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PACE Trial

One small point about the current wording: according to the PACE Trial page, the patients were recruited using the Oxford criteria. It only said they may meet other criteria, which I take to be entirely random chance whether they do or not. We should note that the Oxford criteria were used as the primary patient selection method, since that may in some way skew the patient make-up of the other subgroups. – RobinHood70 20:35, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, SW. – RobinHood70 21:12, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

Malcolm Hooper has now weighed in publicly on the PACE Trial, fairly thoroughly tearing it a new one. His initial response can be found here and then there's a response to a private e-mail here. There are certainly some interesting points in the two that suggest some fairly serious flaws and/or gross assumptions in the PACE Trial's methodology. – RobinHood70 03:20, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Thanks RobinHood70, this reminds me of the recent "XMRV is contamination" press release from the Wellcome Trust. Once you get past the uncritical media hype surrounding the PACE study, the results were unimpressive and a whole bunch of serious flaws have been spotted. I was surprised that the definition of "normal" levels of fatigue and physical functioning are still bad enough to qualify for entry into the PACE trial. Hooper has raised many other interesting points, and it appears that Jameson didn't do his homework before complaining, but obviously a blog can't be used here. I added a permalink to your post above for archival purposes. It is going to take me a while to process the Lancet paper but I will contribute what I can. Does the aftermath qualify for inclusion in the controversy section? - Tekaphor (TALK) 03:59, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the link fix, Tekaphor - due to a screw up by our ISP, we lost our Internet shortly after I posted and only got it back now, so I never noticed the current-link instead of perma-link. – RobinHood70 18:49, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

Possibly related to the PACE trial, possibly a more general point: This article could give the impression that CBT can only be used as part of one unified approach for CFS, when a number of different approaches can be taken. eg: CBT in the PACE trial was based upon the fear-avoidance model of CFS, but at the other end, CBT could be used on the assumption that CFS is perpetuated by non-cognitive-behavioural factors, largely outside of the patient's control, but which CBT can still be helpful for managing emotional/behavioural responses, sleep management, anxiety and depression related to illness, etc. My suggestion would be: make the general CBT section more wide-ranging, with an explanation that different approaches and understandings of CFS can be taken by therapists, and then have a more specific section on the CBT approach taken under PACE, which is probably the most significant (and recent) CBT trial for CFS; OR some sub-headings under CBT to briefly explain some of the different approaches that can be taken. Maybe this is expecting too much detail? I'm just worried that 'CBT' is currently talked about like it can only be one thing for CFS, and that may be misleading. Any thoughts from others? Flatronal (talk) 11:08, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

Ideally we should find a source that discusses the various approaches. In the article we reference the book "Chronic Fatigue Syndrome: An Integrative Approach to Evaluation and Treatment" to discuss CBT, but unfortunately this is not available free. I just came across this wikipedia page which lists all the CBT approaches techniques and systems. --sciencewatcher (talk) 16:18, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for that wiki link. That complicates things further though. I was reminded about some recent CBT stuff on 'acceptance' and CFS, which is quite different to past approaches. Also though, within those approaches to CBT, they can be applied differently to CFS depending upon the practitioner's understanding of the illness.

There is lack of good, clear and concise sources on CFS that cover all the different approaches that can be taken. Because it's also so complicated, it makes it difficult for us to condense the arguments and ideas of others fairly ourselves. However, I fear that people could read the current section on CBT without really learning anything about what it is, other than 'something psychological'.

Is 'An Integrative Approach to Evaluation and Treatment' a good choice for the primary source here? It is a bit old. I've not read it all, but the Wessely chapter seems to have lots of personality stuff, citing mainly stuff from pre-92 whose findings go against his own later research (other than perhaps a role for perfectionism). Maybe the description of CBT given in the PACE paper could be the basis for a summary of that approach?:

Cognitive behaviour therapy (CBT)

CBT was done on the basis of the fear avoidance theory of

chronic fatigue syndrome. This theory regards chronic fatigue

syndrome as being reversible and that cognitive responses

(fear of engaging in activity) and behavioural responses

(avoidance of activity) are linked and interact with

physiological processes to perpetuate fatigue. The aim of

treatment was to change the behavioural and cognitive

factors assumed to be responsible for perpetuation of the

participant’s symptoms and disability.

This is quite specific though, and may increase the danger of people assuming all CBT for CFS follows this model. Unless we stumble upon a really useful source, it could be a lot of work to try to summarise and make clear the different approaches that can be taken. The prospect of that work triggers my fear-avoidance response. Maybe just a brief note should be added to explain that different approaches to CBT for CFS can be taken?

I'll paste up the PACE description of GET too:

Graded exercise therapy (GET)

GET was done on the basis of deconditioning and exercise

intolerance theories of chronic fatigue syndrome. These

theories assume that the syndrome is perpetuated by

reversible physiological changes of deconditioning and

avoidance of activity. These changes result in the

deconditioning being maintained and an increased

perception of eff ort, leading to further inactivity. The aim of

treatment was to help the participant gradually return to

appropriate physical activities, reverse the deconditioning,

and thereby reduce fatigue and disability.

