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This article represents the work of many contributors and much negotiation to find consensus for an accurate and complete representation of the topic. Newcomers to Misplaced Pages and this article may find that it's easy to commit a faux pas. That's OK — everybody does it! You'll find a list of a few common ones you might try to avoid here. Misplaced Pages policy notes for new editors: A common objection made often by new arrivals is that the article presents ID in an unsympathetic light and that criticism of ID is too extensive or violates Misplaced Pages's Neutral Point of View policy (WP:NPOV). The sections of the WP:NPOV that apply directly to this article are: NPOV: Fringe theories and pseudoscience (WP:PSCI) NPOV: Undue weight (WP:UNDUE) NPOV: Making necessary assumptions (WP:MNA) NPOV: Giving "equal validity" (WP:GEVAL). The contributors to the article continually strive to adhere to these to the letter. Also, splitting the article into sub-articles is governed by the content forking guidelines. These policies have guided the shape and content of the article, and new arrivals are strongly encouraged to become familiar with them prior to raising objections on this page or adding content to the article. Other important policies guiding the article's content are No Original Research (WP:NOR) and Cite Your Sources (WP:CITE). Tempers can and have flared here. All contributors are asked to please respect Misplaced Pages's policy No Personal Attacks (WP:NPA) and to abide by consensus (WP:CON). This talk page is to discuss the text, photographs, format, grammar, etc of the article itself and not the inherent worth of Intelligent Design. See WP:NOT. If you wish to discuss or debate the validity of intelligent design or promote intelligent design please do so at talk.origins or other fora. This "Discussion" page is only for discussion on how to improve the Misplaced Pages article. Any attempts at trolling, using this page as a soapbox, or making personal attacks may be deleted at any time.
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view · edit Frequently asked questions Many of these questions arise frequently on the talk page concerning Intelligent design (ID). To view an explanation to the answer, click the link to the right of the question. Q1: Should ID be equated with creationism? A1: ID is a form of creationism, and many sources argue that it is identical. U.S. District Judge John E. Jones III ruled that it "cannot uncouple itself from its creationist, and thus religious, antecedents", and Phillip E. Johnson, one of the founders of the ID movement, stated that the goal of intelligent design is to cast creationism as a scientific concept. Not everyone agrees with this. For example, philosopher Thomas Nagel argues that intelligent design is very different from creation science (see "Public Education and Intelligent Design", Philosophy and Public Affairs, Vol. 36, no. 2, 2008). However, this perspective is not representative of most reliable sources on the subject. Although intelligent design proponents do not name the designer, they make it clear that the designer is the Abrahamic god. In drafts of the 1989 high-school level textbook Of Pandas and People, almost all derivations of the word "creation", such as "creationism", were replaced with the words "intelligent design". Taken together, the Kitzmiller ruling, statements of ID's main proponents, the nature of ID itself, and the history of the movement, make it clear—Discovery Institute's protestations to the contrary notwithstanding—that ID is a form of creationism, modified to appear more secular than it really is. This is in line with the Discovery Institute's stated strategy in the Wedge Document. Q2: Should ID be characterized as science? A2: The majority of scientists state that ID should not be characterized as science. This was the finding of Judge Jones during the Kitzmiller hearing, and is a position supported by the overwhelming majority of the scientific community. Scientists say that ID cannot be regarded as scientific theory because it is untestable even in principle. A scientific theory predicts the outcome of experiments. If the predicted outcome is not observed, the theory is false. There is no experiment which can be constructed which can disprove intelligent design. Unlike a true scientific theory, it has absolutely no predictive capability. It doesn't run the risk of being disproved by objective experiment. Q3: Should the article cite any papers about ID? A3: According to Misplaced Pages's sourcing policy, Misplaced Pages:Verifiability, papers that support ID should be used as primary sources to explain the nature of the concept. The article as it stands does not cite papers that support ID because no such papers have been published in peer-reviewed scientific journals. Behe himself admitted this under cross examination, during the Kitzmiller hearings, and this has been the finding of scientists and critics who have investigated this claim. In fact, the only article published in a peer-reviewed scientific journal that made a case for intelligent design was quickly withdrawn by the publisher for having circumvented the journal's peer-review standards. Broadly speaking, the articles on the Discovery Institute list all fail for any of four reasons: The journal has no credible editorial and peer-review process, or the process was not followed The journal is not competent for the subject matter of the article The article is not genuinely supportive of ID The article is published in a partisan ID journal such as PCID If you wish to dispute the claim that ID has no support in peer-reviewed publications, then you will need to produce a reliable source that attests to the publication of at least one paper clearly supportive of ID that underwent rigorous peer-review in a journal on a relevant field. Q4: Is this article unfairly biased against ID? A4: There have been arguments over the years about the article's neutrality and concerns that it violates Misplaced Pages's neutral point of view policy. The NPOV policy does not require all points of view to be represented as equally valid, but it does require us to represent them. The policy requires that we present ID from the point of view of disinterested philosophers, biologists and other scientists, and that we also include the views of ID proponents and opponents. We should not present minority views as though they are majority ones, but we should also make sure the minority views are correctly described and not only criticized, particularly in an article devoted to those views, such as this one. Q5: Is the Discovery Institute a reliable source? A5: The Discovery Institute is a reliable primary source about its views on ID, though it should not be used as an independent secondary source. The core mission of the Discovery Institute is to promote intelligent design. The end purpose is to duck court rulings that eliminated religion from the science classroom, by confusing people into conflating science and religion. In light of this, the Discovery Institute cannot be used as a reference for anything but their beliefs, membership and statements. Questionable sources, according to the sourcing policy, WP:V, are those with a poor reputation for fact-checking or with no editorial oversight, and should only be used in articles about themselves. Articles about such sources should not repeat any contentious claims the source has made about third parties, unless those claims have also been published by reliable sources. See also: WP:RS and WP:V Q6: Are all formulations of intelligent design pseudoscience? Was William Paley doing pseudoscience when he argued that natural features should be attributed to "an intelligent and designing Creator"? A6: While the use of the phrase intelligent design in teleological arguments dates back to at least the 1700s, Intelligent Design (ID) as a term of art begins with the 1989 publication of Of Pandas and People. Intelligent design is classified as pseudoscience because its hypotheses are effectively unfalsifiable. Unlike Thomas Aquinas and Paley, modern ID denies its religious roots and the supernatural nature of its explanations. For an extended discussion about definitions of pseudoscience, including Intelligent Design, see Pigliucci, Massimo; Boudry, Maarten, eds. (2013), Philosophy of Pseudoscience: Reconsidering the Demarcation Problem, University of Chicago, ISBN 978-0-226-05179-6. Notes and references ^ Phillip Johnson: "Our strategy has been to change the subject a bit so that we can get the issue of Intelligent Design, which really means the reality of God, before the academic world and into the schools." Johnson 2004. Christianity.ca. Let's Be Intelligent About Darwin. "This isn't really, and never has been a debate about science. It's about religion and philosophy." Johnson 1996. World Magazine. Witnesses For The Prosecution. "So the question is: "How to win?" That's when I began