Misplaced Pages

:Requests for comment/Zer0faults - Misplaced Pages

Article snapshot taken from Wikipedia with creative commons attribution-sharealike license. Give it a read and then ask your questions in the chat. We can research this topic together.
< Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Ideogram (talk | contribs) at 14:14, 17 June 2006 (→Statement by Ideogram: stop it). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Revision as of 14:14, 17 June 2006 by Ideogram (talk | contribs) (→Statement by Ideogram: stop it)(diff) ← Previous revision | Latest revision (diff) | Newer revision → (diff)

In order to remain listed at Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment, at least two people need to show that they tried to resolve a dispute with this user and have failed. This must involve the same dispute with a single user, not different disputes or multiple users. The persons complaining must provide evidence of their efforts, and each of them must certify it by signing this page with ~~~~. If this does not happen within 48 hours of the creation of this dispute page (which was: 02:49, 9 June 2006 (UTC)), the page will be deleted. The current date and time is: 23:22, 26 December 2024 (UTC).

Users should only edit one summary or view, other than to endorse.

Statement of the dispute

This is a summary written by users who dispute this user's conduct. Users signing other sections ("Response" or "Outside views") should not edit the "Statement of the dispute" section.

  1. removes complaints from his talk page
  2. personally attacks other users
  3. ignores NPOV
  4. countless reverts, even corrected typos
  5. endless innuendo on talk pages

Description

{Add summary here, but you must use the section below to certify or endorse it. Users who edit or endorse this summary should not edit the other summaries, other than to endorse them.}

Evidence of disputed behavior

(Provide diffs. Links to entire articles aren't helpful unless the editor created the entire article. Edit histories also aren't helpful as they change as new edits are performed.)

removes complaints from his talk page
personally attacks me
  1. "removed trolling attacks"
  2. "Do not troll on my talk page or I will remove it, some admins feel you are being over zealous." (misrepresenting fact, just one user, no admin, words chosen by zer0faults himself)
  3. "Comments removed to prevent further trolling."
  4. "Removed more trolling comments"
  5. "Removed more trolling attacks."
countless reverts

WP:AN3#User:Zer0faults_reported_by_User:Mr._Tibbs_.28result:_stale.29

blocked once: User_talk:Zer0faults#3RR_violation
even corrected typos

again twice after warning:

ignores NPOV

"France, who was later found to have ben involved in the Oil for Food Scandal." again twice after warning:

endless innuendo on talk pages
  1. Talk:Operation Just Cause
  2. Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents
  3. Talk:Iraq War
  4. Talk:2003 Invasion of Iraq
  5. Template talk:War on Terrorism

Evidence presented by Mr. Tibbs

Zer0faults attempts to bait other users by being as insulting as possible, while still attempting to avoid WP:NPA. This malicious civility method Zero uses to manipulate the system is quite effective. Zero also sometimes uses this method to bully other editors or to wikilawyer things away. Below are some examples.

