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• Rory Cellan-Jones (16 October 2014). "Twitter and the poisoning of online debate". BBC News. I am not going into the rights and wrongs of Gamergate here - there is what looks like a factual account of this interminable saga on Misplaced Pages, although of course there have been disputes about its objectivity.
• David Jenkins (20 October 2014). "2014: Video gaming's worst year ever". Metro. The Misplaced Pages entry is as good as any at explaining the basics, and shows how the whole movement is based on nothing but the ravings of a female developer's ex-boyfriend and a level of misogyny that you'd find hard to credit existing in the Middle Ages, let alone the modern day.

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Again, we have the spectacle of (a) an angry, outraged claim that Gamergate is wronged! This must not stand! This comes from Loganmac, who was most recently seen on his own talk page colluding with topic-banned DungeonSiege5whatever. This is followed by Aquillion patiently, exhaustively, definitively, cataloging the many, many sources that compell the categorization. Next, the three remaining un-topic-banned editors and their admin will arrive to say, "but there is doubt! there might not be unanimity! Perhaps we cannot (alas! so sad!) say "conspiracy theory" -- we might say "possible conspiracy theory" or "alleged conspiracy theory as reported in misguided but reliable sources". And we will spend another five thousand words debating the point, wind up again with two or three treks to AN/I and a trip to discretionary sanctions with WikiTrout for all. In the end, as Aquillion usefully captures, New York Magazine describes today at Misplaced Pages precisely: conspiracy theories that seemed to claim, among other things ... that an indie developer named Zoe Quinn had slept her way to positive coverage. Enough. This has got to stop. MarkBernstein (talk) 03:20, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

Mark, I request that you cease this battleground and inflammatory behaviour. The disparity between Aquillion's and your response is telling, Aquillion looked at the sources, while Mark targeted editors who haven't even commented yet! starship.paint ~ regal 03:53, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

Mark please calm down, it seems you are attacking people who have not participated in discussion yet. Retartist (talk) 04:38, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

We aren't pals, Retartist: it's Dr. Bernstein to you, thank you, or Mark Bernstein if you're a member of the Society of Friends. Thanks. See following comment which applies equally to you.MarkBernstein (talk) 04:47, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

"I did not hit her! It’s not true! It’s bullshit! I did not! Oh, hi Mark." What? ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡ °) Retartist (talk) 05:01, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict)The pattern has been unrelenting for days on end. It's really interesting that starship shows up a few minutes after another user, one who makes the same arguments in the same tone, is topic-banned, and complains just after asserting in the section above that he made one revert (I recall two) and that it's perfectly reasonable to change "False sexual allegations" to "Sexual allegations" because they probably did have sex! For crying out loud: do you folks have no decency? This pattern of edits has been unrelenting for days -- one BLP violation followed by an insinuation followed by a slow, slow retreat, fighting every inch of the way. Yes, I'm angry. (No reason to think starship's a sock: we all know they've been coordinating offsite and banned DS apparently defied the topic ban when issued to coordinate their offsite rendezvous). MarkBernstein (talk) 04:47, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

Dr. @MarkBernstein:, please stop with these insinuations about me. You recall me making two reverts... go and check! You claim that I argued that it's perfectly reasonable to change "False sexual allegations" to "Sexual allegations" - well I did not do that, I was only protesting the labeling of "highly disruptive" to well-meaning editors - I judged that from reading the talk page discussion which seemed reasonable. And just because they've been coordinating offsite, so I'm one of them? A meatpuppet? Nope, I am not. I am not even a gamer. I've made good contributions to Misplaced Pages... the paranoia leaves me extremely insulted. starship.paint ~ regal 08:03, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

