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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Andries (talk | contribs) at 18:41, 8 July 2006 (→First assertion: violation of What Misplaced Pages is not). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Revision as of 18:41, 8 July 2006 by Andries (talk | contribs) (→First assertion: violation of What Misplaced Pages is not)(diff) ← Previous revision | Latest revision (diff) | Newer revision → (diff)

Anyone, whether directly involved or not, may add evidence to this page. Please make a header for your evidence and sign your comments with your name.

When placing evidence here, please be considerate of the arbitrators and be concise. Long, rambling, or stream-of-conciousness rants are not helpful.

As such, it is extremely important that you use the prescribed format. Submitted evidence should include a link to the actual page diff; links to the page itself are not sufficient. For example, to cite the edit by Mennonot to the article Anomalous phenomenon adding a link to Hundredth Monkey use this form: .

This page is not for general discussion - for that, see talk page.

Please make a section for your evidence and add evidence only in your own section. Please limit your evidence to a maximum 1000 words and 100 diffs, a much shorter, concise presentation is more likely to be effective. Please focus on the issues raised in the complaint and answer and on diffs which illustrate behavior which relates to the issues.

If you disagree with some evidence you see here, please cite the evidence in your own section and provide counter-evidence, or an explanation of why the evidence is misleading. Do not edit within the evidence section of any other user.

Be aware that the Arbitrators may at times rework this page to try to make it more coherent. If you are a participant in the case or a third party, please don't try to refactor the page, let the Arbitrators do it. If you object to evidence which is inserted by other participants or third parties please cite the evidence and voice your objections within your own section of the page. It is especially important to not remove evidence presented by others. If something is put in the wrong place, please leave it for the arbitrators to move.

The Arbitrators may analyze evidence and other assertions at /Workshop. /Workshop provides for comment by parties and others as well as arbitrators. After arriving at proposed principles, findings of fact or remedies voting by Arbitrators takes place at /Proposed decision. Only Arbitrators may edit /Proposed decision.

Evidence presented by Andries

First assertion

First of all, I admit that I have engaged in edit warring with user:SSS108 on the article Sathya Sai Baba, but mitigating factors for this are 1. that I have seriously engaged in various forms of dispute resolution such as fruitless repetitive discussions on the talk page, requests for comments (which yielded no comments) 2. User:SSS108 initially did not follow the very basic principles of the Misplaced Pages policies such as no original research and did understand or believe me when I tried again and again and again to explain this to him. 3. I believe that my behavior on the article Sathya Sai Baba has been significantly better in accordance with policies and certainly more constructive that of user:SSS108. After all I wrote most of the contents in the article. Andries 22:03, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Jossi's statement on this page is unrelated to the article Sathya Sai Baba, but related to the articles guru and talk:Sikhism

On 21:59, June 2, 2006, User:AmiDaniel blocked Andries with an expiry time of 24 hours (WP:3RR violation on Talk:Sikhism -- second offense)

The burden of proof that a comment on this page is related to the article Sathya Sai Baba is on the person making this comment. I do not have to prove for each of the many off-topic comments on this page that it is unrelated to Sathya Sai Baba Andries 06:06, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Jossi's statement on this page was related to the article apostasy. It was not related to the article Sathya Sai Baba, nor to New Religious movements.

  • 15:40, July 24, 2005 "I have to admit that I have been a POV pusher on the latter subject because I am an ex-cult member and I hate to be called a liar with regards to a very difficult experience of my life that I tried to tell in an accurate, factual way to others."

Andries 06:13, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

The following comments by Jossi on this page are unrelated to the article Sathya Sai Baba, but are related to the article post cult trauma. In addition I think that adding original research in the external link section is at worst a very mild violation of policies. Also, quite a lot of the information that I posted in the internet testimony was also published by a reasonably reputable source i.e. a broadcast by a Dutch TV news programm i.e. Tabloid on (SBS 6) in which I told my story. See a copy of the video movie in which I told my story on Dutch TV in Dutch language. You can ask one of the many Dutch speaking contributors in the English Misplaced Pages to verify my statement in this regard. . Scroll down to "Over Sai Baba in Tabloid (SBS 6)" Andries 06:41, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

