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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by HelenOnline (talk | contribs) at 13:57, 12 April 2014 (→User:Nathan121212 diff: cmt). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Important notice: The topic of this article may be the subject of sub judice concerns in South Africa due to the ongoing criminal trial. All editors should exercise caution in editing or commenting on the topic of this article. Editors in South Africa may also wish to consider any personal legal implications. Please remember that legal information provided on Misplaced Pages cannot substitute for the advice of a licensed professional.

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It is requested that an image or photograph of Reeva Steenkamp be included in this article to improve its quality. Please replace this template with a more specific media request template where possible. Wikipedians in South Africa may be able to help! The Free Image Search Tool or Openverse Creative Commons Search may be able to locate suitable images on Flickr and other web sites.

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Title

Why is the article's title in italics? Is there some reason for this? Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 05:54, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

The Template:Infobox court case used automatically italicizes the article title, suggesting the name of the article should be the official name of the case (The State vs Oscar Pistorius). Otherwise, add "|italic title=no" to the list of infobox parameters. HelenOnline 07:00, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

OK, thanks. Done. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 19:19, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

Image

Administrator User:Ronhjones has marked for deletion the image of Oscar Pistorius arriving at court the first day of the trial on the grounds it can reasonably be expected to available as a free image. I contest that on his Talk page, specifically asking him why he thinks a free replacement can reasonably be expected to be available. Meanwhile I have placed a template on this page requesting such an image on the off chance that one of us ordinary citizens managed to get anywhere near Pistorius that day. Thoughts welcome. Coat of Many Colours (talk) 13:40, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

The image was deleted by User:Future Perfect at Sunrise on the grounds that the use of non-free images from press agencies is not permitted when the image itself is not the subject of critical commentary. Since commenting on the image necessarily involves entering POV territory ("nervously biting his lip" etc.), we will have to wait the 120 years whatever for the image to come out of copyright. Note that the grounds for deletion was not User:Ronhjones's inventive anti-heraclitian grounds. I have updated non-free content guidance to clarify the issue and I've changed the image request above to one for an image of Reeva Steenkamp.

Reeva's article has an infobox reducing her to a collection of statistics, the colour of her hair, of her eyes, her height to the nearest half inch, even the coordinates to the nearest second of arc of the location where she met her death, but no image, a situation which ordinary people of normal sensibility must surely deplore. A number of other projects, such as the Russian Misplaced Pages, which carries an image ru:Файл:Reeva-Steenkamp.jpg uploaded by ru:Участник:Odessey on 15 February 2013 from David Smith's 14 February Guardian piece, allow an image while acknowledging the image as non-free use, nevertheless an outright assault on Getty Image's commercial interests of course. How fortunate we all are that the careful and assiduous attentions (if sometimes rather deep and opaque to mere mortals of limited time spans) of master editors such as User:Ronhjones make that unlikely on the US wiki.

Coat of Many Colours (talk) 12:11, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

Neutality of article?

The entire article is written as a slanted bias that Pistorius had, in fact, murdered his girlfriend. This trial is still on going, and Pistorius has not yet been found guilty of these crimes. For instance, the first paragraph that OPENS THE ARTICLE to discussion reads as follows: "In the early morning of Thursday, 14 February 2013, Steenkamp was shot and killed by Pistorius at his Pretoria home." it is immediately followed by a source ( http://edition.cnn.com/2013/02/19/world/africa/south-africa-pistorius-affadavit/index.html ), which is, in fact, opposite of this view, and is Postorius' affidavit affirming His innocence, and request for bail.

Can this article please be reviewed and corrected for neutrality? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.62.5.27 (talk) 08:17, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

 Not done Pistorius has admitted to shooting and killing Steenkamp in his affidavit and in his trial. Nowhere in the article does it state he murdered her which is what the trial is meant to establish. HelenOnline 08:24, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

If we were to ignore the known fact that Pistorius admitted to killing her (implying it could have been someone else altogether), this article would not only be biased it would be extremely misleading. HelenOnline 08:42, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

Yes, of course Helen is quite right. Pistorius said in his affidavit he had killed Reeva. The trial is about his culpability in that event, whether he was guilty of premeditated murder.

For myself I plan to keep an eye on what's added here. Basically I just want to archive all citations (as the French do). I don't really want to add content to ongoing developments, not really believing we should be doing this. But if there's anything plainly POV I shall certainly intervene, as I'm sure Helen will as well. For example I intervened to change "heard a woman's screams" to "heard what were described as a woman's screams". But I should warn you that it is sometimes very difficult to control POV in ongoing events. You can be sure that there will be experienced editors here doing their best. Coat of Many Colours (talk) 12:48, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

I myself am steering clear of the day by day accounts but felt the gist of the opening statements needed to be included for context. Ultimately we will need a summary of important evidence, possibly noted in the final judgement. HelenOnline 12:55, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

