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Book: The Damned Don't Drown
Recently I added The Damned Don't Drown by A.V. Sellwood to the list of books about the Wilhelm Gustloff. I indicated that this is a "fictionalized account" of the sinking, which means that the accounts are true but that they have been retold in a fictionalized format in order to both flesh them out and merge them together into a readable story. My wording has twice been changed by an anonymous contributor, probably well-meaning, to read that the book is a "work of fiction on the tragedy", citing the copyright page.
I don't wish to get into a revert war with this nameless person, so I'll list my reasons here.
Firstly, "fiction" implies that the characters and their stories have been invented. In fact, I can personally attest to the accuracy of one account, which is that of my own partner and her mother.
Secondly, I've checked the copyright page of my book and it doesn't mention "fiction".
Thirdly, A.V. Sellwood includes a "Personal Note" at the front of the book, in which he writes:
- Today, in The Damned Don't Drown, I have attempted a reconstruction of the tragedy ...
I hope this sufficiently justifies my characterizing Sellwood's book as a "fictionalized account", yet I remain open to any evidence that justifies the opposing point of view. Ian Fieggen (talk) 01:07, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
Added Sellwood book to "Further Reading"
Fictionalized accounts are by definition poor choices as sources for encyclopedia articles. But I don't know of any policies prohibiting them from being listed under "Further reading" if they are in fact about the article's subject/topic. I've added this book to "Further reading" along with the recent one by Cathryn Prince (2013). Both Prince and Sellwood's books have WorldCat records to which I've linked. ChristineBushMV (talk) 04:52, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
Wilhelm Gustloff
it is my opinion that the articles on the sinkings of the Willhelm Gustloff and the Goya and others should be listed under German shipwrecks because they were German ships operating in German waters - Konigsberg, Danzig, East Prussia, Pomerania etc were all a part of Germany at that time, and had been an integral part of Germany for many years prior to the WW2. 68.103.125.194 (talk) 21:05, 5 October 2008 (UTC)Malcolm Freeman
Ship history
I placed and expand tag on the ship history section. I feel that we should provide more information on the Wilhelm Gustloff prior to it's military career. Some of provided links are good sources for this. If I get a chance I'll try to add some material.Shinerunner (talk) 21:17, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
Move to MV Wilhelm Gustloff
The page was recently moved (renamed) to "MV Wilhelm Gustloff". I'm just wondering if "MV" shouldn't be changed into "MS" (Motorschiff) or similar, to use the proper German abbreviation. At least I think we should be consistent in using the native language designations (is there a policy regarding this?). Please compare to the German WW1 warships, which are all called "SMS" (Seiner Majestät Schiff). What do you think? Cheers MikeZ (talk) 10:25, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
- It does seem a bit strange. As well as this, the ship is most notable for its sinking, at which time it was a naval vessel. Clearly it would have had different German designations during its career, so perhaps a better name would be "Wilhelm Gustloff (German ship)" or something similar. By comparison, we have:German battleship Bismarck and German cruiser Emden.--Jack Upland (talk) 07:16, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
podcast of an interview with three survivors of the sinking (available till mid-February 2009)
On a recent radio broadcast of Late Night Live (Australian Broadcasting Corporation), the presenter, Phillip Adams, speaks for almost an hour with three survivors of the sinking, along with a historian and one of the wreck divers. The program first aired in 2005 but was repeated last night. This is the link to the podcast - which are normally only available for about two weeks (which is why I'm placing the link here rather than in the links section of the article). The page also lists a book (written in Swedish) which I didn't see listed in the article. Title: Dodens Hav ('Sea of Death') Author: Claes-Goran Wetterholm Publisher: Prisma, Sweden, 2003 GlenDillon 07:20, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
- Note: The podcast of Late Night Live mentioned by Glen Dillon is still available after five years on the ABC website, under the link given (download and listening tested). --Zipor haNefesch (talk) 14:24, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
lead-in
explanation of my changes to the recent edit by IP editor: (1) "the Soviets" , in my view is a somewhat unencylopedic phrase - ie it was a Soviet sub, not the Soviet 'people'. Lives are not killed - people are. Lives are lost. Also - the term 'killing' may imply 'direct effect', such as those killed directly by the torpedoes, of which there was undoubtedly many. Obviously, the main cause of the loss of life was the Soviet sub's attack, but killed doesn't seem the best term. (2) Most of them 'civilians' - again- true - but this is not what made it the largest maritime disaster. (3) The term 'worst' is also unencyclopedic - because of its ambiguity. It was numerically the greatest loss of life. 'Worst' could be taken to mean other things such as 'most immoral' etc. (4) Finally - the term 'human' in 'human history' is redundant. In the context of maritime disaters, history=human history. (5) ALso - please note the number of lives. It was recently changed from 9k to 7k - without much explanation, other than a ref to the Deepimage website. (6) There is still a mismatch between the numbers stated in the intro paragraphs. I haven't attemted to resolve this, yet it is a glaring problem in the article. GlenDillon 15:12, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