I think that the complaint by user:SSS108 on this page that I divulge personal information (i.e. his name) is very strange and I think highly exaggerated, because he lists his homepage on his user page as of 8 July 2006. In turn his homepage mentions his name as of 8 July 2006 “Looking for Joe Moreno? Joe "Gerald" Vishwarupa Moreno” “ In addition, he even reverted himself to a version on the article Sathya Sai Baba that mentions his name Here is user:SSS108 complaint about this issue on this page as a reference

"First of all, I would like to point out that Andries constantly divulges personal information about me by listing my real name on Misplaced Pages. I have asked him to desist from doing this (Ref) and (as one can see) he refuses to stop. Unlike Andries, I have not used my real name as my "wiki-name". Therefore, I request the ArbCom to ask Andries to stop divulging my full name on Misplaced Pages."

Andries 09:20, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

The following statement by SSS108 on this page is misleading

"I would also like to point out that most of the "original research" that Andries complained about, that was added to the Sathya Sai Baba (henceforth referred to as "SSB") article, was not added by me but by Thaumaturgic.The reason I did not object to the "original research" taken from my site was because Andries allowed the "original research" of Anti-Sai Activists taken from their sites."

First of all, SSS108 personally repeatedly re-added his original research from his website in reverts. Secondly, he reverted me repeatedly when I wanted to remove all original research including "original research of Anti-Sai Activists". This shows that I was willing to remove original research after complaints on the talk page and that user:SS108 blatantly continued to violate the policy Misplaced Pages:No Original Research even after many warnings and discussion. After several months and only after a mediator intervened he stopped reverting me. I believe that he stopped reverting me only because he realized that he would lose all credibility if he continued to blatantly violate the Misplaced Pages:No Original Research Andries 13:49, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

SSS108 responded to my argument as follows in this page

"Andries failed to mention is that he objected to material taken from my personal website ((View Thread 1 - View Thread 2), yet refused to remove the links that directly solicited his personal Anti-SSB website (which locked users into a framed page where a full menu of Anti-Sai links were provide; which I believe was observed by BostonMA as this was discussed in mediation). I refused to remove references to my site as long as Andries refused to remove the links that solictied his website."

What SSS108 is saying here is because I had used anti-SSB websites with online copies of reputable sources such as the BBC or University press articles as convenience links in the reference section then SSS108 finds it okay to quote himself from his personal homepage in the main text of the article. I had tried and tried and tried to explain to him that there is a huge difference between it, but to no avail. See for example here my fruitless repetitive attempt to educate user:SSS108 on basic Misplaced Pages policies. And I always agreed to linking to the website of the original publisher if the contents was available online, instead of convenience links to anti-SSB websites. Andries 16:10, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

The following statement by user:SSS108 on this page is misleading

"Regarding this same issue, Andries also attempted to push the link to saiguru.net (another Anti-SSB Site) which is a mirror site to the hetnet.nl/~exbaba site (which happens to be Andries Anti-SSB website). Saiguru.net duplicates content (verbatim) taken almost exclusively from Andries website. In order to get around my complaints about Andries linking to and promoting his personal Anti-SSB website, he instead links to the saiguru.net site and says that is okay even though the content originated from his site to begin with! Therefore, all of Andries claims to complying with Misplaced Pages policies (past and present) are patently false and misleading."

First of all the website http://www.saiguru.net is not a mirror of the website http://www.exbaba.com with which I am affiliated. I started linking to http://www.saiguru.net instead of http://www.exbaba.com, because I considered it somewhat inappropriate to link to a website with which an editor is personally affiliated. I am not affiliated with http://www.saiguru.net It is maintained by another webmaster (Lionel Fernandez) than http://www.exbaba.com (Reinier van der Sandt). I do not think that I broke any Misplaced Pages policy by linking to the website http://www.saiguru.net. Andries 07:31, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

User:SSS108 repeatedly removed an attributed statement on the article Sathya Sai Baba referenced to a reputable source i.e. an article in salon.com The allegations by critics of sexual abuse of boys are relevant to the notability of this public figure who claims to be God and free of desires and acquired followers on the basis of these claims. The relevant guideline in this case is Misplaced Pages:Biographies of living persons Andries 01:29, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

The following statement made by user:SSS108 on this page is unrelated to the article Sathya Sai Baba, but related to the article list of cults.