You seem to be quite angry at this subject, I don't know why. How is me commenting on an user talk "colluding", you know these are serious claims right? That guy was topic-banned for NOTFORUM which is to say least, minor and banning for 90 days is fairly questionable, and I didn't know he was topic-banned when talking to him. In any case, those sources don't label the movement itself as a conpiracy theory, they just state SOME of their claims are, catogorizing the article as a conpiracy theoriy makes the whole controversy sound like a conspiracy theory when there are well documented concerns on the article itself like GameJournosPro and the sites in question acknowledging this, hence multiple policy changes and disclosures. In any case my concern is when was it discussed, when did an editor get approval to add this, it seems like a sneaky attempt at making this more one sided. Loganmac (talk) 05:39, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

Hey guys, just a suggestion, if you're getting angry just take some time out. Have a break. Go for a walk. Come back when you're a bit more settled. We all get frustrated from time to time but life is too short to get angry editing an article. Jgm74 (talk) 07:41, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

Because you are wrong. We don't agree with people. Basically all RSes say Hitler was evil, but we do not. HalfHat 20:11, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

back to the "but Hitler!" ? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 21:14, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

Back to dismissing valid argument because of the frequency they're used instead of addressing the points? HalfHat 12:08, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

"but Hitler" is not a valid argument. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 14:17, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

There is no reason that arguments that make reference to Hitler are necessarily invalid. HalfHat 14:29, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

Actually, there is. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 16:20, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

In most cases Godwin's law applies in the sense that the discussion would be circling the drain, but the application here is to compare how we (WP) have covered other topics where there is a clear public opinion that swings one way, and note the tone and neutrality that those articles take - no article on a controversial or hated figure or group comes out speaking of the public opinion's of a person/group in WP's voice, but instead clearly assigning where the public opinion comes from, or holding off on criticizing the group/person until later in the article, sourcing all that. Take for example Westboro Baptist Church, which the first two sentences immediately speak to the negative impression it has but using language to clearly establisht that that is how the public sees it and not as a fact (eg we don't say "The church is a hate group" but instead "The church is widely described as a hate group", keeping WP impartial to the matter). The same logic and approach must apply here. --MASEM (t) 16:30, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

You clearly have no understanding of Godwin's Law. Firstly it says someone will make a Nazi comparison (e.g. "That's what Hitler thought"), not that all arguments that refer to Hitler (and certainly not his article) are invalid. And so my argument has not been refuted. HalfHat 16:46, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

I'm not sure why you're telling me I'm trying to push any position, as I'm not the one trying to make a value judgement on any issue here. Everything you've linked appears to agree with me, you don't seem to understand what I'm saying (since you think I want to go against the sources, which I do not), and your tone here is not helpful or collaborative in nature. Thargor Orlando (talk) 20:33, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

I would support your suggestions. Quinn was then subjected to large amount of gender-based harassment ... is not perfect though, "gender-based harassment" is a little ambiguous, but improvement not perfection. How about "harassment targeting her gender"? I don't notice any issues with These attacks often include anti-feminist and misogynistic rhetoric and have heightened discussion of sexism and misogyny in the gaming community.

Alright, lets wait for a bit more feedback as I suppose this will be contentions. I'm still a little tepid about "gender-based harassment", I agree it seems ambiguous and I don't want to white-wash or downplay anything. — Strongjam (talk) 17:25, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

Yeah it's tough to get the balance between not downplaying, and not making them overly loaded. HalfHat 18:07, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

I believe that gender based harassment would be appropriate. The article should be focused, not based on strong non-neutral wording. Tutelary (talk) 19:13, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

please provide sources that call this "gender based harassment" that are on an equivalent reliability and number as those that use "misogynistic harassment" - otherwise this is going no where. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 19:32, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm pretty luke-warm on the 'gender-based harassment' phrasing (I know I suggested it..) We'd probably be violating WP:SYNTH by using it, and I think we're best leaving it as-is unless someone can come up with better phrasing. If NPOV is a concern then we can always assign the view to the sources instead. I would be interested in feedback for the second suggestion, or maybe that's best left to another section. — Strongjam (talk) 19:58, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

We're not limited to using the exact phrasing from the sources. HalfHat 20:39, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

