This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Sphilbrick (talk | contribs) at 16:08, 21 April 2014 (→Clarification request: Rich Farmbrough: Remove, after copying to case file and case talk). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Amendment request: Rich Farmbrough

Initiated by Rich Farmbrough, 04:22, 13 April 2014 (UTC).

Case affected

Rich Farmbrough arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)

Clauses to which an amendment is requested

1. Remedy 2
2. Motion 2

List of users affected by or involved in this amendment

• Rich Farmbrough (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)

Confirmation that the above users are aware of this request

Information about amendment request

• Strike motion 2
• Modify Remedy 2

Statement by Rich Farmbrough

The previous arbitration case defined an automaton tool in principle 3.1

An automation tool is a technology designed to facilitate making multiple similar edits that would be unduly time-consuming or tedious for a human editor to perform manually.

A "remedy" was passed (Remedy 2)

Rich Farmbrough is indefinitely prohibited from using any automation whatsoever on Misplaced Pages....

Presumably, since the drafting arbitrator had defined "automation tool", and since the initial complaint was that automation tools had been used in a way that caused issues disruption, by making multiple similar edits, automation tools is what is meant here. The actual wording is overboard and unenforceable.

For this reason I request that:

Request 1

The text of the first sentence of remedy 2 be forthwith changed to:

Rich Farmbrough is indefinitely prohibited from using any automation tool whatsoever on Misplaced Pages to make multiple similar edits.

Request 2

A, hopefully unintended, side effect of is my inability to archive my talk page, (possibly) to create lists of articles for people to work on and make other perfectly innocuous changes. Therefore I request the following to be added to Remedy 2.

This shall not apply to pages in Rich Farmbrough's own User; And User talk: area.

I note that a similar request was turned down two years ago as being "too soon." I hope this no longer applies.

Request 3

Motion 2 (which has been described by arbitrators as "draconian") was introduced in somewhat heated circumstances. I had mis-clicked on a tool I was using to compile lists and prepare text and made two "automated edits". Much ABF followed, together with many unfounded accusations and threats to bring out the ban-hammer. Nonetheless, the existing remedies were quite sufficient for a one-month block to be enacted. Given this the imposition of an additional editing restriction, especially one as broad reaching as this seems pointless.

Motion 2 has been subject to much abuse, resulting in a years block over an edit that added references to a page, but caused an error due to the wholly manual omission of a "/". It was even suggested that editing the page to insert the missing "/" constituted automated editing.

Neither this, nor the subsequent request for AE, nor any other complaint based on the Motion 2 have had anything to do with "making multiple similar edits" - the effect has been not to prevent disruption but to create disruption.

Moreover the Motion forbids such simple tasks as cutting and pasting, making even raising this request sanctioanble. I have given elsewhere examples of perfectly normal, not say essential, editing techniques which are banned by this Motion 2. I will repeat them here if requested.

So request 3 is:

Strike Motion 2

@Beeblebrox. I think you confuse me with someone else. With the possible exception of the series of edits correcting the my own spelling error "Vertebrate zoology" to "Vertebrate Zoology", for which I apologized profusely and was blocked for a month two years ago, no-one has even suggested that I have done the type of multiple edits that allegedly caused disruption.

You might also want to look at some of the other parts of the case. For example this edit was considered a reason to remove my admin bit. And yet you can "sigh" in your edit summary with no consequences.

All I am trying to achieve here, is to restore sanity to the editing restrictions, not to remove them, however flawed they are. I can see no way these requested changes can harm the project, even if the manifest WP:ABF were justified.

I would really appreciate being treated in a courteous manner, and have the issues addressed, rather than coded and not so coded insults.

However, I will make an additional effort to move the dialogue forward: Suggest, please, an editing task which I could take on which would not violate Motion 2?

All the best, Rich Farmbrough, 21:59, 13 April 2014 (UTC).

@Newyorkbrad, most certainly. All the best, Rich Farmbrough, 12:53, 19 April 2014 (UTC).

@Roger Davies It's not nice to say that there were problems with my bots. If you look at the workshop even my most vociferous critic said "His bot edits (Helpful Pixie Bot mainly) generally fall under a), both authorized and correct. "

There are no "findings" relating to errors in bot edits, or indeed to any errors.

All the best, Rich Farmbrough, 14:34, 19 April 2014 (UTC).

@Beeblebrox I just read your comment again. I think that the point of the sanctions is supposed to be to protect the encyclopaedia. The idea that the sanctions themselves are important for their own sake is a very un-wiki idea. If the sanctions are only being perpetuated because it is believed that I have, will or want to break them, it is a bad case of the tail wagging the dog.

All the best, Rich Farmbrough, 14:40, 19 April 2014 (UTC).