She vs. He
Isn't it traditional in the German navy to refer to ships in the Masculine? I might be mistaken about that. --Nukes4Tots (talk) 20:27, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
- There's a suggestion it might have applied to Bismarck, but not that it was a tradition; but so what? This is the WP for the English language, where it is traditional to refer to ships as "she". Xyl 54 (talk) 13:06, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
- German wikipedia refers to the ship in the feminine, Die Wilhelm Gustloff, Bismarck is also feminine after a review of that article, Die Bismarck. --Farkeld (talk) 13:14, 30 January 2010 (UTC)
- In German (my native language), as a general rule, all ships are feminine. -- HH 85.180.213.210 (talk) 20:15, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
The ship is actually referred to as "it" for much of the article!--Jack Upland (talk) 23:35, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
Gunter Grass dead link
I'm not sure how to edit the list of references, but no. 12 supposedly linking to the 2003 Gunter Grass article in the nytimes is a dead link. here is the active link to the article in the times' archive http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/08/books/still-intrigued-history-s-shadows-gunter-grass-worries-about-effects-war-then.html?ref=gunter_grass if a more experienced editor could fix this it would be greatly appreciated —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.90.164.50 (talk) 18:44, 11 June 2010 (UTC)
Diverted his war effort
It has been suggested that Hitler diverted a lot of his war effort in order to fulfil his (fanatical) dream of the final solution rather than resupply his army or evecuate his people.86.165.49.91 (talk) 20:12, 25 January 2011 (UTC)Jack
- I think that's an exaggeration, though of course the Final Solution did use resources that could have been used elsewhere. However, it is relevant to note that Hitler delayed evacuating civilians because of his unwillingness to accept defeat, leading to this tragedy.--Jack Upland (talk) 23:48, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
Hmmm,origin of German civilians
Perhaps it would be to interesting to know how it happened that a formerly Polish city without any significant German population, was suddenly full of German civilian population.Could it be that they were Nazi administrators and colonists sent to occupied Poland after 1939?--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 15:31, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
- No, it certainly couldn't. Just have a look at the political map of that part of Europe, and you'll see that Gdingen/Gdynia (which had been a part of Germany before 1920 for about 150 years) was full of refugees from the surrounding areas which had either a substantial German population minority or even a majority (as in the case of Danzig /Gdansk, which was 95% ethnically German, and its vicinity). -- HH 85.180.213.210 (talk) 20:36, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
Indeed, most of the passengers were from Danzig or East Prussia, which had had a majority of German inhabitants ever since the middle ages. Some also came from the 'Memelland' north of East Prussia, which the international community had awarded to Lithuania after WWI despite an overwhelming proportion of the population wanting to remain within Germany. Similarly, a small number originated from the former West Prussia, which had had a mixed population for the preceding few hundred years but which the Versailles treaty awarded to Poland after WWI. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.106.109.24 (talk) 19:05, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
It's primary mission
Wat to transport submarine crews to Kiel as per this article. What for? Were there submarines in Kiel that they were to use in fight of Nazi Germany against Allies?--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 15:46, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
- There were submarines in Kiel, but at that time of the war many, if not most of them, were out of order/non-functional for various reasons, mainly lack of fuel, armament and other supplies. The primary reason those navy sailors were moved westwards was just to avoid them becoming prisoners of the Red Army. -- HH 85.180.213.210 (talk) 20:41, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
That is not true. Germany was still fighting hard, and the redeployment of troops from pockets in the east into Germany proper was highly strategically important.--Jack Upland (talk) 01:50, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
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"War Crime"
Despite Grass's opinions, it is commonly believed that the sinking of the Wilhelm Gustloff was one of the worst war crimes of the century, if not one of the worst in history.
I don't exactly disagree with this sentiment, but I'm not comfortable with the manner in which it's presented, without citations. "It is commonly believed that" is an obvious weasel-word phrase and one that can easily be abused by partisans of whatever opinion.