While we are not "limited" to the language of the sources, when the sources are OVERWHELMINGLY utilizing particular terminology and similarly overwhelmingly NOT using a particular other terminology, there needs to be some great rationale for us to use the alternative, and some bogus hand wave at "neutrality" is not that rationale - NPOV does not in any way promote "when all of the sources view something as X, we should present it as Y". -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 21:07, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

That's a total strawman. The problem with that term is that it is loaded and implies opinion. HalfHat 21:27, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

Sources? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 21:57, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

I suggest that we stay with the original wording, which is a correct summary of the overwhelming opinion of reliable sources, as expressed in the body of the article. --TS 01:46, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

The problem is that while "severe" harassment can certainly be supported without quotes (we have plenty of reliable documented facts about this), "misogynistic" can't be - that's how its been characterized widely, certainly, but it's also an observation; stating it factually is heading into "weasel word" territory where we would normally need a source to be clear about that, but we really don't want to flood the lead with sources again. The current wording Quinn was then subjected to severe misogynistic harassment, including false accusations that the relationship had led to positive coverage of Quinn's game. A number of gaming industry members supportive of Quinn were also subjected to harassment, threats of violence, and the malicious broadcasting of personally identifiable information about them (doxxing); some of them fled their homes. The targets were mostly women, and included Quinn, feminist media critic Anita Sarkeesian, and indie game developer Brianna Wu. can be restated without losing anything but staying in a better impartial WP voice for the lead (where we want to avoid anything close to that) with Quinn was then was falsely accused of using her relationship to receive positive coverage of her game. Simultaneously, she and a number of gaming industry members that supported here against these claims were the subject of a severe harassment campaign by online users under the Gamergate banner, including threats of violence and the malicious broadcasting of personally identifiable information about them (doxxing), and forced some to flee their homes. The targets of this harassment were mostly female, including Quinn, feminist media critic Anita Sarkeesian, and indie game developer Brianna Wu, leading the industry and international media to broadly condemn the harassment attacks as sexist and misogynistic. Note that this clearly states where what we would consider "weasel words" originate from which can clearly be ID'd in the body with sources. All the same info and key words are there, but just where there can be slippage into opinion, it's clear where it came from. --MASEM (t) 02:03, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

Gamergate is rooted in misogyny, as borne out by reliable sources. We can't move away from that. Tarc (talk) 02:22, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

That is the press's wide opinion, but only opinion. There is no factual evidence of what started GG. --MASEM (t) 02:24, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

Verifiability, not truth. The press says it is rooted in misogyny, we report what they say. Tarc (talk) 03:04, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

"Gamergate is misogynistic" and "Gamergate is claimed to by misogynistic" are both verified statements, but one is impartial while the other speaks something that is a clear opinion in WP's voice. --MASEM (t) 03:46, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

Once again, our articles reflect the mainstream, predominant viewpoint of reliable sources and relegate fringe viewpoints to lesser prominence, if any. It is indisputable that the mainstream, predominant viewpoint about Gamergate is that it's rooted in misogyny. Our article must reflect that truth. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 03:53, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

We reflect balance and weight, but not tone and emotion as we are an encyclopedia, not a newspaper. --MASEM (t) 03:56, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

It is a fact, verifiable in reliable sources, not a "tone" or "emotion," that Gamergate was rooted in misogyny. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 04:19, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

Alleging that Gamergate is rooted in misogyny is using a contentious label and requires attribution to the source(s). Muscat Hoe (talk) 04:57, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

No, it's not contentious — it's the effectively-unanimous conclusion of reliable sources. Views to the contrary are, at this point, fringe. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 05:01, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

Views to the contrary were never part of my argument so fringe is not in play here. This is about how we ascribe the misogynist label. If RS weren't nearly unanimous we would avoid usage altogether due to contentious labeling (and it is contentious considering "bigot" is listed as a prime example - I doubt anyone would argue that "misogyny" doesn't fall under the umbrella of bigotry). However since sources are widespread we can use it but it necessitates in-text attribution per the guideline. Muscat Hoe (talk) 07:25, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

