Misplaced Pages

:Deletion review/Active - Misplaced Pages

Article snapshot taken from Wikipedia with creative commons attribution-sharealike license. Give it a read and then ask your questions in the chat. We can research this topic together.
< Misplaced Pages:Deletion review

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by AnomieBOT (talk | contribs) at 00:04, 26 January 2014 ((BOT) Updating discussions: Jan 19, 21, 22, 24, 25, 26. Errors? User:AnomieBOT/shutoff/DRVClerk). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Revision as of 00:04, 26 January 2014 by AnomieBOT (talk | contribs) ((BOT) Updating discussions: Jan 19, 21, 22, 24, 25, 26. Errors? User:AnomieBOT/shutoff/DRVClerk)(diff) ← Previous revision | Latest revision (diff) | Newer revision → (diff)

Shortcut

Instructions

Before listing a review request, please:

  1. Consider attempting to discuss the matter with the closer as this could resolve the matter more quickly. There could have been a mistake, miscommunication, or misunderstanding, and a full review may not be needed. Such discussion also gives the closer the opportunity to clarify the reasoning behind a decision.
  2. Check that it is not on the list of perennial requests. Repeated requests every time some new, tiny snippet appears on the web have a tendency to be counter-productive. It is almost always best to play the waiting game unless you can decisively overcome the issues identified at deletion.

Steps to list a new deletion review

If your request is completely non-controversial (e.g., restoring an article deleted with a PROD, restoring an image deleted for lack of adequate licensing information, asking that the history be emailed to you, etc), please use Misplaced Pages:Requests for undeletion instead.
 
1.

Click here and paste the template skeleton at the top of the discussions (but not at the top of the page). Then fill in page with the name of the page, xfd_page with the name of the deletion discussion page (leave blank for speedy deletions), and reason with the reason why the discussion result should be changed. For media files, article is the name of the article where the file was used, and it shouldn't be used for any other page. For example: 

{{subst:drv2
|page=File:Foo.png
|xfd_page=Misplaced Pages:Files for deletion/2009 February 19#Foo.png
|article=Foo
|reason=
}} ~~~~
2.

Inform the editor who closed the deletion discussion by adding the following on their user talk page:

{{subst:DRV notice|PAGE_NAME}} ~~~~
3.

For nominations to overturn and delete a page previously kept, attach <noinclude>{{Delrev|date=2024 December 28}}</noinclude> to the top of the page under review to inform current editors about the discussion.

4.

Leave notice of the deletion review outside of and above the original deletion discussion:

  • If the deletion discussion's subpage name is the same as the deletion review's section header, use <noinclude>{{Delrevxfd|date=2024 December 28}}</noinclude>
  • If the deletion discussion's subpage name is different from the deletion review's section header, then use <noinclude>{{Delrevxfd|date=2024 December 28|page=SECTION HEADER AT THE DELETION REVIEW LOG}}</noinclude>
 

Commenting in a deletion review

Any editor may express their opinion about an article or file being considered for deletion review. In the deletion review discussion, please type one of the following opinions preceded by an asterisk (*) and surrounded by three apostrophes (''') on either side. If you have additional thoughts to share, you may type this after the opinion. Place four tildes (~~~~) at the end of your entry, which should be placed below the entries of any previous editors:

  • Endorse the original closing decision; or
  • Relist on the relevant deletion forum (usually Articles for deletion); or
  • List, if the page was speedy deleted outside of the established criteria and you believe it needs a full discussion at the appropriate forum to decide if it should be deleted; or
  • Overturn the original decision and optionally an (action) per the Guide to deletion. For a keep decision, the default action associated with overturning is delete and vice versa. If an editor desires some action other than the default, they should make this clear; or
  • Allow recreation of the page if new information is presented and deemed sufficient to permit recreation.

