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Undue weight to sexual, biological aspects

Some individuals identify themselves as heterosexual, homosexual or bisexual without having had any sexual experience. Others have had homosexual experiences but do not consider themselves to be gay, lesbian, or bisexual. Likewise, self-identified gay or lesbian individuals may occasionally sexually interact with members of the opposite sex but do not identify as bisexual.

I'm not sure if I'm retreading an old argument here, but it seems like this article gives a great deal of weight to sexual attraction without giving much more than lip service to aspects of identity or romantic attraction. This section in particular has the unfortunate connotation of implying that sexual experience is a "gold standard" in determining identity - as if biological response in bed is the central factor which usually indicates the sexual attractions people wish to seek out. I think that approach ignores a great deal of the social aspects of bisexuality. --Lunar Jesters _(talk) 18:14, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

Hello, Lunar Jesters. No, you are not "retreading an old argument here." However, I don't see how there is WP:Undue weight with regard to the "sexual, biological" aspects. The topic of bisexuality is certainly mostly a sexual topic. And the quote you cite above comes from a section (meaning its subsections as well) that gives a lot of weight to identity. For example, before the "Some individuals identify themselves as heterosexual, homosexual or bisexual without having had any sexual experience." text, there is the "Sexual attraction, behavior and identity may also be incongruent, as sexual attraction or behavior may not necessarily be consistent with identity." text. I'm not sure what social aspects of bisexuality you are looking to include. But whether they should be included or not doesn't mean that the existing text should be removed; in fact, I consider those factors important to mention. They are there because they concern bisexuality and too often people equate sexual behavior with sexual orientation and/or sexual identity. I agree that there needs to be something in that section about people not needing to engage in sexual activity to know that they are bisexual. It is easy to go on Google Books and find such material. Flyer22 (talk) 18:49, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

I'm not disputing that there's a place for the biological component of sexuality, but social aspects are barely discussed within the section on definitions. Yes, that section mentions the concept of identity, but it primarily discusses how biological responses inform people's understanding of their sexuality. Sociologists and queer theorists have described how "bisexuality," as it's understood in public discourse, comes from the way people articulate their biological desires. For example, Lisa Diamond discusses this in her work on sexual fluidity. As it stands, the article relies on a common understanding of attraction as "sexual attraction as a precursor or always entwined with romantic attraction and practice." It provides little basis for understanding people (for example) who want to pursue deep romantic relationships with men, but who want to pursue casual, sexual relationships with women. Likewise, there's not a great deal of information here about the historical context of bisexuality - i.e., it's a relatively recent phenomenon that "bisexual" became an identity you labeled yourself as, instead of something you DID. We might call the very intense, intimate friendships men had with other men in the 1800s a sign of bisexuality, for instance. These are all cogent parts of what we group into "bisexuality," and it seems a shame that most of this article concerns various physiological tests used to find the cause of bisexuality. (And then there's the overlong "in media" section, of course.) I just don't think we need so many paragraphs about hormones and penile plethysmograph testing, given the depth of what bisexuality as a whole covers. --Lunar Jesters _(talk) 19:28, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

Which material in particular do you object to? FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 19:50, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

The latter two paragraphs of the "label accuracy" section - it positions the legitimacy of bisexuality as tied primarily to the methodology of one lab experiment, and spends far too much space describing that study's news coverage. Then there's everything below "social factors" in the "studies, theories, and social responses" section, which places a hodgepodge of biologically informed theories of the origin of bisexuality together and spends far too long elaborating on individual studies. I'd like to see that section trimmed down to two or three paragraphs, and I'd like to see an expansion of the "social factors" section to about the same length. (The opening section of the theories section is pretty unwieldy, too, especially since it quotes the necessity for a holistic view before proceeding into a series of disconnected ideas.) --Lunar Jesters _(talk) 20:05, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I'm familiar with Lisa Diamond; her studies and theories, like other researchers, have support and non-support. We need to be careful about giving undue weight to individual researchers' beliefs. If you look at the "Studies, theories and social responses" section, there is some material there supporting some of what you want included. For example, it includes the "Research indicates that bisexuality is influenced by biological, cognitive and cultural variables in interaction, and this leads to different types of bisexuality. In the current debate around influences on sexual orientation, biological explanations have been questioned by social scientists, particularly by feminists who encourage women to make conscious decisions about their life and sexuality." text. And Marjorie Garber is mentioned at the end of that section as arguing that most people would be bisexual if not for repression and other factors such as lack of sexual opportunity; here is what that text used to state.

