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This is an archive of past discussions about Macedonia (ancient kingdom). Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Request for comment

Should this article be redirected to Ancient Macedonians? Your input is welcome. Thank you. Δρ.Κ.  14:52, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

• My first gut reaction was that a merger would very likely be a good idea, since I've never seen much use for this Wikipedian habit of having separate articles for ethnicities and their countries, where the factual scope of both topics can be considered as near-100% identical. However, in the present case, it turns out that both articles are of very substantial length already, with (apparently, from what I can gather at a quick glance) predominantly non-overlapping content, so a merger might lead to a rather unwieldy article. Before such a merger is done, I'd certainly want to see something like a planned outline first. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:37, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

• Thank you for your input Future. I agree with your assessment that these articles are not identical as has been claimed and I fully agree that as a minimum any merger has to be planned. As a corollary to that, converting this article to a redirect is not a good idea at this stage. Δρ.Κ.  16:48, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

• I believe that these articles shouldn't be merged as they are both quite long articles and they refer to different subjects, a kingdom vs people. A merge will lead to a very long article where bias will be harder to rid, so it is better for it to stay how it is. When you search for the Macedonian Kingdom, you're not looking for the people are you?Luxure (talk) 09:44, 26 August 2014 (UTC)
• No, these are two separate subjects each with their own distinct and lengthy content. Chris Troutman (talk) 01:47, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Request for Comment 2

Should the lead sentence of this article call the ancient Macedonian kingdom a "kingdom", without further specification, or a "Greek kingdom"? --Taivo (talk) 15:23, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

• kingdom: This was the stable, neutral consensus for several years because it is not a WP:POINTy edit directed at the current geopolitical problem between Greece and Macedonia and because it correctly illuminates the fact that there were notable differences between Macedonian culture and society and Greek culture and society. It also better matches the title of the article, which is "ancient kingdom", not "ancient Greek kingdom" or "Greek kingdom". --Taivo (talk) 15:29, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

• Ancient Greek kingdom This was the stable version before Taivo and a sockpuppet started the vandalising editwar, this is easy to see in the page's history. Plus there are dozens of sources behind the Ancient Greek term. Ancient Macedonia was an ancient Greek kingdom and this is the historical truth regardless nationalism from Greek Macedonians and Slav Macedonians. History cant be adjusted to politics. If you think that Ancient Macedonian was instead a slavic or Ilyrian, or Paionian or Persian, you can bring your references. Just dont delete other sources because you disagree. You cant propose that a version without any justification can replace one with dozens of references. DispStevepeterson (talk) 16:23, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

People seem to confuse certain things here. The dispute on Ancient Macedonia, is whether the pre-Attic speaking Macedonians were speaking a Greek dialect or another Indo-European language. That is not something to be treated here, but on the dedicated page for the Ancient Macedonian language. Period! The founders of the kingdom are undoubtedly Greek, regardless if someone believes that there were other ethnic groups (e.g. Brygians, Thracians) incorporated to the Kingdom. That Greek aristocracy would then be responsible for a supposed "Hellenization" of the whole population and the establishment of Attic Greek in that kingdom. Now, the problem here is that pages like this, are getting kinda insane to maintain "neutrality" and "objectivity" which in many cases leads to over-referencing OR outdated views going back many decades. That is making the articles harder to read for the ordinary reader, plus it creates suspiciousness over the neutrality of the article. If you want to prove a point, it is enough to mention a handful of authorities and not dozens of primary sources that the reader needs to interpret. So my suggestions: a) @Taivo > leave the "Greek Kingdom" and ask for strong and quality references, b) @Stevepeterson & others > do not over-reference, it makes it terribly tiresome. Fkitselis (talk) 21:33, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

Fkitselis, the page was stable for months/years as Ancient Greek Kingdom without any references. Few days ago a user added these sources only after the page became (once more) a battlefield between nationalists and sockpuppets. This is because they disputed the validity of the qualifier of (Ancient Greek) for the word kingdom. A discussion opened to resolve the issue and none of those who oppose the qualifier Ancient Greek brought any justification but continued to remove the qualifier in a vandalising/editware manner. After the references were introduced, they changed the strategy and removed the qualifier together with its sources with the argument that it is not necessary/interesting for an introductory sentence to to include a qualifier for the word kingdom. Stevepeterson (talk) 03:51, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

You are wrong, Stevepeterson. The page was stable as "kingdom" for years. It has only been recently changed to the WP:POINTy "Greek kingdom". Your list of references is also indisputable proof that you don't understand the reliable source policy. --Taivo (talk) 04:47, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

Taivo >> the issue has been discussed already back from 2008. It is not a recent addition. Stevepeterson >> The only sources needed are those of few academic authorities. By that I do not mean every single person who made a one sentence statement about it. I mean those who have actually spend some ink writing about it. Fkitselis (talk) 05:24, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