Certainly, the drownings of many thousands of refugees, many of them women and children, late in the war, which occurred in the sinkings of the Gustloff, the MV Goya and the SS General von Steuben, served no military purpose, and thus could arguably be classified as war crimes. However, it also can be (and has been) argued that from a strictly military point of view these ships were legitimate military targets, given the practices of the German-Soviet war, in which no quarter was given. Captain Alexander Marinesko presumably thought so.
The fact that he was posthumously named a "Hero of the Soviet Union" in the dying days of the Soviet regime, in 1990, speaks volumes about the Russian point of view and the cynicism of military thinking generally. That the Russians chose to erect a monument to Marinesko, whose primary accomplishment in World War II was drowning thousands of German civilians — in of all places Kaliningrad, the ex-German city of Königsberg — is to my mind particularly cynical and obnoxious. But all things considered, I don't know that these sinkings are generally or universally viewed as war crimes, any more than are the bombing of German and Japanese cities, which killed hundreds of thousands of civilians.
Personally, I agree with Grass that the Gustloff sinking was "a terrible result of war" — a terrible war on both sides.
Sca (talk) 22:04, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
- Regarding the "Hero of the Soviet Union" it might be viewed in part as a very late rectification of the strange events and incarceration after war. Typical pattern in communist Russia - hangem and declare heroes posthumously pretty much regardless of their deeds.Richiez (talk) 13:03, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
- Regarding war crime or not be bold and revert anything without a reputable source. The war was terrible and in itself a war crime. Richiez (talk) 13:32, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
- War is inherently immoral, in my view. Sca (talk) 15:58, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
- Replying here to this comment on my talkpage. The paragraph you have introduced is problematical for several reasons:
- I don't think Grass is qualified to say whether it was a war crime or not, he is neither a historian nor does he have any strong background in legal affairs as far as I know. It just does not make sense to introduce his opinion here.
- Misplaced Pages has standards such as WP:MOS and if you edit articles you need to respect those standards. Controversial claims can not be introduced without reliable sources. If a reliable source claims it was a war crime that source can be cited as a claim.
- Richiez (talk) 11:13, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
- Replying here to this comment on my talkpage. The paragraph you have introduced is problematical for several reasons:
- Self published sources are rarely sufficient to make controversial claims, much less those from Institute for Historical Review. I am sure you will find better sources. Richiez (talk) 20:08, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
- Please see WP:RS for guidance on sources. Richiez (talk) 22:47, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
Crime implies knowledge. The submarine crew apparently had no knowledge that civilians were on board. As a navy ship the Gustloff was clearly a legitimate military target. However, this issue should be canvassed in the article--Jack Upland (talk) 23:58, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
- Crime doesn't necessarily imply knowledge like this. Whoever crashes into a car killing someone will face manslaughter charges in most countries of the world whether or not he knew someone was inside the car.
- The article should only report what reliable sources say about this. Richiez (talk) 23:11, 25 December 2012 (UTC)
Sinking an enemy naval ship in wartime would not normally be called a war crime. The fact that there were in fact thousands of civilians on board is crucial to the case, and it appears that the submariners did not know this. If there is a source which says otherwise, that should be reported.
The discussion above really distorts the reality of the war. The Baltic coastline was a key strongpoint of the German army. The German navy was instrumental in supporting these positions. Hitler made Admiral Donitz his successor, reflecting the value he placed on the navy's role in the last-ditch defence of Germany. To portray this as merely a refugee issue of no military significance is totally false. To state that "no quarter was given" is also false. The Red Army was accepting the surrender of German forces and had no policy of attacking refugees or civilians in general.--Jack Upland (talk) 01:32, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
- I don't want to stir up an argument that's already been argued at length elsewhere, but I strongly disagree with the suggestion that the Red Army in 1945 "had no policy of attacking refugees or civilians." Many thousands of German civilians were mistreated and killed by vengeful Soviet soldiers, especially during the Red Army's initial advance into East Prussia. This is voluminously documented. Furthermore, as Solzhenitsyn noted in The Gulag Archipelago —
- "... all of us knew very well that if the girls were German they could be raped and then shot. This was almost a combat distinction." (Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn: The Gulag Archipelago, Volume I, New York, 1973, p. 21 .)
- That the Soviets had reason to feel vengeful goes without saying. But anyone who wants to argue that Soviet retribution didn't happen won't get another peep out of me. I'm tired of talking about it.