Andries attempted to cite the original research of Alexandra Nagel (an article which was specifically addressed in mediation with BostonMA and shown to be an un-reliable source that also constituted original research: Ref) on the List of groups referred to as cults (Ref). View the partial discussion thread that ensued.

In addition, I deny that I broke the Misplaced Pages:No Original Research or Misplaced Pages:Verifiability with this edit. I cited an article by Nagel that quoted a reputable source (book by Chryssides) which justified my edit and made this explicit with the Misplaced Pages:Cite guideline that I followed meticulously and that was unambigous in this respect until user:Jossi changed it, because as he state he did not agree with the way I interpreted the guideline. . Jossi was the first one to change this guideline triggered by the discussion between user:Jossi, user:Andries and user:SSS108 on Talk:List_of_groups_referred_to_as_cults/archive6#Original_Research. I thought and still think that it safe to assume that the article by Nagel cites the reputable source (book by Chryssides) correctly and that I thus followed all the then applicable Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines with my edit.Andries 08:46, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

I consider the following statement made on this page by user:SSS108 misleading

  • And is if this isn't enough to make my case that Andries is acting contrary to good faith, a controversial edit regarding Jens Sethi (going back to April 22nd 2006, which was a point to be mediated by BostonMA before he left on May 6th 2006: Ref), was edited back into the SSB Misplaced Pages article today itself (July 7th 2006), by Andries (Ref), without discussion, agreement or forewarning.

First of all I do not see how my edit contradicts good faith. Yes, the question whether to include the criminal complaint filed by Jens Sethi in Munich was agreed upon to be a subject of mediation and has been discussed extensively, so it untrue as SSS108 that I re-inserted the statement "without discussion". This has been discussed extensively at User:SSS108/Introductory_Paragraph_Sandbox#Jens_Sethi More importantly he completely reverted my edits to a version that contains errors. I had removed the errors with my edit. Here is the version by SSS108 that contains errors . I explained on the talk page why I removed the clean up tag that I considered exaggerated ,but user:SSS108 re-added it without explanation until now. If user:SSS108 were a constructive editor then he could simply have removed the statement about Jens Sethi filing a criminal complaint in Munich that I rea-added while remaining the rest of my edits or at least explain in the talk page why he revert all my edits. Andries 10:47, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

I want to comment on the evidence provided by Jossi on this page

  • 16:50, 13 May 2005 Example of two summaries by Andries of a citation about Sathya Sai Baba in the article Guru, compared against the original source, in which Andries adds allegedly misleading interpretations with the purpose of asserting a viewpoint.

I admit that I made a mistake here, because I mixed up information that I had received privately and personally from the person i.e. Lousewies van der Laan (she is my cousin) who raised the question in the European Parliament and from Chris Patten and the information that is publicly available. I privately received information from Van der Laan and Patten becausse it was me who requested Van der Laan to raise this question in the European Parliament. In addition, I don't know much about the European Parliament and its procedures. In contrast to what Jossi stated, it was not my purpose of asserting a viewpoint.Andries 14:27, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Jossi further writes on this

"Andries made these interpretations without having access to the source, a fact that was discovered only after Andries was challenged to provide a reference."

I edited out of memory and I made a mistake due to special and exceptional circumstances. Jossi is making it much bigger than it really is. I have more than 13,000 edits on the English language Misplaced Pages so I have a right to make some mistakes without getting punished for it. This should be taken into account when assessing the evidence against me. Andries 14:54, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

SSS108 repeatedly removed relevant information supported by a reputable source with these edits The information that SSS108 inappropriately removed without giving a reason and in spite of my protest was as as follows

"In 2006 followers of Shirdi Sai Baba in the Ahmednagar district filed a suit, in the court of Rahata, to restrain followers of Sathya Sai Baba from claiming he is a reincarnation of Shirdi Sai Baba. The case is pending as of January 2006."<ref>Sigh Baba article in the Mumbai Mirror 11 Jan. 2006.</ref>

Andries 15:38, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

User:SSS108 defends this edit on this page by stating that he merely moved contents from the main text of the article to the external link section, but this defense violates the official Misplaced Pages policy What_wikipedia_is_not that states “Misplaced Pages articles are not: Mere collections of external links or Internet directories.”. It is not my job to teach single-purpose editors like user:SSS108 again and again the basics of Misplaced Pages policies. It is user:SSS108’s duty as a Misplaced Pages editor to read the policies and guidelines and to obtain more experience by editing a variety of articles, not just heavily controversial articles.

