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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Valetude (talk | contribs) at 08:35, 1 July 2014 (→Vince Foster suicide: new section). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Teahouse invitation

Hi Froglich! Thanks for contributing to Misplaced Pages. Be our guest at the Teahouse! The Teahouse is a friendly space where new editors can ask questions about contributing to Misplaced Pages and get help from peers and experienced editors. I hope to see you there! Osarius (I'm a Teahouse host) Visit the TeahouseThis message was delivered automatically by your robot friend, HostBot (talk) 01:15, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

High explosives and energetics

Hi Froglich, It is my understanding that high explosives are not particularly more energetic than low explosives. They explode in a shorter time (they detonate rather than deflagrate), but they do not provide significantly more energy per unit mass. In any case I explained that concern on the talk page when I added the {{dubious}} tag, so it would be good to engage the issue there rather than simply removing the tag. --Trovatore (talk) 00:13, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

Croak! (Taken care of.)--Froglich (talk) 01:54, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. --Trovatore (talk) 10:15, 9 May 2013 (UTC)

George Bernard Shaw's "Jewish Question"

(Shaw) was a very complicated person who still arouses great passion. The current article is a sincere attempt by a number of editors, over a considerable length of time, to present a balanced summary of the man, while not glossing over some of his more bizarre views and sayings. Totally changing the POV of an article like this may even be justified, but please raise any questions about the current (balanced?) view, and your desire to bring us into line with (say) Conservapedia, on the talk page for the article, rather than making wholesale changes - which are bound to be reverted, if not by me then by some "friends of Shaw" who are much less critical of him than me! --Soundofmusicals (talk) 23:42, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

Speaking of his "bizarre views" which we should not be glossing over....

"We ought to tackle the Jewish question by admitting the right of States to make eugenic experiments by weeding out any strains that they think undesirable, but insisting that they do it as humanely as they can afford to..." -- (Shaw, to Beatrice Webb, February 1938) --Froglich (talk) 00:41, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

So bring these things up on the talk page. --Soundofmusicals (talk) 02:29, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

That is not a requirement for editing Misplaced Pages.--Froglich (talk) 04:13, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

Memory hole preservation clause

Here is the section various persons keep removing (other editors are requested to boldly revert such deletions):

Eugenics

(snip) At a meeting of the Eugenics Education Society of 3 March 1910 he suggested the need to use a "lethal chamber" to solve their problem. Shaw said:

We should find ourselves committed to killing a great many people whom we now leave living, and to leave living a great many people whom we at present kill. We should have to get rid of all ideas about capital punishment ...A part of eugenic politics would finally land us in an extensive use of the lethal chamber. A great many people would have to be put out of existence simply because it wastes other people’s time to look after them.

Shaw also called for the development of a "deadly" but "humane" gas for the purpose of killing, many at a time, those unfit to live.

In a newsreel interview released on 5 March 1931, dealing with alternatives to the imprisonment of criminals, Shaw says

You must all know half a dozen people at least who are no use in this world, who are more trouble than they are worth. Just put them there and say Sir, or Madam, now will you be kind enough to justify your existence? If you can't justify your existence, if you're not pulling your weight in the social boat, if you're not producing as much as you consume or perhaps a little more, then, clearly, we cannot use the organizations of our society for the purpose of keeping you alive, because your life does not benefit us and it can't be of very much use to yourself.

The Jewish question

Shaw would publicly expound desires for "humane" extermination into the late 1930s, even as Germany was already well entrenched under the sway of Adolf Hitler (whose antisemitic autobiography Mein Kampf had been in print since 1923, and of which Shaw was still supportive of well into the War.), with anti-Jewish legislation in prewar Nazi Germany having escalated steadily since 1933 (in accordance with the Nazi Party's "25-Step Program" published in 1920), with German Jews stripped of citizenship in 1935.

In private correspondence to the Fabian socialist Beatrice Webb on February 6, 1938, Shaw was unequivocal in defense of government-orchestrated extermination of "undesirables", but concerned with portrayal and avoidance of embarrassment:

We ought to tackle the Jewish question by admitting the right of States to make eugenic experiments by weeding out any strains that they think undesirable, but insisting that they do it as humanely as they can afford to, and not to shock civilisation by such misdemeanours as the expulsion and robbery of Einstein."

In the wake of the Holocaust (during which the use of "humane" Zyklon B was prominent), some of Shaw's defenders would either confuse or downplay his pre-WWII statements as satirical in nature or actually mockery of the eugenics movement.