But that's not a policy. At the same time as Solzenitsyn was arrested, rapists were arrested too. Hence the above quote.--Jack Upland (talk) 05:30, 6 January 2013 (UTC)
- No comment. Sca (talk) 00:55, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
I don't think you're tired of talking about it. I think you just want to assert your opinion without question. Anyway, to prove it was a "war crime", it needs to be proved that Marinesko knew this naval ship had civilian refugees on board. That would be very hard to do.--Jack Upland (talk) 21:23, 7 January 2013 (UTC)
- I am tired of talking about it. Not a pleasant topic. However:
- During the massive Soviet offensive across eastern Germany in early 1945, Red Army soldiers were inculcated with hate propaganda by Ilya Ehrenburg, such as this passage quoted by Alfred de Zayas in "Nemesis at Potsdam":
- "Germany is a witch ... We are in Germany. German towns are burning, I am happy. ... Germany, you can now whirl around in circles, and burn, and howl in your deathly agony; the hour of revenge has struck!"
- "Kill. Nothing in Germany is quiltless, neither the living nor the yet unborn. Follow the words of Comrade Stalin and crush forever the fascist beast.... Break the racial pride of the German woman. Take her as your legitimate booty."
- — Alfred M. de Zayas, "Nemesis at Potsdam," London, 1969, p. 201.
See the article on Ilya Ehrenburg which states this is a Nazi fabrication. Note also the Ehrenburg was muzzled by the Soviet government because of his anti-German slant. Antony Beevor's Berlin has a lot of evidence relevant to this issue, even though his interpretation of this evidence is biased (for example, he wrongly describes the Wilhelm Gustloff as a "sea-cruise liner"). However, I think this is straying off the topic of the page. As far as the Soviet submariners knew, the ship was a military transport, redeploying German troops against the oncoming Red Army. It would be quite different if the ship had been flying a Red Cross or a white flag. It was a self-identified naval vessel in one of the most bitterly contested war zones in world history. If there is evidence that the submariners knew the ship was full of civilians, then that should be documented in the article. I doubt it. And by the way it was Gorbachev, not Stalin who made Marinesko a "Hero of the Soviet Union".--Jack Upland (talk) 08:56, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
- But, the Gustloff was indeed built as a kind of cruise liner, for the Nazis' "Strength Through Joy" cruises.
- Re your contention that the Ehrenburg "kill" propaganda was a Nazi fabrication, I don't believe the issue has been settled in an objectively documented manner. Even the "Criticism" section of the article on Antony Beevor takes a more neutral POV than yours, which to me appears to be pro-Soviet.
- You need to carefully distinguish the "kill Germans" statements and "rape German women" statement. First one has never been denied and originates from 1942 and earlier, at a time when Russian troops were 1000+ miles away from any German civilians - thus it can not be interpreted as a call to kill German civilians. The "rape German women" is clearly a Nazi fabrication according to German WP article on that. It is well known that Russian soldiers went on raping in the Russian Zone of Germany even after the Red Army introduced (and applied) the death penalty for this. Richiez (talk) 23:15, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
- If you reread my remarks above about the Gustloff and the other torpedoed/sunk German ships, you will see that I don't necessarily consider them war crimes per se. Rather, I agree with Grass that they were "terrible results of a terrible war" — started, it is certainly true, by Germany.
- I'm aware that the Kaliningrad monument to Marinseko was erected during Gobachev's tenure. That makes no difference as to its essentially cynical and obnoxious character. (I'm not aware that Gorbachev had any personal role in the project.) It's as if the we were to erect a memorial, say, to American and British bomber pilots in Dresden — though on a different scale. But by the same token, I wouldn't accuse those Allied fliers of a war crime; it was the policy or strategy that was, in early 1945 when the war was nearly over, at fault.
- Finally, I'm also very much aware the the Soviets had much more reason, on an individual basis, to hate the Germans than we in the West did. It is, unfortunately, human nature to thirst for revenge. That does not make revenge moral, in my view — and in the view of certain other teachers of ethics historically. Sca (talk) 15:44, 8 January 2013 (UTC)
Well, the ship wasn't a cruise liner when it was sunk. And that's the point. And, apparently, there is no evidence that the submariners were operating according to a "thirst for revenge".--Jack Upland (talk) 08:30, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
- Agreed that there's "no evidence" with regard to the crew of the S-13, who perhaps were unaware of the identity of the Gustloff and the nature of its passengers. The German Navy took no steps to provide the ship with some kind of non-naval status or identity, and indeed it carried some military personnel. In the context of the mutually savage war in East, such would have had little effect.