  • 19:03, 8 May 2006
    • - "If you cared to read the talk section you would see the concensus is filled with people who are presenting no facts. This is an encyclopedia, political bickering is not the goal. Even furthur, your problem with Rangeley does not warrant your rudeness toward me. Perhaps you should read the articles you attempt to use in your defense"
  • 19:59, 24 May 2006
    • - "Good luck I invite you to ask for a RfC after the vote since it doesnt even meet the guidelines of Misplaced Pages:Straw Polls in its creation. Also in case you keep forgetting, Straw Polls are not binding, they are a guideline not policy. If you feel you do not need to respond to me, then you failed here, and on the talk page. Also, well this is a message for Kevin Baas, so unless he is you? you aren't being addressed here. Good bye Mr Tibbs. I would make a sad face, but I dont think there are wikiemotes."
  • 15:17, 29 May 2006
    • - "Please do not place comments on my talk page. Your rude language in previous dealing show me you are not here in good faith. If you have something to discuss regarding an article, use the articles talk page. Unexplained reverts are frowned upon."
  • 16:45, 29 May 2006
    • - "Your comments have been noted. Trying to find a middleground is usually better then advocating someone just discard someone elses work. Today it seems me and Anoranza came to a middleground thanks to some discussion instead of constant revert war. Diplomacy usually wins over brute tactics, you should be more open to it."
  • 20:00, 30 May 2006
    • - "I am not really sure what led you to my talk page, however I would like to know how much of mine and Anoranza's dealings have you looked up? Since the comment I made toward that user, was directed at them, I did not need to cite examples, I was not filnig a complaint. The user who I was in direct talk with knows their prior dealings with me. I have previously told them that I will cease any direct talk with them and hence why I replied with simple policy links. I hope you do not going around calling your colleages work "lame" and tell them their contributions may get them blocked again. Perhaps you would have replied with isntances of how they haven't been civil. I do not feel the need to justify myself on my talk page as the user is already aware of things they have said. If I was filing a complaint however I would. Also considering you seem to not have been aware of most of my dealings with that particular user I find it very odd you would then comment to state I am being rude."
  • 23:35, 3 June 2006
    • - "I think when 3 users get together to accuse everyone who opposes their view and revert their work, accuse them of being sock puppets etc, its a better indication of a smear campaign."
  • 00:25, 4 June 2006
    • - "You are not their supporting but adding IP's. You should be aware of your own actions they are documented there. You are filing two names to be added to the existing one. I don't think I need to explain this to you, the link says it all. I have proved my point. Good bye Nescio"
  • 00:35, 4 June 2006
    • - "I dare you to file a real RFCU on me so I can laugh at the results. Do yo know what it will say? I am a sockpuppet of Mr. Tibbs since we are on the same ISP same city, same burough even. Another reason why RFCU is not accurate. If you come here again calling me sockpuppet I will take appropriate actions, see WP:CIVIL and WP:PA. YOu like pasting the links, how about you follow them. I have every right to support a user here, or to support a statement asking for a RFCU. Perhaps a RFCU on me is your best bet if you have accusations to make. As for misrepresenting facts, we cleared that up with the link it seems. Good bye Nomen."
  • 00:45, 4 June 2006
    • - "Can you please post proof I said I was merecat? Don't think so. Good bye Nomen please follow WP:CIVIL and WP:PA. Oddly enough if you read just above you, or click the merecat link, you would see the statement on the signature. This is why people should do research before stating things. When people put "talk" links at the end of their name, they are not calling themselves "talk". Once again file the RFCU so I can laugh at the results, goodbye Nomen, not everyone you disagree with is Merecat, he isnt the bogeyman. This is all starting to seem like that Iraq page where you selectively read things. I have shown you the link where you are initiating a RFCU against 2 IP's good bye Nomen, I ask you refrain from spamming my talk page with your personal attacks in the form of accusations"
  • 01:14, 4 June 2006
    • - "Your joke is offensive, I ask you either cease posting accusations and slander on this talk page or apologize. You cannot state offensive things and then simply say "I was joking" when the environment is clearly not one where a joke was made. I will nor reiterate my point about the RFCU, you can click a link, it speaks for itself."
  • 13:02, 4 June 2006
    • - "This isnt a book, its not an article, its a statement from one user to another. It doesn't require the whole story, it requires what the user feels like saying. I will however take note of your rationale nonsense comment, its very interesting you feel that way. Nor does this user need to justify anything to you."
  • 13:27, 4 June 2006
    • - "Goodbye Nescio, your constant accusations and fishing have disrupted my editing for the day, and I am choosing to not respond to you until you become civil and stop make accusatory statements, stop fishing for information to support your outlandish claims etc. You will no longer be responded to on this talk page as you have been disruptive to me and my work."
  • 16:30, 4 June 2006
    • - "You have made false accusations regarding me that you now admit to being wrong. I believe an apology and a removal of my name from the RFCU is in order."
  • 17:25, 4 June 2006
    • - "stop commenting in discussions you are not a part of."
  • 14:30, 5 June 2006
    • - "Hope you return one day, I appreciated your help in removing the horribly bias edits that plagued some articles and your help in fighting against accusations that eventuall spread to me. What an intimidation tactic RFCU's can be, I am still waiting on my apologies ... better not hold my breath. Hopefully you will return one day, till then."
  • 13:42, 6 June 2006
    • - "People would take you seriously if you had an account, unfortunatly you are just a sockpuppet of a well known user that always advances "logical fallacy.""
  • 15:50, 7 June 2006
    • - "There are rules against personal attacks, you can view them here WP:PA. Its also already been proven I am not a sockpuppet by the RFCU, perhaps its time to realize Merecat/Rex is not the bogeyman, and not everyone who does not agree with you is merecat. Just maybe since you have already been proven wrong you will apologize, but by your harsh tone in your completely inappropriate message on rex's page, I doubt you will."
  • 23:20, 8 June 2006
    • - "Do not troll on my talk page or I will remove it, some admins feel you are being over zealous."
  • 23:24, 8 June 2006
    • - "Comments removed to prevent further trolling."
  • 23:39, 8 June 2006
    • - "Removed more trolling comments, warnings are tags, you seem not understand what tags are. Also your warnings are not within policy. Stop posting here."
  • 00:44, 9 June 2006
    • - "Removed more trolling attacks. Stop posting here."
  • 04:17, 9 June 2006
    • - "As I feared, the same users who accused me of being a sockpuppet are running to the RfC and making accusations. I am allowed to even defend myself? They are saying they started a poll in violation of WP:STRAW then tell me I am giving "cockamamie wikilawyering" for telling them that. They then say I cannot be reasoned with and state the cabal I asked for against me, wouldnt that be proof I try to resolve conflicts? They are even starting the rex accusations of me being a sockpuppet. Do I get to address these comments at all?"
  • 04:19, 9 June 2006
    • - "The User:Mr. Tibbs comments arent even certifying according to the rule "This must involve the same dispute with a single user, not different disputes or multiple users." this is not the same dispute he is reffering to."
  • 10:18, 9 June 2006
    • - "This is not the same dispute, look at Anoranza's evidence it all relates to one incident, one dispute. Stop calling it wikilawyering when someone asks you to follow rules on wikipedia, its rude and insulting. Your Straw Poll did violate the provision of making it, and that is to get everyone to agree on questions, and now you are certifying a RfC for a situation that does not involve you after your failed RFCU against me. It says same dispute with a single user, his comments are not about that dispute."
  • 10:29, 9 June 2006
    • - "This did indeed come true as User:Mr. Tibbs has gone on to comment on my RfC a user who supported the RFCU against me that resulted in me being proven to be an individual person. His comments are not about the current dispute as all the edits revolve around Anoranza's edits regarding propaganda terms, and his comments are about something completely different. Are not the comments suppose to be regarding the same dispute? Worse yet the user never went through the proper dispute resolution before even filing a RfC. The RfC is located above, before this turns into a witch hunt of people who accused me of things before, I ask you look at the foundation for the RfC to see if its even warranted and if this user can certify it, though they are not involved in the current dispute"
  • 17:53, 9 June 2006
    • - "Mr. Tibbs actually lives in New York if you were unaware. OOL-CPE-WPGRNY-69-121-132-0-22. The WPGRNY is the designation for his area. He states the IP on his talk page. . That links back to "Optimum Online (Cablevision Systems)""
  • 22:31, 9 June 2006
    • - "Statements like "you cannot be serious to keep this up" only hurt your cause. The admin stated the person editied from a proxy so what you are asking for cannot be proved in a way. Just relax Mr. Tibbs certified your RfC, or at least stop making those kinds of remarks to admins. While you did start a RfC against me, I do not want to see you perm banned or something over this whole thing."
  • 11:26, 11 June 2006
    • - "I was wondering if you can reffer this to an admin or take a look at it yourself. It is passed the 48 hours for the RfC and I have am disputing the current comments and the certifying user as neither has been involved in the current dispute, nor has the certifying user attempted to resolve it on my talk page or the articles page as the rules for certifying an RfC state. Furthermore the certifying user has engaged in recruiting people to comment on the RfC under false pretenses, accusing me of being a sockpuppet. The RfC also now has a sockpuppet accusing me of being a sockpuppet, and another user who I have never been on the same article with also accusing me of it. I had to get a Checkuser against myself to put this to bed: Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_checkuser#Merecat. Considering there accusations have been proven false it makes their comments even less userful to the RfC. I would just like an admin to read it over and review my statements and proof as to why the RfC should be closed. If you cannot because of your involvement, passing this info to another admin would be great. Thank you"
  • 16:13, 11 June 2006
    • - "I was hoping you would apologize for your accusations that have been proven false, however I see that will not happen. I do remind you WP:NPA."
  • 10:00, 12 June 2006
    • - "An RfC is about fixing our differences, considering this comment it does not appear as though that is what you were hoping to do by certifying the RfC, so this comment will be noted on it."
  • 10:08, 12 June 2006
    • - "You violated the conditions again and it will be noted in my comments section, you placed the RfC information on articles that were not in dispute. Have a good day."
  • 10:33, 12 June 2006
    • - "Yeah I have to agree, Mr. Tibbs even tried to get people to post by asserting I was merecat, however it failed as the person must have seen the RFCU they added me to that showed I was not. I am trying to get an admin to look at the RfC and let me know if Mr. Tibbs can even certify it as he has had a bad faith history with me before and wasn't involved in the dispute in the first place. He has even gone on to posting the RfC information on articles that are unrelated to the dispute where I have voted for or against something, another bad faith attempt. Perhaps they are starting to realize they are the only ones who think I am a bad editor, all that effort and they have only got one user to agree with them and he is saying its because I am a sockpuppet and acknowledges he will keep accusing me of it regardless of what RFCU states. I think that is a situation that may have to be taken to admins as well."
  • 19:27, 12 June 2006
    • - "Thank you for your comments, I want to stay but I am getting increasingly frustrated with users ganging up to attack people. Its annoying to have someone make an accusation against you, then when you prove them wrong, they make up random reasons why your proof is wrong. I am hoping I can get an admin to look at it, however I have been unsuccessful, if nothing meaningful is added to it soon I will just remove my comments from it, and act as if it does not exist. It seems some people do not realize what a RfC is for and if they are not gonig to use it to settle a dispute then I will not participate in it. Also thank you for your support."
  • 20:39, 12 June 2006
    • - "If you feel violating the conditions of the RfC is in your power then so be it. I am just letting you know its been noted in the RfC itself. However much you want to make the RfC about your situation it is not. Anoranza's evidence shows its limited in scope to Operation Just Cause and Panama War article. Your attempts to extend it beyond that are failing"