Examples of opinions for an article that had been deleted:

  • *'''Endorse''' The original closing decision looks like it was sound, no reason shown here to overturn it. ~~~~
  • *'''Relist''' A new discussion at AfD should bring a more thorough discussion, given the new information shown here. ~~~~
  • *'''Allow recreation''' The new information provided looks like it justifies recreation of the article from scratch if there is anyone willing to do the work. ~~~~
  • *'''List''' Article was speedied without discussion, criteria given did not match the problem, full discussion at AfD looks warranted. ~~~~
  • *'''Overturn and merge''' The article is a content fork, should have been merged into existing article on this topic rather than deleted. ~~~~
  • *'''Overturn and userfy''' Needs more development in userspace before being published again, but the subject meets our notability criteria. ~~~~
  • *'''Overturn''' Original deletion decision was not consistent with current policies. ~~~~

Remember that deletion review is not an opportunity to (re-)express your opinion on the content in question. It is an opportunity to correct errors in process (in the absence of significant new information), and thus the action specified should be the editor's feeling of the correct interpretation of the debate. Deletion review is facilitated by succinct discussions of policies and guidelines; long or repeated arguments are not generally helpful. Rather, editors should set out the key policies and guidelines supporting their preferred outcome.

The presentation of new information about the content should be prefaced by Relist, rather than Overturn and (action). This information can then be more fully evaluated in its proper deletion discussion forum. Allow recreation is an alternative in such cases.

Temporary undeletion

Admins participating in deletion reviews are routinely requested to restore deleted pages under review and replace the content with the {{TempUndelete}} template, leaving the history for review by everyone. However, copyright violations and violations of the policy on biographies of living persons should not be restored.

Closing reviews

A nominated page should remain on deletion review for at least seven days, unless the nomination was a proposed deletion. After seven days, an administrator will determine whether a consensus exists. If that consensus is to undelete, the admin should follow the instructions at Misplaced Pages:Deletion review/Administrator instructions. If the consensus was to relist, the page should be relisted at the appropriate forum. If the consensus was that the deletion was endorsed, the discussion should be closed with the consensus documented.

If the administrator closes the deletion review as no consensus, the outcome should generally be the same as if the decision was endorsed. However:

  • If the decision under appeal was a speedy deletion, the page(s) in question should be restored, as it indicates the deletion was not uncontroversial. The closer, or any editor, may then proceed to nominate the page at the appropriate deletion discussion forum, if they so choose.
  • If the decision under appeal was an XfD close, the closer may, at their discretion, relist the page(s) at the relevant XfD.

Ideally all closes should be made by an administrator to ensure that what is effectively the final appeal is applied consistently and fairly but in cases where the outcome is patently obvious or where a discussion has not been closed in good time it is permissible for a non-admin (ideally a DRV regular) to close discussions. Non-consensus closes should be avoided by non-admins unless they are absolutely unavoidable and the closer is sufficiently experienced at DRV to make that call. (Hint: if you are not sure that you have enough DRV experience then you don't.)

Speedy closes

  • Objections to a proposed deletion can be processed immediately as though they were a request at Misplaced Pages:Requests for undeletion
  • Where the closer of a deletion discussion realizes their close was wrong, and nobody has endorsed, the closer may speedily close as overturn. They should fully reverse their close, restoring any deleted pages if appropriate.
  • Where the nominator of a DRV wishes to withdraw their nomination, and nobody else has recommended any outcome other than endorse, the nominator may speedily close as "endorse" (or ask someone else to do so on their behalf).
  • Certain discussions may be closed without result if there is no prospect of success (e.g. disruptive or sockpuppet nominations, if the nominator is repeatedly nominating the same page, or the page is listed at WP:DEEPER). These will usually be marked as "administrative close".