Notes

1. Stone, Dan (2002). Breeding superman: Nietzsche, race and eugenics in Edwardian and interwar Britain. Liverpool, England: Liverpool University Press. ISBN 978-0-85323-997-0.
2. Conolly, Leonard (2009). Bernard Shaw and the BBC. Toronto: University of Toronto Press. p. 189. ISBN 0-8020-8920-8.
3. "George Bernard Shaw reopens capital punishment controversy". Paramount British Pictures. 5 March 1931. Retrieved 31 July 2011.
4. A transcript was prepared for Fox News:Beck, Glenn (25 January 2010). "The Revolutionary Holocaust: Live Free or Die". Fox News. Retrieved 20 January 2011.
5. Revel, Jean Francois (2009). "The Intellectual and Moral Origins of Socialism". Last Exit to Utopia: The Survival of Socialism in a Post-Soviet Era. Encounter Books. p. 96. ISBN 1-594-03264-5. "Shaw, concerned with finding an efficient way to purge the enemies of socialism, displayed a fine talent for prognostication in the BBC's highbrow periodical The Listener in 1933, when he urged chemists to devise a "humane" gas that would cause an "instantaneous and painless" death" - a civilized sort of gas, lethal of course but not cruel. It may be recalled that Nazi mass-murderer Adolf Eichmann, at his trial in Jerusalem in 1962, invoked in his defense the "humane" character of Zyklon B, the chemical used to exterminate the Jews in the Shoah.
6. "George Bernard Shaw: Can His Reputation Survive His Dark Side?". Boryana Books. 1 February 2012. Retrieved 27 June 2013.
7. Watson, George (1998). The Lost Literature of Socialism. Lutterworth Press. pp. 87–88. ISBN 0-718-89227-5.
8. Watson, George (1998). "Marx and the Holocaust". The Lost Literature of Socialism. Lutterworth Press. pp. 87–88. ISBN 0-718-89227-5. The humanity of gas was one day to be Adolf Eichmann's defense in Jerusalem on Zyklon-B
9. Kevles, Daniel J. (1995). In the name of eugenics: genetics and the uses of human heredity. Cambridge: Harvard University Press. p. 86. ISBN 0-520-05763-5. Shaw...did not spare the eugenics movement his unpredictable mockery... acted the outrageous buffoon at times.
10. Searle (1976: 92): "This was widely felt to be a joke in the worst possible taste".

trayvon martin

I've been watching your work on the Trayvon Martin articles and I'm satisfied that you're alert to the problem of bias. You will be pleased to learn that regarding the Tea Party movement article, your suggestion regarding mention of Karl Denninger is being acted upon. The article was an enormous mess when I started working on it a few months ago. Extremely partisan and tendentious editors were trying to WP:OWN it. It had become a collection of what I describe as "Daily Kos cruft," which is a collection of negative trivia about a conservative person or group that members of progressive online communities such as DKos find amusing, but are otherwise useless. A lot of that stuff has now been chainsawed out and it's looking better. Thanks for the suggestion and you are welcome to join us. Phoenix and Winslow (talk) 14:31, 17 July 2013 (UTC)

Ribbit! (Thanks)

Also wanted to give some unsolicited advice re some of your edits/talk comments. We all certainly have our own beliefs as to what happened in this case, and the trial etc. In that I think we probably agree about more than we disagree. But some of your comments, while maybe true from a real world argument standpoint, are not well grounded in wikipedia policy. Fighting over the event/trial "truth" leads down a bad path for the wiki - keep the arguments based on policy, and what sources say about the event, and its much easier to hold off the barbarians. Gaijin42 (talk) 17:40, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

I can do much better than "beliefs"; I have reality at my disposal: Al "Tawana Brawley" Sharpton is an *employee* of MSNBC. Let the meanings and portents of that sink in.

