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    Doncram

    Doncram is indefinitely topic-banned from any edits relating to the National Register of Historic Places and related areas, broadly construed, aside from the normal exceptions. Seraphimblade 17:00, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
    The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

    This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
    Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

    Request concerning Doncram

    User who is submitting this request for enforcement
    Orlady (talk) 02:51, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
    User against whom enforcement is requested
    Doncram (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
    Sanction or remedy to be enforced
    Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Doncram#General editor probation
    Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

    In the last 24 hours or so, Doncram has breached normal standards of behavior and decorum through personal attacks on multiple other editors, as well as edit warring over whether his new article creations are stubs or start-class. This behavior has caused real damage, including bot operator's decision not to continue work on a bot request related to the WikiProject's actions to solve the issue that was "remanded to the community" in Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Doncram#Stub content debate remanded to community:

    1. Contention at Talk:Eads School Gymnasium over article rating.
    2. Revert war over that rating (Doncram violates 3RR, but he wasn't warned): Coaltownguy, Doncram, Coaltownguy, Doncram, TheCatalyst31, Wizardman, Doncram, Wizardman, Doncram
    3. - In this NRHP WikiProject talk page discussion of whether the Eads gymnasium article is a stub or a start, Doncram lashes out with personal attacks against Orlady (moi) and User:Dudemanfellabra, and apparently accuses User:Coal town guy of being my clone (in "don't egg on another clone like you did egg on S. and also egg on P., imho"). Both Coal town guy and User:Wizardman announce their intention to stay away from the Wikiproject.
    4. 16 September 2013 - Doncram entered discussion (where he had not been previously involved} at User_talk:TonyTheTiger regarding Tony's accusations of racism against other editors, and gave Tony the potentially fan-flaming advice that "it seems reasonable ... to begin to assume something awful like racial discrimination going on." Also said User:Crisco 1492 should "back the hell off".
    5. Withdrawal of User:Hasteur from plan to run an "NRIS-only" bot to flag minimally sourced stubs for the NRHP Wikiproject, apparently responding to the displays at Eads Gymnasium and the Wikiproject talkpage.
    6. Doncram warns another user against Orlady in the same style he employed in numerous similar personal attacks prior to the Arbcom case.
    Diffs of notifications or of prior warnings against the conduct objected to (not required in this instance)
    1. Several admonishments by various users are included on the pages linked above. Also see
    Additional comments by editor filing complaint

    I didn't want to come here. I was looking around to find someone Doncram respects who is currently active here to ask them to give him some "word to the wise" advice when I saw the evidence of the damage his recent behavior has done to the NRHP Wikiproject. After seeing that, I concluded that this behavior warrants a more vigorous response than mere advice. -- Orlady (talk) 02:51, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

    I am disappointed by Doncram's initial statement (which I acknowledge is likely to be revised or supplemented). The warring over whether an article is a stub or a start-class, together with Doncram's unilateral effort to prevent the wikiproject from having assessment criteria or tagging articles with sourcing issues, has been disruptive and is a concern. However, that pettiness is hardly the only issue here.

    Doncram's persistence in personalizing content discussions -- a pattern I've seen for more than 5 years -- is poisonous. The personal attacks -- the assertions that other users have "weird" or racist motivations, the allegations that other users are "egging on other editors" for the purpose of "construct contention" or "harass" Doncram -- are unacceptable and need to stop. His statement here and his recent actions on talk pages suggest to me that he not only doesn't recognize that his "when faced with adversity, assume bad faith" attitude is a problem, but that he thinks it's absolutely the right filter for interpreting other users' behavior. --Orlady (talk) 16:52, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

    @The Devil's Advocate: I'm not aware of any restriction against my participating in RM discussions that were highlighted on a noticeboard that I have watchlisted, such as Freemasonry or in visiting (and fixing problems I see) at articles identified in an active Wikiproject discussion like this one. And after some other very recent discussions on article ratings with Coal town guy ( ), it didn't even occur to me that his query on the NRHP talk page might be related to an article by Doncram. --Orlady (talk) 01:16, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

    Note: User:Orlady and User:The Devil's Advocate have had little or no interaction outside of this Arbcom case. The only other identifiable interaction was at Template:Did you know nominations/The Hole (Scientology) on 21 February 2013. --Orlady (talk) 16:05, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

    I'm sorry to see that Doncram has not come back to edit his statement here. This may mean that he decided that he needed a break from Misplaced Pages to clear his head. However, if that's what he's doing, it probably would be in his interest to explain himself here. --Orlady (talk) 15:35, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

    Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested


    Discussion concerning Doncram

    Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
    Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

    Statement by Doncram

    I have been notified and will respond later. However real life obligations intervene, with deadlines that I must meet through Thursday, and I cannot respond fully for a few days. I don't think there is anything extremely urgent that must be addressed here, and I won't be editing elsewhere.

    Extremely briefly, though: it seems inappropriate for editors from one wikiproject, who are in the process of redefining what a Start rating means for their wikiproject, to change other Wikiproject's ratings, and I think especially not to change a named AFC editor's rating. I opened discussion about this at a Talk page and discussed this clearly, and I reverted changes of the AFC editor's AFC rating, but did not revert the NRHP wikiproject rating. Hasteur noted, I think directed at CTG changing the rating: " Please for the love of DIETY do not edit war over the evaluation that a member of the AfC project gave to a page. If you disagree with the rating given on behalf of your project, feel free to change it, but each project has it's own rubric over what constitutes the various classes." For my objecting to an editor changing the AFC editor's rating (which seems like editing the AFC editor's Talk page comments to say something different than what the AFC editor said), an Arbitration Enforcement?

