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 | If you wish to submit evidence, please do so in a new section (or in your own section, if you have already created one). Do not edit anyone else's section. Please keep your evidence concise, and within the prescribed limits. If you wish to exceed the prescribed limits on evidence length, you must obtain the written consent of an arbitrator before doing so; you may ask for this on the Evidence talk page. Evidence that exceeds the prescribed limits without permission, or that contains inappropriate material or diffs, may be refactored, redacted or removed by a clerk or arbitrator without warning. |
Any editor may add evidence to this page, irrespective of whether they are involved in the dispute. You must submit evidence in your own section. Editors who change other users' evidence may be blocked without warning; if you have a concern with or objection to another user's evidence, contact the committee by e-mail or on the talk page. The standard limits for all evidence submissions are: 1000 words and 100 diffs for users who are parties to this case; or about 500 words and 50 diffs for other users. Detailed but succinct submissions are more useful to the committee. This page is not designed for the submission of general reflections on the arbitration process, Misplaced Pages in general, or other irrelevant and broad issues; and if you submit such content to this page, please expect it to be ignored. General discussion of the case may be opened on the talk page. You must focus on the issues that are important to the dispute and submit diffs which illustrate the nature of the dispute or will be useful to the committee in its deliberations.
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Evidence presented by User:Robert McClenon
Historicity of Jesus has been excessively contentious in August and September 2014
It is only sufficient to look at the length of the talk page archives.
See Talk:Historicity of Jesus/Archive 36 at 179kb
See Talk:Historicity of Jesus/Archive 35 at 248kb
See Talk:Historicity of Jesus/Archive 34 at 246kb
Fearofreprisal has been disruptive
FearofReprisal files a frivolous RFM: https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_mediation/Blanking_of_the_Historicity_of_Jesus_page&oldid=628052108
FearofReprisal files a frivolous AIV https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages:Administrator_intervention_against_vandalism&diff=prev&oldid=627919879
Iseeewe has been disruptive
Iseeewe posts a rant and gets blocked https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Historicity_of_Jesus&diff=prev&oldid=620051235
Iseeewe remains combative https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk%3AIseeEwe&diff=620585120&oldid=620584778
Evidence presented by John Carter
Dubious conduct of Kww
I believe that the evidence of Kww’s conduct on the article talk page archives. Beginning on 2 September 2014 in the section now at Talk:Historicity of Jesus/Archive 34#Please review Misplaced Pages policy Kww indicates what seems to me to be a less-than-well founded attempt to impugn others with no basis other than the individuals involved being self-declared Christians or others who would support the existence of Jesus, and also I believe demonstrates a rather remarkable lack of basic competence when dealing with matters of history indicating that sources from Buddhist or other non-related historical sources are missing. First. I guess I should declare that I have checked not only Biblical encyclopedias and Christian encyclopedias, but the most comprehensive and recent encyclopedias on Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, Judaism, religion in general, and biblical studies and found only three which refer to this topic in any significant way, one being the ‘’Anchor Bible Dictionary’’ and the two versions, original and new, of the ‘’Encyclopedia of Unbelief’’.
It should also be noted that Kww goes on for some time indicating that such sources from other faiths should be included. I believe that the lack of even basic competence in the field of history in general that these comments indicate, given their apparent lack of understanding that history is based on historical methodologies, as has been indicated several times in recent archived talk pages and historically, raises serious questions about whether Kww may insert himself in discussions where he is not qualified to take part given a lack of even the most basic understanding of the topic. I also believe that the comment made by Kww here displays what may reasonably be called lack of judgment considering he made here a statement about how “pseudoscience” is not poorly defined, despite the fact that later in that page I indicate that the OED lists 2 definitions of pseudoscience, each of which is based on 17 definitions of science, leading to 34 definitions of the term pseudoscience itself. I believe even the most basic attempt at the research he seems to demand of others in the first link is something he demonstrably refused to do himself in the comment in the second link. John Carter (talk) 00:46, 3 November 2014 (UTC)
Ideological battleground
I believe that recent history of the talk page indicates that for certain editors this topic is ultimately one in which they find that their own dearly held beliefs are being challenged, including in that number both atheists and those who religiously belief in Jesus, and that on that basis this article is more or less an inherent battleground, in much the same way as the Climate change article where so far as I can remember both the proponents and opponents of "global warming" have been described by the other side as presenting pseudoscience in their arguments. There also seem to be to "camps" of academics on this issue, although they are of dissimilar size, which further aggravates the problem. John Carter (talk) 00:51, 3 November 2014 (UTC)
Evidence presented by Wdford
It appears that, with the topic-banning of a single problem editor, the conflict has been resolved. The article is now stable, and has been stable since the banning. The warriors that flocked in to support the banned editor have faded back into the mist from whence they came, the heat has dissipated completely and it has been business as usual ever since. The Historicity of Jesus article is now once again a collection of bloated summaries of other articles, containing IMO more duplication than is necessary, but it is at least stable. Part of the underlying problem could be that there appears to be no guideline on how much detail should be included in a WP:General overview article, or on how concise a section ought to be when it summarizes a main article, but those are technical issues rather than burning concerns. The long-running dispute about whether to use the phrase “most scholars” or “virtually all scholars” or “biblical scholars” is tedious, but it’s hardly problematic. The long-running dispute about which sources are biased and which are reliably objective is also tedious, but it’s hardly problematic either. This article – and related articles – are visited from time to time by POV pushers, but this is readily managed through the usual processes. Provided the problem editor remains topic-banned I don’t see any potential for a future flare-up, and so I am not entirely sure if anything remains to be arbitrated here. Wdford (talk) 10:49, 4 November 2014 (UTC)
Evidence presented by Evensteven
I would echo John Carter's comments about problems with Kww's arguments; in imo there's not much to add.
It would also appear that it is now permissible once again for all substantiated points of view, including Christian, to be covered in the article material, as it should be. Proof of historicity is not a criterion for article inclusion, and sources have always been allowed to be biased themselves, both being fallacious arguments leveled against Christian apologist sources there. As Wdford says, getting the proper balance in article text and neutrality of statement are the tedious but relevant issues, and that appears to be the nature of the editing now going on.
I have little doubt that editor POV will continue to be a problem from time to time, as it is on many articles, but I agree that there is little to arbitrate at the present time. There is no reasonable way to prevent future disruption by other editors, and there are sure to be future disagreements, as there is no scientific proof from the scholarly world, and the article's subject is thus based on interpretation of evidence that not everyone will accept as valid. It's the nature of the article - inherently subjective. To some, that means bias, when they disagree. Evensteven (talk) 18:14, 5 November 2014 (UTC)
Evidence presented by {your user name}
before using the last evidence template, please make a copy for the next person
{Write your assertion here}
Place argument and diffs which support your assertion; for example, your first assertion might be "So-and-so engages in edit warring", which should be the title of this section. Here you would show specific edits to specific articles which show So-and-so engaging in edit warring.
{Write your assertion here}
Place argument and diffs which support the second assertion; for example, your second assertion might be "So-and-so makes personal attacks", which should be the title of this section. Here you would show specific edits where So-and-so made personal attacks.