceptions. Caution Jamesx12345 to exercise more care when using huggle to repeatedly revert edits that are not unambiguous vandalism. Monty845 21:36, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
    @SonofSetanta Could you explain why you created this userpage? Monty845 21:41, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

    User:Benobikenobi

    User:Benobikenobi has been warned under WP:TROUBLES but due to his indef block there isn't much else that needs doing here. EdJohnston (talk) 16:32, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
    The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.


    Request concerning User:Benobikenobi

    User who is submitting this request for enforcement
    SonofSetanta (talk) 16:45, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
    User against whom enforcement is requested
    Benobikenobi (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
    Sanction or remedy to be enforced
    Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/The_Troubles#Final_remedies_for_AE_case
    Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
    1. 11:09:2013 Revert
    2. 11:09:2013 Revert
    3. 11:09:2013 Revert
    4. 11:09:2013 Revert
    5. 11:09:2013 Revert
    6. 11:09:2013 Revert
    7. 11:09:2013 Revert
    8. 11:09:2013 Revert
    Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)
    1. Warned on 11:09:2013 by Mo ainm (talk · contribs)
    Additional comments by editor filing complaint

    Serious editwarring at Gerry Adams

    Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

    User_talk:Benobikenobi#11th_September_2013

    Discussion concerning User:Benobikenobi

    Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
    Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

    Statement by User:Benobikenobi

    Statement by (SonofSetanta)

    @Floquenbeam. May I suggest you let this one play out until we see what can be done to save the editor - or if he can't be saved? SonofSetanta (talk) 17:14, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

    Statement by Murry1975

    @EdJohnston, will he be added to the Troubles sanction list (or whatever its called)? Murry1975 (talk) 20:12, 11 September 2013 (UTC) @Floq, thats why I was asking, for clarity. Murry1975 (talk) 20:36, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

    Result concerning User:Benobikenobi

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above. This user was reported at ANI, and unaware that there was an AE request up, I just blocked him indef for edit warring immediately after a previous EW block expired, and for promising to continue no matter what. Not sure how these things are closed, so I'll be lazy and leave it to someone with more AE clue than me. --Floquenbeam (talk) 17:01, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

    • If he's indef blocked then there's not much point in applying additional sanctions. I suggest that this be closed with no AE action, at least for now. He has already received the warning of the Troubles sanctions. EdJohnston (talk) 20:03, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
    • Murry, as the blocking admin (who as I said above was unaware of this AE request when I blocked), I don't consider my block an AE block. It was just a block of someone who specifically said they were hell-bent on edit warring forever. --Floquenbeam (talk) 20:29, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

    Sisoo vesimhu

    This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
    Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

    Request concerning Sisoo vesimhu

    User who is submitting this request for enforcement
    RolandR (talk) 17:45, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
    User against whom enforcement is requested
    Sisoo vesimhu (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
    Sanction or remedy to be enforced
    Misplaced Pages:ARBPIA#Discretionary sanctions
    Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
    1. 17:59, 12 September 2013 This edit is a breach of the 1RR restriction, as the editor had previously made the same edit at 22:44, 11 September 2013
    Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (if required)
    1. Warned on 24 January 2013 by Nableezy (talk · contribs)
    Additional comments by editor filing complaint

    There is an ongoing sockpuppetry investigation into this account. Checkuser has already confirmed matching accounts.

    Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

    Here


    Discussion concerning Sisoo vesimhu

    Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
    Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

    Statement by Sisoo vesimhu

    Statement by (username)

    Result concerning Sisoo vesimhu

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

    Discretionary sanctions review

    (This is a repeat of an earlier notice. This notice is posted here, on the actual AE board, because the talk page is a redirect.) Since March 2013, various individual members of the Arbitration Committee have been reviewing the existing Discretionary sanctions process, with a view to (i) simplifying its operation and (ii) updating its procedures to reflect various clarification and amendment requests. An updated draft of the procedure is available for scrutiny and discussion here. AGK 16:45, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

    Discuss this.