Talk:2014 Scottish independence referendum

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A fact from 2014 Scottish independence referendum appeared on Misplaced Pages's Main Page in the Did you know column on 14 September 2009 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know
- ... that the Scottish Referendum Bill 2010 proposes that a referendum on Scottish independence be held on St. Andrew's Day 2010, Scotland's official national day?
A record of the entry may be seen at Misplaced Pages:Recent additions/2009/September.

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Missing info

I am looking for information about how it is decided. Is it a simple majority vote, or is there an absolute requirement? For example, if just 50,000 people vote, with 28,000 saying "yes", would that be sufficient to enact a new law? Please expand the article, as I think this information would be useful to many of our readers. C 679 19:38, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

Yes, it's a simple majority vote. Arguably that's something readers would take as read unless stated otherwise. Sofia9 (talk) 01:14, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

I don't think that 28,000 people being able to declare independence in a country of some 5 million is something to be taken as read. Thanks, C 679 15:28, 10 March 2014 (UTC)

I disagree, and it's profoundly depressing if we've got to the point where rigged rules (ie. abstentions being effectively counted as No votes) are automatically assumed to be a possibility unless explicitly stated otherwise. Sofia9 (talk) 03:12, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

Practice for referendums varies wildly around the world on just what is required for a change to pass, with a variety of minimum turnouts, minimum support amongst the total electorate, carry a minimum number of constituencies/districts and so forth, and this can actually be quite a contentious issue especially with independence - e.g. Quebec & Canada. With the notable exception of the 1979 referendums the UK practice has been simple majority on whatever turnout and trust that enough will happen to bring out more than three men and a dog to make the decision. But not everyone reading the article will be versed in that standard so it wouldn't hurt to explicitly state it. Timrollpickering (talk) 01:32, 17 March 2014 (UTC)

Has it been officially stated to be a simple majority vote? (I am not talking about including abstentions). The 1995 Quebec vote was 51% no to 49%, but would Quebec independence have gone ahead with only 51% in favour? Most referendums just require a law change, but independence would be a major constitutional change. Changes to constitutions usually require more than a simple majority eg for the Canadian Constitution assent from both houses and also by 2/3 of the provincial legislators representing 50% of the population (ie effectively Quebec or Ontario). And if independence was passed and then terms eg on the use of the pound agreed, would there be a second vote on the actual conditions which would apply? Hugo999 (talk) 12:20, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

The presumption is that a straight majority would be accepted. There is still some bad feeling about the failure of the 1979 devolution referendum because a Labour backbencher (a Scot representing a part of London) added a qualification that support had to reach 40% of the whole electorate. The yes vote won 52–48 but the turnout was only in the mid-60s, which meant that support didn't reach the 40% level and the proposal was not advanced further. The Edinburgh Agreement between UK and Scottish governments, setting the terms for this referendum, only says that "the two governments are committed to continue to work together constructively in the light of the outcome, whatever it is, in the best interests of the people of Scotland and the rest of the United Kingdom." I think it's important to bear in mind that there is no written constitution in the UK. What would happen next would depend entirely on the political reaction, in parliament, in the media and in opinion polls. My guess is that if a yes vote happened the mood in the rest of the UK would be "alright then, off you go", but that the continuing UK government would be fairly tough in negotiations, because they are up for election soon. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 12:48, 26 April 2014 (UTC)

Quebec in 1995 was a particularly messy case and it wasn't entirely clear if both Quebec & Canada would accept the same threshold (with all the legal consequences ) or for that matter just what a yes vote immediately meant. Since then there have been Supreme Court references and the federal and Quebec parliaments have passed contradictory legislation about who calls the shots on this one. By contrast the UK and Scottish governments have negotiated this and avoided the chaos of clarity acts. Timrollpickering (talk) 19:02, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

There's a lot more that's missing: What happens if the referendum passes? Is further action from the UK or Scottish parliaments required, or is the vote the end? When would it take effect? After reading this article, I'm not feeling particularly well-informed. 209.179.87.105 (talk) 22:55, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

If the article lacks clarity, it is because the situation is unclear. It isn't known exactly what would happen after a yes vote, largely because the UK government has refused to "pre-negotiate" anything and claims to be making no contingency plans at all for the event. All that can really be said at this point that negotiations will begin with the aim of reaching an independence settlement.GideonF (talk) 11:30, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