Active discussions

26 January 2014

The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it.
File:Acacia Fraternity Crest.png (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (article|restore)

User:Stifle deleted it under NFCC#1 indicating that the image could be recreated in a Free form from a Blazon of the Coat of Arms. He did so without showing that such a Blazon existed, or that creating Blazon for it would not represent WP:OR. No change was made to either the Acacia Fraternity page or its talk page prior to the deletion. Naraht (talk) 18:33, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

  • Endorse own deletion. The blazon clearly exists if there was a crest/coat of arms drawn from it, and the file description page was tagged for over four months as replaceable. The file description also lacked a proper source. Stifle (talk) 19:10, 26 January 2014 (UTC)
  • Endorse All coats of arms have a blazon. Coats of arms are replaceable by a freely drawn based on the same blazon. See for example Misplaced Pages:Files for deletion/2013 July 17#File:Arzachena-Stemma.png and the subsequent sections on that FFD page. --Stefan2 (talk) 19:19, 26 January 2014 (UTC)
    • They have a blazon *if* all the relationship between all of the pieces is public. Let's say that a Fraternity Coat of Arms has a shield has 7 stars on it in the center. The fraternity has copyrighted that particular design, but the information on the relationship of the stars is only present in the image. In actuality, the stars are in the same geometrical shape as the 7 chapters that came together to form the fraternity, *but* that information is not public. All the blazon would contain would be that there are seven stars on the shield, *not* the relationship between them since that information is not public. (For a real world example, consider the method by which Brazil puts stars on its flag. If that were private, not public, it would be impossible to properly reproduce without directly refering to the image.Naraht (talk) 02:08, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
  • Endorse The fraternity website gives a conventional blazon here which would be easy to draw up. Mangoe (talk) 13:43, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
  • I agree there is a conventional blazon for Acacia Fraternity (I can't find blazons for most fraternities) There is also an exact version of the Coat of Arms which has been trademarked (unable to put exact URL, but at www.uspto.gov, search for acacia and fraternity). Would a user created blazon which did not match that be incorrect?Naraht (talk) 10:38, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it.

25 January 2014

The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it.
Ryu Seung-Woo (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

Played today for Bayer 04 Leverkusen in the Bundesliga, so he is now notable (WP:NFOOTBALL) . Neojesus (talk) 16:31, 25 January 2014 (UTC)

The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it.
  • Murder of Jeff Whittington – Endorsed. No Consensus closes are overturned at a lower frequency then hens are born with teeth. The trend is for SNGs to become more subordinate to the GNG then previously and this means that a very strong consensus is required to delete an article which fails an SNG but passes GNG. The absence of such a consensus invariably means that a no consensus or keep close is appropriate. – Spartaz 05:59, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it.
Murder of Jeff Whittington (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

closing admin says GNG is met. But consensus in murder AfDs is that WP:EVENT should be met. Out of the 3 keep !voters only one produced a decent argument and the other 2 were weak. The overwhelming consensus is for delete. LibStar (talk) 13:35, 25 January 2014 (UTC)

in that case the closing admin has applied a supervote. He believes GNG is met when he should be closing on this basis of consensus. LibStar (talk) 02:25, 26 January 2014 (UTC)
there was consensus that GNG was met. There was no consensus on whether the article needs to be deleted nevertheless -- Y not? 16:07, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

There was not consensus GNG was met. GNG excludes WP:ROUTINE coverage. If the majority of !voters thought GNG was met then most would !Vote keep. Again you are applying your own super vote, you think GNG is met, therefore the delete consensus doesn't outweigh the keep arguments, noting 2 of the 3 keep !voters presented weak arguments. LibStar (talk) 16:20, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

