Talk:Banc De Binary - Misplaced Pages

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Company Names vs Service Companies

It is requested that an edit be made to the semi-protected article at Banc De Binary. (edit · history · last · links · protection log)

This template must be followed by a complete and specific description of the request, that is, specify what text should be removed and a verbatim copy of the text that should replace it. "Please change X" is not acceptable and will be rejected; the request must be of the form "please change X to Y".

The edit may be made by any autoconfirmed user. Remember to change the |answered=no parameter to "yes" when the request has been accepted, rejected or on hold awaiting user input. This is so that inactive or completed requests don't needlessly fill up the edit requests category. You may also wish to use the {{ESp}} template in the response. To request that a page be protected or unprotected, make a protection request.

I'd like to re-iterate the point that I made before on the talk page that Banc De Binary is the operating name of several companies including:

Banc De Binary LTD (Cyprus)
BDB Services LTD (Cyprus)

The other companies listed (BO Systems LTD and ET Binary Options LTD) are "service" companies which do not interact with the customers directly.

The company was never formally known as any other company, since all of its operations were done as "Banc De Binary". Listing companies is inconsistent with how other companies which have several "operating" companies are listed, for example:

In the examples I have provided above, I do not see any reference to the companies which "operate" under the brand.

I'd like to suggest editing the line:

Banc De Binary, formerly known as BO Systems Limited and also known as BDB Services Limited and ET Binary Options Ltd. is an Israeli-Cypriot based enterprise specializing in binary options (also known as fixed return options) on assets including commodities, stocks, indices, and foreign exchange."

As follows:

Banc De Binary is an Cypriot-Israeli company which offers Binary Options (also known as fixed return options) on assets including commodities, stocks, indicies and foreign exchange.

And having an additional section called "operating companies" which includes information about companies which operate under the brand "Banc De Binary" world-wide, and other companies which provide them services. BDBJack (talk) 03:17, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

Banc de Binary simply uses different names, like with a person that has aliases, such as (a.k.a Oren Laurent). The company have said themselves that in deposition that they are small, less than 60 people, so the comparison to Coca Cola is either intended to be humorous or misleading. The photos taken inside their premises in Israel show that ET Binary Options is just an alias for Banc de Binary, the visible skyline of Ramat Gan out of the window in some of their helpful Youtube videos is another clue.HistorianofRecenttimes (talk) 15:40, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

That statement would ignore the fact that there are numerous videos of the office in Cyprus, from which you can clearly see the city of Limassol. Either way, regardless of the amount of employees, the fact that Banc De Binary has several companies operating under the same name due to regulatory concerns is not uncommon. And the precedent shown in the articles listed above shows that other companies do not have lists of their "operations" companies. BDBJack (talk) 16:21, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

In the case of companies like HSBC or Coca Cola, they have entirely different products for sale, which have to be branded differently. Banc de Binary has a tiny presence on sites like LinkedIN and photos of the employees together on it's Facebook page show it really does have less than 60 employees. Banc de Binary are solely an online gambling company that offers only binary options, if they could be termed that in the way they are packaged. There's nothing else on offer, and the different companies have no different employees under them, there's no record of this in the Israeli companies house. Calls to Cyprus are simply rerouted onto the real HQ in Ramat Gan, in the same way any company has one number connected to another to give the impression of being in more than one place.HistorianofRecenttimes (talk) 17:02, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

I challenge you to prove the following statements:

Banc de Binary are solely an online gambling company

the different companies have no different employees under them

Calls to Cyprus are simply rerouted onto the real HQ in Ramat Gan

My statements

Banc De Binary offers a platform which allows traders to trade on Binary Options. Binary Options has NOT been defined as gambling, and is regulated as a financial instrument. (see which lists Banc De Binary as in a list of "

Investment Firms"

Banc De Binary is required to have at least an auditor and an operational presence in Cyprus due to regulation. However if there are no employees in Cyprus, then how can you explain the following videos which were recorded in the Cyprus office? Even the person in the videos (Sarah Fenwick) has no presence in Israel. ( see http://www.sarahfenwick.com/ , http://cy.linkedin.com/pub/sarah-fenwick/20/36b/795 )
https://www.youtube.com/user/BancDeBinary

Customer support is twice as expensive in Israel as it is in Cyprus. What company in their right mind would spend twice as much to answer phone calls?

BDBJack (talk) 00:21, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

I have removed the {{edit semi-protected}} template, because it should only be used after consensus has been established. I have left {{request edit}} in place. This message is procedural. Mz7 (talk) 00:37, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

Updated References

The CFTC has updated the information in their litigation with Banc De Binary according to the following sources:

The statement (and explanation of the relationship between Banc De Binary Ltd., ET Binary Options, BO Systems Ltd., and BDB Services Ltd. is __"three corporate affiliates"__. A futher explanation can be found in the quote __"The amended Complaint charges that all four of the corporate Defendants operated as a common enterprise, each one individually and collectively, operating under the trade name “Banc de Binary.”"__

Thus it is suggested that the sentence in the first paragraph:

Banc De Binary, formerly known as BO Systems Limited and also known as BDB Services Limited and ET Binary Options Ltd., is an Israeli-Cypriot based enterprise specializing in binary options (also known as fixed return options) on assets including commodities, stocks, indices, and foreign exchange

be changed to:

Banc De Binary is an enterprise specializing in binary options (also known as fixed return options) on assets including commodities, stocks, indices, and foreign exchange