Are you really sure that "The New York Times, The Guardian, The Irish Times, Newsweek, Time, The New Yorker, The Washington Post, The LA Times, Gawker, Salon,Le Monde, On The Media, Australian Broadcast Company, BBC, CNN, NPR, The Hindu, Forbes, SBS, Boston Globe, Fast Company, Huffington Post, Ars Technica, ESPN, KQED, Mother Jones, Fortune, Vox, Inside Higher Ed, The Oregonian, The Journal Times, The Independent, The Telegraph, The International Business Times and every other major media identify gamergate as misogynistic. CHS says its just boys being boys. " is better? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 13:04, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

I can't help but say that I don't think identify is a good choice of word. HalfHat 16:57, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

"insinuate"? "suggest"? "propose"? "liken"? "hint"? "theorize"? or is there some other watered-down term you would propose? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 17:10, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

Or we could follow policy and say something like stated. HalfHat 17:14, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

No need for a laundry list. The point is it's better to write "The media has described Gamergate as misognyistic" opposed to "Gamergate is misogynistic". In the latter, Misplaced Pages would be taking the side of a contentious, albeit popular opinion, while the former we would be describing it and remain more impartial. Muscat Hoe (talk) 17:41, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

Without any actual sourcing indicating gamergate is not misogynistic, WP:ASSERT we follow the sources and do not willy wolly around the overwhelming evidence and interpretation. WP:FRINGE -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 17:46, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

Is there any RSs that say Hitler is not evil? But that doesn't mean Misplaced Pages should share the opinion he is. HalfHat 18:15, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, that's a bogus argument. We might be able to say, factually, "the pattern of harassment is misogynistic" in WP's voice, because of the clear evidence it targetted women, and in a hostile manner, but there is no evidence beyond the claims made by the press that GG is misogynistic - no one has connected which persons did the harassing and if these people were truly misogynistic. It's an opinion, a very possible truth, but one we can't report as fact. --MASEM (t) 18:18, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

"We took Gamergate into the lab where it registered 137 on the Lépine Misogyny Scale". -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 18:36, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

That argument works against you. It agrees with it being opinion and that it should not be said in Misplaced Pages's voice.HalfHat 18:40, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

It doesn't matter if the people were. The actions were, and those actions were associated with Gamergate. The RS's have noted this and so can wikipedia. Hustlecat 18:30, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

Additionally: "the actions were misogynistic" is in RSs, so it is verifiable. No one can verify whether particular people are "truly misogynistic" in this case. Hustlecat 18:33, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

No, that's not true. The harassment was done by people under the GG hashtag/banner. At the same time, we have a number of people that are using the GG hashtag/banner to try to talk about ethics. There is no evidence that all or any the harassers are the same people talking about ethics, given the sourceable fact that there are groups that are not connected to the ethics discussions using GG to harassment for the purposes of just stirring the pot. We can say, factually, the actions under the GG banner are misogynistic harassment, but it is not acceptable as a neutral entity to make the leap of logical that the GG movement, or all GG members, are misogynistic; we can definitely put in the bulk of sourcing that has the popular opinion of that nature (itself which leads to the whole "but ethics!" complaints), but in WP's voice we cannot take the opinionated stance that GG the movement or the people involved are misogynistic; we will absolutely reflect that opinion as it is weighted heavily by the sources, but we must keep it out of WP's voice.