I agree that we dont need so many sources. Initially there was one source after the words Ancient Greek kingdom (Simon Hornblower, "Greek Identity in the Archaic and Classical Periods" in Katerina Zacharia, Hellenisms, Ashgate Publishing, 2008, pp. 55–58.). Vandals removed the Ancient Greek, so the source was left orphan and describing the word kingdom. Then Gtrbolivar introduced the list of sources in his attempt to stop the edit wars but with no result, vandalism continued (and still continues as we discuss the topic here) despite a discussion here and the sources were removed with a simple argument that I dont believe that Ancient Macedonia was Ancient Greek . Stevepeterson (talk) 06:16, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

You are wrong, Fkitselis. The issue was, indeed, discussed in 2008 (I was there), but the consensus was to simply use "kingdom" without "Greek". That was the version that stayed stable for years. --Taivo (talk) 08:01, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

I can see the discussion. Personally, I do not care whether the word Greek is there or not. After reading the article again, I feel there is no need for such a thing, as it is later mentioning the origins of the royal house. However, as a general note we should consider that wiki pages should always reevaluated after several years. Fkitselis (talk) 20:30, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

• Memory Refresher. Since the pro-"Greek" camp keeps claiming a false history of the first sentence, I did the research. There was a discussion back in 2009 and the consensus that was reached was to simply use "kingdom". That consensus edit remained for 3 years until it was changed to "Greek kingdom" with a false edit summary on 9 March 2012 here. It was changed back to "kingdom" the next day here. Then on 25 September 2012, this edit added "Greek" again, but the editor was lying and marked it as "minor" without an edit summary. That was the last time it was changed--without building a new consensus, just by virtue of a lie in terms of calling it a "minor" edit and not including an edit summary. The last consensus on this subject was built in 2008 to use just "kingdom". --Taivo (talk) 08:24, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
• Last Consensus Version The article should remain at the last consensus version until this Request for Comment has been completed and a new consensus built (or not). The last consensus was built in 2009 and does not include the word "Greek". --Taivo (talk) 08:31, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

So, 2 years of the article being in this form is not enough for you to call it stable and you revert to a pre 2012 version with such an aggresive and vandalising manner? I dont see any pro Greek Macedonian attitude here only people trying to resolve an issue and one vandal with sockpuppets pushing nationalistic pro SlavMacedonian agenda which is not accepted even in ghe majority of the Republic of Macedonia residenta.Stevepeterson (talk) 08:46, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

When an actual consensus has been reached and the change is the result of a lie, doesn't that call into question the actual stability of the edit? If you think I have a sockpuppet, then prove it. Perhaps you missed this comment on your bogus sockpuppet investigation. Since you are just trying to win your point by using ad hominems I will cite you for a violation of WP:NPA and WP:AGF, especially since you think that neutrality equates to "nationalistic pro SlavMacedonian agenda". Please show me a single place where I have called Ancient Macedonia a "Slavic kingdom". Your personal attacks will not help your cause in promoting your own POV in this case. --Taivo (talk) 08:50, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

not if the consensus happened (if it really did, i need to see proof for that) over 6 years ago and the page has been stable for the last 2 years. And what is disturbing is your vandalising methods that compromise the quality of the article and make so many editors waste their time. And regarding ] and WP:AGF it is you who accuse us of being pro greecomacedonian, although we are just trying to protect the site from one vandal and a sockpuppet. Your bias towards teh Republic of Macedonia is obvious, you even go beyond RoM nationalism to call the country Macedonia (when discussing an Ancient Kingdom with exactly the same name), when the constitutional name is Republic of Macedonia, just to create a confusion that everything Macedonian refers to RoM and its slavic population, no. You want to remove the Ancient greek qualifier because you want to extend this confusion to the Ancient Kingdom majority of which is within the borders of the southern neighbour of RoM. Stevepeterson (talk) 00:33, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

Were it not so damaging to Misplaced Pages, your insane paranoia would be laughable. Do you actually see modern Macedonians behind every rock or is that just here? Please quote a single, solitary time when I have claimed that the ancient Macedonians were Slavic or that the ancient Macedonian kingdom was Slavic? You can't. You simply operate from the childish POV that anyone who would dare deny that anything ancient the Greeks say is Greek might not be Greek must be a lover of modern Slavic Macedonia. And since there is more than one editor who disagrees with your paranoid nationalism, your attitude is that one must be a sock of the other. From the aggregate of your comments, it is crystal clear that you don't know the meaning of WP:AGF, WP:NPA, WP:RS, WP:CONSENSUS, WP:NPOV, or WP:SOCK. --Taivo (talk) 07:16, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

I do believe that anyone posting and vandalising so aggresivelisy here is pushing modern Macedonian nationalism, from both sides, the Greek Macedonian (2.5 million people) and Slavic Macedonian (1.4 million). I am just trying to revert the page to its stable form that for 2 years created no single issue and make the article more accurate with a qualifier so that creates confusion over new uses of the term Macedonian (eg Greek Macedonia, Albanian Macedonian, Slav Macedonian, geographical area of Macedonia, salad Macedonia, Greek Region of Macedonia, Bulgarian Region of Macedonia) and without touching on the endless nationalistic debate on who has more right on the use and without being biased towards any of the modern ethnic groups, all unrelated to Ancient Greek Macedonians. Your position is a combination of the following two:

1) that modern use of the term Macedonian is equivalent and exclusively means Slavic Macedonians (example above: Do you actually see modern Macedonians behind every rock or is that just here?) and 2) Ancient Greek qualifier to the Kingdom of Macedonia is not nessasry, so we should say Macedonia was an ancient kingdom simply (not ancient Greek, despite all evidence, but something else that we dont know) but with Macedonia meaning a slavic population. This is exactly the confusion nationalists from ROM want to create due to synonimity and proximity to the Ancient Greek kingdom. I have never said that Ancient Greek Kingdom of Macedonia should be related to any modern nation, so YOU stop accusing me with nationalism. Stevepeterson (talk) 07:33, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

You have summarized your paranoia about finding Slavic Macedonians behind every tree quite nicely. You praise the stability of "Greek kingdom" for two years, but utterly fail to praise the longer stability of "kingdom" for three years. Indeed, the only reason that an editor snuck "Greek" in past the watchlists is because he lied about it being a "minor" edit. Your paranoia about modern Macedonian nationalists is utterly misplaced. Adding "Greek" to kingdom accomplishes only two things: 1) it is a WP:POINTy edit directed not at accuracy, but at a modern geopolitical situation (by your own admission); and 2) it obscures the fact that the ancient Macedonian kingdom was not 100% "Greek", but included non-Greek elements as well (and note that "non-Greek" is not synonymous with "Slavic"). Give it a rest. You have made your primary argument over and over and over again your prejudice against modern Macedonians. Misplaced Pages must be as neutral as possible (see WP:NPOV). That is not possible when edits such as yours are made with the express purpose of eliminating another possible point-of-view. The facts of Greekness are expressed in the article in detail, where they should be--as are the facts of non-Greekness (and note that there is not a single word about ancient Macedonia being Slavic in any way). Taking a side in the summary statement based on your modern geopolitical point-of-view is non-encyclopedic. --Taivo (talk) 10:01, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

Firstly, none said that Macedonia was a Greek (modern) but an Ancient Greek kingdom. Ancient Greeks are unrelated to any modern nation. By removing the Ancient Greek you just want to link/misslead a connection with the modern Slav Macedonians whom you also name Macedonians, without any qualifier. I have no prejudgement against any modern Macedonian because I am one myself. You are the one who prejudges modern Macedonians, at least the Non Slav ones, firstly by assuming that every modern Macedonian is a Slav, for your own reasons; I never said you are a Macedonian (Slav/Greek/Albanian/Bulgarian) but perhaps you are a Slav in general thats why you push panslavism nationalism in this article. And your argument that Ancient Maceonia doesnt qualify to be named as Ancient Greek, because it was in the periphery of the Greek World and had influence from the neighbours and despite the fact that greek culture and language prevailed (indisputable fact, there are hudernts of sources and archeological findings on that) is totally invalid. It is equivalent to someone in modern times claiming that regions in peripheries of countries should become autonomous from the rest/homogenous core because they dont belong 100% to the core culture but have other elements from the neighbours. In that sense even modern Greek region of Macedonia i the future should not be called a Greek region because there are also Slav Macedonian, Albanian and Turkish minorities and in general the Greek culture there is highly influenced from the Balkans, unlike Athens or Sparta. Future Historians wont call Brandenburg a German State, because it was not 100% German, it also had otehr elements eg Polish. Stevepeterson (talk) 10:38, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

@StevePeterson >> Can you please specify which sources you would like to add and for what purpose. I suggest you make a collection here and write few words behind the reasoning. After that we can start discussing what is relevant and what is not. Fkitselis (talk) 20:34, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

My proposal is Ancient Greek Kingdom with the second bunch of references only namely the contemporary sources: Zacharia 2008, Simon Hornblower, "Greek Identity in the Archaic and Classical Periods", pp. 55–58; Joint Association of Classical Teachers 1984, pp. 50–51; Errington 1990; Fine 1983, pp. 607–608; Hall 2000, p. 64; Hammond 2001, p. 11; Jones 2001, p. 21; Osborne 2004, p. 127; Hammond 1989, pp. 12–13; Hammond 1993, p. 97; Starr 1991, pp. 260, 367; Toynbee 1981, p. 67; Worthington 2008, pp. 8, 219; Chamoux 2002, p. 8; Cawkwell 1978, p. 22; Perlman 1973, p. 78; Hamilton 1974, Chapter 2: The Macedonian Homeland, p. 23; Bryant 1996, p. 306; O'Brien 1994, p. 25. . To these I would only add Strabo and Herodotus from the first bunch, as sources of the ancient world and evidently not biased by modern politics. Thése are my last words, I have wasted far too much time in this article by Taivo's slavic nationalism and insisting on vandalising this page. Stevepeterson (talk) 00:54, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

Stevepeterson's agenda of personal attacks and failure to assume good faith is well in evidence with that last comment. He has utterly failed at any point to demonstrate that I have been motivated by "slavic nationalism". It is just further evidence of his "find a modern Macedonian behind every tree". --Taivo (talk) 06:30, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