BDBJack (talk) 00:51, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

I have now met BDBJack on his talk. I also disclosed receiving an email from Mr Oren Laurent of BDB myself, and, so, given the climate: it's my reading of policy that, if you're very suspicious, you are free to treat BDBJack and Okteriel as the same editor for certain purposes. For instance if I agree with him I can understand that might be discounted. I hope this limited freedom won't result in any abuses.
However, this edit request is pretty easy to agree with. The CFTC corrected itself last month, the article relies on bad old data, and this is the corporation's identity we're talking about, the very first thing a Misplaced Pages article needs to establish. And nobody can answer this or close it in two months? Just because SPA anti Historian and disclosed-COI pro BDBJack disagree, that's "no consensus"? but we don't close it either? Nobody can deny him but nobody wants to help him either?
Other users commented in another section. There is now no remaining sourcing supporting the errant clause, and no other user argued that the edit request was incorrect in any way. I boldly submit that if there is still no opposition later, this should be converted to an "edit protected" template due to the consensus of all editors' silence who faced the question and ignored it. Thank you. Okteriel (talk) 19:06, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

Edit Request

It is requested that an edit be made to the semi-protected article at Banc De Binary. (edit · history · last · links · protection log)

I'd like to request that the following content line is edited

Banc de Binary customers do not execute their trades via a regulated exchange, but are 'betting' against the firm itself, and the firm only profits if the client loses.

This statement is not true. Banc De Binary customers execute their trades via a regulated exchange - the SpotOption exchange. See the following resources:

After reviewing the articles:

Both appear to be "marketing" or "affiliation" sites which are used direct users to register accounts with competing companies.

BDBJack (talk) 04:21, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

It has already been pointed out that both are reliable sources. SpotOption is an Israeli IT company that produces software for online gaming. Banc de Binary have bought a licence to use it. Part of the software is that it allows Banc de Binary to see how many people are betting on the asset going up or down, and then give an exact figure of the companies profit/ loss in either case. As has been stated in the US regulator's warning, some online binary companies have manipulated the software to produce losing trades.

In the case of Banc de Binary there is no wider exchange, where they are doing business with other companies in a transparent market, which is then overseen by independent assessors, such as NADEX. Instead, they just bought some software off Spotoption, which they customise and control with no third party verification from a government agency. A regulated exchange means exactly that. The only way Banc de Binary can make money is if a customer's bet on an asset loses, but as Banc de Binary are controlling the software which shows both the time & price at start and expiration this would be an obvious conflict of interest. For Banc de Binary to make money more people have to make a losing bet than a winning bet, as Banc de Binary are the only ones paying out. In a regulated exchange the company doesn't control the software showing the price or time, but it is overseen by an independent body. This is why it's called a regulated exchange. When Banc de Binary pretended to be based in NY they tried to give this impression, but unfortunately the real US regulator found out.

Perhaps Banc de Binary can tell us where exactly their profits come from, if this is not the case? HistorianofRecenttimes (talk) 15:40, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

Saying that SpotOption produces software for online gambling is like saying that Scottrade is a casino. An "investor" who simply "gambles" can gamble anywhere - be it in Binary Options, stocks, bonds, or even real estate. SpotOption, regardless of it's Israeli headquarters, also has a headquarters in Cyprus where they have to maintain a presence due to regulation. This means that the regulators must have easy access to their offices, and they must have an auditor on-site, so as to ensure compliance with the CySEC regulation.

And as far as how we make our money, Banc De Binary does not charge fees from their investors. The profit comes from the difference between the options that expire in the money to options that expire out of the money. This difference can be found by the formula below. In this (for each base asset with same expiry characteristics), (W) is the in the money option payout in percentage terms (e.g. 1.7), (L) is the out of the money option payout in percentage terms (e.g. 0.15), $(V_{1}),(V_{2})$ are the turnovers of transactions made for each outcome (e.g. $1,000), (S) is the platform's gain.

$S=-$

In this example the platform's turnover is $2,000 and its profit is $150 or 7.5% on turnover. As the platform’s gain comes from the above formula, most platforms will be indifferent as to the outcome of a single trade. Note that if $V_{1}$ is not equal to $V_{2}$ then the platform will have to act as a market maker. This can cause the platform gain (S) to be more volatile than in the above formula. In order for a trader to make a long term profit he has to predict correctly roughly 54.5% of the time (depending on in-the-money and out-of-the money payouts).

In layman's terms, we make money on the difference between the payout from the option (100%) and what is given to the customer ( 75% - 90% depending on the option ). The entity which profits from the client loosing is the entity which purchases the opposing option.

Don't forget - we don't click the button for you. The client always has the ability to choose if and when they want to enter the position.

BDBJack (talk) 16:34, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

According to the US regulators statement some online binary options companies make those choices for the customers, when it appears that the customer might have won, so that the company has now won instead. The company does indeed also appear to sometimes click the button for the customer to change their expiration time, and even the price of the asset on expiry. The customer does have the ability to choose, but what if the start price is completely wrong, and they have been duped?