Statement by Pine on the amendment request

Without wading into the details of Rich's motion I am hoping Arbcom can come up with a solution that will eliminate the need for constant supervision of Rich's situation, and reduce the frequency of trips to arbitration and arbitration enforcement pages. I think the original sanctions were intended to prevent disruption but if they have become an obstacle to Rich being a non-disruptive contributor and are frequently discussed at great length on arbitration and arbitration enforcement pages then I think it's time for a change. --Pine 07:01, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

• This is going to reveal that I haven't researched deeply into Rich's case beyond seeing how much text it has produced over the years, but wouldn't it be easy to have an arbitration remedy that prohibits disruptive automated editing, and leave the enforcement of that to the discretion of AE, ANI, and BASC? --Pine 07:12, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

• WormTT's ideas are similar to what I have in mind after looking more at Rich's requests. ArbCom could specifically discuss using cut, copy, paste, replace, spellcheck, and replace all tools that don't involve bot work, and consider making an exception for Rich's userspace. Restrictions on other bot or automated activity outside of Rich's userspace would remain. Rich would need to be very careful that any automated work intended for his userspace doesn't leak into other areas. --Pine 01:59, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
• I have added other comments about Rich's situation under the clarification request. --Pine 06:55, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

Statement by {yet another user}

{Other editors are free to comment on this amendment as necessary. Comments here should be directed only at the above proposed amendment.}

Clerk notes

This section is for administrative notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Arbitrator views and discussion

• Here's what you are (deliberately?) not getting: The "too soon" response is not just meant to say that time needs to pass, it means that you need to spend some time where you are unblocked, actively editing, and not doing anything that could possibly be interpreted as violating or testing the boundaries of your current sanctions. So, yeah, still too soon for my taste. Beeblebrox (talk) 18:12, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
• Just thinking out loud here, what would be the downside of exempting Rich's own userspace from the restriction? (Actually, I can think of one myself: that Rich would create buggy articles in userspace and then port them to mainspace. Rich, can you assure us you wouldn't do that?) Newyorkbrad (talk) 02:54, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

• More or less what you said there. IT's been a longstanding area of concern, and although that would be a good place to start loosening restrictions now is not a good time to be doing that. NativeForeigner 22:44, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

• Speedily dismiss as essentially duplicating the clarification request. AGK 10:16, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
• Rich's sanctions were put in place to stop the past issues whilst retaining the editor. They were draconian and understandably so, but they haven't worked. We've now got two options, give up and block indefinitely or clarify the sanctions so that they keep the problems from re-occurring, whilst also being something Rich can work within. I spent a while trying to think of how best to phrase it, but simply put this motion was pretty much the solution I would have come up with. It's clear what we are currently referring to as "automation":
  1) Numerous similar edits across multiple pages - i.e. traditional "bot" editing
  2) Non-trivial find and replace across a single page - i.e. any find and replace that would require regex involvement. Also, "find and replace all" will fall under this. Each replacement should be checked manually.
  3) Any other scripted manipulations of text, either directly performed on-wiki or performed off-wiki and moved on.
  We were never just looking at number 1, so I'd deny Rich's first request outright. Regarding the userspace exemption, this would instantly sort the below clarification request. It's not generally an unreasonable request and I would be amenable to it in the future - possibly after 6 months of good editing. The very existence of the clarification request below does not give me sufficient faith that it would not be abused at the moment, so I would deny Rich's second request for the time being. Finally, motion 2, per my previous comments - is not something I'd be willing to remove at the moment. Worm(talk) 10:22, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

• By what measure, Dave, hasn't the restriction worked? The main page hasn't been tagged uncategorised recently; the boards aren't filled with people complaining; the bots aren't re-running to fix earlier errors (and introduce new ones). The lack of high-speed disruption looks pretty good to me,  Roger Davies 11:03, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

  We have two clarification requests, multiple emails and discussions in other fora regarding Rich within 3 weeks of his block expiring. That spells "something not right" to me. That said, I can't see any better solution. Worm(talk) 11:09, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

• The notion that someone is only able to archive their talk page by running a custom bot beggars belief. In a nutshell, the issue here is that Rich appears incapable of being completely satisfied with anything unless he has automated it. Summarily dismiss,  Roger Davies 11:03, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Hi, Pine. The lesson of Rich's history, I'm afraid, is that no matter how much care he is asked to exercise, this stuff will leak into user space. The problem, for me, with the search-and-replace that triggered this was that he made a search, without appreciating that it contained a wildcard, which had unintended consequences. He then saved without review. This typifies the problems of the past and is precisely the reason why this restriction is so strict.  Roger Davies 06:10, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Not necessarily a "custom" bot; could Rich permissibly sign up for any of the archiving bots? Newyorkbrad (talk) 15:39, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
    • Frankly, Brad, signing up for third-party archiving has never been covered by this restriction. What Rich is asking for here is to run his own custom automated archiving. If anyone has the energy to find it, he has requested this before (and been denied).  Roger Davies 06:10, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
    • My own talk page has 32 archives, all of which I managed to create without any sort of automated tool. Beeblebrox (talk) 16:58, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
• Decline. T. Canens (talk) 16:59, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
• Decline, but allow Rich to use a bot to archive his talk page. I can't imagine how permitting him to do that could a. lead to disruption and b. be contentious. Salvio 17:23, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

• Salvio I presume you mean a third-party bot?  Roger Davies 06:10, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

• Yes. If Rich wants to use a bot such as Cluebot III to archive his talk page, then I say he should be allowed to do so. If he, on the other hand, wants to run his own bot for that purpose, then, no, that's not what I had in mind. Salvio 12:46, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

• Decline but note that Rich is encouraged to use Cluebot III or equivalent third party bot as an archiving tool. NativeForeigner 22:48, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
• Decline GorillaWarfare (talk) 05:55, 19 April 2014 (UTC)