Yes, agree. However if editors do make good faith day by day edits they ought to be kept, at least until a WP:BOLD rewrite, which incidentally I'm very happy for you to provide if you're volunteering. I shall concentrate on citations. Coat of Many Colours (talk) 16:06, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

We'll see, that could be far off still. :) HelenOnline 16:39, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

Name of court case

The official name of this court case is The State vs Oscar Leonard Carl Pistorius. See this PDF of a court filing here: www.pod702.co.za/Eyewitnessnews/docs/130219oscar_papers.pdf. (This is a PDF file, so I do not know how to make it appear as a "link" that actually "links".) It is merely common everyday convenience, simplification, and abbreviation to refer to this case as "State vs Pistorius". I made this change to the introduction, and someone changed it back. So, if we want to use the term "officially known as", we need to use the official name of The State vs Oscar Leonard Carl Pistorius. If we want to use the name "State vs Pistorius", we need to describe it with some word other than "official" (perhaps, "commonly known as"). Any thoughts? Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 17:14, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

See this Misplaced Pages article, for a similar example: O. J. Simpson murder case. It states: "The O. J. Simpson murder case (officially the People of the State of California vs. Orenthal James Simpson) was a criminal trial held at the Superior Court in Los Angeles County, California, ... ". It does not state that the official name is "State vs. Simpson" (which is what it would commonly be referred to as). Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 17:18, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

The court "roll" presented in the lead as a reference ( does not state that the official name of the case is "State vs Pistorius". That court roll itself is also using an abbreviated form of the official name for convenience and simplification. Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 17:41, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

We don't need to use a different word, we can just leave it out. HelenOnline 18:11, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. However, I think that putting an administrative case number is silly; that is trivial information of no import – or interest – whatsoever. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 21:22, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

Linking to day-by-day media coverage without necessarily adding content?

First of all I am premising that media coverage of the trial is itself a topic worthy of encyclopaedic coverage. The article has been exemplary I think in providing this, Helen's recent edit on a piece by Anton Harber especially valuable.

I posit this scenario: in years to come readers may be curious to see how contemporary media recorded the events at the time. This of course is something that we can expect academic departments at universities, amongst others, to engage in. But not everyone of course has access to the specialist databases of academia and the like. Misplaced Pages can provide a valuable role here, especially because its citation models support archiving (using, for example, WebCite or Wayback).

I've been trying to think of a way of recording this even when there is no content added for a particular day (and in any case even when content is added the number of citations that can be added is limited to perhaps three or four if the tail of citations is not going to intrude on legibility). In my sandboxes linked here I have been experimenting with a table, but that doesn't really strike me as very successful.

Ideas welcome. Recording social media a huge topic I would like to see someone with the requisite programming skills initiate on Misplaced Pages as well. Coat of Many Colours (talk) 02:35, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

Opening sentence

The opening sentence of this article currently states: "The trial of Oscar Pistorius for the murder of Reeva Steenkamp (The State vs Oscar Pistorius) ... ". However, I don't think that the trial is simply for the murder alone. I thought that they (the authorities) had aggregated several other charges all into one trial (some gun charges, etc.). No? If so, perhaps the intro sentence can be reworded? Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 18:31, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

The trial is just for the murder, though, per South African law, they may find him guilty of a lesser offence if it is decided that he is not guilty of the murder. Does this help?123.2.223.96 (talk) 09:37, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

I understand the trial is for four separate charges, although murder is the main one. HelenOnline 10:27, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

Joseph is right, but I personally don't think it necessary to add the other counts into the opening sentence, or indeed in the lead. They're mentioned in the opening sentences of the "Trial" section. However if Joseph wants to mention them in the lead, I shan't quibble. Coat of Many Colours (talk) 10:41, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. But, actually, I was thinking the exact opposite. I am not saying that we should add the other four (minor) charges into the lead. I am saying that we should remove the murder charge from the lead. The words "the trial for the murder of Reeva Steenkamp" – when they are in the lead ... and in the very first sentence, no less – gives the reader a false impression that this is "just" a murder trial. Clearly, murder is the most important charge. But, it is really not a trial "for the murder of RS". In actuality, it is a trial for the commission of several crimes (including the murder of RS). I just think the present wording – especially within the very first sentence – is quite misleading to the reader. Thoughts? Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 16:16, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

Another thought. If all of the (alleged) crimes occurred on the same date within one incident (i.e., while in the commission of the murder), then I don't think it would be much of an issue. The commission of any crime typically involves several lesser ancillary crimes. For example, if I break into someone's house and murder them, that one incident involves many crimes: murder, burglary, gun charges, assault, robbery, etc. But, in the Oscar Pistorius case, I believe that they are talking about several different incidents that occurred over the course of several weeks (months?) that had nothing whatsoever to do with the night of the murder. For example, several weeks before the murder, he (allegedly) discharged a gun in the middle of some restaurant. That is a totally separate incident, in time and place, having no relation whatsoever to the murder incident. I believe there are other separate incidents as well. So, in essence, the State is saying: he committed such and such crime in Incident #1; a few days later, he committed several different crimes in Incident #2; and then on February 14, he committed a separate Incident #3, which was a murder. I don't think it's correct (or fair to the readers) to clump four different crimes in four different incidents all under the umbrella of "the murder of RS". And certainly not in the lead; much less, in the article's very first introductory words. Thoughts? Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 16:27, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