Applicable policies and guidelines

{list the policies and guidelines that apply to the disputed conduct}

  1. Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view
  2. Misplaced Pages:No personal attacks
  3. Misplaced Pages:Vandalism#Types_of_vandalism Removing warnings for vandalism or other issues from one's talk page may also be considered vandalism.

Evidence of trying and failing to resolve the dispute

(provide diffs and links)

My attempts:
Deleted:
  2. "Stop posting here."
  3. "Stop posting here"

Users certifying the basis for this dispute

{Users who tried and failed to resolve the dispute}

  1. Añoranza 03:17, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
  2. Trying to reason with User:Zer0faults is like trying to lecture the deaf. Start a poll and he just says its invalid and gives some cockamamie wikilawyering of WP:STRAW. Try and discuss things with him and you either get personally attacked or a non-answer. Basically this user has the same behavior pattern as User:Rex071404/sockpuppets. He will argue/editwar endlessly until he gets what he wants, claim he is just correcting "POV" or "Undue weight", and berate anyone who dares to interfere. While at the same time doing everything he can to game the system. -- Mr. Tibbs 04:09, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Other users who endorse this summary

Response

I would first like to state that this user has not attempted any dispute resolution at all. I believe its a precursor to the step of a RfC.

Second I would like to note Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#User:A.C3.B1oranza and Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#User:A.C3.B1oranza_again which were both filed prior to this requesting administrator assistance on the users removing of the term "Operation Iraqi Freedom" from wikipedia articles. This to me seems like a bad faith attack in response to my incident report, are RfC's allowed to be filed in retaliation?

I would also like to state the 3RR report against me is listed as "stale" and no ruling was made on it, I did contest it, so I believe its inappropriate to list as some sort of evidence of wrong doing.

I will however now address the issues, however I am stating I feel this RfC is retaliatory in nature and doesnt follow the rules as the user did not attempt realistic means of dispute resolution:

  1. Under the section below of evidence listed as "even corrected typos" the user lists an edit but does not listed edits made after or before. If you review the first edit the user removes mention of the Oil-for-Food program from the article and I add it back, its there now as I proved to the user France was involved, they insisted they were not, though the article on the program controversy states they were. As you can see here its been linked and properly sourced.
  2. These "personal attacks", are an attempt by the user to warn me, that I do not have a right to revert their edits. She said having operation names in articles was "inappropriate", for which there is no policy on this, and that me putting them back was "obscene." They then started accusing me of using a "Cold War innuendo", not sure what this is, it seemed to be from here that the user was now attempting to pick a fight, and so the comments were removed again. They then told me that moving warnings, which those were not as they contained no appropriate tag, more like hostile "back off" statements, was against Wiki policy. I removed the comments again, is it not seeming like trolling that this user appears on my page yet again to basically pick a fight? The comments were removed and I told the user their comments were not Wiki policy warnings. They then post NPOV and NPA tags on the page , I removed the comments again. They seemed to consider their statements made on my page as some sort of dispute resolution, which hostile comments such as those cannot be seen as a good faith effort at dispute resolution, they did not even offer or ask for a middle ground of sorts.
  3. I am not sure what innuendo is actually accusing me of. An admin reverted one of the articles in question as the user had moved the page, then deleted mention of the original title stating they were fixing redirects, kind of misleading when the intent was to remove mentioning of propaganda terms they later admit to.
  4. As for violation of Misplaced Pages:Vandalism#Types_of_vandalism there was never such a warning of vandalism. Unless the user wants to claim they attempted dispute resolution in the same sentence as they were accusing me of vandalism, of which of their below edits I do not believe the term vandalism is even used.
  5. As for their attempts at dispute resolution, the first link is the one mentioned above, somehow a vandalism accusation and a dispute resolution in one. I obviously question the concept of this, as accusatory statements are not going to be taken as the accuser wants to resolve things nicely. The 5th one is a good example of the language used in this users "dispute resolution". They stated: "As you have already been blocked once you should be more careful.." I take that as a threat, and oddly that conversation is not even linked to the recent events, seems like they are stretching to fill this RfC. I repeatedly asked the user to stop posting on my talk page and they always continue to do so in accusatory means and threatening tones, that they would go and now claim these as "dispute resolution" is absurd.
  6. As for "ignores NPOV" the statement I was keeping was not originally added by me, but was eventually fully sourced and even wikilinked to the section in the appropriate article that states the so called NPOV comment. So not only is it mentioned their involvement in this article prior to my arrival, but its also mentioned in the article for Oil for Food Scandal article subsection Criminal_investigation_in_France. The two people in question were also part of the interior ministry, not as the user states "French firms". So this NPOV claim is just off base completely as I was correct and it was not a violation of NPOV but sourcing a fact mentioned in other articles here. If you look at the users original comment their summary does not even state why they removed the information.
  7. As for the 3RR that did go through, I do admit to breaking it. The other user was also found to be breaking it, however that is also not really relevant. You can see the other users block User_talk:Mr._Tibbs#Blocked_for_8_hours so we both violated it.
  8. Regarding misrepresenting facts, an admin did comment they felt she was being overzealous, unless CydeWeys is not an admin?


The user that is accusing me has gone on to state the admin who reverted the article is picking their own "preffered version" The admin who blocked her recently over 3RR "JDoorjam who does not know how to count to high numbers temporarily had blocked me erroneously" which is pretty rude, the high number in question is 3 apparently. These kinds of rude comments are why I remove her comments, I will not be baited as this is how she responds, along with calling peoples edits "lame" and "obscene."

This user as my understanding states has been blocked for being uncivil over this very incident. I may be wrong on the ruling however.

I got blocked for the cynical comment that an admin who blocked me for a 3RR violation that was none should learn to count. This was related to this case in so far as it was one of the many cases where Zer0faults engaged in revert warring. I find the above comment hard to believe to be accidentally misleading as Zer0faults followed the case. Añoranza 12:40, 17 June 2006 (UTC)


Regarding Mr. Tibbs

comment - putting this here because I do not know where I can fully comment yet. User:Mr. Tibbs comment above is not following the rules stated above,

"This must involve the same dispute with a single user, not different disputes or multiple users."

I ask it be removed as it also contains an attack by accusing my of being a sockpuppet, something that has already been proven false. --zero faults 04:21, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Comment - User Mr. Tibbs is attempting to bias people before their arrival here by accusing me further of being a banned user that was proven in the RFCU that I was not. This user is attempting to gather a witchhunt by pulling the people who did not like merecat into this RfC though its already been proven I am not merecat --zero faults 10:49, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

The above is in violation of the policy regarding RfC's "To request other users to comment on an issue, add a link to the Talk page for the article, a brief neutral statement of the issue, and the date. " Calling me a sockpuppet is far from neutral. --zero faults 03:43, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Comment Mr. Tibbs remarks are further proof of selective editing. In his example, which is different thent his dispute he is arguing over symantics. He wants to use the term "casus belli" in the Iraq War article. The definition is reasons given for war in a declaration of war, however Mr. Tibbs goes on to state that no declaration of war exists. He then wants to use the term, but not in its strict definition, but in meaning "reason for gonig to war", removing the total need of a declaration of war at all. Anyway I attempted mediation with this user: which they call "gaming the system." The mediator made his comments regarding the issue stating I was making the best compromise Mr. Tibbs then asks another user, an admin to state their opinion. The admin in question is was User:CBDunkerson and gave his opinion here stating that the term casus belli should not be used. Mr. Tibbs then rejected that and asked other users to give feedback, one of them being User:Nescio . Nescio then moved the comment to the Iraq War article and stated his opinion which states there was numerous "rationales" and quoted a study. I supported this statement Nescio posted and even offered an olive branch in supporting a statement noting WMD's was the most publicized of all This was never taken into account however by Mr. Tibbs. As you see this users accusations are false, I have tried numerous times alone to find a middle ground with him, however he refuses to budge from his opinion. He even started a poll that goes against Straw Poll guidelines as he did not achieve a concensus on the questions, this led CBDunkerson to post on the Iraq page stating: The term should not be used again as Mr. Tibbs put its use in the poll he created He commented again later after me and another user refused to vote in protest fo the questions being unfair and not addressing our issues . The worst part is that this issue is unrelated to the current RfC and Mr. Tibbs is attempting to tack it in because of the failed RFCU against me and because he was blocked for 3RR while attempting to get me blocked. --zero faults 13:32, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Comment - The certifying user has advocated the complete reversion of my work instead of editing or working with me, their summary of them advocating this was "Don't bother" --zero faults 01:32, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
Comment - After Mr. Tibbs found out about the RFCU proving I am not merecat he posted the following on the below users talk page calling me a bad editor and now stating it does not matter if I am a sockpuppet or not. I would like this to be considered as an RfC is suppose to be a place where the users can discuss a middle ground or work something out, however Mr. Tibbs is posting messages on talk pages insulting me, not the proper steps to take when wanting to work with someone. It seems people think a RfC is a means of punishment, another reason this should be closed, it has bad faith participation all over it. --zero faults 10:03, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
Comment - Mr. Tibbs has now went and pasted the RfC information into articles which are not in contention, simply ones I have edited in the past. The list of articles that are not even mentioned above is Operation Enduring Freedom Scholars for 9/11 Truth Movement to Impeach George Bush and NSA Electronic Surveillance Program I think its obvious by now this is an intimidation tactic as these are articles where votes were cast. This user did not post the message on GunBound or Graffitti or other articles I have had considerable work on and contributed to. This bias selection only proves the certifying users motives in attempting to turn this into a witch hunt. In 2 days if I do not receive admin attention to this RfC I will be removing the response section and letting this turn into a attack session as Mr. Tibbs seems to want. I point to his previous mentions of my RfC by calling me merecat, and his comments on Gorgonzilla's page also noted above showing this user does not want something to be worked out. --zero faults 10:16, 12 June 2006 (UTC)


