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Proposal for new policy
(This proposal was originally posted at Misplaced Pages talk:Policies and guidelines#Limitations of RS+NOR, with a solution, but I was asked to post it at WT:RS and WT:NOR, and, by implication, here.)
Limitations of RS+NOR+VERIFY, with a solution (Rev. 1):
The motivation for this discussion is my frequent annoyance over the years with articles that don't explain things well, or don't give enough information, because experts can't simply write what they know, due to NOR and the need for RS.
An example is Sailing faster than the wind, where section "BOLD EDIT NOTICE" of its Talk page presents an excellent explanation (the analogy of a geared transmission) that couldn't be included in the article due to NOR and lack of RS. I personally believe that this explanation is actually correct, making this a very nice example, but it doesn't actually matter if this explanation is correct or not, just as we can rarely be sure that any information in any article is complete and correct, even when lots of RS have been cited. And, while I'm providing this as a motivational example, I want to discuss WP policies and guidelines here, not details of this example.
Now to get to the proposal: reliance on the availability of good RSs leads to a good encyclopedia, but this technique has limitations. Once in a while a Talk page provides some OR explanation that is clearer that the explanation given in the article. This example, I believe, is such a case. While this isn't the purpose of a Talk page, it is a very valuable service for WP readers who read the Talk pages as well the articles, as I do.
It also shows an inherent limitation of the RS+NOR policies, as applied to articles. An improved WP policy, and the solution I'm offering for discussion here, would be to allow OR explanations or knowledge in articles and Talk pages, without a reference, until someone provides a good OR reason to object to them, or an RS is found that supports a good replacement. Note that this implies that the information added without RS must be uncontroversial. Any unresolved argument among editors cancels this new policy and falls back to requiring RSs.
This new policy also applies to the large percentage of (mostly old) articles that contain no references or insufficient references. That means that presumably correct information in these many articles cannot simply be deleted by any editor. There must be an objection to it, with the opportunity to discuss the deletion on the Talk page. This allows some protection for old yet correct information.
This would be an additional policy, modifying the RS, NOR, and VERIFY policies, or would be a modification of the RS, NOR, and VERIFY policies themselves (I'm not specifying which here).
In addition to the above, this proposal affects the VERIFY policy by requiring modification to explain the situations in which OR without RS will be allowed. These situations are explained above. I will be happy to provide explicit revisions to all affected policies if this discussion eventually results in agreement. David Spector (talk) 13:26, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
- Oppose: WP is intended for a general readership. Editors should not be placed in a position where they can be told that they can't remove unsourced information because someone allegedly versed in the technical areas covered by the article knows better than they do. I find it antithetical to existing WP policy to espouse a policy that renders unsourced and potentially unverifiable information inviolate. Editors have already faced difficult situations in some cases where they removed unsourced information, even information that had been challenged for months before they did anything more serious about it. If editors cannot or will not source information, especially information that has been challenged long-term, than they should not be able to prevent its removal by claiming nothing more than, "We know this is true and we don't think it's controversial." In fact, I think once information has been challenged it should effectively be considered controversial. Given that you say any unresolved argument among editors cancels this policy, does this not basically boil down to, "You must challenge the information via a method that does not involve its removal before you may proceed with removing it?" DonIago (talk) 16:51, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
- Oppose. Misplaced Pages is not an appropriate place for the publication of original research, regardless of whether other contributors think that it is 'uncontroversial'. This proposal radically alters the whole ethos of Misplaced Pages, and could only ever lead to a reduction in article quality. AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:12, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
- If a piece of OR really is absolutely uncontroversial (i.e. not "challenged or likely to be challenged") then in fact policy already allows this. What triggers the effect of policy is the act of disputing something (e.g. by changing or removing it). At that point we resolve the dispute by reference to sources. But if nobody challenges it and nobody is likely to challenge it, then whatever you've written can stand unchallenged forever. I would be opposed to altering the wording of the policy because it's unnecessary to achieve what you want.—S Marshall T/C 17:30, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
- This idea has also gotten a less than welcoming reception at the long discussion at Misplaced Pages talk:Identifying reliable sources. Nothing you have written changes the gist of my response: if you cannot find a cite to support adding content, then sorry -- out of luck on the Pedia -- or not enough work has been done to find the cite. The reason a source is important beyond the information itself, is because they serve an important function in vetting the information for its acceptance and reliability. Alanscottwalker (talk) 18:12, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
- Support - I understand the proposer to be introducing a new class of material - "Tutorial material" - material which is useful in Misplaced Pages, but comes under class (B) in
- Oppose – This is a recipe for disaster. The ban on original research is the main reason Misplaced Pages is such a useful resource and weakening it has to be done only with very great care. But no such care is visible here and no suitable proposed wording has been presented. Zero 23:34, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
- Oppose per Zero and Andy. This should not have been posted at the other talk page or even at this talk page. The suggestion on the other talk page was to post it here or at WP:VPP. For a change of this kind, VPP would be a better place. Why David thinks it's "too informal" is beyond me.--Bbb23 (talk) 23:47, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