I encourage you to start adding some of the material you want included. I don't agree with any removal on the sexual, biological material, except for tweaking the text, material that is redundant or material that is WP:Undue weight. I completely disagree with removal of two of the three paragraphs in the Label accuracy section, for reasons that were already addressed in the Bailey -- "Straight, Gay or Lying? Bisexuality Revisited" discussion. That is some important information to address in this article, considering that it tackles prominent misconceptions about bisexuality and that study is cited as the biggest biphobic study to date; a lot of people still use that study to claim that bisexuality, especially male bisexuality, does not exist. Read the previous discussion I linked to about that matter. On a side note: The Media section actually isn't too long. It simply looks that way because of all the subheadings. Per MOS:PARAGRAPHS, "Short paragraphs and single sentences generally do not warrant their own subheading." Flyer22 (talk) 20:14, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

My issue is that that passage pays lip service to the "interaction" of these variables, but doesn't expand upon that idea. The masculinization section, for instance, presents research into the biological cause of sexuality as uncontroversial: which certainlyisn't the case, nor is the opposition to the methodology of that research relegated to fringe thinkers. Garber is a wonderful thinker, but I believe she's primarily a figure in media studies and literature. (Her writing could add some definition to the "Literature" section in the media section, though.)

And that makes sense in regards to the study - I'll try to clean up the prose around it so the significance of that study in public thought becomes more obvious. But I have to disagree with the Media section: why is it necessary to have a "Webseries" section? Why are there so many accounts of bisexual musical personalities that don't describe the significance of the person's coming out in society as a whole? (The information on Bowie is excellent, however.) Why is the section on Torchwood so long - is its depiction of bisexuality more important than every film involving bisexuality ever produced? Given that there's a child article, the section as a whole seems awfully granular. --Lunar Jesters _(talk) 01:48, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

By "that passage," do you mean the latter two paragraphs in the Label accuracy section? If so, what "expand upon that idea" do you mean? Or do you mean what I cited with regard to the "Studies, theories and social responses" section (not the Garber part)? It seems that you mean the latter of my queries.

Yes, the Media section could use some cuts and cleanup. I just don't feel that it's too long, per what I stated above about it. Flyer22 (talk) 02:16, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

Also, what do you mean by "child article"? The Child sexuality article? Flyer22 (talk) 02:32, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

Or the Media portrayals of bisexuality article as a "child article"? Flyer22 (talk) 02:52, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

Sorry - my response got a bit muddled. By "that passage" I mean the section you cited which begins with "Research indicates...", which seems to "tell, not show" that these factors are holistically related. And by "child article", I'm referring to Media portrayals of bisexuality. --Lunar Jesters _(talk) 12:35, 16 October 2013 (UTC)

Pictures

I've removed a couple of pictures that were recently added to this article. My edit summaries came out rather garbled and confused, but hopefully it should be clear what the reasons for removing those pictures were: 1) We should not be including pictures of any particular person without a good reason for including pictures of that particular person, and 2) We cannot make unsourced statements about a person's sexual orientation, per WP:BLP. Doing that is still unacceptable even if the article about the person backs up the statement about their sexuality - Wiki articles can't use other articles as sources. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 00:15, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Note: FreeKnowledgeCreator is referring to this, this, this and this edit. Flyer22 (talk) 18:56, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

The existence of bisexuality as a sexual orientation questioned in another study

Should we include information about this latest study in the article? The aforementioned The Huffington Post source is titled Bisexuality Not Deemed A 'Legitimate Sexual Orientation' By Heterosexual Men, Women: University Of Pittsburgh Study. Despite its title, it also discusses gay men and lesbians doubting that bisexuality is a legitimate sexual orientation. We already include information in this article about people doubting the existence of bisexuality (the sexual orientation, considering that bisexual behavior is clearly observable), but perhaps this study is worth a mention as well? Here is a CBS News source also talking about the study, and of course other news outlets have as well. Perhaps it would fit best in the Biphobia article, or is putting it there non-neutral in a way (with regard to those who feel that not every debate about this matter should be categorized as biphobic)? Flyer22 (talk) 18:56, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

I think the primary focus of the article should be scientific. I'm not sure that it's really helpful to mention a study showing that random, unqualified persons who happened to be heterosexual doubted the existence of bisexuality as a "legitimate sexual orientation", whatever that means. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 20:00, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

FreeKnowledgeCreator: I think by doubting that bisexuality as a "legitimate sexual orientation" means that people dont think that bisexuality is a real sexuality. Flyer22 did not say that those who participated in the study were all heterosexual but also lesbians and homosexuals. Flyer22: I am bisexual and I class that as biphobic so I think it should go in the biphobic article. Stormy Nights (talk) 20:36, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