Regarding User:Gorgonzilla

Comment - User:Gorgonzilla is yet another user not speaking about this current dispute between me and Anoranza, nor are they even stating something Anoranza is stating in their complaint, so I am not sure what exactly they are certifying. Furthermore they are engaging in a personal attack as this user is aware of the RFCU that stated I was not a sockpuppet. I would like the entire RfC thrown out as none of the users certifying it are engaged in the current dispute nor showing proof of dispute resolution as required. It says "at least two people should have contacted the user on their talk page, or the talk pages involved in the dispute, and tried but failed to resolve the problem" This has not been met here. --zero faults 02:58, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Comment - This user has once again accused me of things that are unsubstantiated. They accused me of suppressing their statements, however I even notified the user on their talk page that they were posting in the wrong place. As its stated above I do not know where they are suppose to put thei replies, however I knew it was not here. This is turning into a fiasco as people are breaking rules then accusing my of "wikilawyering" and "suppression" when its pointed out to them. I could have simply reverted the page since they did put it in the wrong place. But I went ahead and informed them they made a mistake, if I was attempting to supress their comments would I have alerted them of it? If noone wants to stand by the rules and anyone attempting to ask they are enforced is mocked, what is the point of having them? --zero faults 18:13, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Comment - After alerting the above user of the ruling I received the following as a comment basically attacking me and even attempting to justify their accusations by stating merecat changed ISPs. I think I have sufficiently proven I am not merecat and this users constant accusations show their unwillingness to even discuss the matter. They even went on to call me "obnoxious" and a "POV peddler" and stated my approach to this RfC, which they now have no reason to certify as they are not involved in this dispute, ".. makes it clear that it is only a matter of time before the matter gets to Arbcon". This is even further proof this user is not here to resolve a dispute in the first place, but to attack my standing. I still request an admin to look at the certifying user Mr. Tibbs as him reasons have been proven wrong, and they do not relate to this dispute which is based around the removal of "Operation Iraqi Freedom" and "Operation Just Cause" from articles, which is all Anoranza's information points to, these two users are attempting to make other issues into this dispute, which it is not. --zero faults 16:20, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Comment - The above user has now injected himself into the discussion regarding "operation just cause", I feel this may be a baiting attempt to insert himself into this current dispute. I have ceased discussion on that page till this RfC is looked at, as I will not be baited into online confrontations. It should be noted this user has never edited a page that I have edited, until this moment, today after finding out the new RFCU, noted above, showed I was not merecat. --zero faults 19:43, 11 June 2006 (UTC)


General Comments

Comment - To prove the crew wrong of their accusations, I requested a Checkuser on my own against Merecat, and the results are in Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_checkuser#Merecat. I would like the bottom comment removed, and the above certification remove as well as Mr. Tibbs comment removed as they are all on false basis. That leaves this RfC without a certifying user as well, another reason for it to be closed. --zero faults 10:53, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Comment - Removed below comments as the user is banned for being behind an open proxy and being a zombie computer, block log here --zero faults 01:39, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Comment - Addressed Mr. Tibbs selective quoting above here Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Zer0faults/Illustrating my point Please do not comment in this space as its an extension of my response, a section that is not to be commented in. I just did not want to make this page look bad.


Users who endorse this summary:

  1. --zero faults 03:46, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
  2. Rangeley 02:39, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
  3. Rmt2m 15:28, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
  4. I concur. I appreciate it if we could just address the matter at hand, and not try to fight old wars which are not relevant to the scope of this matter. Morton devonshire 19:41, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Outside view

This is a summary written by users not directly involved with the dispute but who would like to add an outside view of the dispute. Users editing other sections ("Statement of the dispute" and "Response") should not edit the "Outside Views" section, except to endorse an outside view.

{Add summary here, but you must use the endorsement section below to sign. Users who edit or endorse this summary should not edit the other summaries.}

Statement by TheronJ

I don't see anything that should be fixed by anything more serious than everyone taking a deep breath and stepping back. Añoranza, Mr. Tibbs, and Zer0Fault all could have behaved more civilly, but I'm not willing to point fingers at anyone, with the following quasi-exceptions.