to develop what you now see full-fledged in the "wedge" strategy: "Stick with the most important thing"—the mechanism and the building up of information. Get the Bible and the Book of Genesis out of the debate because you do not want to raise the so-called Bible-science dichotomy. Phrase the argument in such a way that you can get it heard in the secular academy and in a way that tends to unify the religious dissenters. That means concentrating on, "Do you need a Creator to do the creating, or can nature do it on its own?" and refusing to get sidetracked onto other issues, which people are always trying to do." Johnson 2000. Touchstone magazine. Berkeley's Radical An Interview with Phillip E. Johnson "I have built an intellectual movement in the universities and churches that we call The Wedge, which is devoted to scholarship and writing that furthers this program of questioning the materialistic basis of science."…"Now the way that I see the logic of our movement going is like this. The first thing you understand is that the Darwinian theory isn't true. It's falsified by all of the evidence and the logic is terrible. When you realize that, the next question that occurs to you is, well, where might you get the truth?"…"I start with John 1:1. In the beginning was the word. In the beginning was intelligence, purpose, and wisdom. The Bible had that right. And the materialist scientists are deluding themselves." Johnson 1999. Reclaiming America for Christ Conference. How the Evolution Debate Can Be Won Dembski: "Intelligent design is just the Logos theology of John's Gospel restated in the idiom of information theory," Touchstone Magazine. Volume 12, Issue4: July/August, 1999 Wedge Document Discovery Institute, 1999. "embers of the national ID movement insist that their attacks on evolution aren't religiously motivated, but, rather, scientific in nature." … "Yet the express strategic objectives of the Discovery Institute; the writings, careers, and affiliations of ID's leading proponents; and the movement’s funding sources all betray a clear moral and religious agenda." Inferior Design Chris Mooney. The American Prospect, August 10, 2005. "ID's rejection of naturalism in any form logically entails its appeal to the only alternative, supernaturalism, as a putatively scientific explanation for natural phenomena. This makes ID a religious belief." Expert Witness Report Barbara Forrest Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District, April 2005. Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District, 04 cv 2688 (December 20, 2005)., pp. 31 – 33. ^ Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District, 04 cv 2688 (December 20, 2005)., 4. Whether ID is Science, p. 87 "Science and Policy: Intelligent Design and Peer Review". American Association for the Advancement of Science. 2007. Retrieved 2007-07-19. Brauer, Matthew J.; Forrest, Barbara; Gey, Steven G. (2005). "Is It Science Yet?: Intelligent Design Creationism and the Constitution" (PDF). Washington University Law Quarterly. 83 (1). Retrieved 2007-07-18. ID leaders know the benefits of submitting their work to independent review and have established at least two purportedly "peer-reviewed" journals for ID articles. However, one has languished for want of material and quietly ceased publication, while the other has a more overtly philosophical orientation. Both journals employ a weak standard of "peer review" that amounts to no more than vetting by the editorial board or society fellows. Isaak, Mark (2006). "Index to Creationist Claims". The TalkOrigins Archive. With some of the claims for peer review, notably Campbell and Meyer (2003) and the e-journal PCID, the reviewers are themselves ardent supporters of intelligent design. The purpose of peer review is to expose errors, weaknesses, and significant omissions in fact and argument. That purpose is not served if the reviewers are uncritical "Statement from the Council of the Biological Society of Washington". Biological Society of Washington. Retrieved 2007-07-19. See also Sternberg peer review controversy. Wilkins, John (9 November 2013), "The origin of "intelligent design" in the 18th and 19th centuries", Evolving Thoughts (blog) Matzke, Nick (2006), "Design on Trial: How NCSE Helped Win the Kitzmiller Case", Reports of the National Center for Science Education, 26 (1–2): 37–44 "Report of John F. Haught, Ph. D" (PDF). Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District (NCSE). 2005-04-01. Retrieved 29 August 2013.