The problem with a policy-perfect article written by editors who aren't well-versed in the "real world" is that while what they create will look pretty, it will be a poor informative tool. Most of the problems with the Trayvon Martin article stem from just such a disparity. By mentioning various things on the Talk page, I prompt other editors to scratch their curiosity-itch. I'm actually rather pleased with the amount of truth the Shooting article contained before I arrived; I wouldn't have been surprised to find media mendacity not mentioned at all.--Froglich (talk) 18:22, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Category:Most-active volcanoes

Category:Most-active volcanoes, which you created, has been nominated for possible deletion, merging, or renaming. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the Categories for discussion page. Thank you. Pichpich (talk) 02:10, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

Croak! (Nuked it myself.)--Froglich (talk) 08:07, 5 August 2013 (UTC)

List of topics characterized as pseudoscience and Acquittal

I don't know why you removed Maharishi Ayurveda from the List of topics characterized as pseudoscience, or the templates from Acquittal which seemed appropriate (including "For other uses, see Not guilty." but I've restored them. And please use WP:Edit summaries. I want to AGF, but normally, especially for Acquittal, I'd just revert as vandalism. Dougweller (talk) 06:42, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

I did not delete Maharishi Ayurveda; I created a new section for Traditional Indian Medicine, and moved Maharishi Ayurveda into it. The tag on the Acquittal is a five-year old eyesore which was addressed a long time ago.--Froglich (talk) 09:19, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

No, they weren't. Yes, the one source template was wrong and I've not reinstated that, but the others are still appropriate - it clearly needs more sources, it only discusses America and England and Wales so it needs globalising, and you have again removed the 'other uses' template with no explanation. I don't know of any guidelines that say that because problems haven't been addressed for 5 years you can remove the template. Dougweller (talk) 13:02, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

I wouldn't have reverted you at the list article if you'd used an edit summary, I would have just fixed the problem with naturopathy - as it was I couldn't easily see what you'd done. Dougweller (talk) 13:23, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

Naturopathy fixed.--Froglich (talk) 09:19, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Historical revisionism (negationism)

Concerning your edit on Historical revisionism (negationism): your paragraph regarding the Confederacy needs additional sources. I just saved it from deletion, but still, it needs those sources to be kept in the article. Moreover, someone put in a paragraph concerning black soldiers in the Confederate Army. Since I am not a great expert on this subject: could you have a look at it? Regards,Jeff5102 (talk) 14:50, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

Croak! (Taken care of.) Thanks for alerting me to the mice playing while the cat was away. I added one reference which, IMO, is more than comprehensive (further citations could be lifted straight from its own encyclopedic footnotes). I also removed all that other editor's unsupported original research.--Froglich (talk) 23:01, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

Commie Chameleons

Global Warming Crap (AKA: Let's get this Stalinism out of the way)

FYI, this is a notification that all articles that discuss climate change "broadly defined" are under discretionary sanctions per the arbitration decision at WP:ARBCC. Your insistance on pushing an extremely fringe POV and using the talk page as a forum for those views is not allowed. I have reverted your comments with the edit summary WP:NOTAFORUM. The next section below also demonstrates you are WP:NOTHERE to create an encyclopedia, but to push a fringe POV. Stop it. You really do deserve a topic ban. The climate change area is a very sensitive one, and topic bans are handed out for such behavior. -- Brangifer

Hello, Froglich. This message is being sent to inform you that a discussion is taking place at Misplaced Pages:Fringe theories/Noticeboard regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. jps (talk) 05:29, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

I am in very good company with Harold Lewis: --Froglich (talk) 12:25, 22 March 2014 (UTC)

"...I am forced, with no pleasure at all, to offer you my resignation from the Society. It is of course, the global warming scam, with the (literally) trillions of dollars driving it, that has corrupted so many scientists, and has carried APS before it like a rogue wave. It is the greatest and most successful pseudoscientific fraud I have seen in my long life as a physicist."

Whistling Past The Graveyard of Dope Theories Hastily Renamed by Their Fraud Guzzlers

(Pursuant the bullynazi tactics in the preceding section...)

Don't everybody freak out all at once, now; ya hear? It's only the dead rising from their restless slumber to exact their horrible vengeance. (Watching you folks have your brains clawed out by ravenous ghouls in the years to come will be the epitome of schadenfreude.)--Froglich (talk) 09:27, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

Marc Morano

Froglich, Concerning the article on Marc Morano, I am looking for objective editors to help bring this article to a neutral state. I noticed that you participated a little and I would hope that you could join in on the talk page to help make this article more neutral and also rid the poor nature of the structure of the article, which is clearly not at the level of quality needed for a Bio and does not even come close to the examples of other Bio's on WP. I look forward to your help if you can. Thanks Jvaughters (talk) 20:20, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