Sorry for the long comment and the lack of any real progress. I might try adding some more specifics to the PACE section later. edited to cut down the quotes from PACE, and reduce the length of my comment. Flatronal (talk) 18:56, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

(←) the PACE study is fatally flawed. It has so many flaws that it should not be considered a reliable source. I also believe that there should be a rebuttable presumption of invalidity of statements and papers coming from the proven frauds such as Wessely, White, Sharpe, etc., all of whom, I believe are authors on this paper. JustinReilly (talk) 02:12, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Just because we as patients disagree with these people doesn't make them frauds. In order to discredit their work, we would need reliable sources that indicate that there are problems with it. Same thing goes with the PACE trial itself. Since the Lancet has chosen to dismiss the myriad of objections with mere hand-waving, completely ignoring any kind of rebuttal of the issues raised, and nobody else has seen fit to address the issue, Wikipedians are left with no choice but to publish the results of the PACE trial as reported. – RobinHood70 02:37, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

I have a problem with this section: "The trial generated a furious response from patient groups and campaigners. Letters to the editor critiqued the definitions of secondary outcomes, questioned protocol changes, and expressed concern over generalisability of the results. Professor Malcolm Hooper branded the results "unethical and unscientific" and submitted a 442 page response to the Medical Research Council and a shorter 43-page complaint to the Lancet. The MRC and the Lancet have considered the submissions and rejected them. A Lancet editorial conjectured that the strong negative response might be due to the dismay over the debilitating illness, "but also from an active campaign to discredit the research."" This section is also present (copied from?) in the Misplaced Pages page about controversies. I would like it to be removed completely for the following reasons: The text does not make clear that from the start it is all more or less quoted from the -anonymous- Lancet editorial and is therefore an expression of someone's personal opinions. But because of this omission it may well be mistaken for facts by a Misplaced Pages reader. In the text "letters to the editor" are mentioned, including an explanation of what these letters are supposed to have said (according to the anonymous Lancet editor). This explanation however is not verifiable. Because Misplaced Pages does not allow using letters to editors as references we can't look them up. Professor Malcolm Hooper is also mentioned with his official complaints. However, we can't check what these complaints are, again, because of Misplaced Pages regulations the documents can't be referenced or quoted from. The anonymous Lancet editorial, by the way, claims that the 43 page complaint by Hooper is available on Misplaced Pages (where?). Again we see a personal opinion in the statement that the MRC and The Lancet have "considered" the submissions and rejected them. Is this true? Can we check this? Hooper denies that his complaints were considered before rejection but we can't cite or reference this, once more because of Misplaced Pages regulations. Finally, the Lancet editorial is mentioned and the presumptions that are made about the "dismay" and the "campaign". Even this is suggestive enough to have a psychological impact on Misplaced Pages readers and may be read as facts, rather than opinions. So, as long as it is not clear what the facts are, who wrote what, who is in fact the author of the editorial, and it is not possible to use references for the issues mentioned, I think it should go, in both Misplaced Pages pages. Does anyone disagree with this? Saflieni (talk) 19:14, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

I believe it will be better to make to make the paragraph more neutral. The whole incident had a lot of news coverage from secondary sources not cited in this paragraph so it is notable.

Proposal for more neutral wording:

The trial generated a swift response from patient groups and campaigners. Letters to the editor critiqued the definitions of secondary outcomes, questioned protocol changes, and expressed concern over generalisability of the results. Professor Malcolm Hooper branded the results "unethical and unscientific" and submitted a 442 page response to the Medical Research Council and a shorter 43-page complaint to the Lancet. The MRC and the Lancet considered the submissions but rejected them.

The changes are to remove "furious" as a judgmental term and to remove the reporter's editorial "conjecture" statement as having insufficient weight to be included in the Chronic fatigue syndrome treatment article. Changes to the identical section in the Controversies related to chronic fatigue syndrome article should be discussed there as the context of that article is different. Ward20 (talk) 21:03, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

I'm not sure that's a good idea. The response clearly was furious, and it is very notable. If you want another source, use Charles Shepherd, who talked about "anger and frustration" of patients (in the "Dangers of research into chronic fatigue syndrome" article). In fact we already have Lancet and BMJ sources for this, so I don't see an issue. Saflieni appears to be a bit unclear about how wikipedia's sourcing works. --sciencewatcher (talk) 23:09, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