    Briefly about User:TonyTheTiger, contrary to Orlady and Crisco 1492's statements, I have previously advised/commented to TTT in the FourAward discussion (i believe at TTT's Talk and at one or more ANIs and at wt:fouraward). And I absolutely do not and did not condone accusations of racism. The assertions regarding that, here are out of context and misleading. I can comment more about that later, if necessary, but it seems unfortunate to drag TTT and Crisco and others into the NRHP topic area, it really seems unrelated.

    About other issues raised I will comment later. --doncram 06:53, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

    Thanks for not closing this too quickly. The main threat in discussion below is to ban me from editing in NRHP areas (which I would be extremely sad to see, and believe is not at all justified). I am busy in real life and there is not urgency to close this, as I am not editing in mainspace and will return to comment more.
    I do resent editor Orlady's persistent pressure over many years, including this AE proceeding and a recent ANI proceeding. I do personally experience Orlady's following me to mainspace pages and commenting directly after me at wt:NRHP and elsewhere, and these AN noticeboard as bullying / wikihounding / wiki-harassment / harassment -- define it as you wish. TheDevilsAdvocate's comments are on point. I thought Orlady recognized, during the Arbitration, that I really do experience her following me in this way. And she was advised not to by a couple of editors during the Arbitration, and she did not for a while, but she has resumed. I really cannot understand a person persisting with something they know is personally directed and experienced as hurtful. Orlady knows that I would regret being banned from NRHP, where I have been a fundamental builder of supporting structures (lists, help/info pages, disambiguation) and direct contributor of thousands of good references to NRHP documents and other sources in mainspace articles. I think there is broader issue of what Misplaced Pages stands for, does it stand for protecting productive contributors or does it stand more for allowing an infinite amount of long-running harassment type activities against them. I perceive Orlady as biased, clearly, in having interest to prove that her following and criticism is justified. And I think she is reaching, again, here, with kicking up confusion and manufacturing contention that tends to suggest to others that "something must be done" against her target, justifying her targeting. Is there no limit? What does it take to get someone to stop. Why not, at some point upon request by a person experiencing another as a harasser, cannot some other mechanism -- some other designated party be appointed, or just something. This is a flaw in Misplaced Pages, that there is no mechanism to stop infinite, deep incivility / vendetta-type behavior, if that behavior is just a bit disguised and couched differently. Upon request, why allow the pattern to continue?
    Here, Orlady raises as an issue disagreement at a Talk page (about whether non-AFC editors should change AFC editor ratings), as contention. It is highly appropriate to discuss disagreement at a Talk page. It happens that I restored the AFC editor's AFC rating (and not the WikiProject NRHP rating), a total of 4 times, reverting editor CTG twice and a new-to-the-subject-area-editor twice. But it was discussed at the Talk page and also at wt:NRHP, and the new-to-subject editor had stated at wt:NRHP that they would not edit further there, i.e. would not disagree with the restoration of the AFC rating for the AFC wikiproject. This is not any regular form of edit-warring; my last change was implementing what was in effect a consensus. It is a stretch to call this a case of edit-warring needing ban from a vast subject area; it is not part of any pattern at all.
    I can return and provide diffs, if you cannot follow this. Sorry, I can't participate in wiki-litigation to an infinite extent. I see no urgency in proceeding with a ban; I see no real justification except possibly for a lack of complete response by me with diffs and legal-like discussion in this forum (again, to which I resent being dragged). --doncram 17:25, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

    Statement by Hasteur

    I have elected to withdraw from the NRHP project for a multitude of reasons, but in specific the Toxic and disruptive environment presented against Doncram (with specific notice to the last 24 hours of content) is the straw to break the camel's back. Early on in the BotReq phase of the request for the NRIS-only tagging, Doncram attempted to insert such complications that would make it nearly impossible for a repeated and mundane process to be able to accomplish the stated goal (Misplaced Pages:Bot requests/Archive 56#Bot to tag articles only sourced to National Register Information System). Once the process moved forward into the BRFA thread Doncram tried to load the process down with additional tasks that would again make the bot's task impossible without adding a great amount of complexity and subsequently making it a loosing proposition for any Bot Operator to take up the task. As there were veiled threats of bulk undoing and contestations of consensus, I only considered it right to remove the rapidty from the equation. At this point, any editor could re-construct the list for calculating the matching articles without using a bot account to edit. I have attempted to give Doncram the benefit of the doubt by viewing pages that he has submitted for creation as neutrally as possible. In some cases this means approval and movement into mainspace (such as Kilauea Plantation). In others this means declining the pseudo-AfC and attempting to get more. I've watched various projects and associations of editors clash with Doncram with the percieved result of Doncram continues much in the same way whereas the other side becomes demoarlized and conceeds the point in face of the mass changes that Doncram leads in the consensus of 1. Hasteur (talk) 03:30, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