As far as the Morano, et al, articles go, at this point I'd rather they were pure drivel than half-assed mediocrity. I.e., it's better that a skeptical reader be easily tipped off that he's reading tripe (and thereby simply invert everything he sees for the truth), than encounter a muddle. I have become reasonably convinced (indeed rather easily) that Misplaced Pages (like almost everything else subject to O'Sullivan's Law) is going to remain a spigot of carbon tax-fueled propaganda until such time as the reality of a now cooling planet (a chill which the Orwellians are straining with Herculean effort to blame on CO2) dictates that either Misplaced Pages collapses into laughingstock status or that the cabal of administrators responsible for jackboot tactics on these issues (see above) are bounced out. 2014 is the year Khabibullo Abdusamatov set for the beginning of the next mini ice-age back in early 2012 (and solar tepidity is proceeding right on cue), so it shouldn't take too long for things to shake out one way or the other.

Major cracks in the peer-reviewed IPCC blarney are also beginning to manifest, so it really is the beginning of the end of the line for them.--Froglich (talk) 05:41, 24 January 2014 (UTC)

I see your point, however, we were able to get to a low end mediocrity point. I completely agree with your assessment except for one thing. It could be very long time to flesh out one way or the other. What absolutely drives me insane is the disregard for the Scientific Method and the very definition of Science. There is no place for consensus other than to advance a theory, but these folks are taking consensus as proof. Looking forward to reading the links you provided and also agree that this has the potential to collapse down on them. They certainly set themselves up for it. Jvaughters (talk) 20:31, 24 January 2014 (UTC)

I really liked O'Sullivan's Law, I have always had similar belief, I had no clue there was a term for it. I always described it as Natural Human Government, meaning what occurs naturally if forces are not already in place to prevent it. Good Stuff!! I was familiar with the Russian Theory through other articles, but nice to see the more direct source. I am a bit confused about IPCC blarney article. I would appreciate if you could clarify the point on that one. Thanks Jvaughters (talk) 21:57, 24 January 2014 (UTC)

The Zombie Apocalypse is here!

Oh my dear god; what's this?!? Will the horrors never end?--Froglich (talk) 11:40, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Edit warring at Dreams from My Real Father

Please note that I have made a comment at Talk:Dreams from My Real Father (see here) regarding the content dispute in which you and several other editors have been involved. If you believe other editors are repeatedly reverting your changes to the lead section of this article in defiance of the NPOV policy — even after the lengthy discussion at the NPOV noticeboard — you need to report them now at the Edit Warring noticeboard page (WP:EWN). If you continue to wage a one-person-against-the-world edit war, I will report you at WP:EWN myself (assuming someone else doesn't take action first). Edit warring is not acceptable as a means of handling a dispute, even in a case where you are certain you are in the right and everyone else is blind to the facts. — Richwales (no relation to Jimbo) 19:17, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

I am quite disappointed that your earnest defense of quality controls at Misplaced Pages consists of threatening the one editor in the disputes who gives a damn about them.--Froglich (talk) 20:38, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

The FALN fan club

Oscar López Rivera

The Mediation Committee has received a request for formal mediation of the dispute relating to "Oscar Lopez Rivera". As an editor concerned in this dispute, you are invited to participate in the mediation. Mediation is a voluntary process which resolves a dispute over article content by facilitation, consensus-building, and compromise among the involved editors. After reviewing the request page, the formal mediation policy, and the guide to formal mediation, please indicate in the "party agreement" section whether you agree to participate. Because requests must be responded to by the Mediation Committee within seven days, please respond to the request by 28 May 2014.

Discussion relating to the mediation request is welcome at the case talk page. Thank you.
Message delivered by MediationBot (talk) on behalf of the Mediation Committee. 13:25, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

Ribbit! (There, dude.)--Froglich (talk) 06:03, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

Request for mediation rejected

The request for formal mediation concerning Oscar Lopez Rivera, to which you were listed as a party, has been declined. To read an explanation by the Mediation Committee for the rejection of this request, see the mediation request page, which will be deleted by an administrator after a reasonable time. Please direct questions relating to this request to the Chairman of the Committee, or to the mailing list. For more information on forms of dispute resolution, other than formal mediation, that are available, see Misplaced Pages:Dispute resolution.

For the Mediation Committee, Sunray (talk) 16:26, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
(Delivered by MediationBot, on behalf of the Mediation Committee.)

FALN a Stalinist terrorist group that ...

