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Architecture Unassessed

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Archive

Problems with the article

This article is not suitable as an encyclopaedia article, as it is in violation of Misplaced Pages's Neutral Point Of View (NPOV) policy, and is written in a very non-encyclopaedic tone. In addition if it's from a website, it might be a copyright violation. Please do something to address these problems, or the article might be deleted as per Misplaced Pages's deletion policy. - ulayiti (talk) 18:46, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

Architectural landmarks erected in the country of RUS, regradless of prefixes and suffixes, must be called RUSSIAN (RUS+IAN, adjective, belonging to RUS)!

Article completely rewritten

This article was completely rewritten after the article that the above comments refer to was speedy deleted after being listed for deletion. Capitalistroadster 12:26, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

Nice work on the article. Ëvilphoenix 16:30, August 12, 2005 (UTC)

Readings

I went to the library this afternoon and had a look at the following books:

• (2003) Entry "Architecture: Kievan Rus and Russia" in Encyclopædia Britannica (Macropedia) vol. 13, 15th ed., p. 921.

The article is "Architecture", the section is called "Kievan Rus and Russia". The state is referred to as Kievan Rus, but the churches of Rus are referred to in aggregate as "Russian ecclesiastical architecture".

• William Craft Brumfield ( 2004). A History of Russian Architecture, Seattle and London: University of Washington Press. ISBN 0-295-98393-0.

Nice book, with photographs by the author. The subject is referred to in the text as "medieval Russian architecture", but the people and state of the period are called "eastern Slavs", and note "medieval Rus and subsequently Russia".

• John Fleming, Hugh Honour, Nikolaus Pevsner ( 1998). Entry "Russian Architecture" in The Penguin Dictionary of Architecture and Landscape Architecture, 5th ed., pp. 493–498, London: Penguin. ISBN 0-67-088017-5.

Under the entry "Russian Architecture". References to the subject and period in general are "Russia", "the Old Russian state", "Kievan Russia", "Transfiguration Cathedral at Chernigov (c. 1036) . . . and all other Old Russian churches . . . ", but Kievan Rus’ specifically is called "Kiev", also "the Kiev Prince". Polotsk and Smolensk are in "west Russian lands". Later references are to "Moscow's domination of Russia", "Muscovite architecture".

(Interesting quote about the Baroque period: ". . . Ukrainian Baroque has its own characteristics, however, and stylistically the interaction with Muscovy is less significant than was once thought.")

I would classify these all as post-Soviet editions of earlier writing. They seem to know that Kievan Rus’ is not the same thing as Russia, and refer to the state as Rus or Kiev, although it is also referred to descriptively as "medieval Russia". Russia is used for the name of later states, but in all three sources the architecture of Rus belongs firmly within the subject of Russian architecture. There is no subdivision of Rus architecture into Belarusian, Russian, or Ukrainian.

In the next day or two I'll propose some revisions to the article based on this, if someone else hasn't done so already. —Michael Z. 2005-11-21 00:08 Z

Nice job. Thanks. --Ghirlandajo 00:22, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

I've found a lovely image of a Russian monastery. Perhaps there's room for it in your article? Durova 00:05, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Yes!!! Of course!--Nixer 01:05, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Bepassing the dispute

Whilst I not going to get myself involved in your (to be fair quite pathetic) arguments. I would like to give the following site with excellent photos of Orthodox architecure for those who are intersted in cotributing professional information: http://www.sobory.ru/

-- Kuban kazak 15:32, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

Why only tamples and churches?

Why only tamples and churches? What about citadels, towers, palaces?--Nixer 01:02, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

BTW, why there is no "Soviet architecture" article?--Nixer 01:07, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Get to work. —Michael Z. 2005-12-14 07:24 Z

My proposal for the future of the article

I propose that this article has some radical changes. The truth is that like History of Russia, it is impossible to generalise everything into one article without having seprate articles reflecting each phase. In Russian architecture there are clear break-ups. THis site here has a feature were one can actually search through the dates when each building was built. We might be also able to obtain copyrights for several images if lucky. I propose the following strucutre: A general page (which this article can provide) Then about individual subarticles describing the individual phases of history. Now for those nationally conscious little people, there should destinct and separate subarticles for periods of history for your phase.