    I've been asked to clarify my meanings, which is reasonable given my editing after I had start to head to bed.
    "Toxic and disruptive environment presented against Doncram" - this phrase is attempting to indicate that Doncram's actions have created a Toxic and disruptive environment.
    I reserve the right to further clarify. Hasteur (talk) 12:58, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
    @Sanderson: I agree that the topic ban ideas may be appropriate, but I note that Doncram has already been warned and reminded without (what I would consider) significant improvement. For this reason I consider that a wiki-holiday length break will only defer the disruption instead of prevent it.Hasteur (talk) 19:19, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

    Statement by TheCatalyst31

    After the Arbcom case closed, I reviewed a lot of Doncram's articles and tried to improve his contributions. It seemed to be going well at first, but over the past few months he's been making all kinds of problematic edits. There was this borderline vandalism edit back in June. There was this insinuation that I "would have to be incredibly bizarre" to question his work after I pointed out that he didn't appear to have read a document he cited. There was this post, which simultaneously attacked writers of long articles and "some weirdly anti-NRHP people", which seems to be directed at Orlady. There's the overrating of his own articles, which started back in August and has been going on since. There's an edit that appears to imply that editors he doesn't like would have to worry about being punched in the face at a meetup. There's the "some dumb Queen Anne style house in a remote rural area" comment, which was another attack on writers of longer articles and upset Coal town guy, who's from a rural area. And now there's his latest attack on Orlady and Coal town guy, which has driven three editors away from WikiProject NRHP and is exactly the kind of behavior he was warned against. This kind of behavior has been causing all kinds of trouble for WikiProject NRHP, and something needs to be done to get it to stop (and based on past experience, admonishment isn't going to work). TheCatalyst31 04:36, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

    Regarding Sandstein's question, I'd be satisfied with an escalating series of topic bans along the lines of what Smallbones is proposing, provided it's enforced properly. Doncram's unwillingness to listen or follow consensus and his continual arguing over certain matters tend to be the root of these problems, and if he can't cooperate with other NRHP editors he shouldn't be allowed to work on NRHP-related topics. Enforcement is key, though; if Doncram continues to make occasional disruptive comments for a month until someone decides to do something, this probably won't help much. TheCatalyst31 18:28, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

    Statement by Crisco 1492

    TonyTheTiger and I, as is plastered throughout much of the WP namespace, have been having a falling-out since June/July. Doncram, to the best of my knowledge, has not been previously involved in any of the discussions regarding this, be it one of three on ANI (links later if required) or at WT:FOUR. As such, I find it concerning that his initial reaction was (to paraphrase) "Yeah, Tony, someone might be out to get you". Regarding Doncram's comment there, I found it to be implying (very obliquely) that I may have racist tendencies, at least where TTT is concerned, as he writes "weird (possibly discriminatory) opposition in stuff going on (which i personally ascribed a lot to editor crisco"), suggesting that "discriminatory" opposition is being caused by me. I fail to see why Doncram has decided to insert him/herself here, and fail to see why Doncram finds it necessary to bring me back to a discussion which I had already left for two days. As for the use of the word "hell", I don't find it that troubling, nor threatening, though I appreciate that some editors may. If Doncram's actions are indeed against probationary sanctions which have previously been enacted, then enforcement should be undertaken. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 05:34, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

    @Doncram: Hence why I said "to the best of my knowledge". I have stricken my interpretation of your comment, but please understand that was my first reading based on the collocation of my name and "possibly discriminatory". — Crisco 1492 (talk) 00:27, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
    @Cailil: My post was entirely focused on Doncram. The mention of TTT was simply to provide some context for Doncram's remarks. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 00:26, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

    Statement by Choess

    In light of the history between Orlady and Doncram, I feel I should point out that I independently came to the same conclusion regarding that advisability of sanctions. I think the diffs above largely speak for themselves. This is the culmination of five years or so of tension, wherein Doncram has created an enormous volume of very short articles on NRHP-listed properties and resisted the increasingly forceful efforts of other editors on the topic to make him improve his articles or to clean them up in an organized fashion. Because of this history of acrimony, Doncram now attributes criticism of his methods to the machinations of a few particular editors, which has seriously disrupted collaboration at WP:NRHP. Choess (talk) 06:16, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

    Well, so far Doncram's reponse seems to have been this edit, removing what seems to be a sound paraphrase to replace it with his cut-and-paste quotes from the NRHP nomination statement. I understand that he's personally uncomfortable with synthesizing multiple sources and paraphrasing, and that he's gotten more grief than other editors would because of that writing style. But preventing others from improving the articles he creates, and his unwillingness to discuss his methods or compromise, are a real problem. At this point, I think a topic ban from NRHP material is the most reasonable solution. Choess (talk) 06:34, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

    Statement by TonyTheTiger

    I interact with Doncram for advice on National Register of Historic Places articles and help him out with photo needs as I am able. Recently Doncram has interacted with me in an attempt to stabilize WP:FOUR when it first got rocky about two months ago. He has helped keep me level-headed in regards to a turbulent situation. In general I find him to be quite productive. I briefly looked at some of the edits above. I side with the stub viewpoint in the stub/start war above. Personally, I find a start/stub ratings disagreement not worth getting hung out to dry over. I would advise him to let ratings slide when he encounters vigorous opposition from multiple parties. In regards to his comments on my most recent blow up with Crisco, I found him to be supportive of my claims in a way that may have been offensive to my detractors. Nonetheless, I appreciate his empathy. I thinks it would be great if this tag team could ease up on Doncram and let him go on doing his fine work here on our national monuments and landmarks.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 06:39, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