Sciencewatcher and I already discussed this on his own talk page. He is missing the point: we are not robots who are supposed to apply rules without thinking. To pretend that a source is valid only because The Lancet or BMJ prints it, without any consideration for content and context, is not wise, especially when it concerns the personal opinions of editors and journalists. This gets very close to the 'ad verecundiam' fallacy any encyclopedia should avoid. Anyway, "Dangers of research into chronic fatigue syndrome" by Nigel Hawke is already referenced. The problem is that this page is about treatments and it does not really address the key problems with the PACE trial. Central to the controversy are not the frustrations of a few crazy people, like the two referenced opinions want us to believe, but problems with the science of the study. I have already explained to Sciencewatcher the issue of changing the parameters during the PACE trial to inflate the figures for "recovery". Professor Hooper points this out in his reply to a letter by White: "It cannot be acceptable to describe PACE participants as having “normal” levels of fatigue and physical function when they could simultaneously be sufficiently disabled -- as judged by their levels of fatigue and physical function -- to have qualified for entry into the PACE Trial in the first place." Dr Shepherd wrote a similar comment that was printed in Psychological Medicine in 2013 as a letter to the editor. And this is just one of many such issues. I can live with the suggestion of Ward20, but would still like the claim 'considered' to be removed, as it is disputed by Hooper and we can't cite that. Saflieni (talk) 08:13, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

It's pretty obvious that the trial generated a furious response from very many activists - you just need to look at the forums for that. We have two sources, including a very non-anonymous Charles Shepherd quoted in the reference we already have in the article.

As for the 65-to-60 issue, if you can find a more reliable source, put it in (based on weight). It looks like the Lancet didn't think it was relevant. I asked you that you should perhaps investigate the reasons why that is the case. Just because all the CFS activists are currently bleating about it, doesn't mean they are right and the Lancet is wrong. --sciencewatcher (talk) 14:52, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

A large number of scientists have addressed the 65-60 issue, along with other issues, from the start 3 years ago. I have mentioned two. It is not very respectful of Sciencewatcher to qualify comments by respected experts as 'bleating'. Besides, it's not a big secret, you can look it up yourself in the 2011 paper. The Lancet itself is not impartial in this controversy, as these issues are all signs of flaws in the peer reviewing process for the publication. The Lancet is not a flawless machine. It's people at work who, just like anywhere else, are capable of mistakes, bias and cognitive dissonance. It is not for Misplaced Pages to take sides here or judge the value of personal opinions of individuals, whether they are editing magazines or employed elsewhere. Misplaced Pages should represent the facts as neutral as possible. Besides, the responses of activists should not be mixed up with the comments made by experts. Those are separate issues. Saflieni (talk) 21:00, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

The problem with your 'experts' is that they tend to push crappy science (XMRV even after negative studies, or mould even though there is zero evidence) and then they badmouth good science that doesn't fit their preconceived ideas. I'm not saying PACE is perfect - it does have flaws. However it's much better science than XMRV or mould. Some of the 'experts' are worse than others. Anyway, as I said, feel free to put it into the article if you can find a good source. --sciencewatcher (talk) 21:17, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

Now you're just babbling and drifting off topic. If Sciencewatcher is unwilling to address my arguments he should take a step back and allow serious editors to weigh in here. Misplaced Pages was not created for judgmental people to push their private opinions. I still believe Ward20 offers the best solution. Saflieni (talk) 21:52, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

Even though this is off topic, I would like to add that the two experts I mentioned by name acknowledged the negative results of XMRV in public in 2011, even to the BBC, and again in 2012 after the Lipkin study. Dr Shepherd was himself harassed by some disappointed people. None of the scientists I refer to who critiqued the PACE papers fit the description Sciencewatcher offers. I suggest he spends some time reading the original papers by White et al and the comments by others that were published in The Lancet, Psychological Medicine and other media to get a better understanding of the subject. Saflieni (talk) 23:06, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

Sciencewatcher distinguishes between the reliability of sources of, on the one hand, an editorial opinion (anonymous) and a column summing up unverified claims to arrive at a preconceived point, and, on the other hand, correspondence by a variety of experts published in the same medical journals. I can't find reason for this distinction in Misplaced Pages guidelines. Correspondence appears to be a valid source similar to editorials and opinion pieces: "Peer reviewed medical journals are a natural choice as a source for up-to-date medical information in Misplaced Pages articles. They contain a mixture of primary and secondary sources. Journal articles come in many types, including original research ranging from vast studies to individual case reports, reviews, editorials and op-ed pieces, advocacy pieces, speculation, book reviews, letters to the editor and other forms of commentary or correspondence, biographies, and eulogies." (MEDRS) I was invited to investigate the reasons for specific protocol changes during the PACE trial. I re-read the replies written by White in The Lancet (2011) and BMJ (2013). These are also letters to editors and would therefore be deemed 'unreliable' according to Sciencewatcher. However, neither of the letters by White provide an answer to the specific points of criticism, such as the 65-60 issue. Some other reminders from Misplaced Pages guidelines and policy: "It is a generally accepted standard that editors should attempt to follow , though it is best treated with common sense, and occasional exceptions may apply." "Avoid stating opinions as facts." "Editing from a neutral point of view (NPOV) means representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without bias, all of the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic." "The tone of Misplaced Pages articles should be impartial, neither endorsing nor rejecting a particular point of view. Try not to quote directly from participants engaged in a heated dispute; instead, summarize and present the arguments in an impartial tone." "Passages open to multiple interpretations should be precisely cited or avoided." Saflieni (talk) 10:57, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