You mentioned the phrase, layman's terms, but this is not the definition of it by any means. In this case it would be mean stating that Banc de Binary get back whatever the customers have lost, minus what they have won. With Banc de Binary controlling the software behind each trade a customer would need more than just to be lucky 54.5% of the time, they'd also need someone else from a proper regulator to control the software altogether, as in a regulated exchange. HistorianofRecenttimes (talk) 17:02, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

Can you please be more specific as to which US regulator and which Binary Options company? Can you please show evidence of this "The company does indeed also appear to sometimes click the button for the customer to change their expiration time, and even the price of the asset on expiry"? If you were to have evidence of this, I think instead of trying to bash the company online on wikipedia, you would send a proper complaint to CySEC, since these statements are all accusations of violations of the terms of Banc De Binary's regulation.

Also, can you prove that it is in fact Banc De Binary and not SpotOption exchange that controls the prices, and the "software"? Since SpotOption Exchange is regulated, can you please define the usage of "proper regulator"?

HistorianofRecenttimes, can you please explain the nature of your "issue" with Banc De Binary? BDBJack (talk) 00:41, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

To say that the winner is the entity which purchases the opposing option seems slightly misleading. There's no guarantee that there is such an entity, although like any bookmaker the company presumably tries to attract a spread of bets on the possible outcomes. Pinkbeast (talk) 17:13, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

Marketing Reference to NADEX

It is requested that edits be made to the following semi-protected articles:

D (edit · history · last · links · protection log)
R (edit · history · last · links · protection log)

In the section US regulatory issues there is a reference to NADEX. I do not believe that this is relevant to the article and the statement is simply a "marketing" piece for NADEX. BDBJack (talk) 18:29, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

Unless NADEX is the largest or best known exchange of that type (they aren't, afaik), I don't think we should reference them there. 165.214.11.73 (talk) 16:04, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

Er.... Nadex are the biggest legal, regulated exchange, and this is given for the sake of an example of what a proper exchange should look likeHistorianofRecenttimes (talk) 17:01, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

Banc De Binary is not a regulated exchange nor does it operate as one. It operates as a brokerage firm, which means that it is the "middleman" between the end user and the exchange. The following articles describe Banc De Binary as a broker:

Please note NADEX is not listed in any of these sources.

BDBJack (talk) 17:27, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

Those of the above "articles" I checked did not even remotely resemble reliable sources. One of them at least was honest enough to admit that they were paid by Banc de Binary and the other companies they "reviewed" - by all of them, without exception. Another rather obviously hosted profiles written by the companies themselves. More importantly, the sources currently given in the article explicitly contrast Banc de Binary to NADEX as the only entity that legally offers binary options in the US. Thus mentioning NADEX in this article is entirely justified. Huon (talk) 20:30, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

Restored some deleted citations, other issues.

Restored some deleted citations about CFTC, SEC, and US District Court actions.

Some data about names of people is cited to Whois information. That's a poor source. We need better sources on that.

Is Banc De Binary an exchange, a broker, or a bucket shop? --John Nagle (talk) 21:01, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

That's a difficult question. It's certainly not an exchange, and no exchange for binary options exists, for all I can tell. According to BDBJack, with whom I spoke via IRC, they are a broker, with customers betting not against Banc De Binary itself but against a company called SpotOption, which, for all I can tell, is indeed a bucket shop. Reliable sources for any of that are scarce. Huon (talk) 23:39, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

SpotOption itself says that Banc de Binary is one of their "brands". They also have "Banc de Swiss" and 33 more "brands". It's not clear whether these are affiliates, resellers, or business units of SpotOption, but they're all connected. Banc de Swiss, for example, looks a lot like Banc de Binary. . So does HD Options. They have a "white label program" and a "reseller program", and everything is hosted by SpotOption. Resellers just get to tweak the graphics a little.

Maybe we should have a SpotOption article and merge Banc de Binary into it. SpotOption is clearly the "mastermind" behind all this. There's also SpotOption Exchange, which appears to be the entity that takes the financial risk. Maybe. It's hard to tell. The whole thing is set up like an on-line casino, not a brokerage or an exchange. SpotOption even offers a slot machine for trading binary options. (Video: . Worth watching.) They call this "trading entertainment". John Nagle (talk) 03:38, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

The sources are all primary, but SpotOption Exchange lists Banc de Binary as an "associate".. So Banc de Binary isn't just licensing the software; they're reselling SpotOption Exchange. In the legal agreements from SpotOption, we find "The Company sets the prices to be used in binary options trading." and "The Company shall be the sole execution venue for the execution of its clients’ orders.". So the counter-party is SpotOption Exchange itself. There is no "exchange" here; other traders are not counter-parties. Technically, this is a bucket shop. John Nagle (talk) 18:24, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

Good point - I've added this into the intro. It seems quite relevant to point out that the company can set it's own prices and that they don't have to respond to realityHistorianofRecenttimes (talk) 17:15, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

That edit wasn't quite right. Spot Option Exchange sets the price of the option, not the asset. They don't have their own price for gold (one hopes). They have their own price for a binary option on what the price of gold will be at some future time. With ordinary options (on the CBOE, etc.) there's a buyer and a seller, who are both customers of the exchange. The exchange just matches up offers for puts and calls. The CBOE itself is not a party to the transaction. But Spot Option Exchange doesn't do that. They themselves are the other party in the transaction, and, as the "house", they get to set the odds. John Nagle (talk) 18:51, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Edit Request with updated information from the CFTC

It is requested that an edit be made to the semi-protected article at R. (edit · history · last · links · protection log)

I would like to have the following quotes updated to reflect correct information based on the articles below:

In the infobox

Oren Shabat Cohen, also known as Oren Shabat and Oren Laurent,

This statement is incorrect as Oren Laurent is legally known as "Oren Shabat Laurent" as shown by the sentence below:

Finally, the amended Complaint charges that during the relevant period Oren Shabat Laurent,

( http://www.cftc.gov/PressRoom/PressReleases/pr6923-14 )

In the introduction paragraph

Banc De Binary, formerly known as BO Systems Limited and also known as BDB Services Limited and ET Binary Options Ltd., is an Israeli-Cypriot based enterprise specializing in binary options (also known as fixed return options) on assets including commodities, stocks, indices, and foreign exchange.

