Talk:Assault weapons legislation in the United States

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--Lightbreather (talk) 00:29, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

Coatrack?

This article was created and filled with content only about the United States, while claiming to be about worldwide bans. The article was populated with only US-centric information on the day it was created, with essentially zero further development of the worldwide component since then. This strikes me as a Coatracking. It has NO coverage that is not found in the existing US-specific ban articles, thus it merely repeats US specific information found more fully elsewhere in wikipedia, without adding a single scintilla of new information. Coatrack. Anastrophe (talk) 18:58, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

Actually, it was just about U.S. assault weapons bans (active, expired, and proposed) until about Aptil 14, when another editor added a U.K. section with no content. Rather than war with that editor, I changed the lead. Honestly, although other countries have banned or otherwise regulated firearms, I know of no other country that referred/refers to their actions as assault weapons bans (though perhaps when referring to U.S. actions/proposals, since the U.S. does). Do you? Lightbreather (talk) 20:26, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

If that is the case, then there is simply no need for this article. Assault weapons ban should be a disambig to the two extant articles, Federal assault weapons ban, and the failed 2013 ban attempt. Anastrophe (talk) 20:40, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

I agree that is one option. Another is to develop the state, county, and municipal sections of this article so that readers who want to learn about AWBs can read about them here, and not have to dig through other articles - as they do now. There could be other options, too. Maybe individual articles re the AWBs passed in Connecticut, Maryland, New York, etc. - like the California AWB of 1989. Honestly, until very recently, if you Googled or did a Misplaced Pages search on "assault weapons ban," one might get the impression that the only one there ever was was the federal one that expired in 2004. Lightbreather (talk) 20:50, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

Until there's actual content in place that's not a duplicate of the two extant articles, I'd say disambig is the way to go. For that matter, since this is an umbrella title, it could stay a disambig and merely also point to articles on state bans, etc. Anastrophe (talk) 16:43, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

I still have yet to see any content in this article that is unique to this article. All information in it is covered in other articles. That means that it should instead by a disambig page, otherwise, it's a WP:Coatrack. Can we agree to change this into a disambig? Anastrophe (talk) 21:35, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

This article is very poorly written. It is just a list of antigun talking points and the reader leaves with no idea of what the point of the article is supposed to be, let alone an explanation of what an assault weapon ban is.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 20:00, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

Assault weapons ban - please stop

Sue, re this recent edit on the "Assault weapons ban" article.

The edit summary says, "Makes more sense now. And is in line with Misplaced Pages policies," but what it appears to be is a mass reversion of everything I did after Mike S. 1. added some material to it yesterday and 2. removed the hatnote or whatever that's called. (Mass reversion except for date= that you change to year= and month= - That was new and I have no problem with it.)

So, you wiped out everything I wrote, and misrepresented what you did in your edit summary.

Notice that I did not just revert what Mike added. I studied it carefully and edited it. He and I had a good conversation today - no hard feelings. Why do you insist on following me around and reverting my edits? What you've reverted that article to is not factual; it misrepresents what the source says.

Please, please stop. And please leave me alone - no more WP:HOUNDING, please! --Lightbreather (talk) 23:06, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

Merger proposal

I propose that:

Gun control after the Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting#New York be merged into Assault weapons ban#New York
Gun control after the Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting#Connecticut be merged into Assault weapons ban#Connecticut
Gun control after the Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting#Maryland be merged into Assault weapons ban#Maryland

leaving behind the Gun control after the Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting#State actions summary section.

Since the assault weapons bans in these states pre-date the Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting, the content in the related "Gun control after" article sections can easily be explained in the context of "Assault weapons ban" article, and the "Assault weapons ban" article is of a reasonable size that the merging of "Gun control after" will not cause any problems as far as article size or undue weight is concerned. Also, god forbid, if another mass shooting sets off another national debate about assault weapons bans, we won't need to start another "Gun control after..." article.