Last set of arguments from me: To put things in perspective on the 'furious response' bit, I came across an article by Simon Wessely in The Spectator (27 august 2011) where he does the same. I quote: "OK, let’s keep a sense of proportion. It’s only a small number of people who do this." I also came across some serious verbal abuse directed at Ellen Goudsmit and another few of 'my experts' as Sciencewatcher calls them. I agree it is notable, but still think it is over-emphasized. And there is no clear distinction between the "campaigners" and the experts whose comments on the science of the trial were published in The Lancet, Psychological Medicine and BMJ. I believe Misplaced Pages should include a short summary of the experts' arguments rather than quote an opinion about those letters without the proper attribution. I guess I'll wait a few days for editors to read all my arguments and respond before I'll enter suggested changes. Saflieni (talk) 17:29, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

You seem to conveniently missed all the bits of the wikipedia policies that talk about weight. That is what 'proportionately' means. It doesn't mean that we present all viewpoints according to how loudly they shout. Instead it means we give them space according to their quality. Read through 'Due and undue weight' in the NPOV page, and also 'assessing evidence quality' in MEDRS. If it was included we would probably have to say that 'xxx wrote a letter to the editor pointing out...', basically showing that it was that person's opinion. Also we would have to give the authors' response. IMO that would be a weight violation, and a waste of space. If people are interested they can easily find the letters to the editor and read them themselves. However if the consensus is that we should include them, then go ahead. --sciencewatcher (talk) 18:01, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

I can't continue to repeat the same arguments if you refuse to read or address them. One last time: A personal opinion by an anonymous editor, or a news article voicing claims that went unchecked, are not evidence, nor facts, and should not be included as such. You can attribute them to the individuals whose opinions they are. If you wish to mention a controversy, you have to describe the viewpoints of both sides. We're not talking about opinions of individual campaigners, but very specific comments on the content of a scientific study by a substantial number of experts, many of them scientists with PhD's and decades of practice in the field, from different countries and continents, that were published by these journals you claim are of high quality. They all seem to have arrived at very similar conclusions so it is not difficult to summarize. But since you seem not very well informed about the facts of the matter and have revealed on this talk page that you are not neutral yourself, you might not be the best judge here. (Please note there is nothing in the policies or guidelines to support the claims you have been making so far. To the contrary, as I pointed out before. It seems you are making up your own rules.) Saflieni (talk) 23:15, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

Actually it is you who is not understanding wikipedia policy. An anonymous editorial very much satisfies WP:RS. A bunch of pHds writing letters to the editor does not satisfy WP:MEDRS. I suggest you actually read the policies.

As I've stated to you before in my talk page, if you want to edit wikipedia you need to sometimes edit AGAINST your personal opinions. That is what I did when I was the first person to add XMRV even though I thought it was probably a bunch of crap (which it later turned out to be), and I added PACE even though I think CBT is woefully lacking in effectiveness and based on a dubious etiology.

Arbitrary Break 1

You make many assumptions but you don't back them up with facts. Why don't you start by specifying where exactly we can find your pretend rules in the guidelines, instead of just waving at them broadly. The sections in the NPOV and MEDRS pages you've been referring to don't even apply. Those specific guidelines concern references to support broad scientific views and medical claims, which are not under discussion here. Talking about guidelines; your negative remarks about 'my' intentions, 'my' beliefs/politics, 'my' experts, and your 'warning' are violations of the "Comment on content, not on the contributor" and the "Do not threaten people" guidelines. Misplaced Pages is not a private toy and your quarreling attitude is not helpful. Saflieni (talk) 18:37, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

To finalize the discussion on guidelines and move on: Misplaced Pages guidelines do not distinguish between opinion articles like editorials, letters to editors, or other opinion pieces published in the same journals as far as reliability is concerned. If Sciencewatcher (or anyone else) fails to point out where a distinction is made in the guidelines I will ignore his remarks on this matter. More relevant here is this advice: "Use sources that directly support the material presented in an article and are appropriate to the claims made. The appropriateness of any source depends on the context." The context here is the 'furious response'. The sources directly supporting the material are the published letters. Saflieni (talk) 02:08, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

The guidelines to distinguish between them with regard to weight. "Giving due weight and avoiding giving undue weight means that articles should not give minority views or aspects as much of, or as detailed, a description as more widely held views or widely supported aspects. Generally, the views of tiny minorities should not be included at all, except perhaps in a "see also" to an article about those specific views".