This statement is incorrect as "Banc De Binary" is the operating / trade name of several companies as shown by the sentence below:

The amended Complaint charges that all four of the corporate Defendants operated as a common enterprise, each one individually and collectively, operating under the trade name “Banc de Binary.”

( http://www.cftc.gov/PressRoom/PressReleases/pr6923-14 )

Charges filed on 7 August in the US stated that Banc de Binary and Oren Shabat Cohen "may be criminally liable under the federal RICO statute".

While there WAS a document stating this, the charges currently pressed against all companies operating as Banc De Binary and Oren Laurent are civil, not criminal in nature as shown by the sentence below:

In its continuing litigation against the Defendants, the CFTC seeks civil monetary penalties, and other remedial ancillary relief, including restitution, disgorgement, and rescission and a permanent injunction preventing the Defendants from engaging in certain commodity options activity with U.S. customers.

( http://www.cftc.gov/PressRoom/PressReleases/pr6923-14 )

BDBJack (talk) 23:15, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

He may be legally known as that, but he does seem (per the other sources) to be "also" known as a great many things.

There was and is a document stating that they may be criminally liable, so I don't see that that statement is untrue. Pinkbeast (talk) 11:47, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

He may be known as many things, but there are few examples of an executive being listed in Misplaced Pages by their "also known as" names. I do not think his other names are relevant to an article about Banc De Binary. This information should be posted in an article on Oren Laurent.

This article is in reference to Banc De Binary, not the personal liabilities of Oren Laurent. An article on Oren Laurent should contain this information, but the fact that Oren may or may not be criminally liable as part of a law suite should either be moved to a section related to legal issues or should be moved to an article pertaining to Oren Laurent.

Also, documents, especially those dealing with legal proceedings, are often revised and updated with up-to-date information. While there was an article citing that Oren Laurent "may be criminally liable", the latest versions of the documents have been updated with corrected and pertinent information to the case. The statement that Oren Laurent "may be criminally liable" is neither pertinent to the case, nor is it pertinent to an article about Banc De Binary, nor is it correct any more.

BDBJack (talk) 12:04, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

Oren is only notable because of BdB; there is no article about him. Hence information about him must go here, and a potential liability arising from the business of BdB is clearly pertinent.

I don't see that "a civil case is now being brought" contradicts "may be criminally liable". Regulators often bring a civil case when that seems to have a better chance of success. Pinkbeast (talk) 14:54, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

The CFTC has not made further mention of the fact that Oren may be "criminally liable" in any of it's updated filings. The fact that a regulator may often bring a civil case when it seems that it has a better chance of success does not negate the face that there are and will be no criminal charges levied against Mr. Laurent as a result of litigation. Were such a regulator to start building a criminal case, they would most likely make note of it in further proceedings (which do not exist at this time). Essentially, what you're saying is that because a regulatory body filed a lawsuit against a company, the owner(s) could be criminally prosecuted. This would violate laws concerning Double jeopardy, thus Oren cannot be criminally liable.

The reason the CTFC inserted all Banc De Binary bodies is so that Banc De Binary could reach a settlement and not be further liable for the same charges in the future.

In regards to his relevance to the article, the precedent that you are making with including personal information about Oren Laurent in the article will allow us to also add personal information anyone who is related in any way shape or form to the article. If we are to consider this article to be an encyclopedic work, Oren Laurent should be referenced as the CEO. Any actions that Oren takes as CEO of the company are relevant to Banc De Binary, however personal information such as names he is known as or where he worked previously before working at Banc De Binary are not relevant and should be removed.

BDBJack (talk) 15:56, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

BDBJack you are incorrect to write that because of Double Jeopardy rules, Oren could not be convicted in criminal proceedings, if they were preceded by a civil case. This link clearly explains that under US Law he could indeed be tried twice. Double Jeopardy does not apply all cases. But in any case, why doesn't Oren simply go to the US and explain why Banc de Binary is innocent? Perhaps for the sake of clarity you could write here exactly where the NAF Hedge Fund is as it doesn't appear on any lists of New York companies.HistorianofRecenttimes (talk) 12:24, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

Were this an article about Oren Laurent, Oren's culpability legally could be discussed ad-nauseum. However since this is NOT an article about Oren Laurent, the whole discussion is a moot point. As far as why Oren doesn't go to the US to explain why Banc De Binary is innocent - that's what Lawyers who have much more experience in dealing with the intricacies of laws and regulations are for. And regarding NAF Hedge Fund, it seems to be a clerical error made by a PR company. The site which you are using as reference seems to be purely a work of Banc De Binary's PR department, and if the example of other sources which have been removed due to being pure "marketing material" holds, then this reference should also be removed.