• So this is what we get:

1. Three general articles (maybe more) Architectures of Russia, Belarus, Ukraine
2. Broken into phases of history:

1. Kievan Rus
2. Grand Duchy of Lithuania/Halych/Muscouvian Rus (and their respecive styles)
3. Polish Lithuanian Boroque/Ukrainian Boroque/Muscovian Boroque
4. ...and so on
5. Stalinist Architecutre
6. Post-Stalinist Soviet architecture
7. Late Soviet Architecture
8. Modern Architecture of Ukraine/Russia/Belarus

1. Each subarticle talks about decorative features, Churches, Fortifications, Palaces, Terema and so on...

Here is some info on styles

--Kuban Cossack 22:23, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Unexplained tag insertion

I see that AndriyK's mission after the return to Misplaced Pages from the absence over the reasons well-known is to keep trolling this article. On one hand, this is much better than large scale moving nightmare and vote rigging which got him in trouble previously. OTOH, I see no activity from this user other than occasionally showing up here and there, run some quick but fierce edit wars just under the 3RR and disappear for another week or so. This is untenable.

The tag removal has been explained multiple times. Reasons were discussed, the article RfC was filed, users commented, MichaelZ spent hours in the library due to AndriyK's persistence with nonsense ideas. The public spoke over the issue he raised and the tag was removed.

Yet, it is restored either by himself, or others who choose to act as his proxies in his shameful quest to expunge anything Russian from everything related to Ukraine. Please care to read past discussion and clearly point out the reasons behind the tag reinsertion which were not addressed by the past discussion. I hope others will reconsider acting as AndriyK's proxies. If others have an issue after having read the past discussions and insist on tagging, please use talk to explain your POV disagreement. Same applies to AndriyK. If he has anything new to say, he is welcome to do so at the talk page. Finally, if AndriyK reinserts the tag one more time without entering his grievances at talk (taking into account past discussions) and/or his explanation will seem frivolous, I will file a specific Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Removal of POV tag from Russian architecture with an ArbCom. ArbCom cases often have unintended consequences as ArbCom members sometimes rule not only on specific issues, but more generally on the user's behavior and a block may very well be a consequences of a new arbitration. For one, it is not my intention to have AndriyK blocked, whatever stuff he dumps on me all the time. Another issue is that I would hate wasting time on this yet again. But I see no other venue to bring this article to normalcy with the tag being reinserted and the tagger's refusal to use talk. RfC was not sufficient. All kinds of dispute resolution was tried. ArbCom would be the last resort. --Irpen 08:02, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

The reseons for inserting the tag are explained in the tag itself. Please read.

The fact that you explained your personal opinion about removal of the tag does not mean that the issue is resolved. Your opponents may disagree with your personal opinion. And, in fact, this was the case.

There is no need to say anything new here. The problem that I pointed out half a year ago is still not solved.

I propose the solution, you did not accept it. You do not propose any acceptable alternative solution.

The only way out is to keep the tag until somebody proposes an acceptable solution for both sides.