I suggested just changing to FALN a terrorist group. I am not disagreeing with you entirely, but in the talk section I cite the article of Robert Bella on the surveillance (fun reading, specially when they replaced all the powder in bullets, dynamite and fuses with burnt charcoal from coconuts) that they used to capture FALN members, and they just didn't seem to spend much time on ideology. They worked really hard to avoid being followed and did not socialize together much. There was not much cafe-style ideology to these guys, they were nuts-and-bolts bombers and robbers. Just a suggestion. Rococo1700 (talk) 02:46, 24 May 2014 (UTC)

While the average recruit in these terrorist groups was dumber than a box of hair, the ringleaders knew what they wanted; and what they wanted was "Implementation of the Stalinist ideological position." As such, I see no reason not to take them at face value., particularly in hindsight with the knowledge that an eventual dictatorship (in the Stalinist mold) is what was "implemented" in every case other violent groups similar to the FALN managed succssful putsches during the Cold War. ...This is also why I'm altering the various unqualified "nationalist" references; as claiming to be nationalists was a base propaganda position for the myriad violent groups attempting to turn their locales into Soviet satellites. (To make a contemporary analogy -- aside from the obvious Ukrainian one in which all of the "Nationalists" are on Putin's payroll -- it'd be as if an Islamist terrorist group seeking to impose Shari'a were to claim it was "nationalist".)--Froglich (talk) 06:44, 24 May 2014 (UTC)

(Onlookers note that "Stalinist" has now been changed to "Marxist-Leninist".)--Froglich (talk) 01:05, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

May Day Dissembling

This is your only warning; if you violate Misplaced Pages's biographies of living persons policy by inserting unsourced or poorly sourced defamatory content into an article or any other Misplaced Pages page again, as you did at Alejandrina Torres, you may be blocked from editing without further notice. Jmundo (talk) 15:11, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

I've asked the editor who gave you this warning to explain it. Maybe you are clear what it was for, but I'm not, nor do I see how it can be justified as an 'only warning'. Dougweller (talk) 18:20, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

The warning was for re-adding contentious info without proper secondary sources to BLP articles. He/She can use the article's discussion to seek consensus.--Jmundo (talk) 18:25, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

This person (Jmundo) is a tendentious editor who has no interest in the Misplaced Pages project aside from his unwavering constant of butchering historical articles toward a propaganda perspective devoid of either factual or stylistic merit. -- That the FALN was a Marxist-Leninist terrorist organization (indeed an archetypical one) is not contentious, that supporting sources exist is not an issue (I just added three more references, all easily found given the large body of scholarly work in the area; I could easily add a dozen more) and that the various convicted FALN members would not otherwise meet Misplaced Pages's notability requirements sans their role in the FALN is also not contentious -- therefore their active participation in said organization (and subsequent conviction) is properly placed in the lede of their articles, not buried three sections down. (IMO none of these FALN personages merit individual articles, an opinion buttressed by the fact they're mainly copy-dumps of each other.) Jmundo's cut-n-paste boilerplate is simply an attempt to obfuscate and intimidate. It has also not escaped my attention that he has refrained from simultaneous reversion of the one FALN personage article (Rivera) which is more heavily trafficked by other editors unsympathetic to his position (said greater traffic resultant from the mediation request noted above).--Froglich (talk) 00:58, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. Did you notice that he's accused me of tracking his edits? I haven't been of course, this page is on my watch list as you probably know. Dougweller (talk) 13:48, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

Re: Eleanor seats

Saw the revert @ Eleanor_(automobile). Agreed; leaving out that bit is better to keep the article grammar in an encyclopedic form. Thanks! Cudak888 (talk) 03:25, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

Ribbit!--Froglich (talk) 03:35, 16 June 2014 (UTC)

Wagnerian rock

Hello! Would you like to comment on this discussion regarding the issues at the Wagnerian rock page? If not, feel free to ignore this message. Thanks! Johnny338 (talk) 02:12, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Croak! <looking at it>--Froglich (talk) 04:47, 23 June 2014 (UTC)

Of Human Feelings

Hi! Would you care to review my FA nomination for the article Of Human Feelings? The article is about a jazz album by Ornette Coleman. If not, feel free to ignore this message. Cheers! Dan56 (talk) 03:14, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

Braap! <okay>--Froglich (talk) 06:31, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

Vince Foster suicide

I don't see how my extension of the lede can be described as a political diatribe. It just summarises items from the main article, which is what a lede is for. Valetude (talk) 08:35, 1 July 2014 (UTC)