BDBJack (talk) 12:43, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

The article does not say Laurent is, or may be, criminally liable. It says that the charges filed on 7 August 2013 in the US stated that. That is true and well-sourced. It also does not say there have been any criminal charges brought subsequently.

You should not add "personal information anyone (sic) who is related in any way shape or form to the article"; you have a conflict of interest. Pinkbeast (talk) 16:29, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

@Pinkbeast: The article may be well sources, how ever it is out of date. If you read the updated document (the most recent filing), you will find no such reference.

Relating to my conflict of interest - My COI is known and declared, however I do not see how this relates to the fact that Oren Laurent's personal information is not relevant to the article. His actions as CEO are relevant to the article, however information concerning his name and his aliases are not related to Banc De Binary and his operations as CEO.

BDBJack (talk) 21:13, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

I think most people would consider it pertinent that the CEO of a financial services organisation can't decide what his own name is and seems to have worked somewhere that doesn't exist. Pinkbeast (talk) 09:36, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

Blacklisted Links Found on Banc De Binary

Cyberbot II has detected links on Banc De Binary which have been added to the blacklist, either globally or locally. Links tend to be blacklisted because they have a history of being spammed or are highly inappropriate for Misplaced Pages. The addition will be logged at one of these locations: local or global If you believe the specific link should be exempt from the blacklist, you may request that it is white-listed. Alternatively, you may request that the link is removed from or altered on the blacklist locally or globally. When requesting whitelisting, be sure to supply the link to be whitelisted and wrap the link in nowiki tags. Please do not remove the tag until the issue is resolved. You may set the invisible parameter to "true" whilst requests to white-list are being processed. Should you require any help with this process, please ask at the help desk.

Below is a list of links that were found on the main page:

http://www.companydirectorcheck.com/soteris-flourentzou
Triggered by \bcompanydirectorcheck\.com\b on the local blacklist
http://www.companydirectorcheck.com/pieris-hadjipieris
Triggered by \bcompanydirectorcheck\.com\b on the local blacklist
http://www.companydirectorcheck.com/oren-shabat
Triggered by \bcompanydirectorcheck\.com\b on the local blacklist
http://www.companydirectorcheck.com/uri-katz
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From your friendly hard working bot.—cyberbot II _Online 11:12, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

Blacklisted Links Found on Banc De Binary

Below is a list of links that were found on the main page:

http://www.companydirectorcheck.com/oren-shabat
Triggered by \bcompanydirectorcheck\.com\b on the local blacklist
http://www.companydirectorcheck.com/pieris-hadjipieris
Triggered by \bcompanydirectorcheck\.com\b on the local blacklist
http://www.companydirectorcheck.com/soteris-flourentzou
Triggered by \bcompanydirectorcheck\.com\b on the local blacklist
http://www.companydirectorcheck.com/uri-katz
Triggered by \bcompanydirectorcheck\.com\b on the local blacklist
http://www.companydirectorcheck.com/yehezkel-shabat
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If you would like me to provide more information on the talk page, contact User:Cyberpower678 and ask him to program me with more info.

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Contested deletion

This page should not be speedily deleted because... (because its don't have right info. Delete it) --1.22.160.20 (talk) 13:35, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

Contested deletion

This page should not be speedily deleted because... This article is about a company that is the subject of current and serious legal action by the CTFC and SEC, making it noted and of great international interest. The company themselves have a huge presence online through their own PR team, making many claims and the Misplaced Pages article is the only truthful description of them --HistorianofRecenttimes (talk) 19:14, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

"the Misplaced Pages article is the only truthful description of them" i think in this case 'truth' is a very vague term. It's truth, but not the whole truth BDBJack (talk) 20:24, 13 May 2014 (UTC)

It's certainly notable enough to escape speedy deletion or proposed deletion. It might not pass WP:CORP, but that's an AfD question. Per WP:ILLCON, merely being crooked isn't enough to indicate notability. One possibility to merge to Binary_option#Regulation_and_compliance, which already has some discussions of binary trading operations in Cyprus. Comments? John Nagle (talk) 06:05, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

This is a bit odd because AFAIK no-one is proposing speedy deletion. Pinkbeast (talk) 09:36, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

@Pinkbeast: In revision https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Banc_De_Binary&oldid=608392127, @C.Fred: removed the request for speedy deletion.

@John Nagle: How would merging the articles work?

:::::Maybe not speedy deletion, but AfD seems reasonable for me per WP:CORP, may be even deleting the info and then merging with the discussion on binary options would be the best in my opinion. Please also note that most of the references don't have anything to do with the company or are from very doubtful websites.Lakratani (talk) 13:05, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

BDBJack (talk) 10:59, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

It does appear that as editors send by Banc de Binary have been unable to change this article, they hit on another plan, to attempt deletion. As the first 'Binary Options' company to face action by the CTFC and SEC it is very notable. Merging the article is a bad idea which would remove the details about Banc de Binary's reasons for problems with US regulators and thus remove the full picture of what has been going on in the world of unregulated online gaming. BTW, I checked the CYSEC list of regulated companies, why is it that Banc de Binary do not give a telephone number like all the others, surely this is pevidence that they're not really in Cyprus other than with a virtual office. HistorianofRecenttimes (talk) 20:01, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

@HistorianofRecenttimes: Regardless of their motive, there is an AfD discussion ongoing. That said, I've noted the account with the declared COI, and the SPAs have been noted in the AfD discussion. —C.Fred (talk) 21:05, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