I will again reiterate that the consensus reached in 2009 was changed in a manner that it passed by watchlists by falsely marking it as a minor edit, thus "kingdom" without specification should be considered the "base" consensus. At this point there has been no consensus reached for changing that earlier stable consensus. We're not talking about the tone of the entire article, or the details and evidence presented in the article. We're talking about the summary first sentence. As such, such WP:POINTy wording that, by Stevepeterson's own admission is designed to keep modern Macedonians from thinking that ancient Macedonia might have been Slavic, should be considered to be against the basic Misplaced Pages principle of WP:NPOV. --Taivo (talk) 06:41, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

Modern Macedonia include Greek Macedonian, Republic of Macedonia, Bulgarian Macedonia and Albanian Macedonia. Your failure to understand this and your insisting of limiting the use of term Macedonia to describe only a specific ethnic group that doesn't even represent the majority of Macedonia shows your bias and the reason why you are so sensitive about the topic and went into the war in the first place. Qualifier Ancient Greek Kigdom was there for 2 years and none complained. My point is that we need to avoid confusion over modern uses of the term Macedonia and there are many, not only the Republic of Macedonia. Your initial reasoning behind hiding the Ancient Greek is that this would lead to edit wars due to modern politics (clearly a WP:POINT, look at your own comments above); in fact you are the only person who initiates such edit wars. Your second argument is that Ancient Macedonia wasnt 100% part of the ancient greek civilization and this was rejected by hundreds of sources: Ancient Macedonia was indisputably an Ancient Greek Kingdom (there are so many references) perhaps not 100% no kingdom is 100% purely something unless a genocide happens, even ROM is 70% Macedonian and 30% Albanian but its stil rightfully called a Macedonian state. Once the references were introduced you deleted the sources with the argument that the first sentence should not include unessasary details (such as what civilisation the kigdom belonged to) and neither allows sources in the first sentence, however similar articles on other areas of the ancient greek world follow the same format (eg Sparta was a prominent city-state in ancient Greece) and you didnt show the same excitement to apply these rules in these articles. Once you lost this argument too, you cite a consensus 6 years ago that changed 4 years ago. And you call yourself not a hothead nationalist. If i do personal attack? No I dont do, I have nothing against you but I blame you for the waste of time due to your irresponsible and arrogant behavior. I have nothing against Macedonians, Greek or Slavs, I am upset with you wasting the time of so many people here. And you were the one who called me nationalist, at least I recognize that modern republic of Macedonia citizens are Macedonians, you dont recognize the existence of Greek Macedonians in Greece. Stevepeterson (talk) 07:06, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

This article has zero to do with modern Macedonia, so the majority of your comments throughout this issue are pointless and irrelevant. I won't respond to your personal attacks along those lines any further. And you obviously have a problem with math. The consensus for "kingdom" was reached 5 years ago in 2009. It remained stable for three years until an obviously pro-Greek editor changed it by falsely calling it a "minor edit". That lie prevented it from showing up on the watchlists of people who would have objected to the change (as they had a few months earlier when the same change was made without it being marked as a "minor edit"). Are you seriously trying to defend a false and disingenuous edit made with the explicit purpose of no one seeing it? That was done two years ago, not four. You are simply wanting to add a WP:POINTy edit to pee on the ancient Macedonian fire hydrant with your Greek dog. You clearly have no idea what a WP:POINTy edit is so you should actually read the essay before you try to misuse the term again. The following two versions violate WP:NPOV: 1) "Macedonia was an ancient Greek kingdom" and 2) "Macedonia was an ancient non-Greek kingdom". Those are WP:POINTy edits since their only function is to plant a Greek or non-Greek flag on the topic. The only neutral formulation, that goes in neither direction and plants no partisan flags, is "Macedonia was an ancient kingdom." In 2009, that was the consensus wording that was reached after a long discussion. In 2012, no new consensus was built for a change because the change was a result of a misleading lie. Unless you are able to actually build a new consensus right here, right now, then the previous actual consensus of 2009 is the only relevant one. --Taivo (talk) 23:58, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

No, I dont have time top build a consensus, if anyone wants to prepare please do and i will contribute. I will summarize your contribution above to show you how you contradict yourself: A) you personally attack me: 1) numerous insulting such as Greek nationalist (BTW I am a Macedonian), i have problem with Maths (FYI I have PhD in Applied Mathematics, from the Univ. of London) 3) you say that i clearly have no idea what a WP:POINTy edit is. B) You find pro-Greek propaganda behind every stone here and anyone who believes that Ancient Macedonia was an Ancient Greek Kingdom (you accuse me of finding Macedonians behind any one who disputes how Hellenic Ancient Macedonia was, although (Pan)Hellenism was a concept introduced during the Macedonian domination on the Ancient greek world). Then not only all editors here are pro-Greek nationalists but also all historians and but even the earth that reveals archeological evidence of the anc-greekness of Anc Macedonia, all are forged by modern greek propaganda, you remind me this onion's article: http://www.theonion.com/articles/historians-admit-to-inventing-ancient-greeks,18209/). We wont rewrite european history because modern greeks are indeed nationalists and abuse history for political benefits. Perhaps Alexander himself was a Greek Nationalist, not neutral and according to you and his words are PPOV, and shouldnt be included in this article. To say that Ancient Macedonia was an Ancient Greek Kingdom is not only neutral (it doesnt reflect any modern population of Macedonia, it follows the format of similar articles (All other ancient Greek state articles mention their ancient-greekness.) and doesnt have anything to do with the irrelevant name dispute). But it is historical fact and wikipedia's attitude to history should not be affected by modern politics. Removing Ancient Greek although it appears in all other anc. greek states articles, in order to remain neutral in an irrelevant modern name dispute is a bad idea ánd certainly a WP:POINT. Stevepeterson (talk) 00:34, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

