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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Sandstein (talk | contribs) at 13:07, 21 July 2014 (→Result concerning Pigsonthewing: WP:ARCA#Clarification request: Infoboxes). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Khabboos

User:84.106.11.117

Pigsonthewing

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Pigsonthewing

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

Nikkimaria (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 12:17, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Pigsonthewing (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Infoboxes#Pigsonthewing_and_infoboxes : "Pigsonthewing is indefinitely banned from adding, or discussing the addition or removal of, infoboxes"

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. 18 July 2014 - editor adds an infobox template

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

User was asked to self-revert and declined to do so.

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Discussion concerning Pigsonthewing

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Pigsonthewing

I have been mindful not to breach this restriction since it was imposed, ten months ago. And in this case, I did not do so.

What I did do, was to fix a malformed infobox, added here by a good faith, but naive, new editor (this article represents their only edits), including the code:

'''Born''': Albert Ernst Giovanni SCHRAM, 2 September 1964, De Bilt (The Netherlands).
'''Residence''': Lae (Papua New Guinea) & Negrar (Italy).
'''Nationality''': Dutch (The Netherlands).
'''Alma Mater''': European University Institute, Fiesole (Italy).
'''Occupation''': University President.

That had the dreadful visual appearance shown alongside. My replacement had more usual, correct formatting. The restriction does not disallow me from fixing existing infoboxes. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 13:29, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

@Callanecc: Nor is there a restriction on me discussing (on an article talk page or elsewhere) improvements to an existing infobox. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 13:34, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

Statement by Hullaballoo Wolfowitz

Pigsonthewing did not violate the terms of the arbcom ruling. He did not add an infobox to the article in question, but corrected the formatting on a very poorly constructed infobox that had been uncontroversially added to the article nearly a year ago. If one looks at this narrowly, in terms of the coding, one could argue that he removed one infobox and added a different one containing the same content, but that is pedantry. The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo) (talk) 13:19, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

Statement by RexxS

This accusation is absolute nonsense.

@Callanecc: You don't need to make up a definition of an infobox from thin air. We already have a definition of an infobox in the very first line of Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style/Infoboxes:

• "An infobox template is a panel, usually in the top right of an article, next to the lead section, (in the desktop view) or at the very top of an article (in mobile view), that summarizes key features of the page's subject. Infoboxes may also include an image, and/ or a map.

A panel ... that summarises key features of the page's subject.

How on earth can you possibly not recognise this edit as adding a panel ... that summarises key features of the page's subject.?

Not only that, but it was "in the top right, next to the lead section".

Look at it - reproduced here as it was when added by Erganbjem, who started editing on 8 August 2013 and who had made just 35 edits by the time he added the infobox (i.e the panel that summarises key features of the page's subject) on 22 September 2013.

It is abundantly clear that not only was the intention to add a panel in the top right of an article, next to the lead section, ... that summarises key features of the page's subject., but the effect was to achieve that. Nobody is contesting that it was a rather suboptimal implementation, even if it was the best that such a new editor could manage - especially as he never edited any other article, and was trying to use the visual editor to add the infobox.

So now we are in the ludicrous position of an editor who stalks Andy's contributions asking for a sanction to prevent him from even improving a very poor infobox. This needs to be thrown out and some examination made of the number of times that Nikkimaria has arrived at an article for the first time just to take issue with Andy's legitimate edits. That needs to stop. --RexxS (talk) 15:10, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

@Sandstein: If you remain concerned about Andy getting too close to the limits of his sanction, then I'll make an offer: I'll give Andy the opportunity to draw my attention to any article where this kind of grey area exists and I'll examine it afresh. If there is the opportunity for the sort of improvement that is so blindingly obvious as in this case, then I'll make the improvement myself in my own way. I have no intention of doing an end-run around sanctions, but I will not stand by and see genuine improvements to the encyclopedia thrown away because of this kind of process for process sake. --RexxS (talk) 19:42, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

Statement by Sitush

I'm with RexxS here, and I'm really not a fan of infoboxes. Any attempt to assert that this particular edit breached the ArbCom ruling seems like pedantry. The thing was already there, just poorly constructed and obviously in need of a fix. If Nikkimaria were that concerned, she could have simply reverted Potw and then done the fix in their name. Let's use a bit of common sense. - Sitush (talk) 15:36, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

Statement by Gerda

The edit helped a new user and improved the article. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 05:59, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

Statement by Boing!