@HistorianofRecenttimes: "It does appear that as editors send by Banc de Binary have been unable to change this article, they hit on another plan, to attempt deletion." - This seems to be quite an accusation - one which has no evidence. As for the motion to delete, I do support it because it would be beneficial to the company, but mostly because the article really has very little to do with the company and more to do with the relations between the company, SEC and CFTC. Were this an article with some substance I would be completely against deleting it. However it is being used as a place to voice all of your complaints about the company, a large part of them which are completely imagined. HistorianofRecenttimes, is there something that I can help you with? If it's something that you would like to keep private we can arrange another form of communication to help sort out what ever personal issues you have with the company. While uncommon, there is no reason that we cannot use this medium as a method of mediation - just tell us what your issues are. Regardless, the accusation that BDB has started spamming wikipedia to bring down a page should be sourced, not just thrown out there - same as calling us an unregulated gaming company.

Also, the fact that CySEC (which is not under our control) doesn't list our phone number isn't something that we ourselves can fix. In fact we have provided CySEC our phone number and even a chair and desk in our office. You are welcome to come check as well. The address is:

Kristelina Tower, 12 Arch. Makariou III Mesa Yeitonia Limassol, Cyprus Cyprus CY-4000

If you'd like to call us and confirm, there are over 50 phone numbers on the website which you can use to call us to set your appointment. You can also use:

Cyprus (Toll Free) +80 09 4543 Cyprus +357 2223 2365 Cyprus +357 2223 2366

Also, if you'd like some pictures, please ask. We will be happy to provide.

Sincerely, BDBJack (talk) 22:23, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

BDB Jack, two questions: (a). Are any other Binary Options company facing action by the CTFC and SEC?

(b). Is it true that the starting and expiring price of the binary options do not match the actual price of the asset, but are instead chosen by SpotOption and how big is this difference? If this is the case, are your customers really predicting the change in price of the asset; or are they predicting what price SpotOption will decide it will be? If this is true how are people really predicting the genuine price of the asset and does it not just become gambling?

I am referring to the SpotOption contract which discussed previously on the talk page and mentioned in the article.HistorianofRecenttimes (talk) 08:28, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

I think much of this discussion should be had either at the AFD (where pertinent), user talk pages, or off-Misplaced Pages. Even if BDBJack did answer those questions (and you may be leading the witness slightly), self-sourced answers are not really ideal. Is this actually leading up to any improvements to the page? Pinkbeast (talk) 10:25, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

Major makeover request

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Hi again, seeing that this page is somewhat very conflictive i've been working on an overall revamp of the make. I thought I would post the petition here before confirming this account and changing it myself. You can see my work on my sandbox here . Thanks :) Peluchon (talk) 16:35, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

Please do not turn this into a "spot the difference" competition - changes to the article should be incremental and discussed and agreed, or we are likely to have a Ping-Pong match where the entire article is pasted and reverted and pasted again. Arjayay (talk) 16:52, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

I have closed the {{edit semi-protected}} request as the comment above indicates there is no consensus for the request at this time. I did this as a housekeeping action only; I have no comment one way or the other on the merits of the request. —KuyaBriBri 19:37, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

~~:::I completely understand the comments. I will try then to apply the changes section by section on the page itself so we will get a better result afterwards.Peluchon (talk) 07:34, 29 May 2014 (UTC)~~

This proposed new version is a very obvious whitewash. What's your connection with BdB? Pinkbeast (talk) 12:16, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

Agreed. It contains a big chunk of material on the theory of binary options, the Black-Scholes model (which really doesn't apply on the time scale of minutes where Banc de Binary operates), and other filler which pushes the bad news about Banc de Binary far down in the article. Also, this is from an editor with one day of editing history, which, given the history of the article, suggests a sockpuppet. --John Nagle (talk) 19:28, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

I have come. This subject shall be saved. Continue discussion. Okteriel (talk) 20:33, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

Note this edit on Jimbo's talk page regarding paid editing for this article. --NeilN 18:01, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

Saw this article mentioned on the aforemention Wales talk page. In examining this article, which is currently protected at the present time, it does stand out that it is largely negative. However, that appears to reflect the reliable sourcing. The only thing at all questionable is the Better Business Bureau rating, but I see from past noticeboard discussions that (a bit surprisingly) BBB ratings are allowed. Coretheapple (talk) 18:23, 4 June 2014 (UTC)
This article is the poster child as to why paid editing fails horribly sometimes. Whitewashed article is created, then is fixed by other editors. When it is realised that the article is going to be negative towards the company (because that's what the majority of reliable sources say), said paid editors and their paymasters try to delete it. Unlucky. Black ~~Kite~~ kite (talk) 18:50, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

Somebody suggested that the US regulatory section is all primary sources. This Financial Times article should fix that problem and should be placed as a ref immediately after the first line of the second paragraph in that section. Ref only formatted as

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/double+jeopardy
http://www.cysec.gov.cy/licence_members_1_en.aspx
Meyer, Gregory; Massoudi, Arash (6 June 2013). "US regulators sue binary options broker". Financial Times. Retrieved 4 June 2014.