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Proposal for the opening words: for discussion

In the recent discussions about the lead I gave a proposal for opening lines which I think has none of the various issues that various editors seem to have with not only the current one, but all the many constantly changing ones of the past. I know of no clear problem with the proposal and certainly no conflict with sources or policies. Here it is:

Intelligent design, broadly understood, is a belief that nature's order results chiefly from "purposeful design by an intelligent being rather than from chance and other undirected natural processes". But more specifically intelligent design is the term used to refer not to traditional "arguments from design", but rather to pseudoscientific claims that this concept can be worked into "scientific theories", that should be considered valid alternative to mainstream scientific theories such as especially evolutionary theory.

Did anyone else spot any problems with it? It makes it clear that there is a broader meaning, but it also makes it clear that there is a specific meaning which is frequently referred to as pseudoscientific. There are many ways to skin a cat of course, but no recent versions of the lead have done this. Please note I am not asking for an election, but rationales. Elections on this article consistently attract editors who are not following the details of such discussions, and can not therefore lead to a stable lead. Hence my less ambitious question to start with: is there anything clearly wrong with this proposal? --Andrew Lancaster (talk) 07:57, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

Why "broadly understood"? Is that because ID is being defined in a more general manner than the term in common use? It appears that once again the central issue being raised is whether this article is focused on a centuries-old form of argument, or on the modern ID movement. If the former, then a general dictionary might be a suitable source for the definition, while if the latter, the existing wording (straight from the horse's mouth) is best. The proposed second sentence is unnecessarily complex because it is based on what ID is not. Johnuniq (talk) 09:56, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

Johnuniq, actually I personally do not mind so much what the article is about (unlike most editors of this article). But we do know that the term ID has a confusing range of uses, and therefore my concern is disambiguating. This is not just a random interest of mine, but a concern based on looking at the long term pattern of debates and edits to the opening lines, which all seem to be trying to avoid confronting this relatively simple issue. If we know that our article uses a term in a way different from many or most similar respectable tertiary sources, then we know we should be careful.

My understanding of the current local consensus is that the article is mainly aiming to be about a narrow meaning, not the broad meaning. (This means Misplaced Pages takes an approach quite different to most tertiary sources with similar encyclopedic aims, but this is not my main concern.)

But note that it also seems quite clear that we our local consensus is trying to do something very difficult for a committee of editors, because none of our sources really seem to stick to strict narrow meanings of "intelligent design" like a technical term, but rather there is a spectrum of meanings which (I think) can not all be well-understood without understanding other parts of the "spectrum" which are nearly always discussed in the same contexts. So we can not simply say that we have a simple choice between one meaning and another. We can not simply isolate out a new definition, unless we want to allow originality.

Here is a new wording to consider:

Intelligent design, broadly understood, is a belief that nature's order results chiefly from "purposeful design by an intelligent being rather than from chance and other undirected natural processes". But more specifically, intelligent design is associated with controversial claims that such purposeful design can be the basis of valid "scientific theories", that give competing alternatives to mainstream science, such as especially evolutionary theory in biology.

Does this fix the problems? Create any new ones? Not sure which one I prefer. --Andrew Lancaster (talk) 11:27, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

I have two problems with this. (1) "Controversial" may give the impression that there is a scientific controversy. And "controversial" is, well, I wish I could be more diplomatic about it, but ... "controversial" is a WP:Weasel word, or else a contentious WP:Label. (2) Others may differ, but the wording about "basis of ... theories" and "competing alternatives" to me may suggest that ID does not only claim that there is a basis or alternative, but that ID describes a basis or alternative. Most readers would think that claiming that something exists entails a description of what it is that exists. TomS TDotO (talk) 12:59, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

The suggested rewrite does not fit the rest of the article. When I think of pseudoscience, ID is the paradigm. I think the current wording is fine and based on sources. --I am One of Many (talk) 18:20, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

Another attempt to turn the article topic into the generic argument from design, rather than this specific topic, an issue well covered by the disambiguation header. The basis is a tertiary source, one particular dictionary definition which lacks the detail and clarification expected from a secondary source, and doesn't say anything about "broadly understood". The same dictionary seems to lack a definition for argument from design or teleological argument, so it looks inadequate as a source on the topic, and there's no reason for us to quote it without attribution. As Johnuniq says, the definition currently quoted is the one specific to this topic area. The remaining wording is confusing or muddled: "that should be considered valid alternative" is misleading. So, I don't think these suggestions work as an introductory sentence. With better sourcing something could work later in the lead when clarifying the relationship of ID to the generic design argument, though note that ID includes other arguments. . dave souza, talk 18:27, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