The letters themselves are linked to directly from the Lancet article --sciencewatcher (talk) 02:36, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

As for the complaint itself: I can see your point. The Lancet says the complaint exists on wikipedia, but that doesn't appear to be the case. Were they talking about the mecfsforums wiki that you linked? Normally that type of webpage wouldn't be classed as a reliable source, but it looks like it may actually be the main source for Hooper's complaint. It wouldn't be a problem if Prof Hooper put the complaint on his own personal website - that would satisfy WP:RS. However when it appears on a forum like this, it's more of a problem. I would recommend getting some opinions from other editors before deciding whether or not to add it. --sciencewatcher (talk) 02:36, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

Generally speaking, forums or a wiki are not considered a reliable source. That said, given Hooper's activity in this area, I suspect he would have mentioned it to someone if there were bogus copies of his report floating around, and that word of that would have spread quickly. Googling, I found a wealth of corroborating evidence and at least at a quick glance, nothing at all to suggest any impropriety, so I'm inclined to allow it to be used in the context of a short blurb about the response to the PACE trial.

As to the anonymous editorial, it certainly sounds like that's the Lancet's (formal?) reply to all the hubbub, so if we're going to include references to Hooper's response, it's only fair to include the Lancet's as well. After all, WP is about verifiability, and it's verifiable that the Lancet responded. Finally, I would also support the removal of the word "furious", since it could be interpreted in that context as either "angry response" or "a flurry of responses". While there's no doubt that "angry" applies to many of the individual responses, it certainly doesn't apply to all of them, so I don't think it's appropriate to have that as a possible interpretation. If we wanted to use "flurry" or maybe say there was a "vigorous response", or something along those lines, that works for me. – RobinHood70 03:48, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

The guideline mentioned by sciencewatcher applies to references for medical claims. The comments in The Lancet etc. are of a different nature. Below is my suggestion for improvement. I tried to represent reactions from all sides as best as possible. I suggest using as reference a page on the Lancet's website with links to both the editorial and the correspondence, rather than linking a great number of individual letters, but have no clue if this is against guidelines: http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/issue/vol377no9780/PIIS0140-6736%2811%29X6022-1.

Nope, that was quoted from NPOV. Also: "NPOV is a fundamental principle of Misplaced Pages and of other Wikimedia projects. This policy is nonnegotiable and all editors and articles must follow it." --sciencewatcher (talk) 16:08, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

There is a difference between judging the weight of research for supporting medical claims, that's what the guideline sciencewatcher mentioned is for, and opinion articles with no research content and no peer review. Those are in completely different realms. Misplaced Pages doesn't distinguish between types of opinion articles published in the same journals, because they are what they are: opinions, not facts. Saflieni (talk) 16:26, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

No, there is no mention of 'medical claims' anywhere at all in the NPOV page. It is the fundamental principle of wikipedia, and it is the only rule that you cannot break. It applies to opinions just as much as anything else. The Lancet's opinion carries a lot more weight than mine, for example. --sciencewatcher (talk) 17:10, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

I fail to see the relevance. This guideline doesn't specify what I asked, and it doesn't apply to the content of the published letters. They do not contain statements supporting fringe science or anything of that order. The editors of The Lancet judged these letters significant enough to be included in the discussion so who are you to question their value? Doing that makes you part of the discussion. That's not your place as a Misplaced Pages editor and that's why Misplaced Pages doesn't distinguish between these types of articles. Do you have any plans to help improve this page, or are you just going to continue like this forever? Saflieni (talk) 17:41, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

I just realized that one of the comments (Kewley) is already being used as a reference in this Article. Saflieni (talk) 19:03, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

Here's my suggestion: The publication of trial results in The Lancet generated a vigorous response. Letters to the editor by some specialists and patient advocates expressed concern over generalisability of the results and questioned protocol changes during the course of the trial that resulted in some participants meeting criteria for “trial recovery” at baseline. Patient groups expressed disappointment over news media interpreting the definition of “recovery to normal by trial criteria" as “cured”. Professor Malcolm Hooper submitted a 442 page response to the Medical Research Council and a shorter 43-page complaint to the Lancet. The MRC and the Lancet considered the submissions but rejected them. A Lancet editorial expressed suspicions of an active campaign to discredit the research. Saflieni (talk) 09:26, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

NB: The confusion between "recovery" (in terms of trial criteria), and "cured" (associated with reaching average levels of health) also hit BMJ. A summary of White et al (2011) on the page Shortcuts described trial results as follows: "Less than a third of patients were cured by either treatment (30% (44/148) after CBT and 28% (43/154) after graded exercise therapy)." http://www.bmj.com/content/342/bmj.d1168 Saflieni (talk) 16:17, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

If there are no serious objections anymore... If someone could advise on my question about referencing the comments (I also found some pdf's of the Lancet correspondence pages through researchgate that could be linked but I didn't find all of them yet.) As these seem to represent the most pressing concerns, I guess it won't be necessary to also include a reference to the Hooper pages. Saflieni (talk) 16:18, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