- Oppose per BBB23. Misplaced Pages is not Citizendium. Indeed, WP would not even be as good as Citizendium because it would not have CD's equivalent of peer review. People who use Misplaced Pages need to be able to confirm what they read here and not have to depend on self-appointed experts. — TransporterMan (TALK) 00:05, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
- Lets look at an example - the editors the article Complex number introduced the subject with this example. I don't know if this example was the creation of the author in question or if (s)he copied it from a text book. In either respect, it is hardly cutting-edge science - any maths undergraduate can confirm that it is correct. Where does this stand in terms of WP:VER and of WP:OR? BTW, the page in question gets between 1000 and 2000 hits a day and is ranked at about 7000 in terms of numbers of visitors. Martinvl (talk) 00:27, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
- Without looking at the article, if anybody who understands the subject can tell you that the example is accurate, then it's fine. What we might need is a statement directly about the acceptability of giving obviously correct examples, comparisons, etc. We do have a small but dedicated number of editors who apparently believe that if it's not what the rest of us call plagiarism, then it's a NOR violation. I assume that this proposal is born out of long experience with such editors. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:56, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
- I was going to provide a tldr reply, but I can't say it better than what Doniago said at 12:31, 19 August 2013, and Monty845 said at 13:42, 19 August 2013, both just below. — TransporterMan (TALK) 14:23, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
- Without looking at the article, if anybody who understands the subject can tell you that the example is accurate, then it's fine. What we might need is a statement directly about the acceptability of giving obviously correct examples, comparisons, etc. We do have a small but dedicated number of editors who apparently believe that if it's not what the rest of us call plagiarism, then it's a NOR violation. I assume that this proposal is born out of long experience with such editors. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:56, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
- Lets look at an example - the editors the article Complex number introduced the subject with this example. I don't know if this example was the creation of the author in question or if (s)he copied it from a text book. In either respect, it is hardly cutting-edge science - any maths undergraduate can confirm that it is correct. Where does this stand in terms of WP:VER and of WP:OR? BTW, the page in question gets between 1000 and 2000 hits a day and is ranked at about 7000 in terms of numbers of visitors. Martinvl (talk) 00:27, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
- Oppose, but with some sympathy for the types of problems that I think are causing this proposal. The thing is that I think editing suggestions which put things nicely are either blocked by other editors because their is a controversial amount of non-obvious originality or else because of a misunderstanding of the policies we already have. As per WhatamIdoing, I can perhaps imagine that some wording tweaks in policy might be possible, but I think openly calling for originality will not work.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 09:35, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
- A good deal of the problem is caused by the sentence "must be able to cite reliable, published sources that are directly related to the topic of the article, and directly support the material being presented". Editors who might not understand the subject often look for in-line citations when in fact they are not necessary, or when "being able to cite" material is a matter of the expert saying "Here is a list of text books, all of which discuss the subject. Which one do you want?". Martinvl (talk) 10:06, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
- This seems a bit misleading to me. In my experience the easiest way to resolve these situations, not to mention satisfy WP:BURDEN is to provide a source, not to get into a debate over the issue. An expert on the subject should be able to provide a source, and ideally should recognize that arguing over it wastes far more time and effort on the part of all parties. Why ask which source should be provided rather than simply choosing one and providing it? If the expert provides a source and the source itself is then challenged, then there's grounds for a more serious discussion of the matter.
- That said, I question the use of the term "expert" in any case. I certainly don't know who here is an expert on what subject matter, and unless there are procedures for official recognition of "expert" status on WP...if there are I've never seen it come up...then nobody should wield the "expert" stick because it should be abundantly obvious that anyone can claim they're an expert on anything without that actually being the case. DonIago (talk) 12:31, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
- Moral Support/Practical Oppose I wish there was a way for this to work, but as a practical matter, I just don't seen a standard to apply that gives more leeway then WP:Burden that wouldn't do more collateral damage then good. Requiring the opponent of inclusion to come up with a source to disprove something is simply unreasonable, if its hard to find a reference that provides a specific example, it will be far harder/impossible to find a reference that disproves it. What we really would need is editors to only invoke burden if they really do have a strong, good faith belief that the material is not accurate, and otherwise leave the material in. But the problem is that basing a decision on the subjective motive of an editor, rather an objective standard of what RS provides is just asking for Drama and baseless accusations of bad faith. I just don't see a way for the idea to work in practice. Monty845 13:42, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
- Support (sort of) This is an important problem which has caused Misplaced Pages to plateau out in several areas. But it really doesn't need a new policy. It just needs:
- An important tweak in current policy to bring the mechanics of the policy in line with (rather than conflicting with) the spirit defined by "challenged or likely to be challenged". So it would remain just as easy to knock out unsourced questioned material, but harder to knock out unquestioned material for bad reasons.