  • Endorse. This is not AfD2. See Misplaced Pages:Renominating for deletion. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:57, 25 January 2014 (UTC)
  • Overturn and delete. Closer applied own preferences which should properly have been expressed as a !vote. Stifle (talk) 17:13, 26 January 2014 (UTC)
  • Endorse I am very reluctant no overturn a no-consensus close. In particular, I rarely see a reason why someone who wants to delete an article should even bring one here. There is the much simpler method of waiting a few weeks and bringing a second AfD to try to find consensus. Technically, one could be brought immediately, but it usually helps to wait a few weeks to decrease the likelihood of a second non-consensus. DGG ( talk ) 17:20, 26 January 2014 (UTC)
  • Endorse There doesn't seem to be a procedural problem here. A finding of no consensus is not a supervote because it is the opposite of a definite conclusion. Andrew (talk) 22:28, 26 January 2014 (UTC)
  • Endorse No concrete evidence of a supervote. Taking it to DRV because you disagree with the outcome is discouraged if no new evidence is brought forth. Mkdw 02:26, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
  • (edit conflict) Endorse  This is a decent close, and were the refuted and empty arguments analyzed closely might justify a Keep.  The XfD nomination does not present any argument or evidence that EVENT is at issue, just a wondering out loud.  The only technical reference to EVENT is by a Keep !voter, and that !voter has added a reference to the article, so the consensus, such as it is, from both keep and delete sides, is that EVENT is not at issue.  Unscintillating (talk) 02:29, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
  • Endorse - closers should explain why they closed how they did, in any case where it ain't blatantly obvious. In this case, that it meets WP:N is an important consideration, in weighting the policy based keeps against the policy-less "I don't like it" arguments for deletion. WilyD 10:21, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
    • Thank you for articulating that, your views closely match my own. -- Y not? 15:28, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
      • Well, good on you for doing it, though it's certainly own experience that doing so makes it more likely that a DRV will suggest you closed on your own view, rather than by reading the discussion and distilling the consensus. Whether it makes a DRV any more likely, I dunno. It's probably just a spaghetti approach - if you're unhappy with how the XfD went, throw every argument at the DRV and see what sticks. WilyD 09:46, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
        • The good news is that I do not feel wounded when people bring my decisions to DRV or any other forum. The little bit of work that I do here on a volunteer basis I just try to do correctly and constructively, rather than trying to be #1 dog on wikipedia. Though I have to say, there has to be a better use of one's time than to DRV a freaking no-consensus close. Back to my day job. -- Y not? 19:33, 29 January 2014 (UTC)
  • Endorse, no consensus seems appropriate here since there is obviously, well, no consensus that the article doesn't meet the relevant inclusion guidelines. Lankiveil 04:03, 28 January 2014 (UTC).
The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it.

24 January 2014

The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it.
Mike Ciesnolevicz (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

I am requesting a deletion review. I have recently noticed my wikipedia page has been deleted after having one for roughly 6-7 years. I am not sure how this happened as i was told you need at least 3 "notable" fights to keep your page. I have fought on TV 12x, Spike TV, Fox Sports Net, My Network TV, HDNET and TSN in Canada. I am a 9x International Fight League veteran as well as 2x world champion and a 2x UFC veteran. My current website is MikeCMMA.com. I can be found on google quite easily as well as in many feature books such as "A Fighters Mind" & "Blood in the Cage." Many of my former fights are on youtube. I can be found on sherdog.com as an established veteran MMA fighter of over 10 years. I have a teaching degree from Lock Haven Univeristy where i was a member of the boxing and wrestling teams. I hold 4 blackbelts in martial arts and have trained all over the globe from Thailand to Brazil to my current home in Las Vegas.

Thank you,

Michael D. Ciesnolevicz mikecmma.com — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.173.218.206 (talk) 21:11, 24 January 2014 (UTC)

  • Thank you Michael for this request. It is quite a reasonable request. Can an admin please temporarily undelete the article for the purpose of the review? --SmokeyJoe (talk) 12:49, 25 January 2014 (UTC)
  • temporarily restored for discussion at Deletion Review DGG ( talk ) 17:21, 26 January 2014 (UTC)
  • Userfy on Request  There was a "per nom" !vote, which carried no weight, so WP:NOQUORUM is the result of the AfD.  I see large sections of unsourced content that would need to be removed if the sourcing can be found to satisfy notability.  Unscintillating (talk) 04:36, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
  • Endorse but Userfy. Closure was reasonable given what the closing admin had to work with (which wasn't much). However, the article isn't so terrible that it can't be moved into userspace or draftspace to have additional sourcing to verify the claims made by the subject. Lankiveil 04:06, 28 January 2014 (UTC).
  • Endorse and userfy - I don't find issue with the close but I also find the request for userfication to be very reasonable. ☺ · Salvidrim! · ✉ 16:08, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
  • Endorse and userfy If the claims made are valid, it seems only fair to grant the request for userfication to go forward so that sources can be provided. Dramamoose (talk) 21:28, 30 January 2014 (UTC)
The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it.