No one is forcing you to be on Misplaced Pages if you don't have the time for it. And it's utterly amazing how much fantasy you can construct about comments that I have never made and how you can twist nothing into fairy tales. Again, you confuse the content of the article with a summary statement that needs to be as all-inclusive as possible without planting a flag on one interpretation over another. Most of your comments are pure invention or misinterpretation. --Taivo (talk) 01:13, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

I have alot of time for wikipedia but unfortunately this month i wasted it on unnecessary edit-wars trying to prove an already proven fact (that Ancient Macedonia was part of the Hellenic world that itself has created) and defending myself from vandals' attacks. Stevepeterson (talk) 02:31, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

Taivo's crusade to remove the word "Greek" (blatantly disregarding the countless top-class historians and reliable sources) is becoming outrageous and inflammatory beyond words. Who entitles you to remove sources and crystal historical evidence for God's sake? Where are the admins? It seems that anybody who wants to impose his pseudo-historic (backed-up with tons of pure vandalism) agenda in wikipedia is free to do it with impunity. Your ridiculous and slanderous attacks against Stevepeterson, who tried to stop your vandalistic pseudo-historic propaganda with solid arguments is typical of the way you understand dialogue and of course history for that matter. It is obvious to everyone that you are here to impose a certain agenda (who knows why?) at all costs. You're trying to make us go away, employing vandalism, lying, slander, propaganda and a behaviour full of unspeakable arrogance like you own the place, like you are the master of wikipedia who does whatever he wants. Rest assured that your aggresive and unacceptable behaviour, your pseudo-historic propaganda, your blatant disregard for the sources and for the most distinguished and reliable historians from antiquity to today, your vandalistic frenzy and your forlorn attempt to claim ownership of the article will not stand. To Stevepeterson: The next time he vandalizes, distorts history and behaves like he owns the place I am ready to bring this matter to the administrators. If you agree, we can submit this issue to the administrators together. I don't know the exact drill, but I am sure we can report his behaviour and his vandalism in one complaint. Gtrbolivar (talk) 15:29, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

You don't seem to understand the way that Misplaced Pages works, Gtrbolivar. You don't understand WP:AGF, WP:NPA, WP:POINTy, WP:NPOV, or WP:CONSENSUS. You have also failed to actually discuss the matter civilly here, simply relying on base insults and accusations. Perhaps you should try building a new consensus. You didn't even participate properly in the Request for Comment. --Taivo (talk) 16:49, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

"Kingdom" or "Ancient Greek Kingdom" I think the difference at the source of this RFC will be lost on most people reading the article. As someone who knows a fair bit about Western History, I think the fact that it was a Greek Kingdom is implied. that being said, the article that Ancient Greek currently links to is informative and useful to readers. I cannot go toe to toe with a real scholar on what comprises Greek/Hellenic realms, but Alexander was from Macedonia and he is most certainly considered a military leader of ancient Greece. I don't think it really matters, but a link to Ancient Greece is very useful and should be prominent in the article. Elmmapleoakpine (talk) 22:57, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

I agree with Elmmapleoakpine and Gtrbolivar. If Ancient Greece article has extensive reference to Ancient Macedonia as an Ancient Greek Kingdom and dedicates a long section on the period of Macedonian domination and its resulting Hellenistic Civilisation, it makes little sense that we remove the link to Ancient Greece in this article just because one single user claims that: "by trying to raise the unquestioning Greek flag over ancient Macedonia in the first sentence of the article, you needlessly prejudice the reader and promote needless conflict from those who might disagree with that assessment. --Taivo (talk) 17:47, 29 August 2014 (UTC)" . But I wouldnt keep on the endless arguments and edit-wars with him. I propose one of two directions: A) Either we all in a civilised manner agree here that we bring back the article to its stable (for 2 years) pre-vandalism format or B) we start a consensus to undo the obsolete 2008 consensus. I would personally prefer the 1st so we dont have to waste more time Stevepeterson (talk) 10:53, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Stevepeterson You added a bit to what I said. I was not responding to whomever your quoting here. I can go either way. I think that you presume an awful lot about the motivations of the other editor. I do not have any history here. I just made a suggestion of what would be useful to readers who are not familiar with the subject. Elmmapleoakpine (talk) 22:24, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

Dear Elmmapleoakpine, thank you for your comment and for allowing me to clarify my position, I wrote that I agree with both you and Gtrbolivar and I curried on with adding my personal view. To be honest, I also believe that there is little difference between with or without the Anc Greek qualifier. My point here is that users should not be allowed to vandalise and try to push their PPOV in wikipedia articles (eg I remove a well referenced fact that Anc Mac was part of the Ancient Greek world, just because I believe that Ancient Macedonians were in the periphery of the Greek world and hence not 100% Greeks and also because there is an unrelated political name-dispute today between two unrelated modern states, plus everyone who disagrees with me is driven by Greek nationalism and deserves to be insulted). This is not what wikipedia is about. Stevepeterson (talk) 03:16, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