Andries 18:41, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Second assertion

Evidence presented by SSS108

First assertion

First of all, I would like to point out that Andries constantly divulges personal information about me by listing my real name on Misplaced Pages. I have asked him to desist from doing this (Ref) and (as one can see) he refuses to stop. Unlike Andries, I have not used my real name as my "wiki-name". Therefore, I request the ArbCom to ask Andries to stop divulging my full name on Misplaced Pages. It appears that either Andries (or an Anti-Sai affiliate of his) forwarded my name and misleading information about me that ended up appearing on Misplaced Pages. I discussed this on June 11th 2006 under this section and Andries has yet to deny his questionable involvement in the matters discussed therein.

I would also like to point out that most of the "original research" that Andries complained about, that was added to the Sathya Sai Baba (henceforth referred to as "SSB") article, was not added by me but by Thaumaturgic. Andries, for two years, published and promoted the "original research" of Anti-Sai Activists. The reason I did not object to the "original research" taken from my site was because Andries allowed the "original research" of Anti-Sai Activists taken from their sites. Thankfully, the mediation process (through BostonMA) resulted in the removal of most of the "original research" from the SSB Misplaced Pages articles (01 & 02). However, even after mediation, Andries continued to allow and cite the original research of Anti-Sai Activists.

For example, on the True-believer syndrome Misplaced Pages article (that Andries created), Andries made an edit on April 4th 2006 in which he specifically removed a "statement unsupported by references", yet failed to remove the original research from the Anti-Sai Activists and unreliable sources Tony O'Clery and Paul Holbach. Even more recently, on June 12th 2006, Andries attempted to cite the original research of Alexandra Nagel (an article which was specifically addressed in mediation with BostonMA and shown to be an un-reliable source that also constituted original research: Ref) on the List of groups referred to as cults (Ref). View the partial discussion thread that ensued. Regarding this same issue, Andries also attempted to push the link to saiguru.net (another Anti-SSB Site) which is a mirror site to the hetnet.nl/~exbaba site (which happens to be Andries Anti-SSB website). Saiguru.net duplicates content (verbatim) taken almost exclusively from Andries website. In order to get around my complaints about Andries linking to and promoting his personal Anti-SSB website, he instead links to the saiguru.net site and says that is okay even though the content originated from his site to begin with! Therefore, all of Andries claims to complying with Misplaced Pages policies (past and present) are patently false and misleading.

  • I have compiled a temporary page that provides what I consider to be compelling proof that suggests that Andries is not being entirely honest about his webmaster status on the hetnet.nl/~exbaba site (which is the largest Anti-SSB site on the world wide web). View My Temporary Page
  • On March 16th 2006, BostonMA asked Andries to reconsider his answers regarding Premanand's credibility (which called into question Andries ability to distinguish between partisonship and NPOV: Ref). Needless to say, Andries ignored BostonMA's comments and refused to change his position on Premanand (Ref). BostonMA also took difference with Andries attempts to link his article (True-believer syndrome) to the SSB article (Ref) and expressed the opinion that Misplaced Pages is not a soapbox and it appeared that Andries's edits were to convince people of the merits of his favorite views.
  • And is if this isn't enough to make my case that Andries is acting contrary to good faith, a controversial edit regarding Jens Sethi (going back to April 22nd 2006, which was a point to be mediated by BostonMA before he left on May 6th 2006: Ref), was edited back into the SSB Misplaced Pages article today itself (July 7th 2006), by Andries (Ref), without discussion, agreement or forewarning.