- Explanation (maybe a guideline) to kill some immensely rampant-in-Misplaced Pages destructive urban legends which have no basis in policy. Namely that verifiability is a force for inclusion rather than just a requirement for inclusion.
- Together these two would enable expertise in editing without weakening wp:ver North8000 (talk) 13:52, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
- Oppose At least, not here on WP. We have other projects where this might make sense and be more welcome, such as Wikiversity. WP cannot have a mechanism that could make this work without abandoning the principle of "anyone can edit", without which WP would die a slow and painful death. LeadSongDog come howl! 18:30, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
- I don't see where their proposal (vague as it is) would affect that. North8000 (talk) 11:48, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
- Oppose. An expert's unsourced opinion might (but not always!) be more reliable than some non-expert's citation of random sources, but the proposal says nothing about expert qualifications; this proposal would allow all kinds of junk from anyone that "knows" something to be true. If there is a problem regarding the scope an editor has in formulating examples (etc.) that should be discussed at NOR. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 18:42, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
Thank you. I did not see any insurmountable objections to my proposal. Here are my responses to these responses. Interspersing them would interfere with their flow, so I've grouped them all here. Please feel free to continue the discussion. David Spector (talk) 17:16, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- DonIago, "WP is intended for a general readership. Editors should not be placed in a position where they can be told that they can't remove unsourced information because someone allegedly versed in the technical areas covered by the article knows better than they do." WP is not all intended for a general readership, by your implied definition. Many of the mathematics articles simply cannot be understood by your general readers, because they may not be educated in that technical area. The same is true of physics, and many other topics. You may have misinterpreted my frequent use of the word expert. I don't mean it to refer to someone who is highly educated in some specialty. A person who has played with toys called Beyblades may only be a teenager, yet may be an expert in that subject. She may meaningfully contribute correct information about the toy's operation, even though no one can find a single RS corroborating that information. Assuming that the toy itself is NOTABLE, the new information improves WP coverage of it. My proposal would protect that information until either a source can be found, or someone else corrects it. My proposal helps WP to grow organically, as it is meant to do. "I find it antithetical to existing WP policy to espouse a policy that renders unsourced and potentially unverifiable information inviolate." My proposal shows confidence in the editors. This is a good thing, and follows WP principles. Also, you are actually incorrect. My proposal only protects information until it is challenged. As soon as it is challenged and the challenge seems to hold, my proposal no longer applies. "Editors have already faced difficult situations in some cases where they removed unsourced information, even information that had been challenged for months before they did anything more serious about it." I'm not sure what your point is here. Please explain. "If editors cannot or will not source information, especially information that has been challenged long-term, than they should not be able to prevent its removal by claiming nothing more than, "We know this is true and we don't think it's controversial." If you mean that one editor claims the change is controversial and another claims it isn't, then it's controversial and the proposed policy no longer applies. If one of the editors is unhappy with the resulting situation, they are free to make use of the existing mechanisms for resolving disputes about policy. "In fact, I think once information has been challenged it should effectively be considered controversial." Exactly, that's correct. "does this not basically boil down to, 'You must challenge the information via a method that does not involve its removal before you may proceed with removing it?'" Yes, that is part of the implication. The proposal delays removal until there is a reasonable challenge (a wild claim with no rationale by an IP editor would not be reasonable). The proposed policy provides explicit protection for information currently at the mercy of anyone to delete.
- AndyTheGrump, "Misplaced Pages is not an appropriate place for the publication of original research..." I agree. The proposal should not be interpreted as establishing WP as a place for first publication of academic research. However, if someone knows something valuable about a subject, that will improve understanding of it, something that ought to have an RS but for some reason does not yet seem to have one, this proposed policy would allow that "expert" to share her knowledge with us. The safety in doing so is that another "expert" can claim that this alleged knowledge is highly unlikely, and explain why. Such a reasoned response cancels "OR without RS" instantly. "This proposal radically alters the whole ethos of Misplaced Pages, and could only ever lead to a reduction in article quality." I'm not sure what "ethos" means, but could you explain how my proposal, in allowing experts to contribute, will always reduce article quality? That would seem to be a contradiction, since WP has always benefitted from experts in all fields.