Sciencewatcher: stop bullying. If you don't have any valid arguments to support your actions, your actions are not valid either. Saflieni (talk) 18:02, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

My arguments are above. I've better things to do with my time than getting insulted and attacked when I try to help a newbie understand wikipedia policies. You've proven that you completely misunderstand NPOV, which is the most important wikipedia policy. Please follow WP:CIVIL otherwise there will be no further discussion on this talk page. --sciencewatcher (talk) 18:40, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

I guess you refer to your argument "You seem to have come here to try and shoehorn something into wikipedia due to your beliefs/politics. That is never going to work here, so I'm just warning you that you're wasting your time." and a number of others along that line. I don't find that helpful. We disagree on the question if the NPOV section you refer to applies here. That doesn't mean you are right and I am wrong. The text I have improved decribes the responses to the trial by different groups. The most reliable sources for who said what are representatives of those groups themselves. Allowing one group to interpret what the others say and presenting that as fact on Misplaced Pages is not a neutral point of view. Your idea of weight seems to be based on personal likes and dislikes, not on Misplaced Pages policies. Anyway, I have put this opinion forward, but I don't see you addressing it. Just reverting my edits, because you don't like them is not an example of civil behaviour. Saflieni (talk) 19:02, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

I'm sorry that that comment upset you. I was merely trying to let you know that ignoring wikipedia policies is a waste of time here. I've removed that comment. You seem to be under the illusion that WP:NPOV and WP:WEIGHT applies just to some sections (medical, scientific). That is NOT the case. They apply to all articles. That's not my opinion, that's how wikipedia works. If you read the policies you will see this. I'm not reverting your edits because I "don't like them". I'm reverting them purely based on policy. --sciencewatcher (talk) 19:46, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

Again you ignore my arguments. Besides, how is this not expressing likes and dislikes: "The problem with your 'experts' is that they tend to push crappy science (XMRV even after negative studies, or mould even though there is zero evidence) and then they badmouth good science that doesn't fit their preconceived ideas." If you took the time to read the comments you would realize you are jumping to the wrong conclusions. But even so, if you describe a controversy between different points of view, you have to summarize those points of view accurately, without inserting your own bias. It doesn't matter who wrote them, it does not even matter if they are true or not. That's irrelevant to the issue as becomes clear from the guidelines: "Use sources that directly support the material presented in an article and are appropriate to the claims made." "Avoid stating opinions as facts." "Try not to quote directly from participants engaged in a heated dispute; instead, summarize and present the arguments in an impartial tone." And so on. These were all violated in the original text. I haven't yet seen any specific guidelines to support your opinion. My guess is they don't exist. Saflieni (talk) 21:56, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

I was more referring to people like Shoemaker and Myhill (among others) who are regarded as 'experts' on forums and spout really bad quackery. Some like Hooper aren't exactly experts, but not quacks either. Since you quoted Hooper, that was why I said 'your experts'. Hooper, Goudsmit, etc. certainly aren't experts as far as wikipedia's sourcing guidelines are concerned. However, getting back to the point: the guidelines you should be looking at are WP:NPOV and {{WP:WEIGHT]] (actually they're both the same guidelines, but different parts of it). The point is that it does matter 'who wrote them'. You can't just quote everyone equally, as that is a weight violation. --sciencewatcher (talk) 23:02, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

Again not addressing my arguments: This is a description of the different points of view in a controversy! Weight has nothing to do with it! Different guidelines apply in this situation than the section of NPOV you keep referring to. I explicitly quoted them several times already and, as I have argued over and over again, it's also common sense. You fail to produce any guideline that says differently. If you can't accept that you might be wrong, file a dispute or something. I give up. Saflieni (talk) 23:39, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

No, WEIGHT applies to controversies as well. Please quote where it says that WEIGHT only applies to scientific or medical info (as you seem to believe). I certainly could be wrong, but it looks like I've done a lot more editing here than you, so perhaps you should consider the possibility that you are misunderstanding the guidelines. Have you read the 'neutral point of view' page in its entirety? --sciencewatcher (talk) 23:43, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

The controversies you think of are of a different nature and concern majority/minority views along the lines of evolution/creationism, medical science/homeopathy, and so on. The NPOV section you refer to even gives an example of this: the flat earth concept. We're not dealing with that here. This controversy is about perceived flaws in the methods used during a specific trial. We're not discussing a "subjective" issue here, but responses published in reliable sources concerning a verifiable issue. If we choose to describe the vigorous/furious responses, we have to summarize and attribute them accurately. Even where fringe science is concerned Misplaced Pages NPOV FAQ WP:ASSERT states: "When a statement is an opinion (e.g. a matter which is subject to dispute or commonly considered to be subjective), it should be attributed in the text to the person or group who holds the opinion." So, "weight" should be considered as appropriate to context, which in this case is the controversy itself: ask yourself what are the most reliable sources for each opinion? If you allow either side of a dispute to represent the views of the other side, you are strawmanning instead of applying "weight". I have already quoted guidelines for how best to describe the different views in a situation like this. But I believe I have answered all your questions many times already and in many different ways, while you fail to produce any guideline that say differently. Why don't you start concentrating on that? Saflieni (talk) 08:34, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

Hi Saflieni.