- However, it's very likely that the Soviet Navy was aware, from aerial reconnaissance and other military intelligence, that the German ships traversing the Baltic were carrying refugees. Treks of refugees had been arriving in Danzig and Pillau for weeks, and the docks in Danzig were thronged with refugees. More than a million German civilians were ferried westward by German ships of every kind over an extended period of time, and the Soviets cannot have been unaware of this.
- It’s worth noting that during WWII U.S. submarines routinely torpedoed and sank any and all Japanese ships they encountered, without warning. The same may be said of British submarines and German ships, although the latter soon were swept from the Atlantic sea lanes by the Allied navies. And of course, German U-boats did the same, with a few exceptions early in the war.
- It was a terrible war for all concerned. Witness the SS Cap Arcona disaster, a result of British, not Soviet, aerial warfare.
Put into the context of what was going on along the coast at the same time, with mile-long convoys of refugees, mostly women, old men and children, making their way on foot across the ice of the Vistula Lagoon (Frisches Haff) while being fired on from Soviet fighter planes flying at low altitude, it should become clear what sort of frame of mind led to the sinking of the Gustloff. Whether it was technically a war crime or not is quite irrelevant. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.106.109.24 (talk) 19:14, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
- I don't think this style of argument is acceptable. Whether it's a war crime or not is relevant, and it's not a technicality. However, citing other incidents is irrelevant. Either discuss what really happened with the Wilhelm Gustloff or leave the field.--Jack Upland (talk) 06:39, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
Porthole
Can someone explain what this portion of the cutline (caption) below the photo of the recovered porthole means? — ...donated to the Museum ship Albatross in Damp 2000. "Damp 2000" ?? And where is the "Museum ship Albatross" ? Sca (talk) 17:12, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
- It's in Damp, Germany. Transferred in the year 2000.--Jack Upland (talk) 23:52, 24 December 2012 (UTC)
- Oh, a little Dorf in Schleswig-Holstein. German Wiki says it has a population of 112. Sca (talk) 23:43, 4 January 2013 (UTC)
- Damp 2000 is the spa resort, rehab clinic and yacht port of the village of Damp, as H. Raeder noted below. It was built in the 1970s. 'Albatros' is a museum ship laid up on the beach there. It hosted an exhibition about the "Rescue via sea" in 1945 (closed in 1999), which is probably where this porthole went. See text and map in the museum registry for Schleswig-Holstein at Museen Nord (in English).--Zipor haNefesch (talk) 14:48, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
May be you are wrong. Damp 2000 is part of the village of Damp. "Damp 2000" is a private owned yacht port (with hotels and hospitals) in the city of Damp. It was founded in the years before the year 2000. That is why they called it "Damp 2000". --Dr. Hartwig Raeder (talk) 06:49, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
Re: section on "Books, Documentaries, and Movies"
Lists are popular on Misplaced Pages, but they generally bloat rather than improve an article. I would like to discuss improving this article by moving the listings in the "Books, Documentaries, and Movies" section into sub-sections under "Also see," "Further reading", or "External links". ChristineBushMV (talk) 05:27, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
Talk Page Guidelines Have Been Violated
I recently removed four of the above sections from this talk page: "Diverted his war effort", "Hmmm, origin of German civilians", "It's primary mission", and "War Crimes". These changed were almost immediately reverted by User:Dr.K. because this user thought they were "invalid" appeals to Misplaced Pages:What_Wikipedia_is_not#FORUM, which is clear: "bear in mind that talk pages exist for the purpose of discussing how to improve articles. Talk pages are not mere general discussion pages about the subject of the article..."
Threads on Talk pages that do not meet this standard cannot be deemed "invalid" by fiat, nor do they avoid scrutiny simply because they are "old." Extended discussions regarding an extremely complex topics such as Hitler's grand design, war crimes, or origins of German civilian populations are clearly not the intended purpose of the Talk page for this article. This is underscored by Misplaced Pages:Talk_page_guidelines: "The purpose of a Misplaced Pages talk page (accessible via the talk or discussion tab) is to provide space for editors to discuss changes to its associated article or project page. Article talk pages should not be used by editors as platforms for their personal views on a subject."
I initially placed this message on User:Dr.K. Talk page from which it was also promptly scrubbed. Hopefully others will be less reactive and more responsive, but I feel these sections should be purged --- not archived. ChristineBushMV (talk) 06:50, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
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