- S Marshall, "If a piece of OR really is absolutely uncontroversial (i.e. not "challenged or likely to be challenged") then in fact policy already allows this." Sorry, no. WP:NOR forbids adding information known by the editor, no matter how sure the editor is. WP:RS forbids adding anything for which a RS cannot be found. "What triggers the effect of policy is the act of disputing something (e.g. by changing or removing it)." It may look that way, but it is not so. An editor is allowed to remove text when it violates policy--the editor is not permitted to "dispute" policy by doing removals of text anywhere she pleases. On the other hand, she is permitted to dispute any text on the Talk page for the article. "But if nobody challenges it and nobody is likely to challenge it, then whatever you've written can stand unchallenged forever." In practice, this is exactly what happens, especially in older articles. My proposal modifies policy to allow this common case. "I would be opposed to altering the wording of the policy because it's unnecessary to achieve what you want." Currently, anyone can delete up to 25% of WP, because is consists of statements having no references. And many of those statements are true, but there are no RSs that will support them. My proposal will achieve protection and a rationale for keeping all this valuable information in WP until corroboration (or dis-corroboration) is found.
- Alanscottwalker, "This idea has also gotten a less than welcoming reception at..." I have responded to all comments there, as here. So far, I have seen little true understanding of my proposal and no objection that could not be easily countered. I think my proposal is doing very well so far, considering the experience of the long-term editors who are contributing to this discusssion. "...if you cannot find a cite to support adding content, then sorry -- out of luck on the Pedia -- or not enough work has been done to find the cite." Yes, that is the current policy, you're simply repeating it. Repeating it doesn't argue for it. "The reason a source is important beyond the information itself, is because they serve an important function in vetting the information for its acceptance and reliability." I fully agree with you. RSs are the cornerstone of the integrity and reliability of WP, such as it has. However, the reality is that 25% (or whatever) of WP consists of old articles that have no RSs at all. You can ignore them, but they're there. They are tolerated because deleting them would empoverish WP. Full enforcement of your statement would ruin WP. And, besides that, allowing better and more intuitive explanations in articles (my primary example) would clearly improve WP.
- Martinvl, I appreciate your proposal, which weakens mine so that it only applies to certain articles. I reject that. My proposal should apply to all articles, allowing people who know to contribute what they know, even when RSs cannot easily be found.
- Zero, I agree that WP should not be used to present major new research or new ideas. Yet I want to protect probably-true information and useful explanations. I believe I have done so using language that respects the importance of the NOR policy. If you can offer "suitable wording" to clarify this distinction, I would undoubtedly accept it.
- Bbb23, Please explain why a proposed change in three policies should not be presented on their Talk pages, or on the Talk page for all the policies and guidelines, for that matter. It's not obvious to me. WT pages are for discussion of WP articles. I felt that Village Pump would not be the place for this discussion, but I'm willing to move it there if others agree with you.
- TransporterMan, WP has a very different strategy from Citizendium. WP's strategy is more successful. The difference is that WP gives up some authority and reliability in return for allowing anyone to edit its articles. WP believes almost everyone has something valuable to contribute. As a result, our older articles are sometimes entirely lacking in references. We have so many articles that peer-review is haphazard, and many articles "fall through the cracks" year after year, remaining without RSs. As WP editors we accept our strategy and the policies that govern it. But many editors see flaws in those policies. One flaw is that one cannot always find a RS for a good and true statement that one would like to add to an article. My example was an attempt to illustrate this. I'm not asking WP to move in the direction of Citizendium. Their policies have not proven the right ones for growth, only the right ones for providing good information (and maybe not even that, I don't know).
- WhatamIdoing, "We do have a small but dedicated number of editors who apparently believe that if it's not what the rest of us call plagiarism, then it's a NOR violation. I assume that this proposal is born out of long experience with such editors." Well, er, no. I did not have that in mind. However, that looks like another area that would benefit from my proposed modification of policies. Of course, you're employing hyperbole here--plagiarism is forbidden by WP policy.
- Andrew Lancaster, I don't understand your points. You seem to be supporting the proposal.
- Martinvl, I'm not following your response to Andrew. I don't see how this relates to the proposal.
- DonIago, Your arguments make sense only when a RS can be found. But my proposal deals with the many situations in which a RS cannot be found, such as in the example I gave.