You are still under the impression that personal attacks are appropriate, Stevepeterson. Do you want to falsely accuse me of sockpuppetry again as well? I propose that we maintain the last actual consensus from 2009 and the stable form that lasted for three years and was changed only because of a lying Greek nationalist's vandalism in a way that it didn't show up on watchlists. So your attempts to paint the last two years as somehow a better Misplaced Pages solution are just as sneaky and underhanded as the vandal that violated the 2009 consensus. You also act like the (B) solution is your idea. Please note that I was the one who initiated this Request for Comment, not you, and that so far there is no consensus for a change to "Greek kingdom". --Taivo (talk) 01:45, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

What an oxymoron: a user who has initiated a reckless edit-war (i count 6 reversions in September, 4 of which during the last 2 days), who has attacked and insulted any WP contributor who doesn't agree with his opinion that Ancient Macedonia was not part of the Ancient Greek World (because its population was not 100% Ancient Greek), is afraid of losing the credit of initiating a cease-fire/discussion that has not anyway prevent him from continuing the editwar. 175.136.204.66 (talk) 10:05, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

Oxymoron--read it since you don't seem to know what it is. Your other comments simply show an ignorance of the entire discussion and the reasoning therein. --Taivo (talk) 13:44, 8 September 2014 (UTC)

The Macedonians were not, are not and will never be Greek. The anti-neutrality editor is seeing biased POVs everywhere. There are disagreements whether it was or wasn't a Greek Kingdom (it wasn't) The Greeks saw us as barbarians, Greeks didnt have Kings nor did they fight the same way the Macedonian Phalanx did. This user is hallucinating if he thinks the 2012 vandalism edit is the stable version and somehow the 2009 consensus is 'outdated'. Well! Since Stevepeterson was born before 2009, (dubious), he must be outdated as well. He does not see the OUTRAGEOUSNESS of his claims. Misplaced Pages is a place for collaboration, reaching consensus BEFORE changing anything. If he truly believes he is correct (he isn't), why doesn't he collaborate like an adult and reach consensus first?

"I have alot of time for wikipedia but unfortunately this month i wasted it on unnecessary edit-wars trying to prove an already proven fact (that Ancient Macedonia was part of the Hellenic world that itself has created) and defending myself from vandals' attacks." - User:Stevepeterson

HAHAHAHAH! What a HYPOCRITE. It has NOT been proved that Macedonia was a 'Greek' Kingdom and your having to defend yourself of vandals attacks is laughable. Seriously, I really want to know how old you are. No-one has been attacking you and if anything, you have been attacking people, as when you started a 'sock investigation' (attack) against Taivo, not even informing him and without even 1x10 pieces of evidence. Return back to that rock you have been living under, don't waste our time. Macedonia (talk) 06:34, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

now that Taivo invited for support in his attacks and vandalism his fellow supporter of the irredententist United Macedonia concept of the Slav Macedonia "liberating" all ancestral Alexanders Slav Macedonia land from the occupying evil Greek and Bulgarian Macedonians (just have a look at his profile that shows the Republic of Macedonia's map including 40% of the Greek territory and 10% of Bulgaria), now this is the time to say the final goodbye to wikipedia. Stevepeterson (talk) 16:29, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

If you actually think that I invited Macedoniarulez to this discussion, then please prove it. This personal attack is nothing more than another of your incessant "There's a Slav behind every bush" paranoia. You falsely accused me of sockpuppetry solely because I disagreed with you. Now this baseless accusation. What's next in your bag of personal attacks? Prove it or shut up. --Taivo (talk) 16:42, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

I think the real issue here is personal attacks and not assuming good faith have gotten out of hand. Editors have stopped working to find neutral wording that addressed the concerns of both sides of the debate. Is there a way to factually and accurately state the relationship of ancient Macedonia to the wider ancient Greek world in the lead of the article without prejudicing the reader? What if the section in question read, "ancient kingdom that was x,y, z to ancient Greece? I know that is not it exactly, but I trust you get where I am going. Elmmapleoakpine (talk) 21:16, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

what about: an ancient kingdom on the Northern periphery of the Ancient Greek world?