    Statement by Smallbones

    I've been one of Doncram's few supporters at WP:NRHP, in general I agree with his aims, if not his style. The ongoing problem over several years has been that he just can't get along with other editors. I do see some ganging up on him and he is not always in the wrong, but he fails to go along with consensus, most of the time just arguing ad naseum I've proposed at WT:NRHP that he receive a one-week topic ban for this disruption, followed by a two-week topic ban if it happens again, with a doubling of the length of the topic ban each additional time he causes disruption. This should concentrate his mind on ways to avoid disruption, or give us some peace at WP:NRHP. The choice would be up to Doncram. Smallbones(smalltalk) 18:34, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

    Since Doncram has not responded, I think the admins should go ahead and decide on sanctions. From reading the current suggestions from admins, it looks like they are too strict or permanent for my taste. I suggest that something more creative (such as I suggest immediately above) would be better than the nuclear option. Perhaps just ban him from NRHP talk pages - he can continue to contribute via AfC - and if WP:NRHP finds fault with the articles via AfC, we can communicate with the AfC editors. That wouldn't be stretching the ArbCom decision, in that the project was left to decide what is an acceptable stub (for our purposes). In any case, it is time to decide. Smallbones(smalltalk) 02:36, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

    Statement by The Devil's Advocate

    Once more, I would like to reiterate that Orlady should stay away from Doncram. She was already strongly urged to do so by Errant after dragging Doncram to ANI because . . . wait for it . . . she thought his user talk page was too long. This was after she had taken the lead in going after Doncram for the start-stub dispute ( ). Despite Errant's admonishment she has continued stalking his contributions ( ) in addition to her usual role in fanning the flames of disputes with Doncram at the NRHP wikiproject. I know she claims that she did not know the Eads Gymnasium article was one of Doncram's contributions, but it seems unlikely that she did not at least suspect it since she had previously commented on an Eads church article that she presumably knew was contributed by Doncram as she had looked at the revision history.

    Unfortunately, it is very hard to deal with this situation because any sanctions would have to come through some other forum as there is no authorization under the ArbCom case for resolving this persistent problem of Orlady's harassment. I will say, my impression is that stub-class is meant for articles that are one or two sentences long, not articles that are a good-sized paragraph long and certainly not any longer than that. Additionally, I think the proposal for a bot adding clean-up tags is absurd and seems pretty unusual. I don't know of any bots that perform such a pointless task and given the way some editors seek to denigrate Doncram's contributions it does not surprise me that he would take personal offense. Orlady's involvement in fanning the flames is just making it all the more difficult for him to keep cool.--The Devil's Advocate tlk. cntrb. 21:51, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

    Orlady, you can give all the excuses and evasive arguments you like, but the reality is that you regularly put yourself at the forefront of any complaint against Doncram no matter how frivolous, such as that nonsense over his user talk page. Your very participation at the NRHP project is motivated by your vendetta against Doncram. Oh and exactly when did you watchlist the Freemasonry Wikiproject? Did it happen to be around the time you were feuding with Doncram over his contributions in that topic area? Looking over your contributions it seems you never touched that project or the topic area until Doncram became prominently involved in it back in 2010. Sorry, but noticing something concerning the target of your harassment on a page you watchlisted because the target of your harassment was involved there once does not magically make it not harassment. Many stalkers and harassers find ways to work their way into their target's everyday activities so they can provide an innocent cover for their actions.--The Devil's Advocate tlk. cntrb. 04:20, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

    @NW, my comment may be too blunt for you, especially since you were reluctant to take substantive action against anyone harassing Doncram, but it is no less truthful and is most certainly relevant. Orlady seems to think that Doncram coming across a page she has on a watchlist means she is not engaged in harassment by opposing him there, even if the page is only on her watchlist because Doncram had previously been there. Anyone who knows anything about harassment knows that harassment often involves following places a person has previously been in case they show up there again. Orlady is bringing this case here and citing comments about her as part of the basis for sanctions so her treatment of him is pertinent.--The Devil's Advocate tlk. cntrb. 20:00, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

    Unlike some on this site I do not use these terms lightly, NW. This is real-life. A real human being is on the other end of that screen name. It doesn't trivialize in-person stalking to suggest that the same behaviors can be exhibited online and have the same emotional consequences.--The Devil's Advocate tlk. cntrb. 20:50, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

    @Cailil, I believe barring Doncram from the NRHP area would be excessive and harmful to the project given that it is his primary contribution here. Were you to look over most of his articles you would see not even a hint of the problems his opponents have regularly cited against him. If your main concern is the dispute over classifications of articles then you can simply bar him from changing and adding such classifications himself.--The Devil's Advocate tlk. cntrb. 16:18, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

    Sandstein, my suggestion for barring Doncram from changing article classifications is much clearer and would be targeted rather than ham-fisted. As to your excessive suggestion to block me, I did not call Orlady a stalker or accuse her of stalking. I am accusing her of harassment. When I said "stalkers and harassers" I was including her in the latter group, not the former.--The Devil's Advocate tlk. cntrb. 22:11, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