22 January 2014

The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it.
Sasha coen (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (article|XfD|restore)
31.51.97.199 (talk) 23:29, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

Page Ref. Sasha Coen. Author.

I created the page about sasha coen, but as part of the registry page, I added the name there too - at the time I thought it was the page title that I was trying to create that you were asking for, so I entered it.

As a result, it was assumed that I had created a biography. I hadn't - I am not sasha coen. I created a page about the author sasha coen. A deletion notice was added and I contacted the administrator that entered the notice. they did not make contact back and continued to delete the page.

I hope that the page can be restored as it took me a long time - as you can tell, I am not great with computers, but still made the effort. Hopefully you will too.

Thank you for your help

Clive.

  • Endorse deletion. Article was only sourced to a self-published eBook link at Amazon, and there's nothing else to be found out there to satisfy our notability guidelines. This is just a promotion campaign by an interested party or someone close to the author, going on in multiple places, see here and here. Tarc (talk) 15:11, 23 January 2014 (UTC)
  • Endorse pretty clearly part of a promotion attempt. And surely no reliable sources exist anyway. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 17:35, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

Hi S Marshall,

I added the page the same day as it was deleted. When asked for a name I thought I was been asked for the name of the page I was trying to create. I have since realised that it was a registration user name that I was been asked for. I have since corrected that by registering as intended. It is true that I only added a link to the ebook of sasha coen but that was because I couldn't find any other links and were hoping other users would flesh out the page at later dates. I could not find an amazon profile page. It is also true that I have talked about the writing style and content (genre) of the same book on forum chat. I had not realised that this would be an issue for user Tarc. As Tarc has also discovered, there is not much on the web about sasha coen. They are a gifted writer and I thought deserved recognition. I was under the impression that this is what users use wiki for. To make information pages about everything.

If Tarc had looked a little further, it might have been noted that my name is not sasha or coen. Moreover, Had a response been made to my application to Tarc when the deletion intention was first advertised, then these issues could have been rectified much sooner and with a lot less trouble

Thank you for your help and cooperation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.155.46.19 (talk) 21:14, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

  • Endorse. User has not completed the prerequisite step of discussing the matter with User:Bbb23, the administrator who deleted the page, despite claims to the contrary above, nor has he even notified them (I have done so now). Without waiving this procedural defect, I would also endorse on the merits as the article is clearly promotional and has no clean version to revert to.
    To the creator: Misplaced Pages is here to collect, and to an extent, discuss, information that has been previously been published in reliable sources. If there is not much or any such information in the public domain, it is a very good indication that the person in question should not have a Misplaced Pages page at this time. Stifle (talk) 09:09, 24 January 2014 (UTC)

hi, I replied to the user that initiated the cancellation a few minutes after he added the proposal. The reply was added in the same way as the one you are reading now so I are surprised it never reached the user. Regardless, it is evident that you have no inclination to amend the deletion order proposed by the said user so the steps taken and evidence given are all academic. It became clear very early on that there was no intention to overturn the order and were merely fulfilling the motions. I was under the false impression that wiki prided itself on users being able to present information of all types to a wider audience and other users able to add to that information in cases where information is lacking. For that to be necessary and required, the item (individual, material, theory...) is likely to be little known or difficult to research under general conditions. If the item, whatever that might be, is already thoroughly known and understood, there would be little need for a wiki page!

It is unfortunate that all of our time has been wasted. However, I thank the relevant members for taking the time to 'review' the decision made.