- Monty845, "I just don't see a way for the idea to work in practice." Fine, but you don't seem to be exploring the proposal, but instead the application of BURDEN. I'm not seeing why you find the proposal impractical.
- North8000, Your first suggestion is intruiging. I'd like to see more about it. Your second appears to be incorrect. Any statement in an article can be removed when it has no RS or even inadquate RS. Please point me to policy if I'm wrong. I don't see any real objection to my proposal, though.
- LeadSongDog, "WP cannot have a mechanism that could make this work without abandoning the principle of 'anyone can edit', without which WP would die a slow and painful death." My proposal allows anyone with certain knowledge to add it to WP without having the bad experience of seeing it instantly be deleted before they can even add RSs. This supports the principle of anyone can edit in a very direct way. You must provide proof if you seriously wish to claim that my proposal will make WP "die a slow and painful death." That is a sweeping and dramatic claim, one which even other opponents of my proposal have not made so far in this discussion.
- J. Johnson (JJ), I have deliberately not brought in the need to evidence the expertise of an editor. Sometimes an editor will know a lot (which they can contribute to make WP better), sometimes an editor will know little or nothing about the article. In the spirit of WP's strategy of allowing edits to converge to something good, I worded the proposal so that editing and editor discussion would resolve most issues, as it does under the current policies. My proposal does not require anyone to be an expert in some academic way, just to have some information that they wish to contribute to the article. If it is false, other editors will remove it right away. If it is true, other editors will respect that, and allow it to stand. But my proposed policy explicitly allows such contributions to stand even though they have no references yet. It is a way to allow anyone to contribute what they know, and at the same time conserve the 25% (or whatever) of existing unsourced information in WP.
David Spector (talk) 17:16, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- While your response improves my understanding of your proposal, I still feel it ultimately makes it more difficult for editors to remove unsourced information that does not belong here without sourcing. It's my experience that a desire/willingness to remove unsourced information is already not something found in great abundance among editors here (indeed, I've been commended on occasion for my willingness to get in the trenches to defend the removal of unsourced material...which I don't think should have needed to happen in the first place), and I believe there are sufficient protections governing the removal of such material. I don't feel we need more pressure placed on editors to leave added material alone. Bluntly - We have WP:BURDEN for a reason, and if an editor objects to material being removed then they should be able to satisfy said policy and consequently reinsert their material. If they can't, or worse won't satisfy said policy, then I don't believe the material should be published here. DonIago (talk) 18:10, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
- David we agree that "RSs are the cornerstone of the integrity and reliability of WP, such as it has". But you've missed my point because you've misdiagnosed the full reason why that '25% or whatever,' unsourced exists. Sourcing can be hard and requires work. Policy should continue to encourage that which we all would rather not do but need to for integrity and reliability -- more work. The rather-not-do impulse does not need reenforcement; it does well enough on its own. The insistence on sources also has important systemic benefits for collaboration in this anyone can edit model. It encourages discussion about content not persons, and increases trust and communication in the know what we're all talking about vein -- sources literally serve as the common point of reference (internally, as well as externally). Alanscottwalker (talk) 23:34, 23 August 2013 (UTC)
Thank you, all. Again, I did not see any insurmountable objections to my proposal. Here are my responses to these new responses. Interspersing them would interfere with their flow, so I've grouped them all here. Please feel free to continue the discussion here. David Spector (talk) 19:39, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- DonIago, "I still feel it ultimately makes it more difficult for editors to remove unsourced information that does not belong here without sourcing." Henry, the idea that unsourced information does not belong here is part of the current policy, not my proposal. My proposal is orthogonal to the question of providing references to sources. My proposal allows uncontroversial unsourced information until such time as RSs can be found. The great benefit of removing unsourced information is that, especially in the early days of WP or of most editors, there was a tendency to add incorrect information (for example, information that was remembered incorrectly). I do not oppose eliminating incorrect information. My proposal may add incorrect information, but it will also add correct information, benefiting WP by encouraging editors to add what they know to be correct. They will sometimes also make mistakes. My proposal does not prevent mistakes, but it does allow correct information to be added and does encourage editors to contribute to WP. "I don't feel we need more pressure placed on editors to leave added material alone." I'm not clear on how my proposal increases pressure on editors. It merely allows situations where RSs have not yet been found to stand instead of be deleted. We have entirely too much deletion on WP--frequently good information is deleted just as quickly as bad. BURDEN states, "Any material lacking a reliable source directly supporting it may be removed." My policy modifies this; it preserves useful material until RSs can be found. To the extent that we trust editors to grow and to do a good job, this will improve the quality of articles. Editors will be encouraged to contribute information they know to be true. Not guess, but know for sure. Maybe this should be added to the proposal. But, while RS and BURDEN certainly improve WP in the absence of true experts, my proposal would further improve WP. (Encyclopedia Brittanica is an example of an encyclopedia whose philosophy is to collate the contributions of recognized experts. WP has a different philosophy.) "Bluntly - We have WP:BURDEN for a reason, and if an editor objects to material being removed then they should be able to satisfy said policy and consequently reinsert their material." Blunt or not, this is simply a statement of current policy. Do you believe that current policy has evolved to the point that it cannot be improved? "If they can't, or worse won't satisfy said policy, then I don't believe the material should be published here." Okay, so it seems that your arguments pivot on this final statement, which is simply a belief in the current policy. Belief is not a good enough rationale. Yes, I agree that the current policies are excellent; the quality of many WP articles, developed through the work of dozens of "non-expert" editors, is excellent. But pay attention, too, to the many articles that have no references at all. Pay attention to the editors who leave WP because they find it difficult to face continual arguments over policy. And pay attention to the many new editors who leave after editing just one or a few articles, either because they were criticized by other editors who know the policies inside and out, or because they found it difficult to spend so much time on research when they actually know the few pieces of information they contributed.