I agree that the PACE trial is significantly flawed and the recovery criteria is inadequate, but Misplaced Pages is a systematic appeal to authority (to a fault) so you may have trouble convincing certain regulars about the weight of letters to the editor and other minor articles. I'm rusty on Misplaced Pages's rules, but I think people can get carried away sometimes. Misplaced Pages is not a bureaucracy. RobinHood's advice seems sound.

WP:NPOV is the most important policy to understand here, NPOV overrides MEDRS, WP:MEDRS is a guideline not a policy, and it does not actually exclude the use of letters to the editor and even lists them as an example of journal articles, and MEDRS does not apply to controversies anyway, so you may want to explore the possibility of expanding the content there instead:

http://en.wikipedia.org/Controversies_related_to_chronic_fatigue_syndrome#PACE_trial

A significant but unknown proportion of the relevant community dispute the PACE trial results, so it deserves a mention.

Regarding the discussion on Sciencewatcher's talkpage, in this dispute it doesn't really matter whether there are alleged errors or flaws in Hooper's or other work, errors and flaws are relatively common in published papers too, and unfortunately those appear to be irrelevant to judging whether a source is reliable. As far as the PACE trial is concerned, there is at least 1 factual error in the Lancet paper, at least 1 highly dubious claim in the accompanying Lancet editorial which the Press Complaints Commission ruled was misleading on the issue of recovery, at least 1 factual error in the Lancet editorial accompanying the authors' reply (which in relation to this current dispute over including a link to Hooper's complaint, ironically claimed in 2011 that Hooper's complaint is available here at Misplaced Pages), and at least 2 factual errors in the Psychological Medicine recovery paper buried among significant flaws and several questionable statements, such as describing their definition of recovery as "comprehensive and conservative" when it overlapped with their own definition of severe debilitating fatigue.

I must also point out that there is a Misplaced Pages policy known as "Ignore all rules". "If a rule prevents you from improving or maintaining Misplaced Pages, ignore it." Not a blanket excuse to ignore NPOV, and I know people will piss and moan about it as if it is some myth, but the fact is it exists and is a policy that we should follow when practical.

I would like to see the main criticisms of the PACE trial briefly mentioned. Good luck. On the issue of recovery in general, you may find this recent systematic review paper of interest, as it includes criticisms and positively cites some of the critical letters to the editor in response to the controversial PACE trial recovery paper. - Tekaphor (TALK) 13:21, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

Arbitrary Break 2

The point is that the Lancet carries a lot more weight than each of those letters. So how much space should we give them? It would seem that the Lancet editorial should get the majority of the space, and then Hooper as he is the main opponent (and he has the most coverage). That is the way the article was before, and it is better than your version.

Also, regarding "not subjective" and published in "reliable sources": in that case we should only be using reliable medical sources, and letters to the editor definitely fail MEDRS.

Let me ask you two questions: have you fully read the MEDRS and NPOV guidelines? Did you yourself write any of those letters to the editor that appear in the Lancet website? --sciencewatcher (talk) 13:58, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

You haven't read any of my explanations have you? I have quoted explicit guidelines the previous text was in violation with and specific guidelines that support my edits. Your personal opinion is irrelevant. If you delete the edits again I will consider this vandalism. Saflieni (talk) 15:40, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict)The way I see it, you both have valid points. The policies and guidelines you've both been quoting do apply here. Unfortunately, it's the nature of these policies to come into conflict with each other sometimes. I think it's appropriate to summarize all the major viewpoints, which Saflieni's edit mostly does. What's missing, though, both before and after Saflieni's edits, is the response of the medical community. From what little I've seen, that covers the gamut from people who thought the PACE trial was a well-conducted study to those who thought more like Hooper did, but I can't say I've really kept up on reaction to the PACE trial enough to think I have a good feel for it.

Looking at the actual text of both, they're really saying mostly the same things, with the exception that Saflieni's text adds the reaction of patient groups into the mix. I don't think it's unreasonable to insert that view, as long as it's clearly expressed as the reaction of the community and not given any more weight than is appropriate to that.