I'd also suggest removing the awards section. These are subpar awards from subpar sources, the type that anybody can buy if they want to. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 21:31, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

TIME to choose a version

{{edit request}} Admin, please read the reasons I'm providing below for replacing the current version with Okteriel's draft, and perform the replacement the moment that community consensus demonstrates the need. BLP and V require immediate attention. Okteriel (talk) 12:12, 6 June 2014 (UTC) The first request was declined, so it appears necessary to start listing further article problems in detail rather than handle this all at one go. Trusting your patience. Okteriel (talk) 13:17, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

It's actually simple. Mr Oren Laurent has expressed that too much policy noncompliance has been going on here and that it needs to cease just as certainly as it would die out if it were slander; and he has stated that he greatly desires the community to reach consensus about its disposition. Okteriel has posted three drafts for community consideration. The community should choose a draft promptly and wisely and all encouragement to this effect should be applied. Okteriel (talk) 12:12, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

Okteriel's summary of current consensus

Option 1 (Peluchon): Contains lots of binary options data. Supported by 1: Peluchon (now judged a banned sock).
Option 2 (Okteriel) (current): Contains only text found in both other drafts. Supported by 1: Okteriel (possible COI disclosed above).
Option 3 (HistorianofRecenttimes): Contains four identities in lead and much questionable. Supported by 1: HistorianofRecenttimes (judged a SPA).

Since the list above is part of my own comment, please recommend any changes to it below, thanks. Okteriel (talk) 12:19, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

Actually, the first consensus to arise seems to be that this data collection is the wrong approach. I am leaving it here for now because I see no evidence of any other working approach being used to fix this article. Feel free to state support for any draft whatever (rather than opposition). Okteriel (talk) 18:22, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

Housekeeping detail

It looks like in his wisdom Okteriel (q.v.) played a trick on us all. Instead of posting all three drafts himself, he somehow influenced Jim1138 to post the third draft instead, and he made it look like Jim1138 was merely being rude to a newcomer who was in the middle of self-reverting discussion drafts without an "under construction" tag, who also stated intent to discuss it at talk. Then it looks like because of an "edit conflict" Okteriel instantly decided to change strategy sarcastically and post his own version again (the second of three drafts) in lieu of posting the third draft, and acting smarmily as if it were also the draft of HistorianofRecenttimes but only "slightly edited". But of course he did it in such a way and with such an edit summary that it looks like he merely cut and pasted the "wrong" draft when it came to the third one. (This is all the funnier because he had me fooled too because when I made the third posting I totally thought it was the "right" third draft and that I had confirmed it, but he somehow clouded my judgment to make me think that when he was really reposting the second draft.) This kind of wisdom often befuddles me but I rationalize that his point must have been that "Historian"'s draft is so obviously a problem that cutting it completely back to Okteriel's draft is only minor. At any rate this is really all minor, but very interesting, background. Okteriel (talk) 12:19, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

Community comment

(Nominator:) Strongly support Okteriel. I wish I could speak neutrally about these. Peluchon's is an unsourced whitewash that is really an attempt to merge binary options here. Okteriel's is a sample of showing only the text that everybody agrees on and is clearly not meant to be his own work or bold draft. I will userfy it and work on what it should look like in full wiki style. Historian's is a SPA reliance on wobbly and invalid sources. Historian's also has one really giant unusual problem: it claims four entities are all the same entity via "also known as" when BDBJack credibly states, two months ago and without any responsive answer to his disclosed COI edit request, that these are four related corporations with individual charters that cannot legally be called "also known as". As long as we can't even agree what entity this topic is about, the current draft must be changed.

There is evidence of all kinds of other BLP and V disputes, which were only temporarily settled by silence and nobody taking action. I am breaking the silence. I will list disputes in separate sections as I find them. Now normally I understand that protected articles in such a hostility should be stubbed so that the "ball" is taken away from all the editors at the same time. It appears Okteriel wants a compromise where only the disputed text is stubbed out, but if there is any community support for a total stub that can be added to the options above as soon as someone writes up a draft of one.

As long as the drafts are disputed, policy requires that Historian's draft must not be the one protected and Okteriel's draft should be placed. Thank you. Okteriel (talk) 12:19, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

I have declined your edit request. A version does not have to be chosen. Once the article comes off of full protection, regular editors (not SPA's) can work on the current text. --NeilN 12:58, 6 June 2014 (UTC) By the way, referring to yourself in the third person is rather odd. --NeilN 12:59, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

I thought so too, I think I'm cleared to stop doing so now. Okteriel (talk) 13:12, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

(ec) Thank you for being a first responder, Neil, yes, it is not necessary for the community to choose a draft, as it could simply decline to perform its duty. But someone will do the community's duty. And even if I were an SPA I could request the removal of unsourced misleading information such as the identity of the corporations in the lead. I don't want to be accused of being disruptive if I need to go sentence by sentence; I thought it was obvious that if the article has been so badly managed that we don't even know what corps are or are not the subject, it needs a cutback. I am preparing to make a list of issues for separate discussion. But I hope you can see that the present version has also been created by a SPA and the present bias does need rapid response. I am available for more discussion, as I don't see why your statements rebut in any way the presumption toward V and BLP enforcement. At any rate I came back to change the template to "edit protected" but that only applies for noncontroversy and right now you and I can handle a D of a BRD cycle. Before we change the template again, I hope you can continue because my questions are not answered and dialogue is appropriate. Okteriel (talk) 13:12, 6 June 2014 (UTC) Oh, and, while you declined the request, do you "support Historian", or "abstain", please? I would hope you would not support linking corporations as AKA's when there is no source for it but there is a credible and aging edit request to the contrary? Okteriel (talk) 13:15, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