  1. In general, the edit trail seems to show classic escalation. I sympathize with both sides, but I note that either Zer0Fault or Añoranza could have responded to the other civilly, and that if either one had, (1) the dispute probably wouldn't have gotten here, and (2) the carefully civil editor would end up looking a lot better when things got to this stage, but both editors ended up using some pretty harsh tone. I'm sure they're both great editors, and look forward to their future contributions to the encyclopedia.
  2. Zer0Fault obviously did edit his own talk page to remove Añoranza's various comments calling Zer0Fault's edits "obscene." See, e.g., . I don't know of any policy that prevents someone from doing that to non-admins, and it seems to be a relatively common practice.
  3. Zer0Fault also referred to Añoranza's repeated attempts to post notes on Zer0Fault's talk page calling ZF's reverts "obscene" as "trolling." I think "trolling's" overused, but if calling someone a troll when they don't think they are is a violation of WP:CIVIL, there are a lot of people going to be in trouble.
  4. Ultimately, this dispute seems fairly silly. Apparently, Añoranza sees using US names for military operations (e.g., "Operation Iraqi Freedom" instead of "the Iraq War") as propoganda, but ZF doesn't. . Both sides could have handled this better, but I don't see any evidence that anyone tried dispute resolution. Posting notes on ZF's page calling him "obscene" doesn't qualify AFAIC. If there's a spot anywhere where anyone on either side proposed mediation, posted an RFC, or did anything other than snipe at each other, I sure can't see it. (Nomen does deserve credit for his "truce" suggestion, though - good on you!)
  5. I may be missing some of the meatier examples of bad behavior or dispute resolution -- if there's something more substantial that I missed, I apologize. TheronJ 22:00, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
  6. Update: As MrTibbs points out, I did miss some links that are related to dispute resolution. There were various straw polls relating to (1) whether the "war on terrorism" category should be included in the terrorism infobox,(here) and (here), (2) whether the single or predominant causus belli for the war in Iraq was Saddam's alleged WMD. (here), and Zer0Faults also asked for mediation here. With regard to the straw polls, I don't think it's wikilawyering for Zer0Faults to continue to argue his point even after turning out to be in the minority - it's pretty clear that straw polls aren't supposed to be used to shut the minority up.
  7. I tend to stand by my original recommendation - both sides need to take a breath and try to reach a consensus. Yes, ZF said some stuff that's a little sharp, but it was usually in response to an accusation that he was a sockpuppet, obscene, or both. ZF, Gorgonzilla, and Nomen all seem willing to start over, which is great. That would be my recommendation for everyone else.TheronJ 16:27, 13 June 2006 (UTC)


Users who endorse this summary:

  1. Gorgonzilla 23:16, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
    OK I am willing to accept that maybe Zer0faults is getting a raw deal after giving honest support to an editor that subsequently turned out to be a nerdowell blocked for good cause. I still think that there is an unfortunate history of insisting on POV positions, in particular the idea that the name of the article on the US invasion of Panama should be 'Operation just cause' strikes me as so ridiclous that I don't see how anyone could hold it in good faith. Perhaps that is because I am not a US citizen. The point is though that I don't think anyone who is not a US citizen would see the US centric point of view here and wikipedia is not meant to be according to one national point of view. -- Gorgonzilla 23:16, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
  2. --zero faults 23:22, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
    I support this statement, and apologize for some of the uncivil things I have said. I have made peace with Nescio already and today user Gorgonzilla. I hope in time, Mr. Tibbs and me can bury the hatchet as they say. I think me and Gorgonzilla have broke the numbering, or maybe just me ... --zero faults 23:24, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
  3. Nscheffey
    I strongly agree that there are no real problems here. A bit of sharp language, but no serious content disputes that I can see. This bickering has only resulted in a general degradation of clarity and readibility, and has become a distraction from improving what should be a great article. Does anyone seriously think the civility issues discussed here are a major problem? If someone could tell me in a single sentence what (biased/unbiased) information is being (injected in/removed from) the article I would listen. Otherwise I think this RFC is a waste of time and effort.Nscheffey 10:46, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
The drama in the Comment section below is getting out of control. Zer0faults and Mr. Tibbs are enacting their own personal dispute. There is no progress being made toward the article, and no real civility issues that anyone has seen fit to recognize. This argument is a distracting and pointless detour from writing an encyclopedia. Both of these users need to calm down. If there are no content disputes, and no serious user behavior issues, this disagreement should end. How can we achieve this? Perhaps this page needs more input from impartial Wikipedians to ease the tension. Nscheffey 10:21, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Comment