That position has been reiterated by David Cameron today (bottom three paragraphs) . Jmorrison230582 (talk) 11:54, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

This webpage says "Whichever option has the most votes will win the referendum, regardless of how many people turn out to vote." and "If a majority of those who vote want Scotland to be independent then Scotland would become an independent country after a process of negotiations. Following the negotiations Scotland would leave the United Kingdom and become a new and separate state." A link from this web page leads to a pdf which gives a proposed date of 24 March 2016 for the start of an independent Scotland (bottom of page numbered 376 in pdf). See also Scottish_Parliament_general_election_2016 and Scotland's_Future FrankSier (talk) 20:55, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

Enactment

What (definitely) happens if the referendum passes? Is there a timescale for negotiations between UK Government and Scottish government...?Bogger (talk) 22:19, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

No, all that has been publicly stated or agreed is the Edinburgh Agreement, which commits both governments to work together constructively. It has been reported recently that the UK Government has not done any contingency work on what to do if Scotland votes for independence . Jmorrison230582 (talk) 06:15, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

Issues section is too long

Right now the "Issues" section has become gigantic and dominates the article. I think it would be sufficient to just have a few paragraphs summarizing the "Yes" position and a few summarizing the "No" side. I don't think it's really necessary to go over their views on every possible topic. 108.254.160.23 (talk) 01:17, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

I don't agree. The referendum has been a long time coming; just about every issue that could conceivably be affected by independence has been debated. Therefore this is what most of the coverage has focused on. It isn't like (say) a US presidential election, where there are dozens if not hundreds of electoral events (debates, primaries, people entering and withdrawing) before the actual election, which means that there is more focus on process rather than the issues. There was some discussion of process earlier on as to whether a referendum would be legal, but this was effectively ended by the Edinburgh Agreement, when the UK government gave the Scottish Government legal permission to hold one under certain conditions. Since then (autumn 2012) it has only been about the debate over issues. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 05:09, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Agriculture

This is a small point, but in the Agriculture section it says that the "convergence" payments were as a result of the UK's "productivity" being more than 10 % below the EU average. I think this is wrong, it wasn't productivity that was the issue but average subsidy payments per hectare, which is an entirely different thing. However the source for "productivity" is a BBC webpage, and I am not a confident enough Misplaced Pages user to just change something sourced to the BBC. Does anyone else want to be bold ? Idealfarmer (talk) 19:30, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/cap-fund-deal-a-slap-in-the-face-says-lochhead-1-3185985 http://news.scotland.gov.uk/News/Scotland-s-CAP-budget-cut-5f7.aspx http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Topics/farmingrural/Agriculture/CAP/CAPEurope10112012/budget-facts31102012 Idealfarmer (talk) 19:52, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

I think I have corrected it for what you are saying. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 20:07, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

Prior to this, the Kingdom of Scotland had been a sovereign state for over 800 years - Questionable

"Prior to this , the Kingdom of Scotland had been a sovereign state for over 800 years" is that really true? Only at a stretch. One might just as well say (and just as doubtfully) that England too had been a soveriegn state for over 800 years. The idea of sovereign states is an 18th century concept. Moreover 800 years before 1707 Britain was still in the process of consolidating smaller kingdoms, of which the original 'Scot-land' was then still but a part of what later became the Scotland we think of today. If modern England were instead called Wessex we'd think it odd. But because Northern Britain perpetuated the name of one of its earler constituent kingdoms we don't notice and thus mistakenly assume direct continuity. Furthermore the exact status of Scot-land and its kings between the Norman Conquest after 1066 and its independence under Robert the Bruce in the early 14th century seems difficult to describe in modern constitutional terminology. But the very concept of gaining independence suggests that Scotland was not until then a sovereign state as the term is now used. Cassandra — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.5.3.199 (talk) 13:27, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

I noticed this sentence when I popped on Misplaced Pages the other day and gave this article a brief glance. I can't personally deal with articles like this one at this time, but given the early date I'm not sure that "sovereign state" is ever going to the appropriate term to use. The use of the approximating "over" probably at least in part demonstrates why. It's a loose sentence really, and should be expressed much better. I don't comment on anything else because I haven't looked though it. Matt Lewis (talk) 20:44, 13 August 2014 (UTC)

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