Kind Regards. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cdc1cdc1 (talk • contribs) 20:48, 24 January 2014 (UTC)

    • Misplaced Pages isn't a place to post absolutely everything you feel like, nor does it cover any imaginable topic. Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia which includes subjects already covered in sufficient detail by reliable sources. Just for the moment, I'm going to assume you're telling the truth: that you're "Clive" and not Sasha Coen or someone directly related to / hired by them, and that you're merely trying to get the word out about a book you liked. If that's true, Clive, please consider that your efforts aren't exactly making Sasha Coen look good, and that you've caused them some measure of embarassment through inappropriate promotion on at least 3 different websites. If you really aren't Sasha Coen, I strongly suggest not spamming their name across the web, because that's the kind of attention nobody really wants. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 05:42, 25 January 2014 (UTC)
  • Endorse. Blatant promotion. No content sourced to independent sources. Listing at AfD would be pointless. See Misplaced Pages:Alternative outlets. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 12:56, 25 January 2014 (UTC)
The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it.

21 January 2014

The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it.
}}
Lost Girl (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)

On 21 January 2014, User:JDDJS twice deleted a block of information from the Infobox Template of the Lost Girl article. The template contains the pre-existing fields of "|writer" and "|director". The fields exist in the template so that information can be added to them. User:JDDJS deleted the information in the fields because in his personal opinion the information contained in the fields did not belong in the article.

If the fields did not exist in the template, there would be no reason to add information to them. Therefore, the fields serve a purpose and this purpose has been contributed to by many editors before User:JDDJS found his way to the article and undid what others had contributed before him.

I reversed said deletion of information by User:JDDJS and he again deleted the information after it was restored (which I then, once again, restored to the article). It is my opinion that no one user has the right to undo what other contributors to Misplaced Pages articles have contributed in good faith and via means invited by Misplaced Pages. Just because editors of articles "A" "B" and "C" have not made good use of all the fields in the templates used in their articles does not mean that editors of "Z" cannot add information to the fields in the template used in theirs. Please stop User:JDDJS from continuing to vandalize the article. Thank you. Pyxis Solitary (talk) 06:23, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

  • This is not the correct venue, it's an editing dispute. The correct place is initially a discussion on the talk page of the article and if that fails then dispute resolution --86.5.93.42 (talk) 08:12, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
  • Comment Obviously this is not the place to discuss it, but Looking at the transclusions, I see 3/4 of the major shows do not have it but 1/4 do. I also see there is no discussion of when to use it in the template documentation. We do not need another round of The Template Wars, and someone interested should start a centralized discussion somewhere, DGG ( talk ) 18:43, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it.

19 January 2014

The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it.
Ritmeyer (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (restore)

This article was deleted per WP:A7. A search on google showed that the article did make a claim of notability and therefore the article does not qualify under A7. I requested the article be undeleted and my request was refused here . Op47 (talk) 15:37, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