My disagreements with Andries edits are numerous and I foresee that this section will be edited with more proof when I find the time to research the controversial edits more in depth. Thank you. SSS108 04:45, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Second assertion

  • Clarification 1: Regarding Andries logic that since I cite my website link (for reasons of transparency) on my userpage and since my name is listed on my site he can therefore divulge my name on Misplaced Pages, and generate personal attacks against me, I believe he is wrong and others have been banned on Misplaced Pages for doing this. I believe Andries should abide by the policies on Misplaced Pages. SSS108 15:56, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Clarification 2: Regarding Andries claim that:
"Secondly, he reverted me repeatedly when I wanted to remove all original research including "original research of Anti-Sai Activists". This shows that I was willing to remove original research after complaints on the talk page and that user:SS108 blatantly continued to violate the policy Misplaced Pages:No Original Research even after many warnings and discussion."
Andries failed to mention is that he objected to material taken from my personal website (View Thread 1 - View Thread 2), yet refused to remove the links that directly solicited his personal Anti-SSB website (which locked users into a framed page where a full menu of Anti-Sai links were provide; which I believe was observed by BostonMA as this was discussed in mediation). I refused to remove references to my site as long as Andries refused to remove the links that solictied his website. That's the reason. Just recently, however, since the time Arbitration became likely, the webmaster to the hetnet.nl/~exbaba site has been removing the script that reloads their pages back into their main framed page. This is just more proof that whomever is running the hetnet.nl/~exbaba site is attempting to distort the perception of my past arguments and is resorting to tactics that will make it easier for the inclusion of their links into Misplaced Pages. SSS108 15:56, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Clarification 3: SaiGuru.net is a mirror site to Andries Anti-SSB website: View The Proof For Yourself (use side menu to view other sections and how 98% of the articles were taken from Andries hetnet.nl/~exbaba site. SSS108 15:56, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Clarification 4: That Andries continues to deny that he broke Misplaced Pages's no original research policy by citing Alexandra Nagel's paper (at "List of groups referred to as cults") when it was shown that Nagel's paper was not reputable and constituted original research in mediation (Ref) is revealing. One will note that Andries has yet to divulge which reputable sources have published or mentioned the article he is attempting to cite by Nagel. Andries is essentially making the argument that one can cite non-reputable references as long as the sources used in those non-reputable references are reputable! SSS108 15:56, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Clarification 5: Regarding Andries comment about me "repeatedly removing relevant information supported by a reputable source", Andries is apparently misleading the ArbCom with inaccurate information. The media article that Andries referred to is still located on the SSB article (Ref: 3rd Media Article From Bottom). All I did was move this media article to the Media Section as confirmed by the very same link that Andries cited himself against me: Ref: Line 248. SSS108 18:01, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Evidence presented by Jossi

work in progress ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 06:21, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Andries was blocked twice in the last four months for 3RR on related articles

In response to Andries rebuttal about this block, note that the revert war was related to the Guru article.

SSS108 was blocked once for edit warring

View: Thread 1 - Thread 2 about this questionable block. SSS108 18:12, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Andries admits to being a POV pusher on related subjects

  • 15:40, July 24, 2005 "I have to admit that I have been a POV pusher on the latter subject because I am an ex-cult member and I hate to be called a liar with regards to a very difficult experience of my life that I tried to tell in an accurate, factual way to others."

Andries adds his own original research about Sathya Sai Baba to external links section of related article

Andries editorializes citation on related articles

  • 16:50, 13 May 2005 Example of two summaries by Andries of a citation about Sathya Sai Baba in the article Guru, compared against the original source, in which Andries adds allegedly misleading interpretations with the purpose of asserting a viewpoint. Andries made these interpretations without having access to the source, a fact that was discovered only after Andries was challenged to provide a reference. This incident made it difficult for other editors to accept his edits in good faith.

Evidence presented by {your user name}

First assertion

Place argument and diffs which support your assertion, for example, your first assertion might be "So-and-so engages in edit warring". Here you would list specific edits to specific articles which show So-and-so engaging in edit warring

Second assertion

Place argument and diffs which support the second assertion, for example, your second assertion might be "So-and-so makes personal attacks". Here you would list specific edits where So-and-so made personal attacks.

Evidence presented by {your user name}

First assertion

Place argument and diffs which support your assertion, for example, your first assertion might be "So-and-so engages in edit warring". Here you would list specific edits to specific articles which show So-and-so engaging in edit warring

Second assertion

Place argument and diffs which support the second assertion, for example, your second assertion might be "So-and-so makes personal attacks". Here you would list specific edits where So-and-so made personal attacks.