Please read once more what another user wrote to you Talk:Russian_architecture/Archive#Wikipedia_Rules_and_Regulations --AndriyK 08:26, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

There was a vote, a poll which culminated in DROPPING the issue permanentely Talk:Russian architecture/Archive#Survey Find it there. As of then the MAJORITY of wikipedians are AGAINST any more disputes. They are FINE as it is. If you want a another poll start one here and ask it Do you see any point continuing the dispute between AndriyK's POV (and his maidan goonies) and the rest of wikipedian society? Extend the notification to the whole Portal:Architecture and go for it. It is not an issue anymore wether the buildings will be mentioned, previous poll but a fat tochka on that it is wether your POV-pushing continues. --Kuban Cossack 10:53, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Read what you moved in archive Talk:Russian_architecture/Archive#Wikipedia_Rules_and_Regulations --AndriyK 10:58, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Makes no difference to the stance. If I was you I would write Ukrainian architecture and then simply interlink them into this article that way there will be no problem, but of course how many useful articles have you written (sorry but your contributions page is so full of worthless conflicts that it really is impossible to filter) or can you ever right them? --Kuban Cossack 11:02, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

I have to explain you once more. There is a unsolved problem with the article Russian architecture.

Whether i article on Ukrainian architecture or not is my choice.

I tried to write articles here, but your troll friends prevent me from doing it.--AndriyK 11:25, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

You tried? Really? Молодец, садись -енко/-чюк, пять. :) Although I find that if one makes writing articles a priority and leaving the policing of wikipedia to the admins which is clearely the opposite of your case, then at least people can have an opinion of you as a valuable contributor as opposed to a troll. Experience shows that useful contributors are more successful at gaining favouralbe outcomes on disputes. If I were you I'd reregister a new account and start all over. User:AnriyK's reputation is a shame of the Ukrainian society and even if you start writing articles now there is little to salvage. Стыд и срам.--Kuban Cossack 13:44, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

I see AndriyK reinserted the tag. Everyone, please do not remove it or alter it in any way until the issue is referred to ArbCom. I will try to be as fast as I can. --Irpen 19:03, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Page protection

There has been no actual change to the content of this article since before the last page protection on March 31. Every single edit since then has been to either (1) insert or (2) remove the NPOV tag. Until this gets cleared up on the talk page for good, I don't feel like I'm stopping any earth-shattering developments by protecting the page. (ESkog) 22:04, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

{{editprotected}}

I think an edit needs to be made. In that ludicrous looking POV tag it currently reads:

it describes the structures that were build by ancestors of the present-day Greeks and Ukrainians in Kievan Rus...

Is it possible to have that replaced with:

it describes the structures that were built by ancestors of the present-day Greeks and Ukrainians in Kievan Rus...

Thanks. Telex 10:19, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Done abakharev 14:39, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

unexplained tag

A single user persisting with a nonsense claim is no reason to destroy excellent articles with ridiculous tags. When whoever who thinks that the Earth is flat tags the Earth article because it represents the "Earth is round POV", the tag would similarly be removed without discussion.

If AndriyK can come up with new reasons on why the article is not NPOV, he should bring them at talk. His old points prompted much discussion, much research through the most authoritative literature and were rejected based on that as well as the vote. Until new points are brought up, I am removing the tag. --Irpen 02:42, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

I do not think that the dispute is as obvious as about the shape of the Earth (see, for instance, ). I would not remove the tag without discussion if I would you. It would be much better to find a compromise solution.--Mbuk 23:01, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

The dispute is settled, if you look in the archive, all of the points raised by the opposing party were overturned. I propose to unlock the article and permanentely purge the tag. --Kuban Cossack 10:10, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

A dispute is settled if

• a decission that satisfies both sides is found or
• there is a decission by some authority (ArbCom in the present case) that is compulsory for both sides even if they do not agree with it.

This was not the case. Therefore, the present dispute has not been resolved yet. Let's take the next step.--AndriyK 08:10, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

To Irpen: there is no new reasons. The old dispute has not been resolve yet. Please note that removing the tag (and even locking the page without it) does not resolve the dispute. Let's follow WP:DR.--AndriyK 08:10, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Mediation?

Lets try, to resolve the dispute by mediation. To see how many people agree to participate, please add your name below.--AndriyK 08:13, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

I would like to resolve the dispute and will particpate in the mediation process

1. AndriyK 08:13, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

• Unassessed Architecture articles
• Unknown-importance Architecture articles