Do you know how this makes me feel? Sad. Seeing a productive editor making a change to an article that is so obviously an improvement (and was obviously fixing what was intended as an infobox and doing it properly, and was not adding a new one) being dragged here by a pedantic process-wonk out of battleground spite saddens me a lot. Seeing a couple of Arbs admins actually supporting the accusation using nothing but pedantic process-wonkery while ignoring the plain fact that Andy's change was simply a fix to an existing but badly-formed infobox - well, that saddens me even more. What have we come to when pursuing personal vendettas and pedantically enforcing the (incorrect) letter of Arb sanctions matters more than supporting editors who only desire to make articles better? Those bringing this accusation and those supporting it should carefully read what Rexxs said above - and you should be ashamed of yourselves. If Arbcom admins should actually go ahead and sanction Andy over this, I'll be more than sad - I'll be disgusted. — Alan / Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 10:45, 20 July 2014 (UTC) (Corrected per below — Alan / Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 13:40, 20 July 2014 (UTC))

Boing! this is arbitration enforcement, not ArbCom. Those commenting and deciding for or against sanctions are administrators, not arbitrators. The distinction is important, as it allows arbitrators to (mostly) respond at the next level up (typically the clarifications and amemndments page) rather than here. Though arbitrators do sometimes comment at enforcement requests, it is relatively rare. Carcharoth (talk) 11:19, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

Yes, that's an important point, thanks for the reminder - I've corrected my comments. But it doesn't change my underlying criticism of the report here and of those admins supporting it. — Alan / Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 13:37, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

• PS: I'd also like to offer a tip of the hat to Callanecc for this - it's always nice to see admins being honourable enough to change their minds when they think they were mistaken and to openly say so. — Alan / Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 17:07, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Pigsonthewing

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

• This looks like a crystal clear (this was a bit too far, see further comments) violation of the restriction for which I would suggest a one week block. Given the denial on their talk page I'd like to wait for a statement from Pigsonthewing. Based on Gerda's comment on my talk page I'll clarify the reason I wanted a statement and more admin opinions. Pigsonthewing added an infobox to replace that summary which is where I see the breach of the restriction. Putting it another way if Andy had got into a discussion about this on the talk page (or the talk page of the user who added the summary) I would have considered that a violation so by extension and my reading of the restriction this is a violation. I am open be being more lenient with the one week block after a statement from Andy and from other admins. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 13:00, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

Regarding whether this was fixing or adding, both Help:Infobox ("fixed-format table") and Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style/Infoboxes ("Infoboxes generally use the template software feature. (It is possible to hand-code an infobox using table markup...)") seem to define an infobox as a fixed-format table which the original was not. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 13:47, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

Given the clarifying comments and discussion I have no problem with this being closed with no sanction. Thank you to everyone who commented it definitely helped to define this sanction. As I've said before whilst I take a fairly hard line to what is and is not a violation (and no ill will intended Andy) I am very happy (and generally prefer) to be proved wrong in cases like this. Thank you all, Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 09:37, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

• The request has merit. In the edit at issue, Pigsonthewing added an {{Infobox}} template to the article that was not there before. In addition, what it replaced was a thumbnail image with a caption, which is not an infobox, as Callanecc explains above. What Pigsonthewing did therefore wasn't merely fixing an existing infobox. Pigsonthewing is an experienced editor and should have known better than to try to game the limits of an Arbitration Committee restriction. They also should have immediately reverted themselves when asked to, instead of accusing the editor who reported them of stalking. In view of their uncooperative response to this request, I am of the view that a two-week block (considering the range of up to a month provided for by the enforcement remedy) is necessary to prevent Pigsonthewing from future noncompliance with the restriction.  Sandstein  14:23, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
• This administrative response strikes me as counter-productive. Why do we have to enter into a debate over whether or not what was there on the page before Pigsonthewings' edits "really was" an infobox, and whether he was just "fixing" one or "inserting" one? The simple fact is that it was obviously meant to be an infobox. The previous editor wanted there to be an infobox, and had tried to insert one; Potw helped him finish the job. The intention behind Potw's restriction is to stop him from alienating other editors by pushing for the insertion of boxes in articles where others have previously chosen not to have any. Penalizing this edit would be counter to the spirit of this sanction.
  I also do think it would be counter to the letter of the rule. Pace Callanecc, I do not consider the use of template code as a defining feature of what an infobox is. An infobox is defined by what it does for the reader, not by what wikicode it is produced by. If I add something to an article that looks like an infobox, quacks like an infobox and swims like an infobox, but I have done so not through a template but through static table code, then I have still added an infobox. An infobox is a box at the top of the article that contains certain pieces of basic information in tabulated form. In this sense, what was on the page clearly was one.
  Incidentally, I find it ironic that this is now (I think) the second time that I, a card-carrying infobox hater, have felt the need to defend Potw over these arb sanctions. Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:40, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
• I am with FPaS here. Whilst technically PotW was adding an infobox, in reality he was merely fixing what was an attempt to add an infobox but ended up as a malformed mess (but, none the less, a recognisable attempt at an infobox). A sanction here would be counterproductive. Black Kite (talk) 20:04, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
• I'm on the fence. Looking at the revision prior to Pigsonthewing's edit, there was an "infobox," though malformed. Reading the letter of the restriction, Pigsonthewing is prohibited from "adding... infoboxes," which read in context with the rest of the decision seems to jive with what FPaS discusses above. The restriction is intended to remove his disruptive presence from discussions or disputes about adding an infobox on an article that wasn't already there. Still, I do believe that this is on the line, that Pigsonthewing should not be making edits to infoboxes period to avoid these issues. I'm uncomfortable with this edit, cause I can see the case for how this is gaming the system, or more importantly, could lead to that mindset down the road. Nevertheless, I'm leaning against a block based on the strong argument Pigsonthewing did not substantively "add" an "infobox" that wasn't already there. Lord Roem ~ (talk) 23:11, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
• This is the type of push the boundaries edit that is inherently problematic. Needing to have this discussion over whether a particular set of formatting qualifies as a preexisting infobox is contrary to the spirit of the sanction. Still, I think what was there does narrowly come down on the side of a preexisting infobox, so per the letter of the sanction, I'm opposing a block this time. I'd still advise Pigsonthewings to avoid anything that could even be argued to be adding or removing an infobox going forward, because if you keep ignoring the spirit of the arbitration sanction, your likely to end up blocked even if you abide by the letter of it. Monty₈₄₅ 23:58, 19 July 2014 (UTC)