Yes, the actions are verifyable to a point we could probably safely call them "misogynistic" in WP's, but as you just said, there is no way to verify which people are, and thus we absolutely cannot make that jump per WP:V. --MASEM (t) 18:39, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

When all you got as a "movement" is a hashtag, you get all that is done under your name. And the only thing that resulted in any coverage was the misogynistic actions. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 18:42, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

It is not appropriate to trivialize how GG is described as a movement by some high quality RS, like Time, the Age, and the Washington Post (whereas some other sources do question if it is a movement, but still acknowledge that it might be a movement, and we can add their complaints to that effect). It is clearly defined as a movement throughout RSes, even though we will include all the criticism that its lack of organization, goals, and its tactics and its apparent ties to harassment to beg if it really is a movement. --MASEM (t) 22:45, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

we have been through this. for every instance where the source uses it, vaguely, with hesitation and qualification because there is not a better word, there are several sources that specifically call it out as not anything like an actual movement. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 00:31, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

Which means we should call it a movement, and then include the strong criticism against that as appropriate, just like Westboro BC is called a church or Scientology is called a religion. To refuse to call it a movement is twisting the sources against an impartial view of the matter. --MASEM (t) 01:34, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

Hitler is evil/Did evil things is easy to find RSs for, doesn't mean Misplaced Pages should say those thngs. HalfHat 18:43, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

What is your obsession with Hitler? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 18:52, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

It's just the useful article to use as an example. (BTW I messed up the formatting and can't remember what I was originally responding to so I moved it all the way back) HalfHat 20:49, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

I dont really see how. A of that has been the of vs a of where the . -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 21:02, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

Exactly because of the current , we should not be reporting the media's opinions as factual. Yes, we still should report the media's opinions because they are reliable sources, as long as we qualify them as opinions. starship.paint ~ regal 00:05, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

We should add gamergate.me in the article as it is a aggregate website on GamerGate. - abhilashkrishn  17:25, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

Not a chance, no. It's no different from 8chan, just a forum for interested parties to comment in. Until/unless reliable sources identify a particular website as "Gamergate Headquarters", we're not going to provide incoming linkage to these people. Tarc (talk) 17:37, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

Oppose There is no reason under WP:ELYES or WP:ELMAYBE to include it, and plenty of reasons under WP:ELNO to exclude it (particularly the open wiki that they host.) — Strongjam (talk) 17:48, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

Just having an open wiki is not an issue under ELNO as long as the rest of the content is managed/edited. But there's other reasons too under ELNO... --MASEM (t) 22:58, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

Until it is clearly identified as the website, and even then, the fact that it might fail ELNO due to possible BLP violations (but we'd have to check at that time). --MASEM (t) 22:58, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

Apparently FTC is preparing an update to its guidelines and it is being associated to GamerGate. Is this information relevant to the article, if it gets verified by a trusted outlet or journalist? Eldritcher (talk) 00:36, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

Yep: I've seen the thread at 8chan dedicated to (a) gaming Arbcom to dominate this page and, secondarily, to (b) threatening me. Examining whether police are needed immediately. At least two frequent contributors to this page are openly conspiring there. Arbcom, admins, and others have already been notified, but I think it's only fair to warn editors of this page that they may be next. MarkBernstein (talk) 04:04, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

@MarkBernstein: Please don't throw out two frequent contributors to this page are openly conspiring there - without presenting evidence. And after you've presented solid evidence, why don't you go ahead and name them. starship.paint ~ regal 04:09, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

Oh, for crying out loud. https://8chan.co/gg/res/589702.html They use their Misplaced Pages names -- or abbreviation of them. I'm done here, though the police or the FBI might be my next stop. MarkBernstein (talk) 04:16, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

I agree. I've poked around 8chan myself, and see no thread, so unless I'm looking in the wrong location (which is entirely possible); until such evidence is validated and proven, it's best to keep this kind of thing under wraps.Kitsunedawn (talk) 04:11, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

• (edit conflict) Update to my previous post: Seems like MarkBernstein did provide a link and names at this page. However, is there 100% proof that those at 8chan claiming to be editors are the real deal? starship.paint ~ regal 04:15, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

Oh, for Christ's Sake,. starship. Will my corpse be enough to satisfy you? My wife’s? At long fucking last, have you no shred of decency? MarkBernstein (talk) 04:17, 26 November 2014 (UTC)