I have no problem at all with either of those wordings. Ancient Macedonia definitely had a relationship to ancient Greece

1. – Alexander the Great: "Youths of the Pellaians and of the Macedonians and of the Hellenic Amphictiony and of the Lakedaimonians and of the Corinthians… and of all the Hellenic peoples, join your fellow-soldiers and entrust yourselves to me, so that we can move against the barbarians and liberate ourselves from the Persian bondage, for as Greeks we should not be slaves to barbarians." Pseudo-Kallisthenes, “Historia Alexandri Magni”, 1.15.1-4
   – Alexander the Great: "Now you fear punishment and beg for your lives, so I will let you free, if not for any other reason so that you can see the difference between a Greek king and a barbarian tyrant, so do not expect to suffer any harm from me. A king does not kill messengers." Historia Alexandri Magni of Pseudo-Kallisthenes, 1.37.9-13
   – Alexander the Great addressing his troops prior to the Battle of Issus: "There are Greek troops, to be sure, in Persian service — but how different is their cause from ours! They will be fighting for pay – and not much of at that; we, on the contrary, shall fight for Greece, and our hearts will be in it." Anabasis Alexandri by Roman historian Arrian, Book II, 7
   – Alexander's letter to Persian king Darius in response to a truce plea: "Your ancestors came to Macedonia and the rest of Hellas (Greece) and did us great harm, though we had done them no prior injury. I have been appointed leader of the Greeks, and wanting to punish the Persians I have come to Asia, which I took from you." Anabasis Alexandri by Arrian; translated as Anabasis of Alexander by P. A. Brunt, for the "Loeb Edition" Book II 14, 4
   – Alexander the Great: "If it were not my purpose to combine barbarian things with things Hellenic (Greek), to traverse and civilize every continent, to search out the uttermost parts of land and sea, to push the bounds of Macedonia to the farthest Ocean, and to disseminate and shower the blessings of the Hellenic justice and peace over every nation, I should not be content to sit quietly in the luxury of idle power, but I should emulate the frugality of Diogenes. But as things are, forgive me Diogenes, that I imitate Herakles, and emulate Perseus, and follow in the footsteps of Dionysos, the divine author and progenitor of my family, and desire that victorious Hellenes should dance again in India and revive the memory of the Bacchic revels among the savage mountain tribes beyond the Kaukasos." On the Fortune of Alexander by Plutarch, 332 a-b
   – Alexander addressing the dead Hellenes (the Athenian and Thebean Greeks) of the Battle of Chaeronea: "Holy shadows of the dead, I’m not to blame for your cruel and bitter fate, but the accursed rivalry which brought sister nations and brother people, to fight one another. I do not feel happy for this victory of mine. On the contrary, I would be glad, brothers, if I had all of you standing here next to me, since we are united by the same language, the same blood and the same visions." Historiae Alexandri Magni by Quintus Curtius Rufus
   – Alexander I of Macedon, ancestor of Alexander the Great, member of the Argead dynasty: "Tell your king (Xerxes), who sent you, how his Greek viceroy of Macedonia has received you hospitably." Herodotus, Histories, 5.20.4, Loeb
   – Alexander I of Macedon, ancestor of Alexander the Great, member of the Argead dynasty, when he was admitted to the Olympic games: "Men of Athens... In truth I would not tell it to you if I did not care so much for all Hellas; I myself am by ancient descent a Greek, and I would not willingly see Hellas change her freedom for slavery. I tell you, then, that Mardonius and his army cannot get omens to his liking from the sacrifices. Otherwise you would have fought long before this. Now, however, it is his purpose to pay no heed to the sacrifices, and to attack at the first glimmer of dawn, for he fears, as I surmise, that your numbers will become still greater. Therefore, I urge you to prepare, and if (as may be) Mardonius should delay and not attack, wait patiently where you are; for he has but a few days' provisions left. If, however, this war ends as you wish, then must you take thought how to save me too from slavery, who have done so desperate a deed as this for the sake of Hellas in my desire to declare to you Mardonius' intent so that the barbarians may not attack you suddenly before you yet expect them. I who speak am Alexander the Macedonian." Herodotus, Histories, 9.45 (ed. A. D. Godley)
   – Ian Worthington, English historian and archaeologist: "Not much need to be said about the Greekness of ancient Macedonia: it is undeniable." Ian Worthington, "Philip II of Macedonia", Yale University Press, 2008
   – Ulrich Wilcken: "When we take into account the political conditions, religion and morals of the Macedonians, our conviction is strengthened that they were a Greek race and akin to the Dorians. Having stayed behind in the extreme north, they were unable to participate in the progressive civilization of the tribes which went further south." Ulrich Wilcken, "Alexander the Great", p. 22)
   – Strabo: "And Macedonia, of course, is a part of Greece." Strabo. VII, Frg. 9 (Loeb, H.L. Jones)
   – Herodotus: "Now that these descendants of Perdiccas (Perdiccas I of Macedon, King of Macedonia from about 700 BCE to about 678 BCE) are Greeks, as they themselves say, I myself chance to know and will prove it in the later part of my history." Herodotus, Book 5, Ch. 22, 1 (Loeb)