Lastly, I take the editorial in the Lancet as being a letter from the editor, though that's not entirely clear. Whatever the case, without knowing who wrote it and what kind of process it went through before being printed, I think we have to deem that as an opinion, albeit one that has a bit more weight than normal, since it certainly appears to be from the editor or at least someone on their staff, which probably puts it on par with Hooper. – RobinHood70 15:50, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

Thank you. I could add the letter by White from the same Lancet pages if you like, but there's the FAQ page containing the same information already. The issues raised by Shepherd, Hooper, etc. were never addressed as far as I know, which seems to be a major source of frustration among patient groups. Saflieni (talk) 16:02, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

I would agree that the editorial is an opinion, as well as the letters, and that the editorial carries more weight than the letters. Do you have a proposal for a new version, Rob? Saflieni's version seems to be a gross weight violation. Also, the authors did reply to the letters, so that would have to be included as well if you go down that route, but I believe that would be a huge mess and a weight violation. However if that's what the consensus is, I'm happy with it. Saflieni: I would recommend you revert your changes until we agree on a new version. --sciencewatcher (talk) 16:05, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

sciencewatcher, don't continue to harass me on my talk page with more insults. NB Since this little bit of text deals with the vigorous reactions, but the issues raised were not addressed by the medical community, it's difficult to summarize their response. I believe the article by Nigel Hawkes (where's the "weight" here by the way?) covers most of the "responses to the responses" to fill up this gap. But I will add a link to the letter by White later. If RobinHood70 agrees I'll leave it as is with the addition of a link to White's letter. Saflieni (talk) 17:14, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

Asking whether you wrote one of the letters isn't harassment. It's a very valid question here - if you wrote one of the letters you have a WP:COI. Please stop your personal attacks and concentrate on the article. You aren't showing much good faith here. --sciencewatcher (talk) 17:20, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

I think you're just trying to bully me into saying something awful to you, so you can have me barred. That's not going to happen. Saflieni (talk) 17:29, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

Well you've already said some pretty awful things to me (above). However I'm willing to overlook them if you can concentrate on editing the article in future. People (including me) sometimes get hot-headed, and fighting back doesn't improve anything. I've tried to show good faith by removing the comment that upset you (above), limiting my reverts to one a day, and trying to ignore your attacks and rudeness. We can do this one of two ways: either we can be civil to each other and concentrate on the article (my preference), or we can go to the admin noticeboard and get an admin to intervene. Your choice. --sciencewatcher (talk) 17:40, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

I'll wait for RobinHood70 to respond to my suggestion, thank you. Saflieni (talk) 18:24, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

I added a summary of the authors reply to the concerns expressed in the Lancet with a reference to their letter, as promised at 17:14, 9 May 2014 Saflieni (talk) 21:11, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

"then Hooper as he is the main opponent" maybe now OT, but I see no good reason for presenting Hooper as the key critic. I've seen dismissive coverage of the length of something he sent to the Lancet, but I don't think he had anything published. Charles Shepherd has had at least two letters published criticising how results from PACE were presented, and he's the medical advisor to the ME Association. I don't think it would be a good idea to present him as 'the main opponent' either, but he seems to have more of a claim to the title than Hooper. Flatronal (talk) 23:54, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

The other issue is that we are essentially duplicating all of this in the controversies article. In fact if you look there, there is a much better summary of the criticisms. That is also a better place for this stuff. I would suggest just trimming it all down to a single sentence in the treatment article, and leaving the controversies article as-is. --sciencewatcher (talk) 00:30, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

I suggested removing the lot, but that was opposed by sciencewatcher earlier. He's just making trouble. As he has repeatedly uttered hateful remarks towards the scientists and patient advocates that critiqued the PACE paper, this prejudice is clouding his judgment. If someone has a strong bias about a subject he/she can't be neutral and should not edit text about it in my opinion. Saflieni (talk) 01:10, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

Sciencewatcher's ONLY argument against my edits was "weight". Letters to editors should not be cited. The "much better summary" on the controversies page uses websites and dead links as references. Like I said: just making trouble. Saflieni (talk) 01:23, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

I didn't oppose it. I completely missed that suggestion that you made. I apologise. I don't see any letters to the editor referenced in the controversies page, but maybe I missed them. Now I suggest that you remove your personal attack above, otherwise I will be requesting admin intervention. This is your last warning - stop personal attacks and show good faith. --sciencewatcher (talk) 01:27, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

I'm just highlighting your disruptive behaviour. If you wish to request admin intervention you should return the insults you removed to clean up after yourself first. Your threats are just more examples of being disagreeable, but I'm not stopping you. Saflieni (talk) 01:42, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

To prevent the discussion about allowing the letters as sources from dragging on forever: 1/ I have the impression that the consensus is to allow them as long as it's clear they represent opinions (which I believe is now the case). 2/ One of the letters was already used as a source on this page long before this issue arose, apparently without objections (Kewley). 3/ It remains unclear why an opinion article by a journalist should carry more weight than a comment by - for instance - an expert who's got a PhD in Myalgic Encephalomyelitis. For these reasons I ask sciencewatcher to stand by the promise he made earlier on this talk page: "However if the consensus is that we should include them, then go ahead. 18:01, 4 May 2014 (UTC)", so we can all move on. Saflieni (talk) 12:04, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

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