I think we have to say what the trial is for in the lead. I was ok with just including murder but I think you have a point. We should probably add gun-related charges. If he is found not guilty of murder (or culpable homicide) and found guilty of other gun-related charges then the article would make more sense retrospectively. HelenOnline 16:31, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. Any clarification is helpful. Even if it's a very generic statement along the lines of "trial for the murder of RS and several gun-related offenses" (or whatever). Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 16:36, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

I concur with this change. For reference, the charges are listed in full here.--Carwil (talk) 19:03, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

I agree. The change looks good. Thanks to the editor who made the change. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 20:25, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

Good faith WP:BOLD "Event of Killing" section

This was a verbatim transcript of Pistorius' testimony relating to the killing itself. I've blanked it. It may well have a place in an after the event WP:BOLD rewrite of the "Trial" section, but not for now for multiple reasons including WP:WEIGHT and WP:NOTNEWS. For the same reasons we didn't allow a verbatim quote of Pistorius' bail application, and the same holds now. Coat of Many Colours (talk) 12:05, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

Paddy Power

There was a Paddy Power advert involving betting on the Oscar Pistorius trial - it is currently the most complained about advert in history. It has been included on the Paddy Power page; would it be relevant to include it here? I see there is already a section on the trial's coverage in media: would it perhaps fit there? Bilorv (talk) 19:23, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

Don't see why not. I saw it, but didn't know it had become the most complained advert in history (that's what makes it notable, so be sure to add a citation). Go ahead. Coat of Many Colours (talk) 22:41, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

Hi Bilorv again. I've just been looking at your links. Warmly support your idea. If you don't, I will. I'll give you a few days to get your edit in. What an amazing story! Thanks for bringing it up. I'll archive your sources for you if you don't know how to do that. Coat of Many Colours (talk) 23:17, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

I agree it should be included in the media section and will do it when I have the time if nobody else has done it by then. HelenOnline 08:06, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

User:Nathan121212 diff

I was really hoping we wouldn't have to deal with edits like this. It's plainly partisan and I have reverted it on neutral point of view grounds, but now another editor User:Dodger67 has restored it with the edit comment looks like a neutral description, the writer doesn't comment at all. But editors commenting is another issue altogether (original research), what is at stake here is the bias of the edit and it's clear it's total fail on that ( at the least we need "Death" Nel's cross examination of Botha and Pistorius)

I'm going to revert again, and after that recuse myself. I volunteered my time here, but it was on the understanding that I wouldn't involve myself with edit wars and the like. Coat of Many Colours (talk) 23:04, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

I'm new to this article, actually been trying to avoid it. I don't understand how an edit that consists only of "A said this then B said that" backed by solid sources, is not neutral. I'm outta here, I was somehow hoping this article might not be toxic, but I must have been really naive. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 05:25, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Somebody is going to have to update this article on the progress of the trial. Unfortunately this will not be me. Nathan121212 (talk) 06:42, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

WP:WEIGHT, WP:BALANCE and WP:IMPARTIAL would be good places to start understanding. Coat of Many Colours (talk) 10:56, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

I don't see how Nathan121212's edit is partisan. Their cross examination came later, and presumably that is why it has not been included yet. That is one problem with daily news-like updates which I am steering clear of unless I see an obvious error or omission. All the evidence ultimately needs to be pulled together in a sensible way which can only be done after the judge has delivered their verdict. I expect the closing statements and the final judgement to highlight the most important points for us. HelenOnline 08:05, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

No, Helen. Ducks quack and I don't know what partisans do (part?) but it was parting all right. Pistorius began his testimony after Botha was cross-examined and media all reported that Botha made significant concessions. Moreover the edit should have indicated that the other state pathologist concurred with the testifying state pathologist, and that Botha was working only from photographs and was not present at the original autopsy. Finally, while I don't think we should be doing news edits here, we can at least insist that such good faith edits that do find their way here should be up to date.

But yes, I entirely agree with the rest of it. Coat of Many Colours (talk) 10:46, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

One way to avoid such problems would be to ban articles about ongoing trials, i.e. WP only has articles about trials that are over and done with. Short of such a ban, editors should try to be more exact and not say POV when they actually meant UNDUE -the difference really does matter. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 13:20, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

I think the assumption of bad faith ("WP:NPOV. Plainly partisan.") is uncalled for here. It has also discouraged a relatively new African editor, something Misplaced Pages is in very short supply of. If you feel the section is unbalanced, then balance it or tag it or discuss it on the talk page. Repeatedly removing the whole edit on supposed NPOV grounds is not the best way to improve the article which now has no coverage of the defence's evidence whatsoever. HelenOnline 13:57, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

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