   – Josephus: "And when the book of Daniel was showed to Alexander the Great, where Daniel declared that one of the Greeks should destroy the empire of the Persians, he supposed that himself was the person intended; and as he was then glad, he dismissed the multitude for the present." Josephus 11.8.5
   – Arrian: "There a man appeared to them wearing a Greek cloak and dressed otherwise in the Greek fashion, and speaking Greek also. Those Macedonians who first sighted him said that they burst into teers, so strange did it seem after all these miseries to see a Greek, and to hear Greek spoken." Arrian: Anabasis Alexandri: Book VIII (Indica)
   – Titus Livius: "The Aitolians, the Akarnanians, the Macedonians, men of the same speech, are united or disunited by trivial causes that arise from time to time; with aliens, with barbarians, all Greeks wage and will wage eternal war; for they are enemies by the will of nature, which is eternal, and not from reasons that change from day to day." Titus Livius, Liber XXXI, 29, 15
   – David H. Levinson: "It should be noted that there is no connection between the Macedonians of the time of Alexander the Great who were related to other Hellenic tribes and the Macedonians of today, who are of Slavic Origin and related to the Bulgarians." Encyclopedia of World Cultures (1991), by David H. Levinson, page 239.
   – Nicholas Hammond: "Philip was born a Greek of the most aristocratic, indeed of divine, descent... Philip was both a Greek and a Macedonian, even as Demosthenes was a Greek and an Athenian... The Macedonians over whom Philip was to rule were an outlying family member of the Greek-speaking peoples." Nicholas Hummond, Philip of Macedon, Duckworth Publishing, 1998
   – Nicholas Hammond: "All in all, the language of the Macedones was a distinct and particular form of Greek, resistant to outside influnces and conservative in pronunciation. It remained so until the fourth century when it was almost totally submerged by the flood tide of standardized Greek." Nicholas Hummond, A History of Macedonia Vol ii, 550-336 BC
   – Nicholas Hammond: “As members of the Greek race and speakers of the Greek language, the Macedonians shared in the ability to initiate ideas and create political forms." Nicholas Hummond, "The Miracle that was Macedonia", 1992, p. 206
   – M. Opperman, "The Oxford Classical Dictionary 3rd ed. (1996) - Macedonia, Cults", page 905: "Nowadays historians generally agree that the Macedonian ethnos form part of the Greek ethnos; hence they also shared in the common religious and cultural features of the Hellenic world"
   – Robin Lane Fox: 1) "Alexander was still the Greek avenger of Persian sacrilege who told his troops, it was said 'that Persepolis was the most hateful city in the world'. On the road there, he met with the families of Greeks who had deported to Persia by previous kings, and true to his slogan, he honoured them conspicuously, giving them money, five changes of clothing, farm animals, corn, a free passage home, and exemption from taxes and bureaucratic harassments." p. 256,
   2) "To his ancestors (to a Persian's ancestors) Macedonians were only known as 'yona takabara', the 'Greeks who wear shields on their heads', an allusion to their broad-brimmed hats." p. 104,
   3) "Alexander was not the first Greek to be honoured as a god for political favour." p. 131,
   4) "In spirit, Alexander made a gesture to the Lydians' sensitivities, though his Greek crusade owed them nothing as they were not Greeks." p. 128. Robin Lane Fox, Alexander the Great, Penguin Books, UK, 1997
   – Katheryn A. Bard: "The Macedonians were originally one of several Greek tribes living on the northern frontier of the Hellenic world." Katheryn A. Bard, Encyclopaedia of the Archaeology of Ancient Egypt, Taylor & Francis, 1999, p. 460.
   – Benjamin Ide Wheeler: "That the Macedonians were Greek by race there can be no longer any doubt. They were the northernmost fragments of the race left stranded behind the barriers." Benjamin Ide Wheeler, Alexander the Great: The Merging of East and West in Universal History, Elibron Classics, 2011
2. Zacharia 2008, Simon Hornblower, "Greek Identity in the Archaic and Classical Periods", pp. 55–58 harvnb error: no target: CITEREFZacharia2008 (help); Joint Association of Classical Teachers 1984, pp. 50–51 harvnb error: no target: CITEREFJoint_Association_of_Classical_Teachers1984 (help); Errington 1990 harvnb error: no target: CITEREFErrington1990 (help); Fine 1983, pp. 607–608 harvnb error: no target: CITEREFFine1983 (help); Hall 2000, p. 64 harvnb error: no target: CITEREFHall2000 (help); Hammond 2001, p. 11 harvnb error: no target: CITEREFHammond2001 (help); Jones 2001, p. 21 harvnb error: no target: CITEREFJones2001 (help); Osborne 2004, p. 127 harvnb error: no target: CITEREFOsborne2004 (help); Hammond 1989, pp. 12–13 harvnb error: no target: CITEREFHammond1989 (help); Hammond 1993, p. 97 harvnb error: no target: CITEREFHammond1993 (help); Starr 1991, pp. 260, 367 harvnb error: no target: CITEREFStarr1991 (help); Toynbee 1981, p. 67 harvnb error: no target: CITEREFToynbee1981 (help); Worthington 2008, pp. 8, 219 harvnb error: no target: CITEREFWorthington2008 (help); Chamoux 2002, p. 8 harvnb error: no target: CITEREFChamoux2002 (help); Cawkwell 1978, p. 22 harvnb error: no target: CITEREFCawkwell1978 (help); Perlman 1973, p. 78 harvnb error: no target: CITEREFPerlman1973 (help); Hamilton 1974, Chapter 2: The Macedonian Homeland, p. 23 harvnb error: no target: CITEREFHamilton1974 (help); Bryant 1996, p. 306 harvnb error: no target: CITEREFBryant1996 (help); O'Brien 1994, p. 25 harvnb error: no target: CITEREFO'Brien1994 (help).