  • Overturn and list at AFD. Article contained reasonable claim of notability, which defeats an A7 deletion. Stifle (talk) 15:59, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
  • Comment: As of this moment the text of the deleted article is still visible in the Google cache. EdJohnston (talk) 17:17, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
  • Endorse simply including the word 'prominent' isn't enough to dodge A7, especially when paired with the word 'niche' which appears to contradict it. For what it's worth, other claims in the article appear to be false, so I would consider the rest of it suspect as well. The company itself may indeed be notable, and may be a potential article subject, but restoring the former text would in no way help the encyclopedia. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 17:27, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
  • Endorse - Words such as prominent, high quality, influential, much sought after, 'high' prices in the deleted article are promotional and subjective characterization, not A7 importance/significance. Leen Ritmeyer is the only Ritmeyer for which there appears to be source information. Given the poor state of the article and the lack of online access to information on the 1930s-1970s German piano manufacturer, it's better to way for someone to come along and put together a reasonably source article. -- Jreferee (talk) 01:08, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
  • Overturn clearly a claim of notability was made. The only real issue is if it's credible. The company existed and made pianos. They aren't exactly in high demand from what I can tell. But I can't show that the claim is not credible. Further, I'd be somewhat surprised if there isn't enough RSes in paper form to meet our inclusion guidelines--reviews of pianos seems a likely thing. So not an A7 unless someone can state with authority that the claims are not credible. Certainly worth an AfD. Hobit (talk) 15:41, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
  • temporarily restored for discussion at Deletion Review DGG ( talk ) 17:19, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
  • overturn when an article like this is challenged in good faith, it's fairer to have the community decide -- which also gives a chance for the community to find sourcing. It seems reasonable that a piano company with a 40 year history might be notable,-- it depends on whether there are reviews etc. to be found. 7 yearsafo, we sometimes absurdly interpreted claim for importance as meaning that the article lead had to contain the word "important" or "notable." In recent years wemean there is material in the article that gives a good faith indication of significance, no matter how the article is worded. DGG ( talk ) 17:26, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
  • List at AfD as a contested speedy. I'm not seeing any obvious good sources, but they sell on eBay. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 07:21, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
  • Overturn and list at AFD, if there is any doubt at all with an A7, reject the speedy and deal with it another way. I don't think this'll survive AFD, but it's not clearcut enough for A7. Lankiveil 11:17, 21 January 2014 (UTC).
  • Overturn and list at AFD. Not clearly an A7, and the puffery in the text was curable. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 13:34, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
  • Endorse. Removing the puffery leaves just the opening sentence. Drmies (talk) 16:56, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
  • Comment - valid A7? Yes, I'd have done it. If there are sources, the sensible course of action is to userfy, add them, then push back to the mainspace. If there ain't, AfD is going to axe it. This seems like the wrong venue. WilyD 10:37, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
    • I view A7s as "my band that just started playing at a local bar for the first time yesterday" not "company that made real products still identified with it by brand name for 30+ years". Even ignoring the puffery, there is good reason to suspect it has a real shot at meeting our inclusion guidelines (though sources are likely all paper). That seems like something that belongs at AfD. Hobit (talk) 12:26, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
      • The article gives no indication it has any shot at meeting WP:N after a search. Most A7s are not explicitly non-notable, but read like this one "John's table company makes tables", or "We Recycle is a band from Australia". Any subject could be notable, but most aren't. There's nothing here to make one suspect there are sources. But that's neither here nor there - if there are sources to be found, the wise thing to do is find them, and render this discussion moot - otherwise, it'll get sent to AfD, which might as well be sending it to the wood chipper - it has no chance of survival. WilyD 13:08, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
  • List it at AfD. There's reasonable doubt about the A7, and "wouldn't survive an AfD" isn't a speedy deletion criterion.—S Marshall T/C 13:22, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
    • No, but "does not make an assertion of significance" is a speedy deletion criterion, and "will be deleted at AfD" is a good reason to choose an outcome other than "Send to AfD to be deleted" at DRV. If there are really any sources (I'm sceptical, but let's say), and someone is willing to put in the work to find them, then it should be userfied to that person so they can do so. This conversation is strongly suggestive that no such person exists. "Undelete, then send to AfD to redelete" is just silly (and a waste of everyone's time). WilyD 14:43, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
      • These remarks, and some others here, seem to bear rather little relationship to the WP:CSD policy statement or to the A7 criterion in particular. It really is worth reading them through from time to time. However, I realise that the document may be so badly written that it does not describe consensus decisions regarding appropriate CSD standards. If so, a substantial rewrite is overdue. Thincat (talk) 23:11, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