The relevant point is that those disputing the "legitimacy" of bisexuality didn't have any relevant credentials. It's not important what their personal sexual preferences might be. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 22:50, 27 December 2013 (UTC)

Seems like Dispute Resolution might be necessary: Pansexuality

In response to my edits of the Sexual orientation, identity, behavior section on 9 April 2014, User:Flyer22 reverted, explaining: "disagree. This was already discussed on the talk page. And the paragraph is not contradicted by the Pansexuality article; there is generally no distinguishing bisexuality from pansexuality among scholars." I disagree. I researched the topic by searching peer-reviewed journal articles in the following databases: PsycBOOKS, PsycARTICLES, PsycINFO, CINAHL Plus with Full Text, Psychology and Behavioral Sciences Collection, SocINDEX with Full Text, and MEDLINE Complete. I found no evidence for a consensus opinion among sexuality scholars that "there is generally no distinguishing bisexuality from pansexuality". Should we seek a third opinion? Or perhaps we can hash it out and reach a consensus ourselves? --Mark D Worthen PsyD 11:34, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Markworthen, WP:Dispute resolution should generally only be sought after trying to work the matter out here on the talk page. This matter has already been worked out, in more than one area on Misplaced Pages, including the WP:Fringe noticeboard. Like I stated before, now shown at Talk:Bisexuality/Archive 3#Pansexuality: Most researchers certainly don't use the term pansexuality. And goodness knows I have done what I can to keep it from being listed as a sexual orientation on Template:Sexual orientation (it's there now, but not as a sexual orientation). See this statement made by me during Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Sexology for backstory on that. But also see the Talk:Bisexuality/Archive 3#Why is Pansexuality talked about in the description? discussion, and the two discussions following that for why mention of pansexuality is in the lead. Though bisexuality is most commonly defined as a person being romantically and/or sexually attracted to two sexes (male and female)/two genders (men and women), and is defined in only that way by the authoritative scientific organizations, such as the American Psychological Association and the American Psychiatric Association, enough sources define bisexuality as romantic and/or sexual attraction to "more than one gender" or "irrespective of gender," and, in some cases, "all sexes/genders." And that is exactly the definition of pansexuality. If we are going to mention in this article the other way that bisexuality is defined, which we should, we might as well call it by the term that has been assigned to it -- pansexuality. It doesn't make sense to me to mention the alternative definition of bisexuality without mentioning the term pansexuality. Additionally, mentioning pansexuality in the lead complies with WP:LEAD, considering that it is a significant aspect of the bisexuality topic and is covered in the Definitions section; its inclusion in the lead also allows for a compromise with people who apply the term bisexuality more loosely than how it is most commonly defined. And in this way...the lead is WP:Neutral on the topic and generally helps keep this kind of edit, which leads to this, this, this, this, this and this, from happening.

A lot more on this topic is addressed in that now archived discussion. So if you searched "PsycBOOKS, PsycARTICLES, PsycINFO, CINAHL Plus with Full Text, Psychology and Behavioral Sciences Collection, SocINDEX with Full Text, and MEDLINE Complete" and "found no evidence for a consensus opinion among sexuality scholars that 'there is generally no distinguishing bisexuality from pansexuality,"' it's because scholars generally do not have anything to state about pansexuality; sexual attraction to "more than one gender" is almost always defined as bisexuality among scholars; the sources used in the Bisexuality article to address pansexuality are a reflection of that. See WP:Fringe; I object to any WP:Fringe presentation of pansexuality, which, in this case, means presenting it as completely distinct from bisexuality and that it is generally considered a sexual orientation among scholars. When it is discussed among scholars, it's usually discussed as an alternative label to indicate bisexuality or in a different way than its more modern definition (sexual attraction to more than one sex/gender); it's often discussed in relation to how it was originally defined or in some other way (usually in relation to some disorder topic), as shown by this link on Google Scholar. And Googling "pansexuality" or "pansexual" on Google Books, as shown here and here, does not show too much of an improvement with regard to discussing the term, especially among experts in the field of sexuality/sexology as opposed to simply authors.

On a side note: I altered the heading of this section with ": Pansexuality" so that it is clear as to what this section is about; it will also help identifying the section once it is archived. Flyer22 (talk) 13:14, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

For reference to the edits edits made between you and me on this matter, here are all the diff-links so far:.