More or less agree with Dave souza regarding the proposed change in wording proposed. There is, maybe, at least theoretically, a question as to whether there might be some form of inherent systemic bias in assuming a description from within the scientific establishment of the West, which often has, at least implicitly, a tendency toward Scientism which might itself be considered a bias. This might particularly be the case in issues relating to the broad field of the interaction between science and religion (or science and worldviews which differ from those of the often broadly Western scientific establishment). And there is, at least to me as someone who hasn't studied the field extensively, a possibility that in a sense both the possibly "scientism"-biased scientific community may at times make errors of inclusion or exclusion in what is or is not ID for purposes of proselytization, and, maybe, incidents when some proponents of broadly pseudoscientific ideas perhaps misrepresent themselves as ID for some purposes of their own. That sort of thing is known to happen in what might be broadly called the area of Christianity as well.

Having said all that, I don't know exactly which sources would be free of such potential bias. Having gone to WorldCat just now, and looked in their topic "intelligent design (teleology), I find Culture wars: an encyclopedia of issues, viewpoints, and voices, M. E. Sharpe, 2010, Science, religion, and society: an encyclopedia of history, culture, and controversy, M. E. Sharpe, 2007, Icons of evolution: an encyclopedia of people, evidence, and controversies, Greenwood, 2008, and Evolution, creationism, and intelligent design, Greenwood, 2010, which maybe along with the Encyclopedia of Science and Religion seem to me to be maybe the closest things to what might (maybe, I haven't checked reviews) be most likely to come at the issue of ID from neither a pro-religious nor pro-scientism approach. Maybe it might be useful to check them, and the reviews of them? I dunno, and I'll stop butting in now. John Carter (talk) 17:15, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

Individuals are free to disagree with me here, but I get the (possibly unfounded) impression that maybe the best way to go regarding the first few sentences regarding a topic at the interaction of science and religion might be to use language similar to that of the only reference work I know of which so far as I can tell seems to explicitly try to be NPOV between the two, the Encyclopedia of Religion and Science. Here are the beginning sentences of their relevant articles. I would of course agree that it would make perfect sense in perhaps maybe the 3rd or 4th sentence to say something to the effect that it tries to present itself in a scientific light, despite the fact that the specialists in the relevant branches of science who do not seem to have some sort of investment in what might broadly be called religious beliefs lend very little, if any, credence to the supposed science of these proposals. I think it might also be relevant to check the Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Skepticism/Encyclopedic articles, which doesn't have a specific article regarding ID but does have one regarding "Creation science" and see if it offers any sort of definition of the term ID. There are other reference sources which presumably deal with this topic in both pro-religious and pro-science (sometimes specifically agnostic/atheistic science) reference books, and to me anyway the best way to determine what definition we use is to look at the existing academic reference sources and look to see what sort of definitions they use. John Carter (talk) 21:53, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

Basically no, we shouldn't start a sentence with anything as fuzzy as 'broadly understood' or a reference a dic def. "Broadly understood"? By whom? Not to mention that such a lead would fail to do the purpose of a lead, which is to summarise the article. Guettarda (talk) 22:49, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

I completely oppose the proposed rewording of the beginning of the lead. ID is pseudoscience, does anyone here seriously contest that statement and if so, on what basis? Therefore the article needs to state that fact right up front. The proposed rewordings introduces weasel words, gives opportunity for uninformed readers to get entirely the wrong idea about the acceptance of ID in the scientific community and veers way too far into WP:UNDUE territory. I am tired of the relentless campaign being waged by a few editors here that appear to be trying to water down any perceived criticism of ID and who seem to want to give it way more credence than it deserves. It is time to stop this. - Nick Thorne 01:10, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

I echo every word in Nick Thorne's comment above, especially the last part: It is time to stop this. Regards. Gaba 05:05, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

@Gaba P and Nick Thorne, your posts on this article are consistently inappropriate in a straightforward way. If you are annoyed by this type of discussion take a break. Please cease posting off topic ad hominem posts here which are purely designed to block discussion.