- Alanscottwalker, You make a good point: "Sourcing can be hard and requires work. Policy should continue to encourage that which we all would rather not do but need to for integrity and reliability -- more work." My proposal is not meant to eliminate the need for sourcing. I wouldn't want to open floodgates of adding garbage that then could never be removed. The proposal would merely make WP more lively, providing a way for editors who have good knowledge to contribute it. If even one editor, reading a new addition, sees that it is garbage, they can give a concrete objection to it and later delete it for lack of RS. The point is that at WP we trust "ordinary folks" to edit. We don't assume that they are idiots who can only contribute garbage. We welcome them, and my policy encourages this. Besides, there are many cases where RSs either haven't been found (older articles), or where RSs are difficult or impossible to find (my example of explaining how it is possible to sail faster than the wind). It is in these cases where my proposal really helps. It doesn't avoid work, but it does allow spreading it out instead of insisting that anyone can remove material lacking a RS. Finally, as to avoiding work, all editors should be encouraged to add references to older articles that have none. It may not be glamorous, but it can be fun, and satisfying to confirm correct information.
David Spector (talk) 19:39, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- "My proposal allows uncontroversial unsourced information until such time as RSs can be found."
- And this is why I'm opposed to your proposal; you're prohibiting the removal of information indefinitely, even if it is unsourced. As I stated previously, my feeling is that if the information has been challenged then it is no longer uncontroversial.
- "in the early days of WP or of most editors, there was a tendency to add incorrect information"
- Some editors might argue that this is an ongoing tendency.
- " I do not oppose eliminating incorrect information."
- But your policy would make it more difficult to remove such information because an editor could claim they had the right to retain it until an RS is located. Or are you saying it should be incumbent on the challenging editor to prove that the information is untrue? If so, how would they do that?
- "My proposal may add incorrect information, but it will also add correct information, benefiting WP by encouraging editors to add what they know to be correct."
- I don't believe we need to make it easier for editors to add correct information, especially if it means they're adding information that may be correct but also is unverifiable.
- " My proposal does not prevent mistakes, but it does allow correct information to be added and does encourage editors to contribute to WP"
- I'm not aware of issues preventing editors to contribute to WP. IMO the requirement that information be sourced or face potential deletion is not a significant challenge to contributing.
- " I'm not clear on how my proposal increases pressure on editors. It merely allows situations where RSs have not yet been found to stand instead of be deleted."
- Which increases pressure on editors to let information stand instead of deleting it, because an editor who takes issue with the deletion can obstruct the process by claiming they need an indefinite amount of time to locate sources. I've already played the "Just give me another week to locate a source" game, and it doesn't work. Either the editor doesn't provide a source, or I move on to other things and the unsourced and potentially erroneous information remains. Where's the harm in saying, "Please re-add this information when you can provide a source"?
- "We have entirely too much deletion on WP--frequently good information is deleted just as quickly as bad."
- I don't believe that unsourced information should be called "good" information. It should be called "information that should be sourced". As for your opinion that there's too much deletion on WP - that's your opinion, and I haven't seen anything to support it.
- " My policy modifies this; it preserves useful material until RSs can be found."
- At what point are we allowed to conclude that they can't be found?
- "Editors will be encouraged to contribute information they know to be true. Not guess, but know for sure. "
- How are we supposed to know whether an editor knows information is true, is guessing that it's true, or is deliberately adding incorrect information knowing they'll later be able to claim they just need time to locate a reliable source?