Until recently, if a reader did a Misplaced Pages search on the term "assault weapons ban" he/she might get the impression that the only one that ever existed was the federal ban of 1994-2004. That reader would have to dig and click through to numerous articles to try to find info about state bans - and much of that in tabular format. The Assault weapons ban article lets the reader read about the larger topic in one place, without all that digging around. This is why people go to encyclopedia's in the first place. Lightbreather (talk) 16:34, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

Support. (proposer) For reasons given when proposal/discussion was started. Lightbreather (talk) 16:34, 27 April 2014 (UTC)
Oppose: This is precisely what a disambiguation page is for. As it stands, this article is completely unencyclopedic: it claims to be about assault weapons ban, but instead is merely a fluffed up list - it does not in any way describe what an assault weapon ban is. Anastrophe (talk) 18:28, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

"As it stands...": The article is start-class and still being actively developed. It has the same potential to be an article specifically about a certain kind of gun law as the articles Concealed carry in the United States and Open carry in the United States. By my count, not one of the 19 sources already cited in this start-class article are duplicated in:

Gun control after the Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting
Gun laws in the United States by state
Gun laws in Connecticut
Gun laws in Hawaii
Gun laws in Maryland
Gun laws in Massachusetts
Gun laws in New Jersey
Gun laws in New York

Though two are used in Roberti-Roos Assault Weapons Control Act of 1989, and nine are used in the Federal AWB article. Lightbreather (talk) 19:29, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

Different references do not a unique article make. The purpose of an encyclopedia article on assault weapon bans should be to explain what the subject of the article is. Aside from the tautologous first sentence of the article, it does not in any way explain what an assault weapon ban it, it merely iterates through existing bans, which are all covered in other articles. There is no benefit to the reader in duplicating content; it is encyclopedic to direct the reader to the real articles. Thus, expand disambig, eliminate this article, since it offers no explanation of the subject. Anastrophe (talk) 19:56, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

There is content in this article that is unique to this article, and I plan to continue to develop it. For example compare Concealed carry in the United States when it was first created in November 2004 to today, in 2014. That's all I'm going to say on the matter for today. Lightbreather (talk) 20:15, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

Proposal: rename

Since (as I've just learned) there is already a disambig page for Assault weapons ban, and there is no content in this article that encyclopedically describes an assault weapon ban, this article should instead by renamed to List of assault weapons bans. There still remains no content in this article that is unique - that is not already covered more fully in each of the respective articles it should list, rather than duplicate (every entry has a 'main' or 'see also', which is what belongs in a list). Anastrophe (talk) 17:55, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

Oppose. Though I'd support deleting the disambig page. Lightbreather (talk) 18:15, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

Rationale? The disambig page should be expanded, this should be converted into a list. This meets the needs of directing readers to the correct place to get the encyclopedic information they are looking for. With no unique content, this article is merely a duplication of information.Anastrophe (talk) 18:19, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

For the same reasons given in the preceding discussion "Merger proposal" started earlier today, esp. in paragraph that states "Until recently..." If you reply to that there, I'll discuss it. Lightbreather (talk) 18:24, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

RfC: Is "Assault weapons ban" an appropriate title for this article?

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Is "Assault weapons ban" an appropriate title for this article? (FWIW: It is the title that it was created with.) Lightbreather (talk) 21:14, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

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Survey

Support. (author) It's what they're called by a preponderence of WP:V, WP:RS, as well as the majority of the general populace. Lightbreather (talk) 21:14, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

Support. Per author, and common sense. Thenub314 (talk) 21:16, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

Oppose. Per the Lead written by the Author, its not just about bans. The article is about gun control laws (get it, "legislation") concerning the identification and definition of certain firearms and then the steps that were taken to further regulate a variety of firearms, rifles, pistols, and shotguns. The move has resulted in a redirect, so anyone searching for the term will still arrive at the content. The new title also allows for a greater expansion of the article now or in the future. For example, this could become a home for proposed, but failed legislation regarding assault weapons. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 21:45, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