And of course I recently stated more to you on this topic at the Pansexuality article talk page. Flyer22 (talk) 21:45, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Note: Markworthen and I did settle the above the matter, as acknowledged here at his talk page. Also, like I noted with this edit, I changed the order of the second definition, making it a part of the first sentence, though I considered simply making it the second sentence and I might still do that; I rearranged the order because it may help to (is very likely to help) stop people from removing the primary definition (sexual/romantic attraction to males and females/men and women) and enable them to better see that we clearly do acknowledge the second definition (the one covered by pansexuality). It's usually IPs messing with the definitions, which is partly why the article is currently WP:Semi-protected (see here) via my request at WP:Requests for page protection. My followup edits are here and here. My order change resembles what I did here at the LGBT stereotypes article after reverting this and then tweaking the matter here and here. I didn't use "or" for the Bisexuality article, because, per WP:Due weight, I believe that its first sentence should be clearer that the binary definition is the primary definition. Flyer22 (talk) 00:15, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

Janis Joplin bisexual?

I have it on good authority, from Country Joe McDonald of Country Joe & The Fish, that Janis Joplin was indeed bisexual. McDonald quotes in his autobiography in the section, "Janis" that:

"I rode out to the Woodstock Festival on a plane that also carried Janis’s girlfriend at the time, Peggy Casserta. I knew Peggy from the Haight Ashbury days when I lived with Janis in her apartment on Lyon Street. I did not care that Janis was bisexual or that her and Peggy were lovers. That did not enter our conversations on the plane that day. I don’t know if Peggy knew of my liaison with Janis in the hotel. It never came up. Peggy has told the press and said in her book that I stood Janis up one day and that is why we broke up ... not true. We just broke up."

McDonald had lived with Joplin in the 1960s before he left her for his wife at the time, Robin. She showed a lot of anger toward him. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.114.98.75 (talk) 03:06, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

Definition of Bisexuality

When the article defines bisexuality, it states that it is attraction to both males and females, which is very limiting. It ignores the reality of intersex bodies, and that sex is a spectrum just like gender is. I believe a better definition would be "attraction to more than one gender" or "attraction to people of the same/similar gender to oneself and people of different genders from oneself." These are definitions provided by bisexual community resources such as The Bisexual Index (http://www.bisexualindex.org.uk/index.php/HomePage). I believe the current definition in this article contributes to the erasure of bisexuality because it shows bisexuality as reinforcing a gender or sex binary, and it ignores the definition provided by the bisexual community. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.5.82.62 (talk) 05:12, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

I believe this has been discussed before, but I couldn't find it in the talk archives. Misplaced Pages is not prescriptivist; the project tries to describe how words and concepts are used and understood, not how they should be used. To accomplish this, Misplaced Pages tries to draw on established, reputable sources. There are a lot of very good reasons for this, but it does mean it often lags behind when more progressive definitions start to become preferred. The current definition has three sources, one from the American Psychological Association, one from the American Psychiatric Association, and one from GLAAD. It doesn't look to me like the Bisexual Index's website meet Misplaced Pages's criteria as a reliable source. Regardless, the concept you are describing sounds a lot more like pansexuality than bisexuality. Since 'Bisexual' has 'binary' baked into its etymology, altering the definition is going to take some solid, solid sources. Grayfell (talk) 05:33, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

Thank you, Grayfell. And, yes, this matter has been discussed before on this talk page. IP, see the #Seems like Dispute Resolution might be necessary: Pansexuality discussion above, which addresses why the WP:Lead (introduction) is defined the way that it is; the definition you want is clearly in the WP:Lead and lower in the article (in the "Sexual orientation, identity, behavior" section), but that is not the definition that the vast majority of WP:Reliable sources use for bisexuality. Furthermore, bisexualindex.org.uk is not a WP:Reliable source and even states, in its "Bi means two so bisexuality is transphobic" section, that "there's some way to go before our definition is the most common one." For a fuller picture, they relay the following: "Bisexuality isn't an attempt to pigeonhole gender, it's the freedom to feel attraction without blinkers! But we agree that 'both' is an oddly limiting word for the category of 'everyone else' - this is why we say 'more than one gender' at the Bisexual Index. Ultimately though, we don't think anyone is obliged to use the word 'bisexual', and we agree there's some way to go before our definition is the most common one." The bisexual community is diverse, and a lot of them do indeed go by the binary models of bisexuality that you object to, while others embrace and/or advocate for non-binary models...sometimes changing over to the sexual identity pansexuality to indicate this.