I don't support your entire proposition. What you should do is start new sections detailing specific changes to the current version (i.e., change "x" to "y", remove "z", add "w") and get consensus for each change before making a formal edit requests. --NeilN 13:22, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

Great. I hope you can stay with me. But there's only one problem with your suggestion: BDBJack has already made exactly such a section two months ago, at the top of this page, and has gotten no answer. In keeping with your suggestion, and, under BRD, could you comment on his proposed change please? Okteriel (talk) 13:30, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

Okteriel, could you please explain why your preferred version does not mention BDB's legal troubles in the US in the "regulation" section, despite the existence of reliable third-party sources of which you were well aware? Citing their own press release in the "awards" section instead is not an appropriate substitute. Huon (talk) 13:37, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

Agree with your last sentence in the long term. I hurried to post boldly only consensus text (not my preferred draft), before I research contested text. I skipped US section header because the header itself was not agreed. I didn't mention "legal troubles" because that is biased language IIRC; there is some consensus in that all versions contain the BDB statement, but there is not agreement on how the SEC side should be stated, and, no, in my rush I didn't verify the RS there or determine if they were correctly represented. Remember I only had 4 minutes before I was welcomed. Okteriel (talk) 18:39, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

BDBJack did get responses resulting in "no consensus". It didn't help he had a massive WP:COI. --NeilN 13:41, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

I don't think his COI is the issue, and someone saying "no consensus" but nobody closing the request is not a "result". But what is the issue? If the problem is that nobody can deny BDBJack but nobody wants to help him, that is an apathy bias (not an argument), which somebody should boldly step in and address.

Let's put it in policy terms. BDBJack has a CFTC source that authoritatively amends the article's CFTC source. The article lead is clearly wrong. The identity of a corporation is an open-and-shut legal matter. Even if I had COI, it would not prevent me from properly deleting the incorrect clause, which was part of my editing, because the V case is so clear. How could either of you say the clause should be retained just because nobody wants to do it? Shouldn't I renew the "edit protected" template and appeal to an admin?

To Okteriel, please read Misplaced Pages:Conflict of interest closely. May I ask if you are a paid editor? Since you say that the business owner says that we must do something, it seems that way. Also, are you familiar with the SEC injunction ruled on in the Las Vegas court? If you are just trying to place an advert onto Misplaced Pages, please don't waste our time - it is simply against the rules. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 14:50, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

Of course you may ask the ($10,000) question (see Coretheapple below); I'm glad it was you who asked, Smallbones. I am preparing an answer to appear on the proper page. For the immediate nonce, all editors must take what I did disclose in good faith and must consider my edits on their merits. I'm particularly glad that I've brought community to start fixing this failed article. Like I said I haven't had time to know the exact status of the court cases, I usually research any court case more thoroughly before rendering my own judgment on it. Okteriel (talk) 18:56, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

On Jimbo's talk page it was revealed that editors were being actively solicited for this article, specifically to engage in precisely the reversion to a whitewashed version being proposed here, and that a payment of the five figures was offered. ("the ad was to rewrite Banc De Binary with provided text (an older version of the page)") If you (Okteriel) are that person, you need to disclose it. Coretheapple (talk) 14:56, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

I never proposed whitewash (i.e., Peluchon's draft). I proposed cutback or stub as per WP:ATTACK, which is close to a perfect fit; BLP applies on a sliding scale to small corps, and in this case it was decided that the CEO is a nonnotable redirect, so anything that reflects badly on the principals should be treated similarly to BLP to some degree. Only good sourced balanced data should appear. I think the rest of your question should probably be referred to my talk also. As near as I can tell, all talk onwiki about five figures is rumormongering and fails V (insofar as it applies to project space). (It just occurred to me, maybe Mr Laurent doesn't have the money but he can certainly string out a cheap publicity stunt without it. Anyway there are many explanations and no hard facts.) Deferring to a longer answer later, I think WP:DUCK applies. Tell me, am I editing constructively or not by asking that the article's subject be rightly legally identified according to authoritative sources? (I will be happy to add more other constructive edits to my edit history but I don't know how that would help much.) Sure we can talk court cases, after we know what corporation(s) the court case is about.

Will anyone agree with me that the clause that CFTC corrected last month can now be corrected by us this month? C'mon, that's easy. Okteriel (talk) 18:56, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

BLP violations

It's a BLPTALK violation if someone says something that makes a corporate principal look stupid or criminal without sourcing. Pretty simple. As above, for small corporations, especially when the CEO redirects to the corp, there's almost all the latitude of full BLP. I'm going to strike through (but not delete) some of the most egregious violations of this application. Please feel free to differ and discuss. Okteriel (talk) 19:11, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

Rescue the article!

It is requested that an edit be made to the semi-protected article at Banc De Binary. (edit · history · last · links · protection log)

Please add {{WikiProject Article Rescue Squadron}} and {{underconstruction}} to the top of the page. Since it is now an AfD again (not to mention poorly written), it qualifies for WikiProject attention; and the way in which the protection was applied itself is proof that the article is in flux and should not be adverted as a consensus draft. (By the way, I agree with the protection.) This is straightforward and it is necessary that the V and BLP issues be vetted by additional contributors (or by any contributors who know of them but are not answering them). Okteriel (talk) 19:35, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

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