I think you are shortchanging this entire situation, Theron. Dispute resolution was attempted. Multiple polls were started first by User:De mortuis... and then one by me. All that we get is "Oh thats invalid because WP:STRAW says polls are not binding!". And so theres still an off-and-on edit war regarding some of the pages on Template:War on Terrorism. Mediation was also attempted. That didn't go anywhere either. But this is just the edit-warring/NPOV issues. Theres more to it than that. The general sarcastic and malicious statements directed at anyone who dares confront Zer0faults regarding the NPOV issues is more disturbing to me. What am I to think of an editor who says things like this: "If you feel you do not need to respond to me, then you failed here, and on the talk page. Also, well this is a message for Kevin Baas, so unless he is you? you aren't being addressed here. Good bye Mr Tibbs. I would make a sad face, but I dont think there are wikiemotes." on a regular basis (see my evidence section for more examples)? I don't think this dispute is silly at all. This issue has caused one article to be protected for a week (2003 Invasion of Iraq) numerous previous attempts at dispute resolution, (polls, mediation, pages-on-pages of "dialog") multiple incident reports and 3RR violations and last but not least, this RfC itself. No, I think this situation is about as serious as it gets. -- Mr. Tibbs 06:47, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I do not htink you get to make comments here. Anyway your multiples are (2) and have nothing to do with Anoranza amazingly. Also one of the 3RR violations was ruled stale. So its just (1) 3RR that you were also blocked for. Also reporting an sockpuppet making comments on my RfC is not against the rules, that sockpuppet was labeled as one by the way, its in my response section if you would check it. Also your poll was invalid, 2 users told you and an admin, what more do you need? I think this is proof that you are the one poeple cannot talk to, after the two users the poll is suppose to pursuade tell you the questions are wrong and an admin, you continue it anyway. How can you classify that as dispute resolution? The people you are trying to resolve th dispute with are telling you the questions are unfair and you tell them, to stop wikilawyering. I think your "proof" up there shows how much Mr. Tibbs has attempted dispute resolution. My response sections points out the admins comments, and other users and the cabal. But the worst part is, Mr. Tibbs, your situation is not related to this situation with Anoranza, no matter how much you put it on this page, stop trying to inject yourself into this RfC. I point out that all Anoranza's evidence is focused on two articles, so Mr. Tibbs plasters the page with quotes in an attempt to spread it beyond that. It doesn't however. --zero faults 10:29, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
Furthermore one of the incident reports isnt even mine and some are Mr. Tibbs attempting to get someone to look at his 3RR violation that was ruled stale. The two incident reports relevant to this discussion have already been mentioned, its the ones about Anoranza. Me asking if an admin can remove an anon comment, from an IP that has been tagged a "zombie machine" is not an incident report against anyone. I am happy some people see what this discussion is about and do not accept Mr. Tibbs attempting to divert it. --zero faults 10:32, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
And last, the edit war is over now that people took my advice and did in fact remove all mention of war rationales from the overview, you would see that is one of my suggestions in the cabal. The page has not been subject to an edit war since. --zero faults 10:34, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
"But the worst part is, Mr. Tibbs, your situation is not related to this situation with Anoranza, no matter how much you put it on this page, stop trying to inject yourself into this RfC." And here we go again with the wikilawyering. Am I the only one who finds it disagreeable that someone tries to redefine the statement of dispute to the co-signer of an RfC? Am I the only one who thinks its disturbing that when say uninvolved User:GofG tried to get Zero to tone it down a bit Zero then goes and makes some very odd insinuations about GofG? Maybe I'm just thin-skinned but when I see those sort of things happening, I tend to think badly of it. Theron, you're kind of missing the pages and pages of dialogue on all the articles related to this dispute but I'm glad you said this: "With respect, I don't think it's wikilawyering for Zer0Faults to continue to argue his point even after turning out to be in the minority - it's pretty clear that straw polls aren't supposed to be used to shut the minority up." Because thats really the crux of the problem here. Zer0 feels that control of content should go to whoever can argue/editwar the longest. And I think that control of content should go to the consensus. -- Mr. Tibbs 08:12, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
This is real simple, you are not a building a concensus. You were attempting to use Straw Polls to determine your point by building a poll that did not address the other side at all. Your poll was flawed as the people arguing the other side told you, as the admin told you. That is why (1) Straw Polls are a guideline, not a policy (2) By the rules of the straw poll, you are suppose to build a concensus on the questions. There I go wikilawyering, explaining to you how straw polls work, maybe if you read up on them instead of tried to use them to build a "fake" concensus, since the concensus you are building isnt even addressing the issue. Furthermore the whole issue on Iraq War is over and the overview I reccomended in the cabal is in fact in place, it turns out other users agreed with me, rationales in the overview was not necessary and made it bloated. You say I am edit warring yet the cabal went against you, the admin you asked to intervene went against you, nescio's post that you asked him to make even was something I agreed with, I even tried before the last poll to find middlegrounds with people before editing that article you are the only one disagreeing with me. You have been the only one that has not even been willing to budge in any respect.
Finally, none of Anoranza's evidence has anything to do with you or Iraq War article. Stop trying to insert yourself into this. Worst part is I offered you an olive branch to address your concerns User_talk:Mr._Tibbs#Good_Faith and you ignore it, proving just why you are here, to escalate this situation and agitate it, not to resolve it. --zero faults 10:04, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
"proving just why you are here, to escalate this situation and agitate it, not to resolve it." Right, thats why I've abstained from editing the articles on which you created conflict for over a week now. I've abstained from editing those articles because I knew you would editwar just like you did in the past with numerous other editors and I preferred to keep the article history clean of that. Which is why the "overview I reccomended in the cabal is in fact in place" because I cared more about avoiding editwarring than the article's integrity. And that avoidance is exactly what you want because it gives you control of the content, which is why whenever someone confronts you about the editwarring/NPOV/consensus issues, you go on the offensive just like you are now, and that creates the NPA/civility/gaming the system issues. -- Mr. Tibbs 10:25, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Would you like to state here then what your issues are and how we can address them in this RfC? This way we can all move forward. What are you looking to get from this is kind of what I am asking. --zero faults 10:39, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
I just stated the issues and the issues are also in the statement of dispute of this RfC. Which I co-signed. -- Mr. Tibbs 10:41, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
But by agreeing you see a problem, so what do you feel can resolve the dispute? You assert you are part of it and so I think your input as to how to resolve it is important. How do you feel this can be resolved, lets work to a middle ground. --zero faults 10:44, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
What can resolve the dispute? Simple, stop doing the bad things listed in the statement of dispute on this RfC. -- Mr. Tibbs 06:11, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
I guess that speaks volumes. You claim im inserting POV and starting edit wars. You claim the concensus is against my edits, yet since you stopped editting the article another user has put it the way I thought it should be and noone has changed it. If concensus was in your favor, if everyone felt otherwise, wouldnt someone have edited it by now? THis also proves how off base your survey was, it didnt address the issue and that is why you have this disconnect between your survey votes and actual user edits. If people thought I was a "bad editor" as you like to call me, or that I was inserting POV, they would be here saying it, or changing the edits. The fact that since you stopped participating the page has stayed the same proves it was not me causing the edit war, proves concensus was not on your side. I cannot stop what I was not doing, you simply want an admission of guilt, something you can take to arbcom, but I will not give you that cause I dispute everything up there, and have disputed all your quotes as some of them take place right after you or Anoranza has insulted the quality of my work. --zero faults 10:25, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
"The fact that since you stopped participating the page has stayed the same proves it was not me causing the edit war, proves concensus was not on your side." So you think because people chose not to edit war with you that means you're right? So by that logic because I haven't edited the article in over a week means I think the article is fine as is. I guess that illustrates the problem here, you really have a "Might Makes Right" attitude when it comes to control of content. The current version doesn't even meet Misplaced Pages:Lead section much less all the POV issues you were pushing that lead to this poll having to be made. -- Mr. Tibbs 07:52, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
Do not put words in my mouth. I see you plan to use some wikilawyering to change the intro that everyone seems fine with? Its almost amuzing, you say people do not want to edit war with me ... where are these people? Wouldn't they be here complaining about edit warring with me? YOu are the only one here it seems, the only one who was fighting over that intro, yet you keep claiming its me. THe fact of the matter is, since you stopped reverting it, there has been no issue over it, making the issue solely yours, noone has even complained on the discussion page about it. At what point do you look around and wonder if you are the only one "warring" over the intro? Also we have discussed your poll quite a bit, maybe if you did not manipulate the topic it would not have come out that way. Noone questions WMD was a main reason, as most of the votes point out, there was other reasons, and so we have Undue Weight, there I go wikilawyering again. Can you explain to me why you can link wiki pages and when I do it I am wikilawyering? Do you only follow the guidelines that work in your favor? Also the lead follows the format of most other war articles on this scale. May I ask now for you to answer on the RfC page since you bring it up, can you show me the page where the community got together to vote on the questions for that poll, to form a concensus as noted on the Straw Polls page? --zero faults 10:12, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
"where are these people?" They're in this poll: But of course according to you that poll is invalid, as is my involvement in this RfC, my edits, everything I say, and of course you think the same applies to User:Añoranza and anyone else who dares to question your ownership of any article that you touch. But lets just cut to the quick. Are you saying that you have not done any of the things listed in the statement of dispute? -- Mr. Tibbs 07:33, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
Considering you are not answering my question about the poll, I will not answer any questions by you. This RfC is not your personal attack section, I think you are confused as to why its here. I already explained whats wrong with your poll, it speaks volumes that you refuse to address that issue. --zero faults 11:47, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Nscheffey, I will not be posting here anymore. Its not even appropriate. --zero faults 12:35, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