And like I stated here at the bottom of the "An important point" discussion at the Transsexualism talk page, "Intersex people are usually biologically classified as male or female (based on physical appearance and/or chromosomal makeup, such as XY female or XX male), and usually identify as male or female; it's not the usual case that an intersex person wants to be thought of as neither male nor female. Being thought of as neither male nor female is usually a third gender or genderqueer matter, though the sex and gender distinction exists ... I'm not aware of science having actually identified a third sex, though intersex people and hermaphroditic non-human animals are sometimes classified as a third sex (by being a combination of both)... ...but gender is a broader field and researchers have identified three or more genders (again, see the Third gender article)." Flyer22 (talk) 05:51, 30 July 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 October 2014

It is requested that an edit be made to the semi-protected article at Bisexuality. (edit · history · last · links · protection log) This template must be followed by a complete and specific description of the request, that is, specify what text should be removed and a verbatim copy of the text that should replace it. "Please change X" is not acceptable and will be rejected; the request must be of the form "please change X to Y". The edit may be made by any autoconfirmed user. Remember to change the |answered=no parameter to "yes" when the request has been accepted, rejected or on hold awaiting user input. This is so that inactive or completed requests don't needlessly fill up the edit requests category. You may also wish to use the {{ESp}} template in the response. To request that a page be protected or unprotected, make a protection request.

The sentences

In 2005, the belief that bisexuality must involve equal sexual/romantic attraction was further perpetuated by researchers Gerulf Rieger, Meredith L. Chivers, and J. Michael Bailey, who concluded that bisexuality is extremely rare in men. This was based on results of controversial penile plethysmograph testing when viewing pornographic material involving only men and pornography involving only women.

are inaccurate.

In 2005, researchers Gerulf Rieger, Meredith L. Chivers, and J. Michael Bailey, published a study in which they did not find distinctly bisexual arousal patterns in about 30 men who identified as bisexual who were recruited by ads in gay and alternative press. This was based on results of penile plethysmograph testing when viewing pornographic material involving only men and pornography involving only women. The report stated that "in terms of identity and behavior, bisexual men clearly exist."

The sentences

Moreover, the assertion of Bailey that "for men arousal is orientation" was criticized by Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting (FAIR) as a simplification which neglects to account for behavior and self-identification. Bailey's study also recruited men via advertisements in "gay oriented magazines" and an alternative paper in Chicago, using no vetting process other than a person's choice to call themselves bi in response to an ad for a paid study. Further, some researchers hold that the technique used in the study to measure genital arousal is too crude to capture the richness (erotic sensations, affection, admiration) that constitutes sexual attraction. The National Gay and Lesbian Task Force called the study and The New York Times coverage of it flawed and biphobic.

are personal attacks on Mike Bailey, who has strident enemies. The FAIR and NGLTF were worked up by those activists. And the news is stale. I would bring it current with what follows below, and keep ONLY this:

Some researchers hold that the technique used in the study to measure genital arousal is too crude to capture the richness (erotic sensations, affection, admiration) that constitutes sexual attraction.

It was reported that Bailey's study was misinterpreted and misreported. In 2008, in a new study with the same technology but different recruiting criteria and stimuli, Bailey said he found bisexual genital arousal patterns in men. In 2011, he and other researchers reported that specifically among men with a history of several romantic and sexual relationships with members of both sexes, high levels of sexual arousal were found in response to both male and female sexual imagery. The authors noted this change in recruitment strategy was an important difference, but there was not enough data to establish a protocol to attain a representative sample of bisexual-identified men. Noting these factors, they concluded, "Bisexual-identified men with bisexual arousal patterns do indeed exist, however, and they present an interesting opportunity to illuminate the development and expression of male sexual orientation." A further study found a stronger bisexual arousal pattern in bisexual-identified men, compared to heterosexual and homosexual men, but that not all such identified men exhibited such arousal patterns.

is more accurate as

It was reported that Bailey's study was misinterpreted and misreported. In 2011, in a new study with the same technology but different recruiting criteria and stimuli, Bailey said he found bisexual genital arousal patterns in men. He and other researchers reported that specifically among men with a history of several romantic and sexual relationships with members of both sexes, high levels of sexual arousal were found in response to both male and female sexual imagery. The authors noted this change in recruitment strategy was an important difference, but there was not enough data to establish a protocol to attain a representative sample of bisexual-identified men. Men in the 2011 study were recruited from internet websites catering to men looking for sex with a man and a woman at the same time. Researchers concluded, "Bisexual-identified men with bisexual arousal patterns do indeed exist, however, and they present an interesting opportunity to illuminate the development and expression of male sexual orientation." A different report based on the same study indicated a stronger bisexual arousal pattern in bisexual-identified men, compared to heterosexual and homosexual men, but that not all such identified men exhibited such arousal patterns. In 2012, researchers at Cornell confirmed the existence of bisexual arousal patterns in pupil dilation in response to erotic stimuli. . In 2013, research confirmed bisexual patterns of viewing times secretly measured as participants rated attractiveness of models wearing swimsuits.

THANKS! JDMBA (talk) 23:31, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

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