    Statement by Acroterion

    The contention is an outgrowth of the effort by the NRHP project to implement Remedy #6 of the arbitration conclusion, in which the community was advised to set standards for stub creation. This has led to a focus on consistent standards for article rating, and scrutiny of newly created articles and their ratings. The emphasis of this effort is broader than simply deciding what constitutes a stub, it is intended as a focused article improvement and expansion effort, supported by bot tasks to gather information on minimally-sourced stubs. While on a small scale it's not important whether a given article is rated a stub or a start, and in my opinion not worth a single revert, much less an edit war, the larger effort is necessary and appropriate as Misplaced Pages matures. Arguments over a stub/start evaluation are characteristic of the minimalist approach adopted by Doncram. Doncram is capable of producing detailed, quality articles, but prefers a broad-brush approach that emphasizes quantity over quality, and he appears to view the quality improvement initiative and stub scrutiny as criticism of his effort, which to some degree it is, given that it's an result of the previous arbitration proceeding. If the small, and largely meaningless step from stub to start is so contentious, what about real improvement to B and beyond?

    Some of the problem is the result of AfC ratings that don't coincide with the goals of the NRHP project, and of course we can all find dozens of articles throughout the wiki that are rated as B when they're no better than starts. I'm fairly cynical about the accuracy of any individual rating, but the larger effort is important and the disruption to that effort is undermining a larger benefit to the encyclopedia.

    I've generally supported Doncram more than many participants in NRHP, but I find his attitude toward other editors and toward criticism, either explicit or implied, to be frustrating and divisive. I endorse Smallbones' proposed remedy as a way of allowing the work of the encyclopedia to proceed: no one editor should be able to disrupt basic article improvement initiatives or to affect what should be a dispassionate evaluation of articles and their state of development. Acroterion (talk) 15:28, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

    Statement by Cla68

    NuclearWarfare, instead of spending so much time criticizing DevilsAdvocate's statement, why don't you first work through if what he is saying is true? Is Orlady following Doncram around Misplaced Pages and trying to find reasons to get him banned or bait him into reacting to her? If so, are you going to do anything about it? Please look at the evidence before picking a side. Cla68 (talk) 22:25, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

    Statement by Nyttend

    Let me simply remind the AE admins that this project has long experienced serious strife, with the singular exception of a period running from late December 2011 until late June 2012. Few or no problems occur in discussions in which Doncram is uninvolved (see the WT:NRHP thread on "Cedar Point Light"; we don't all agree, but it's calm and peaceful), but his actions and his methods of interacting with other users generally produce the problems. Language such as "egging another editor on" (without evidence) and characterisation of other editors' statements as "indictments" that are "pretty hurtful, and pretty immature, and pretty short-sighted" has persisted since before the Arbcom case, as has his pattern of bothering other users to the point that they take down useful resources when he's used those resources in a way that produces strife. This was the kind of stuff that was supposed to be stopped by the case's restrictions. Nyttend (talk) 03:33, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

    Result concerning Doncram

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

    Waiting on Doncram's statement. Meanwhile, could the editors who ask for administrator action please recommend which action they deem appropriate, and why?  Sandstein  06:22, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