  • Overturn but list at AFD. This is not one of the "most obvious cases" of an article with "no indication of importance". There are several claims that, if true, are of substantial importance. Likewise, if the article has been impartially written and the statements are true (and I think this is possible), they are not puffery. Matters like this require discussion. Thincat (talk) 23:29, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
  • Endorse no claim of notability; mere puffery is insufficient. If I write an article about my goldfish and say it's a notable niche goldfish, it survives A7 in some editors' views??? We waste much time on "saving" unsourced garbage that has no claim to notability. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 07:38, 24 January 2014 (UTC)
  • Endorse, I can't find a single source. Nobody at this DR has presented a single source. Not one! Only the ebay item on auction which has just ended now, which could be digitally manipulated for all we know. I'd be more inclined to consider this request seriously if someone indicated they have sources that they could add. The article under review did not provide information required to make the article credible - names, facts, figures, ... details. None to be found. (i.e. why is it notable? who has purchased one? how many were made, etc) All we have is the org name and a year range which is extraordinarily long. If it isnt A7, it is G3 (hoax) until proven otherwise, either by sources, or by statements that can be researched. Userfy it if necessary. John Vandenberg 11:36, 25 January 2014 (UTC)
    • Wow. I apologize for being rude here, but I'd hope most long-standing admins would have a better sense of our speedy deletion criteria than this. If you were at RfA with an answer like this, you'd have little chance of passing. Please read the speedy deletion talk page (where this case is being discussed). We don't speedy delete anything, even BLPs, solely because it isn't sourced (that's for BLP prod). And while this may be a hoax (I can't find a RS on-line) there are about 10 auctions, with pictures and in many case buyers, for Ritmeyer pianos. So it certinaly isn't a blatant hoax which is what A3 requires. If you think it's a blatant hoax, I'll take a $100 bet on the issue. I'm much more than 50% certain a company named Ritmeyer produced pianos. And if you aren't a lot more than 50% sure, you shouldn't be calling it a blatant anything. Given the time frame claimed, it is likely that paper sources cover this in detail. There are lots of notable topics that the web doesn't cover. At least until we do. Hobit (talk) 14:28, 26 January 2014 (UTC)
      • Agreed it does not need to be sourced, but it does need to be credible. The company may not be a hoax (I personally would say greater than 50% chance it is real, as I have found one advert from 1957), but the article content appears to be one. 90% of it would be tagged with fact tags and removed quite promptly. The most easily falsifiable is the article states that "influential inventions within the area of piano development". That isnt credible. Who was influenced? I have access to most digitalised resources, including abstracting services not part of 'the (googlable) web', and I dont get any hits other than the above advert. I personally would have shipped it off to Afd, but we're at DR, and the only argument put forward is a bureaucratic one, with nobody even attempting to put forward any sources. I'm usually a stickler for bureaucratic processing with there is a real dispute, but I cant see how it helps here, as nobody has given any evidence that this could be a viable topic. If the author or others believe it is viable, the userifying it lets them continue working. The admin made a decent call from what I can see. Could you please link to the 10 ebay auctions you have found? John Vandenberg 15:52, 26 January 2014 (UTC)
        • My concern is that if DRV upholds something that isn't actually a speedy deletion candidate, we'll see more and more out of process deletions. It isn't an A7 or a G3 and DRV shouldn't uphold it as one. It isn't close IMO, but I realize that could be debatable. Given your resources (which I lack) it may well be there isn't anything of significance here. But sending it to AfD gives people a realistic chance to source it. There may well be someone with paper sources that would see this (again, I find it very likely a company that has been around as long as this one has reliable paper sources). There is no reason not to give it a shot at AfD. As far as auction goes this search gets most of them. (Most, but but all are on e-bay). Hobit (talk) 15:50, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
          • I think(read:hope) there are lots of people watching to prevent individual cases like this becoming justification for CSDs becoming useless. I also expect(but again read:hope) the admin made a judgement call here-it is one I cant find a reason to contradict at least. There will definitely be print sources, and it may be that they can prove significance, but i'll bet it isnt they cant back the statements in this article. That would require many extensive compendium of music history (Oxford, Cambridge, etc) all omitting the contribution of the Ritmeyer, which also happened to never file a patent. There may be some other significance, and as an inclusion I would be happy with only a factual account of a mediocre contribution to the relevant discipline if it is niche. But this looks like an ebay item description recycled as an encyclopedia article, with no sources, and time to coincide with an actual ebay listing. My alarm bells are ringing! When I search ebay, and skimming the search results you point at, I can only find items which mention the one ebay auction as a 'see also'. i.e. lots of hits, but only one item. If there are more than one item on ebay, I missed it in my initial search and also now when I've looked at your results. i.e. links to ebay items instead of search results would be great. John Vandenberg 16:39, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
  • Endorse- There's a good case that A7 applies and, even if it didn't, it's obvious that this article could not survive an AFD so undeleting it would just be process for the sake of process and a huge waste of time. Reyk YO! 04:49, 26 January 2014 (UTC)
The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it.