• Based on the discussion above, it seems there's growing consensus this is not a violation of the editor's restriction. I'll close it with no action within the next 24-48 hours unless someone wants to add something to the discussion. Lord Roem ~ (talk) 16:24, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

• For my part, I still think the edit is in violation of the terms of the sanction because it added an infobox template where there was none before. But I see the arguments for the opposite view, and given that many administrators here are of that view, and the edit in and of itself wasn't disruptive, I'm OK with closing this with no action. But Pigsonthewing should be aware that they risk being blocked if they continue to push the limits of the restriction.  Sandstein  17:13, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
• Considering the request below, it appears that the conflicts that gave rise to the "Infoboxes" are becoming active again. Under these circumstances, I am concerned that closing this request without action would give the impression that administrators are not willing to give practical effect to the Committee's sanctions. For this reason, I'm asking the committee to clarify, at WP:ARCA#Clarification request: Infoboxes, whether the edit at issue violated the restriction applying to Pigsonthewing.  Sandstein  13:07, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

Gerda Arendt

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Gerda Arendt

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

Nikkimaria (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 11:45, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

Gerda Arendt (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Infoboxes#Gerda_Arendt_restricted : "Gerda Arendt is indefinitely restricted from: adding or deleting infoboxes; restoring an infobox that has been deleted; or making more than two comments in discussing the inclusion or exclusion of an infobox on a given article. They may participate in wider policy discussions regarding infoboxes with no restriction, and include infoboxes in new articles which they create."

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. 21 July User restores an infobox that had been deleted.

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

1. User has violated the restriction on multiple previous occasions without sanction - see for example Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Infoboxes#Request_for_clarification_.28October_2013.29 this Clarification request in which several arbitrators commented that the user had breached the restriction
2. Several times when confronted the user has claimed "I forgot" to justify the violation - see for example

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Discussion concerning Gerda Arendt

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Gerda Arendt

We are talking about this history. I am sorry, I forgot the part of not restoring, I don't look at my restrictions every day. I will not do it again, as long as I remember. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:58, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

Yes, several times I claimed "I forgot", because several times I forgot that I had not created an article. We are talking about articles from 2010, for example. Yes, I could have looked up the history, but I remembered my work on them so well that I failed to do it. I asked to apologize that already before. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:41, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Gerda Arendt

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the section above.

The request has merit. Because Gerda Arendt has previously violated the restriction multiple times and claimed to have forgotten it, as shown in the submitted evidence, I do not consider her statement that she forgot it again to be credible. To give preventative effect to the sanction, I believe that a block is now necessary. In view of her prior unsanctioned infractions, I also believe that the maximum block duration of one month is appropriate.  Sandstein  12:50, 21 July 2014 (UTC)

This is an unambiguous violation of their restriction. Saying "I forgot," especially at least a second time in a two-month period is both not persuasive and not helpful to their case. However, I disagree with Sandstein that a first block on someone's violation should take into consideration past times it was 'close' or that we didn't block. If we took no action in the past, we took no action in the past. Something like a week or two seems more appropriate. --Lord Roem ~ (talk) 13:04, 21 July 2014 (UTC)