If I can summarize, it seems like Mr. Tibbs wants two things from Zer0faults: (1) that Zer0faults respond more civilly, and (2) that Zerofaults stop making edits to pages where he's in the minority.

As I discussed above, the first is a fair request (even though most of the examples involve Zer0faults responding to people who were themselves being uncivil to him, civility is always a good idea), and ZF seems to agree to be more civil even when provoked, so good for him/her. (I only wish Anoranza would agree to be more civil in response). On the other hand, IMHO, Mr. Tibbs is just wrong about the second point -- it's actually contrary to wiki policy to try to shut up a minority view, and it's certainly not wikilawyering for ZF to point that out. TheronJ 13:21, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

There is a difference between continuing to stand to a minority position and the endless innuendo and reverts Zer0faults engages in. Just look at the zillions of times he brought up the Cold War as a defense for propaganda terms as titles of other articles. You can refute him time and again, he would not stop. Añoranza 13:23, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
The Cold War arguement was not originally made by me. Its also a correct analogy as the name Cold War originated from a US official, not a news paper reporter as some seem to maintain. Its also noted in the Cold War article that the name came from Bernard Baruch who used the term in both a speech and again in front of the Senate before the reported used it. This analogy was to counter the arguement made by someone else that reporters make up the most popular terms, that user was Mr. Tibbs Since I have proven him wrong, its turned into the "Cold War analogy". I have offered a middle ground on this pages talk page, hopefully one can be reached. --zero faults 13:38, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
Oh my god, again. No! I never claimed that the term cold war was made up by a reporter. Cold war does not favor any side, and it is commonly used, unlike Operation Iraqi Freedom (that is why the article is named Iraq War), and Operation Just Cause (that is why consensus is to rename it to Invasion of Panama, but your reverts led to the article being blocked for more than a week). However, you used that "analogy" again and again to defend propaganda names where they are inaproppriate. Stop it now! Añoranza 14:00, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
I want to point out something, I can easily use this to justify a RFCU since I just said Mr. Tibbs said it was by a reporter and you responded by saying "No! I never claimed that the term cold war was made up by a reporter". However I will just take this to mean you did not read the commend carefully. Please do so next time, thank you. --zero faults 14:11, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Statement by Ideogram

I have started a discussion on the talk page of this article. So far my impression is that Zer0faults is capable of negotiating in good faith. I will update this statement as it progresses.

This threaded discussion is an abuse of the RfC process and is completely unacceptable. I quote:

  • Specifically, do not create "disendorsement" sections on RfCs. If you disagree with something someone else has said, you may add your own separate statement discussing how you disagree. Do not create a "Users who do not agree with this summary" section, or the equivalent. This tends be a confrontational act and usually creates more heat than light.

All of you, shut the hell up, and make sure you get a good night's sleep, a good meal, and a nice shower before you come back here.

Geez. Ideogram 14:13, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Users who endorse this summary:

  1. Ideogram 13:48, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Statement by

Users who endorse this summary:

Discussion

All signed comments and talk not related to an endorsement should be directed to this page's discussion page. Discussion should not be added below. Discussion should be posted on the talk page. Threaded replies to another user's vote, endorsement, evidence, response, or comment should be posted to the talk page.