@Guettarda, the distinction between broad and narrow definitions is clearly not "fuzzy", but rather simple. If you are saying that this distinction is not found in our sources, that raises the issues of whether any sources clearly define distinct the narrow meaning WP uses, as opposed to the clear broad meaning we can find in things like dictionaries. I am trying to find a solution that Misplaced Pages can handle, but there are several ways to skin a cat, and I have pointed out before that there really is a strong case for saying that this article will never be able to distinguish itself, clearly from being the article about the intelligent design movement. (Unless we use original research.) I'll put it another way: if the problem with my proposal is that it assumes there is a narrow meaning and a broad meaning, then this has to logically be a problem with the whole way the current version of the article is made.

@TomS TDotO. The word controversial is in only one of the above two drafts. I think it is optional. I do not understand your second concern.

@Dave. With all due respect your last sentence shows that you understand that I am not trying to change the topic which means you know that your first sentence is misleading. You are clearly (as usual) distorting me and the sources and the discussions above. Can you please stop that? Searching for something concrete in your post I only find insinuations about side issues. We know, for example, that the broad definition is not only found in that one dictionary. I have already suggested in recent discussion that we should collect a few tertiary definitions in order to see what is really a "common term" (not order to use them as sources for details). And you say a sentence is misleading without explaining why. Also see my reply to Guettarda.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 07:00, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

"It is time to stop this" seems about right. The opening paragraph appears to have been rather well crafted, from the mainstream scientific pov as required, and I am perplexed as to the need for any change at all, let alone a total rewrite. No justification for such a thing. -Roxy the dog (resonate) 08:28, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

Yes it is time to stop this. There is clear consensus for the existing lead which needs no further tinkering with.--Charles (talk) 09:12, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

First of all, I agree with "it's time to stop this". I am only responding to a request for clarification. ID is the claim that there is a theory. (In mathematical jargon, it is an existence statement, like there is a solution to this equation, without providing a solution. This is different from a constructive statement thus-and-so is a solution to this equation.) I believe that layman may construe the ID claim that there is a theory as, rather, "ID is a theory, which is not the case. (I believe that all careful writers follow.) TomS TDotO (talk) 10:39, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

I agree that ID is not a theory it merely a view. That is one reason it has no testable predictions that can be derived from it. I am One of Many (talk) 16:35, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

TomS TDotO, so doesn't the first version cover both your concerns?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 09:10, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

I also agree with "it's time to stop this". There is no sound argument that a change is needed in the lead. The proposed leads change the meaning of the lead in ways that are not consistent with the article. There is clear consensus that no change is needed in the lead for now, so I think we are done here. I am One of Many (talk) 16:35, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

All of the posts since my reply seem blissfully unaware of what they are replying to. Why would that be? I think it is obvious that one of the biggest problems this article has is lazy talk page posts, which confuse and distort and waste space. Please everyone wake up: not every criticism of this article is a questioning of mainstream science. Please read what you are replying to or else do not post here.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 07:24, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

No, I think that all of the posts since your previous one are saying words to the effect that "We don't agree with you, Andrew, please move on." -Roxy the dog (resonate) 12:08, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

No, we know what is going on. And most of the people here have already decided to ignore any of your posts. Its time to move on Andrew. I appreciate your contributions to many other sections of wikipedia. But Intelligent Design and the Teleological argument are not those sectors. I suggest you indeed move on from these subjects. NathanWubs (talk) 13:18, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

^ Yep. Regards. Gaba 17:13, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

Please let it go. Johnuniq (talk) 23:34, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

"We know what is going on". What then? I would like to know. Apparently I did not get the memo. :) Some possible misunderstandings:

• While it is being claimed that there is a clear conclusion above, once again there is none. There is stunning lack of any clear conclusions here except by straw polls (a problem which goes back long before I arrived in the discussion).
• It seems to be assumed that I must be promoting some particular position, because it is assumed everyone on this article is doing this. But actually I would be happy to see ANY CLEAR ARGUMENT/RATIONALE which "wins" and becomes clear. Without this, editors here are constantly attacking each other and misunderstanding each other. With better rationales on record, we should have a more stable article, and easier editing.
• Just to remind you all, the lead changes in major ways every few months, the talk page is a long term disaster covered in warning signs, and the main active editors struggle to even define the details of what this article is about in a clear and consistent way (for example to define how and why this article is not the same subject as covered in Intelligent Design Movement). Is that not something worth trying to avoid in the future?
• As far as I see it, but it has always been open to discussion, the biggest problem the article has is unclear boundaries concerning what it is about, and how to tell which sentences in which sources are relevant to that subject as opposed to related subjects (intelligent design movement, argument from design, etc).

As I have pointed out in other discussions, if we can not resolve that, then maybe the most practical alternative is to merge this article to Intelligent Design Movement, which effectively now cites the same sources and says the same things and has many of the same editors. (Such a decision would normally be better made by a broader part of the WP community.) I have not really seen anyone grappling with this point, and I have doubts that anyone understands the point I was making yet. This makes me reluctant to give up on this article.

• A question. My best guess about how sources are delineated as being relevant to this current article (as opposed to other subjects that might sometimes be called "intelligent design") is that any source talking about the intelligent design movement (the one involved in arguing that a supposedly scientific theory of intelligent design should be taught in schools etc) is deemed to be about the subject of this article. Am I right or is there another criterium being used?

If a good answer can at least be put on record, I think it would help this article? Please treat my question in good faith. :) --Andrew Lancaster (talk) 09:06, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

Andrew, once again TLDR. You would be well advised to re read the posts made by the other editors before your last seemingly unending tome. Drop the stick. Now.

You are perfectly entitled to have whatever opinion you choose, just as we are perfectly entitled to ignore it. You would be far more persuasive if you kept your posts to a much shorter length. Please stop apparently trying to overwhelm the conversation by sheer weight of words. - Nick Thorne 10:18, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

What stick are you talking about, which opinion of mine do you say people disagree with? I asked a question about a rationale. Indeed, why spend so much effort trying to bury and distort?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 11:20, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

Andrew, I'm not interested in playing games with you. Please just take the hint that quite a few editors here have given you. Go and find some other corner of Misplaced Pages to work on where you can do something constructive. Your posts on this talk page are becoming disruptive, they continue to rake over the coals of things that have already been discussed, sometimes multiple times, and your dissatisfaction with the results of those discussions does not give you the right to endlessly go on about it. Accept that the consensus is against you and if you can't do that here and begin to cooperate with others on this page then maybe the ID page is not for you. I can't put it any plainer than that. - Nick Thorne 15:33, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

I register your refusal and/or inability to explain what you meant, and to answer my question. I read your series of posts as saying you see no need to be convincing, right? But editors express annoyance with each of us on Misplaced Pages all the time, and none of us can pay attention to all of them, or else Misplaced Pages would be a disaster. It is obvious that there are waves of different editors expressing emotions periodically on this particular talk page, because they see it is as connected to current affairs they feel strongly about, right? And in all good faith the aggressive and personal editors who post on this talk page are also the ones who show no evidence of knowledge or interest in the on-topic discussions. What do any of us do when confronted with such editors? Does every such complaint count as a vote and force us to obey? I do not think so.

I am asking a clear good faith and on-topic question above, which I hope can help future discussion, and I kindly request that it is treated in a good faith manner. Why not? --Andrew Lancaster (talk) 21:14, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

Andrew, please take the recent comments you received from multiple editors into consideration. You've been harping on the same issue for several months now, and received little-to-no support. We're tired of reading walls of text that say the exact same thing over and over and over and over and over and over again. We all know what you want and... we don't agree with you. You may even be correct, but Misplaced Pages is not the place to right great wrongs. You have not gained consensus, and at a certain point you have to drop the stick. Please listen to your fellow editors: "The community's rejection of your idea is not proof that they have failed to hear you. Stop writing, listen, and consider what the other editors are telling you." I think at this point, further disruptions will have to be reported. -- MisterDub (talk | contribs) 21:40, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

More posts about me. More posts which refer to mysterious un-defined understandings. Why not return to topic?