    @The Devil's Advocate: There's a line and you're crossing it with "Many stalkers and harassers find ways to work their way into their target's everyday activities so they can provide an innocent cover for their actions." NW (Talk) 16:14, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
    Yes. Let's talk about what stalking is. It is not Misplaced Pages:Stalking. That term has been deprecated since 2005 for good reason, because it seriously trivializes abuse that actual real life victims must face. NW (Talk) 20:17, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
    • I have to say that nobody is coming out of this looking good. Doncram's behaviour is in breach of the RFAR, and it does look like Orlady is following him. Then we have TTT and Crisco carrying on their dispute with each other here by proxy. Certainly the evidence is such that I suggest Doncram should be excluded from the NRHP area broadly construed for an indefinite period (and if the same argument re: classification of start or stub class articles begins elsewhere i would strongly advise him not to repeat this behaviour). Furthermore a two-way IBAN for Orlady and Doncram seems necessary. Certainly a one way IBAN can be issued to Doncram but we would need to go to WP:ARCA to see if the Committee would allow it to go two ways?
      However, I'd echo NW re: TDA's allegation of vendetta and stalking. There is a profound difference between cyberstalking and wikihounding. Using the term "stalking" for effect is not helpful in describing wikihounding and implies an element of criminal behaviour that is neither there nor appropriate to allege. There are legitimate concerns about Doncram's behavoiur (even expressed by those who agree with his points of argument) but I do think an IBAN would resolve many issues here--Cailil 13:58, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
    • I would support a suitably-tailored restriction that would keep Doncram from undoing a Wikiproject consensus. User:Cailil's view that Doncram should be excluded from the entire NRHP area is one way of doing that. I suggest hearing from more people before the exact form of any restriction is decided. Arbcom already made Findings of Fact in the case about Doncram engaging in 'uncollegial behavior' and 'repeatedly creating articles with placeholder text and stubs with insufficient context..' They also banned him from making new submissions directly in article space. Revert warring on the rating of his own submissions certainly fits the pattern of behavior that Arbcom found fault with. It's reasonable that AE admins could adopt measures that are sufficient to keep these problems from continuing. EdJohnston (talk) 16:21, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
    • I agree with Cailil that there is poor behavior all around.
    • Orlady: In Orlady's request, several points of evidence are not diffs of edits by Doncram, but edits by somebody else, and in most cases it remains obscure to me how even the edits by Doncram could constitute sanctionable misconduct. There are many broad allegations, but little hard evidence. I'm open to evidence that her conduct constitutes wikihounding, but I don't find such evidence here (in the form: he makes edit A, she immediately follows up with edit B), and also this case does not contain remedies concerning conduct by editors other than Doncram and somebody who hasn't appeared here.
    • Doncram: But the evidence of edit-warring by Doncram is clear, and this is sanctionable misconduct. A NRHP topic ban appears appropriate in reaction to it. I'm not a fan of overly elaborate restrictions like one that "would keep Doncram from undoing a Wikiproject consensus". Complicated restrictions are complicated to enforce. Also, that sounds like a content-based sanction, and we don't do content dispute resolution here.
    • The Devil's Advocate: As Nuclear Warfare said, it is egregious misbehavior by The Devil's Advocate to accuse Orlady of what sounds like real-life stalking: "Many stalkers and harassers find ways to work their way into their target's everyday activities so they can provide an innocent cover for their actions." These are unacceptable personal attacks and aspersions, and a block appears in order in reaction to them (under normal admin authority, because the remedy covers Doncram only).
    Essentially, this is, as depressingly usual on this page, just a bunch of people so tied up in their petty feuds that they lose all sense of scope and proportion. A round of bilateral interaction bans could help address this, but would not be covered by the remedy. Does anybody believe that an escalation to ArbCom to seek broader sanctions would help?  Sandstein  19:25, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
    • In fact a ban of Doncram from NRHP topics is the obvious choice; I just wanted to leave it open what the best restriction was going to be. When I reviewed WP:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Doncram I at first thought that Arbcom was deferring all the real decisions. But in fact, a read of the FOFs and the restrictions on Doncram gives a good feeling for their direction and intentions. It should be possible for the AE admins in September to enforce whatever thinking Arbcom had in March without an immediate return trip. Anyone who thinks that editors on the other side (such as Orlady) are likely to be restricted if the matter returns to the Committee won't be encouraged by reading the discusion of Orlady on the proposed decision page, including the comments left after each vote. EdJohnston (talk) 21:50, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
    • I'm inclined to agree that an indefinite topic ban on Doncram from NHRP related subjects, broadly construed, is going to be necessary here. I am, however, hesitant to find fault with Orlady. While her ANI filing about archiving the talk page was not the best judgment, there's already been a trout issued for that, and unless that can be shown to be a pattern, I'm not inclined to find such to be sanctionable (under normal admin authority, since the ArbCom decision authorized discretionary sanctions against only Doncram). It is generally not considered stalking to keep an eye on an editor's behavior when their edits have in fact been problematic, and I'd have to see more evidence of wrongdoing or ill intentions on Orlady's part beyond that to consider requesting sanctions from ArbCom. Seraphimblade 21:56, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
    User:Doncram has not edited Misplaced Pages since 21 September, and there is no response to a message I left on his talk, inviting him to expand on his statement (as he indicated he might do). Should we go ahead and close this and make whatever decision is appropriate? EdJohnston (talk) 12:56, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
    I was just commenting in an edit-in-progress that was swept into the now-hatted, closed discussion. I did not experience an edit conflict, but it was an ec-type simultaneous edit. To the closer and others, could you please consider that comment, and perhaps unhat for some further discussion. sincerely, --doncram 17:33, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
    Considering that the closer wrote that they did read and take into consideration your statement, I see no grounds for reopening this discussion. You will need to appeal the sanction if you wish to contest it further.  Sandstein  13:34, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

    Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Jiujitsuguy

    Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.

    To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).

    Appealing user
    Jiujitsuguy (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
    Sanction being appealed

    https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement&diff=503267313&oldid=503208820

    Administrator imposing the sanction
    T. Canens.
    Notification of that administrator

    notified

    Statement by Jiujitsuguy

    Per the advice and constructive criticism offered by Stifle and concurrence of Cailil I am resubmitting my appeal. In the break between my last appeal and the instant one, I have created articles and added content on a variety of subjects including archeology, orthopedics, military history and weapon systems. I have edited constructively, in a collegial, collaborative and non-confrontational manner. I understand now that my previous editing pattern was abrasive and tendentious. In addition, rather than seeking to reconcile differences with a colleague with whom I was having a dispute, I moved too quickly to AE, which was entirely inappropriate. AE should never be used as a tool to silence anyone and should be avoided when possible. I will try hard not to repeat the past mistakes that have led me to the instant topic ban, now in its 14th month.

    I also wish to offer my sincerest apologies to T. Canens for misconstruing his disciplinary actions and acting with haste in making groundless accusations against him. I blame my lack of maturity for the tasteless outburst and I am embarrassed by it.

    I sincerely hope that in light of my constructive editing, the fact that I've expressed contrition and recognize my mistakes, the fact that I’ve embraced the suggestions of the aforementioned syops rather than arguing with them, the fact that I’ve already been banned for a year and two months and the fact that I have zealously adhered to the provisions of the topic ban, that the ban be lifted. Whichever way you decide, I thank you for taking the time to consider my appeal and will of course respect your decision. I do however, hope that you will look favorably upon it. Thank you.