Oppose. Keep in mind that these types of laws usually only ban future possession, sale or manufacture and create a grandfathered class of people who must register their lawfully owned firearms prior to a certain date. People mistakenly say that "Action Arms Uzis" are banned in California, yet there are thousands of them legally owned and registered in California, albeit they are not transferrable to other citizens within the state who were too young or too poor to purchase them before further sale was disallowed. This is a common misnomer such as people saying that "machine guns are banned" when in fact just the creation of transferreable machine guns were prohibited after the Hughes Amendment to the 1986 FOPA. I think legislation is the more accurate term, without misleading the reader.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 22:02, 5 May 2014 (UTC)
Oppose. Of course it isn't an appropriate title - this is supposed to be an international encyclopaedia, and titles should't assume 'U.S.' is the default. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:50, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

Oppose Where a less accurate term is proposed to replace a more accurate term, the more accurate term wins. In the case at hand, we can refer to legislation which refers in the legislation to controls on "assault weapons" but the concept of a "ban" requires a settled definition of the term, and requires that the legislation actually "ban" such weapons. It is determined that there is no such definition, so the change would not help the Misplaced Pages reader, which is the goal of article titles. Collect (talk) 22:49, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

Threaded discussion

Scalhotrod (talk · contribs), where did I write that this article is "not just about bans"? Lightbreather (talk) 21:52, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

OK LB, take a deep breath and try to take this comment with a grain of salt. This is perhaps your biggest failing as a writer in my opinion, you read and interpret your writing seemingly in your "own voice" only and never seem to review it as others may interpret it. You have a meaning or intention in your head when you write it and then assume (and act with your edits) that this is the only way to state it. That's what blogs are for, but not Misplaced Pages. --Scalhotrod - Just your average banjo playing, drag racing, cowboy... (talk) 22:04, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

Let's keep this on content. (If you want to talk about me, please take it to my talk page.) Where did I write that this article is not just about bans? I titled this article "Assault weapons ban" because that's what a preponderance of WP:V, WP:RS, as well as the general populace refer to them as. That is the ONLY reason I chose the title. I've said this before, but here it is again: If a reader were to rely solely on Misplaced Pages before I wrote this article, he or she might get the impression that the only AWB there ever was was the federal one that expired 10 years ago. He or she might not easily learn - via Misplaced Pages anyway - that there actually are state AWBs in force! That does not reflect well on the project. Lightbreather (talk) 22:28, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

Mike Searson (talk · contribs), regardless of how you or Scal like to think of or refer to these laws, bans, legislation - do a preponderance of WP:V, WP:RS, as well as the general populace, refer to them as "assault weapons bans"? Lightbreather (talk) 22:18, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

I know, you're open minded and I'm a stupid jerk. But I found humor in the name of the first link here:--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 22:23, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

AFG, nothing here implies anyone is a "stupid jerk" let's not degenerate into name calling or perceived name calling. I think LB is trying to be persuasive, pointing out one phrase is in far more common uses then the other. Let's keep it civil. Thenub314 (talk) 22:27, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

Ummm, I called it to myself, how is that uncivil? You must be new at this.Oh and I believe the acronym you want is AGF. :)--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 22:30, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, I thought you meant he insulted you. Thenub314 (talk) 22:40, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

Actually LB is a she. No need to apologize we're pretty much good natured rivals with a very strong difference of opinion, that's why I try to use a bit of self-depreciating humor with my interactions.--Mike - Μολὼν λαβέ 22:47, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

Well, Mike, I think we've had a similar discussion before, and that link is... noteworthy. But not as much as the fact that there are about 20X more "assault weapons ban" results than there are "assault weapons legislation" results. And that the actual name of Feinstein's proposal was the "Assault Weapons Ban of 2013," as shown in the first two links here: It wasn't titled the "Assault Weapons Legislation of 2013." And the common name for the federal ban of 1994-2004 was the "assault weapons ban," not the "assault weapons legislation." And per WP:TITLE:

Generally, article titles are based on what the subject is called in reliable sources. When this offers multiple possibilities, editors choose among them by considering several principles: the ideal article title resembles titles for similar articles, precisely identifies the subject, and is short, natural, and recognizable.

--Lightbreather (talk) 23:05, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

AndyTheGrump (talk · contribs), I'm not sure I follow you. Are you saying you prefer "Assault weapon legislation" over "Assault weapon ban", or do you have some other title in mind? Lightbreather (talk) 23:21, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

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