Not only am I trying to listen Mister Dub, I am now simply asking you guys (you apparently identify as a group with a united but to me unclear position) to explain your own position. I asked a very fundamental question about how you as a group delineate the relevant sources for this article, because it seems to be an important point to you. Why not just answer it? As far as I can see it is a new, clear, fundamental and un-answered question. Getting down to basics seems to be just what is called for in the situation you describe? Give me and other editors something meaningful to "listen" to and understand?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 07:21, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

Is there a proposal to improve the article? The proposal in the OP has no consensus, so why are we still discussing who-knows-what? Johnuniq (talk) 07:53, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

It seems obvious that where it is not clear how different editors delineate what an article is about you will get problems much like the ones this article has: people talking past each other. Let's work together to break that circle.--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 08:22, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

In this section, one editor has made a proposal and twelve have opposed it. One of the twelve has been partially supportive of some kind of rewording, but the other eleven show no concern with the text currently in the article. Perhaps we are all wrong. Nevertheless there is a clear consensus and since this is a collaborative community the only responsible action would be to drop the matter and find other pages requiring attention. There is an alternative—use a sandbox to prepare an RfC to determine whether there is any support for your proposal in the wider community, then make a single post of the RfC to this page and let the community decide. However, the time for "Let's work together to break that circle" is well past—you have over 1000 edits to this talk page since August 2013 (averaging 3.6 edits per day), and it is time to agree that whatever the problem is, there should be no further commentary. Johnuniq (talk) 09:37, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

• Indeed, I can start a new section in order to avoid my new question being swamped.
• An RfC would be appropriate if I had some kind of clear proposal such as if it really seems there is no practical reason not to merge this article with the Intelligent Design Movement article. But I am trying to keep an open mind.
• I think your edit count comments are useless throw-away remarks, either thoughtless, or else deliberately misleading. In either case disruptive. I have discussed lots of ideas on this talk page, and many have been accepted or at least got widely varying reactions. It is silly to try to caricature every post I made as being driven by some sort of un-definable single aim as per the "we know what is going on" comments above. It comes across as silly that no one can define it. Furthermore there is no clear position opposed to anything I say, but rather waves of rent-a-crowd folk who show no sign of following the discussion. It would be good to have ANY clear coherent position, in public. And 3.6 comments per day is not a lot, and what if it was?
• I think what people rejected is Dave souza's distortion of my SECOND draft, which was made in reaction to your post, which was the only reaction to my first draft, but was not an outright rejection. I do not believe anyone clearly rejected the first draft? If they did, my request is that we get the reasoning out into public and clear. What's wrong with that?--Andrew Lancaster (talk) 10:39, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

Andrew, what's wrong with your first or second draft is that it is not sufficiently biased. In order to qualify as the lede for this article, it must immediately conflate the philosophy of ID (which has existed with that name in the 19th century) with the current political mess and the Discovery Institute. And it must denigrate the idea at every place possible. It must not simply state what it is in the lede, but must inject a value statement regarding it as early as the fifth word of the article. If you make it sufficiently politically correct (in the minds of those who control the article) and biased, it will be indistinguishable from what exists now, so then why bother? 70.109.182.148 (talk) 15:48, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

Andrew - Your second proposal seems the better one based on the ID concept having controversy and theory phrasing being more commonly seen as key factors. But I'm still thinking there is WP:OR going on for header here, which has been making issues with cite and article consistency and good WPism harder to get, so this may be as good as it gets. Meh, at least the issues seem fairly obvious to readers. Markbassett (talk) 01:53, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

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