    • Stifle had suggested that I submit an appeal in 2 months after productive editing (I would be minded to consider a further appeal in no less than two months' time). I believed that Cailil offered concurrence. I did what I was told and followed the prescribed course of action. Sandstien was concerned that my previous appeal had not addressed the reasons for the ban and that I did not understand what I did wrong. This appeal does address the reason for the ban and expresses sincere contrition. Yes I had been T-banned before (and not 6 times as had been suggested) but this is the longest T-ban that I’ve been required to serve. I’ve shown evidence of reformation and productive editing, have expressed sincere contrition and acknowledged wrong-doing. The length of the instant ban and the fact that I’ve zealously adhered to the ban’s restrictions should also serve to militate in my favor. I hope you look favorably on this request. Thank you.
    • I Note further that both TDA and RolandR have commented under "uninvolved." That is a bit disingenuous as a brief review of their editing history will show that they are involved up to their necks and their motivations for excluding me should be regarded as suspect. RolandR's mention of the August 2010 ban is also disingenuous because he very well knows that the syop who imposed the sanction undid his action almost immediately following ArbCom involvement and that the ancient matter had been resolved in my favor. I also find it disconcerting that only TDA and RolandR are cited by some commenting syops but editors who expressed support for my position have been ignored. I think that, considering the current length of the T-ban, another year of a T-ban on top of the fourteen months already served, is draconian. You have my word that if you lift the T-ban and following that, I get out of line or revert to tendentiousness, you can ban me infinitely and I won't issue any protest. That's how sincere this request is and that's how confident I am in my belief that I will not engage in any editing that will result in a sanction.
    • As further evidence of the sincerity of my request, should the ban be lifted, I will take it upon myself to voluntarily refrain from editing the topic area for an additional three months and further, will will refrain from partaking in any AE action for a period of 1 year. The days of me locking horns and duking it out with fellow editors are over. I simply wish to edit peacefully and productively.
    @Cailil I can appreciate your concerns and that is why I proposed the above criteria as an additional safeguard. The request is sincere (some might say groveling) and I have imposed on myself self-constraints. Like I said, if I engage in any purposeful transgression, you can easily ban my ass into oblivion without protest.
    @Heimstern Läufer I am asking you to please not close this as declined. I am asking you to please consider my request as genuine and sincere. I am asking that in the event that you do decline to please allow me the opportunity to resubmit and considering the fact that the ban is already 14 months long, to please allow me to re-submit within 3 months commencing with August 19.

    Statement by Timotheus Canens

    Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Jiujitsuguy

    Statement by The Devil's Advocate

    Jiujitsuguy had appealed the topic ban just two months ago and has only made 113 edits in the past month and made no edits in the month immediately following his appeal. This second appeal seems hasty, especially given the reason for his topic ban from ARPBIA areas. I think this appeal should be declined. Perhaps AE admins should consider giving JJG some strict bounds determining when he can appeal again. Not just a time limit, but strict editing criteria so that he will not be able to appeal until he has truly demonstrated editing that makes a future appeal worthy of some consideration.--The Devil's Advocate tlk. cntrb. 20:19, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

    To be clear, I think the ARBPIA topic area is better served without JJG being able to edit there. I would not rule out the possibility that he could prove himself trustworthy regarding the topic, but a very high bar should be set for him. In the mere eight months I knew of JJG's participation in that topic he had tried to use a tour guide about a mountain ski resort to effectively claim the Golan Heights were Israeli territory, repeatedly added a Nazi flag to the Arab side of the belligerents section of the 1948 War because a handful of former Nazis participated in the conflict, and tried to get an opponent sanctioned for "misrepresenting sources" for attributing a statement to the citation following it when JJG was the one who actually put the statement before that citation in the first place. The levels of blatant bad faith he showed with regards to that topic area, while pushing an extremely obvious POV agenda, and his weak-willed efforts at proving his worth following the topic ban do nothing to inspire confidence.--The Devil's Advocate tlk. cntrb. 04:14, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

    Statement by EatsShootsAndLeaves

    100% in agreement with TDA's statement. Nothing in their actions show substantive changes which are required for appeals - mostly there's no changes because they've done nothing, and thus cannot prove anything ES&L 21:41, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

    Statement by AgadaUrbanit

    The ban is quite old, from July 2012. AE's aim is not to punish, but try to prevent further disruption. If editors follow guidance of administrators in good faith, the evidence is the constructive contributions, it is reasonable to assume that their ban to be lifted. I doubt that quantity is not sufficient, and clearly it is not a question of quantity, rather a question of quality. I reviewed JJG's latest contributions which beyond doubt improve this tree of knowledge we're growing here. Therefore I would not mind JJG's ban to be lifted. AgadaUrbanit (talk) 12:40, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

    Statement by Marokwitz

    Based on past activity, I believe that Jiujitsuguy can be a good and constructive editor. I believe his/her recent statements and edits are good evidence that the editor would conduct himself differently in the future. Therefore I recommend lifting the topic ban. The editor can always be topic banned again, if the need arises, so I see no risk in giving him another chance. Marokwitz (talk) 11:36, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

    Statement by RolandR

    Indeed, "the editor can always be topic banned again". As he has been several times already: indefinitely in August 2010, for three months in December 2010, six months in March 2011 extended for a further two months in July 2011, and indefinitely in both January 2012and July 2012. Therre seems very little evidence here of improvement or of learning from experience. RolandR (talk) 12:25, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