- "Do you believe that current policy has evolved to the point that it cannot be improved?"
- There may be room for improvement within the current policy; I simply don't see how your proposal improves the current policy; rather I see it as weakening current policy.
- "Pay attention to the editors who leave WP because they find it difficult to face continual arguments over policy."
- In my experience most arguments over this particular policy could be averted if the editor desiring to include information would spend more energy locating a source than arguing for the inclusion of unsourced material. Also I'd like evidence that this is why editors are leaving...have you conducted exit interviews, or is this a guess on your part?
- "And pay attention to the many new editors who leave after editing just one or a few articles, either because they were criticized by other editors who know the policies inside and out, or because they found it difficult to spend so much time on research when they actually know the few pieces of information they contributed."
- It's my opinion that contributing to WP shouldn't just be about adding what you know to be true; it should be about what you know to be true and can provide a reference for such that other readers can determine from whence your information originated.
- In short, I don't doubt that you're passionate about this, but I don't see how your proposal ultimately does anything to improve the project. As near as I can determine, at best it restates information that is already true ("Editors can add unsourced information") while at worst it undermines verifiability and gives obstructionist editors the defense of "I know my information is true and I promise to add a source...sometime."
- If you opt to respond I would appreciate it if you did so directly after my comment to make it easier to follow the conversation, rather than your current technique,which makees the flow of conversation less clear. Thank you.
- Who's Henry? DonIago (talk) 20:36, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
- Oppose. (I voted likewise at WT:RS.) The problems are probably fatal but it's worth considering whether they can be solved.
- In answer mainly to editor David Spector at WT:RS (the editor suggested replying here) and at this topic/section:
- I agree that experts usually agree on a given statement in a field in which they're expert. But most of those statements would be sourceable. When they're not, disagreement becomes likelier, because being in print or on the Web attracts scrutiny about the certainty of the statement, so that the lack of print or bytes reduces scrutiny and lessens weight for certainty. While knowledge development tends to reinforce the core of a given body of knowledge, because the development of new edges challenges the core so that if a challenge fails the core is reinforced (e.g., perhaps gravity does not exist but the known data is so vast it's likely to overwhelm any attempt to come up with a contradictory explanation that accounts for all the known data), if a core statement is not sourceable then developers at the edges are less likely to know of the core statement and therefore may not either agree or disagree with it, thus may not either reinforce or discredit it.
- Active bodies of knowledge that are neither very recent nor very old are more likely sourceable; inactive bodies of knowledge (like on how to repair a Macintosh 128K) are those that have not lately been much developed (as far as most of would know) and thus have not lately faced known challenges to their validity, so if they're not sourceable there's also probably less agreement among its experts as to a given statement.
- Any editor adding unsourceable content is presumably implicitly claiming to be an expert. (Exceptions include vandals and the mistaken (e.g., grammar correctors who inadvertently alter substantive information).) By claiming x is true without a source, one is presumably asking to be believed without citing an authority other than oneself, and that probably defines a claim of expertise.
- Regarding the statement by David Spector, "my proposal would rapidly have had no effect in this example , since experts differed. WP has no way to prevent erroneous information from being added, but its virtue is that such errors are rapidly eliminated, as soon as someone with better knowledge comes along." Yes, but that means either that a second expert's unsourced view could replace a first expert's unsourced view or that replacement would not be allowed unless sourced which would mean that the first view would stay although unsourced while a second expert searched in vain for a source. So we'd either have battling experts (and we don't have a system for designating or recognizing experts so we'd really be dealing with battling editors who may or may not be experts), a pretender to expertise getting in first who stymies any expert trying to clear a matter up but has no source, or a relative success (an expert able to stop editing by a nonexpert who came afterwards); two out of three of those results are especially undesirable.
- My other examples that may not have been clear have these properties: On string theory and the disagreement with it, on an unsourced disagreement, whether a string theorist or a nonstring theorist should be the editor permitted to add unsourced content is the question; both can't be that editor. Between archaeology and Egyptology as separate disciplines, each could be the dissenter from the other, so that a point of disagreement regarding archaeology in Egypt can't be resolved be turning to the mainstream, since there are two mainstreams; the same is true of political scientists and sociologists (I think sociologists) with respect to mass movements; the same is true of scholars debating who discovered America, with even more mainstreams. The theological case had that property and also the property of applicability to a great many nontheological articles in Misplaced Pages, which risks that battles between experts would not occur as often but mainly because the second experts would probably not know that a first expert had posted somewhere that was secular (e.g., on voting) and so probably wouldn't edit or counter-edit there.
- I may have misunderstood in thinking that your proposal was for experts in particular (not just any editors) to gain a degree of preservation of their unsourced edits. If it is for nonexperts too and therefore anyone to edit so that other editors should assume that any unsourced edit is the product of expertise, making reverting harder, that amounts to weakening the RS and NOR requirements without, in my opinion, enough compensating gain. I have a thought about when a baseball batter has to decide whether to swing relative to a pitch's start but I have no source and I'm not a sports expert; if I add it to Misplaced Pages my view might be read by thousands of readers because no one could delete it without first gaining consensus that my view is controversial or finding a contrary source, if there is one. Maybe I should post it at a baseball discussion forum where reliable baseball experts could weigh in or possibly unreliable commenters could refer me to a reliable source one way or the other, since most readers of Misplaced Pages are not expert in the subjects they're reading about. Misplaced Pages is heavily used by nonexperts, most of whom don't edit it at all (I tried to persuade a public librarian who found an error and had a source to edit WP herself but she wasn't willing). I frequently edit unsourced edits on the basis of my sourceable expertise; if I had to bring all of them to the talk page to gain consensus instead of being bold I'd probably soon give up for most of them, as would most editors for reasons of time and productivity, and the result would be lower editorial quality across WP (unless those with the initiative to edit first tend to be inherently more expert than those who correct them, which I doubt).
- What I was talking about regarding adding OR to other media is that OR should be submitted to subject-relevant websites or other subject-relevant media which have experts in the relevant subjects and that are RS and then, after the other media have vetted the OR, a WP editor should paraphrase from the other media into WP. It's not your proposal but it may be a solution to the problem you outline, a solution that preserves existing policies and avoids the problem of awaiting consensus before deleting wrong information because perhaps it was added on the basis of unsourceable expertise.
- When new non-BLP content is rapidly deleted for want of sourcing when sourcing could have been found, the solution now is to re-add the content but this time with sourcing.
- The plagiarism-vs.-NOR issue is not hyperbole, because it was describing what some editors call plagiarism and other editors don't when the latter editors demand what the former would call plagiarism because they don't trust the quality of the paraphrasing they see and so think they see OR. Arguments of that kind come up now and then.
- I was not concerned that you have a hidden agenda. Something like this is not much affected by hidden agendas.
- WP:BLP requires immediate deletion of contentious content. I don't know if you propose that that policy be changed, but changing it could expose the Wikimedia Foundation to legal risks.
- Wikiversity is not a site I know well. Wikiversity:Reliable sources, Wikiversity:Original research (a proposal), and Wikiversity:Adding content seem relevant. At first glance, I'm not sure that OR is allowed there.
- Crafting specific language is advantageous at some point in the discussion (and I think that's now because of already-open disagreements between you and some other editors about what your proposal actually is), posted in a way that lets it be updated before finalization as debaters raise issues you can resolve by fine-tuning the specific proposal. Crafting what a template would say is also helpful but it's not important to program one (unless you have a fancy one in mind and one could question whether it technically can be created, but what's been so far mentioned is not technologically fancy). Your proposal that if one of these cases of unsourceable expertise goes to arbitration the tradition of requiring RS and deleting OR would take over for the case is a simplifying approach; if this includes not just arbitration (a term normally used only for ArbCom proceedings) but any dispute resolution mechanism, your proposal essentially would end when an editor requested dispute resolution, but that means that consensus that an edit is controversial would be unnecessary because a single editor could seek dispute resolution. This would lead to more disputes at the dispute resolution level and less posting to article talk pages seeking consensus. If you want to preserve the tradition that dispute resolution only follow an attempt at talk page discussion, then you should craft language so that as a result each relevant dispute resolution forum requires (or continues to require) that a consensus have been arrived at on the article's talk page (assuming it's not a sham consensus) or that a failure to achieve consensus be invalidated.
- Nick Levinson (talk) 16:53, 30 August 2013 (UTC) (Edited generally: 17:14, 30 August 2013 (UTC))
DonIago and Nick Levinson, thank you for your many points. I thought of replying to them individually as I have been doing here so far (many of them have simple answers based on simply understanding the proposal with an open mind), but realized that at this point, with mostly Oppose votes, that my continued defense is not worthwhile. If I'm seeing value in the proposal, but no one else is, the probability is that I'm wrong and everyone else is right. I therefore yield to the vast majority and sincerely thank everyone for considering my ideas. I know that present policies are not quite good enough to encourage some with good personal knowledge to offer it, so maybe I'll be back here again someday with a better and less objectionable proposal. David Spector (talk) 21:50, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
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