    Result of the appeal by Jiujitsuguy

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.
    • Hmm, this is definitely an improvement on the last appeal, as there's been some editing that appears, at a glance, to have been productive and unproblematic. A month of good editing is good, but it's still only a month. I'm not convinced that's enough of a pattern for a successful appeal just yet, particlularly in an area as conflict-rife as I-P. I do think it's on the right path now (unless I've missed something in Jiujitsuguy's editing), but I'm not convinced it's gone on long enough. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 05:24, 26 September 2013 (UTC)
    • I'm pretty much on the same wavelength as Heimstern about this. Jiujitsuguy you're on the right track you just need to keep going like this for a few more months. As Heimstern mentions the I/P area is conflict ridden and a month's progress is not enough for us to make a judgement call on. Again keep up the positive editing and appeal again.
      To other sysops: I think TDA's point about giving Jiujitsuguy a target for another appeal is a good call I'd suggest: no less than 3 months more consecutive editing - that would mean if he keeps making progress late December 2013. Does any one else have any views on this?--Cailil 12:20, 26 September 2013 (UTC)
      • Three months is reasonable if we want to set a specific recommended time frame. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 08:56, 27 September 2013 (UTC)
        • Though with the rather long history here, as pointed out by RolandR, I now think that's too short. I don't think I'd be ready to consider an appeal without at least six months under these conditions. Even longer would be better. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 01:07, 28 September 2013 (UTC)
          • With cognizance of the comments above and below I'd agree. 1 year of consecutive editing without problems. Giving that this ban is the consequence of 5 escalating bans, long term good behaviour would be needed to be evidenced for any sysop to reverse this ban.
            So I'd suggest declining with a minimum length of 1 year (from August) before appealing again--Cailil 20:03, 28 September 2013 (UTC)
            • @Jiujitsuguy: - I agreed with User:Stifle that your last appeal be declined and I also stated clearly that "indef bans can't be waited out".
              You need to adjust your thinking here - this is not a matter of "I've not broken the ban for 14 months ... therefore lift it", it's a case of showing sustained productive editing outside the I/P area. There were a sum total of 16 name space edits between September 21st 2012 and August 19th 2013. After that you made c. 110 name space edits. This (126) is insufficient evidence of someone with a long track record of second chances as having got the message. While once again I commend your recent editing, I will advise you that it's going to take more of this good behaviour to overturn this ban. Strictly speaking quantity of edits is not the only criteria, consistency, calmness and willingness to focus on other topics is good - but we can only see a major change in attitude within the context of a large number of edits over a long period of time--Cailil 12:23, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
    • I would agree with Heimstern and Cailil. This is definitely the right track, and I commend Jiujitsuguy for taking it, but it's just not quite long enough yet. JJG, if you keep this up for a few months and come back to appeal then to have the restrictions lifted, that appeal would stand a very good chance of being granted. Seraphimblade 19:39, 26 September 2013 (UTC)
    • RolandR points out that Jiujitsuguy has been topic-banned from this topic area no less than six times by five separate admins (including myself, apparently). That's ... impressive. On the basis of this history, I would decline the appeal and retain the topic ban infinitely. I'm all for second chances, but not so much for seventh chances.  Sandstein  13:30, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

    Richard Arthur Norton (1958- )

    Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) is blocked for two weeks.  Sandstein  12:23, 26 September 2013 (UTC)
    The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.


    Request concerning Richard Arthur Norton (1958- )

    User who is submitting this request for enforcement
    Fram (talk) 06:51, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
    User against whom enforcement is requested
    Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
    Sanction or remedy to be enforced
    Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Richard Arthur Norton (1958- )#Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) restricted from referencing external sites to which he has contributed
    Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it
    1. 31 August 2013 Richard Arthur Norton links to , where the file history makes it clear that he contributed that page there. The edit is nearly a month old, but I don't check these that regularly either...
    Additional comments by editor filing complaint

    It's only one violation, but considering that the editor hardly edits anymore, I still consider it significant enough to warrant attention. Whether that should be a stern final warning or a block is up to those reviewing this of course. Fram (talk) 06:51, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

    Note that this edit (from June, but still among his 100 most recent edits) may not violate the letter but at least the spirit of his restriction, adding a 76-word quote from a copyrighted source (a 1978 Chicago Tribune article), from a link to his own copyright-violating flickr site, instead of removing the link to his own copyright violation. The work that he should have done at the article has since been done by Nikkimaria. Fram (talk) 07:09, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

    Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

    Discussion concerning Richard Arthur Norton (1958- )

    Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
    Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

    Statement by Richard Arthur Norton (1958- )

    Statement by (username)

    Result concerning Richard Arthur Norton (1958- )

    This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

    The complaint has merit. The enforcement provision reads "That user may be blocked, initially for up to one month, and then with blocks increasing in duration to a maximum of one year; after the third block issued under this provision, subsequent blocks issued under this provision may be of any duration, including indefinite". A relatively steep escalation of enforcement block seems to have been envisioned, and this would be the first enforcement block. In enforcement of the restriction, Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) is therefore blocked for two weeks.  Sandstein  12:21, 26 September 2013 (UTC)


    Concur with Sandstein, but I also note Fram's point that this user's edits are sporadic. Maybe a warning within the block text that things will escalate is necessary?--Cailil 12:27, 26 September 2013 (UTC)