Misplaced Pages

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Jimbo welcomes your comments and updates. He holds the founder's seat on the Wikimedia Foundation's Board of Trustees. The three trustees elected as community representatives until July 2015 are Sj, Phoebe, and Raystorm. The Wikimedia Foundation Senior Community Advocate is Maggie Dennis.

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A suggestion for attracting and keeping female editors

Hey Jimbo, have you seen the Misplaced Pages article on cleavage? The one that the disambiguation page Cleavage decribes as "partial exposure of the separation between a woman's breasts"? No, not Decolletage, that's a different article about the same thing. The one I'm writing about here is Cleavage (breasts). People have been arguing lately about the number of images on that article. Right now there are 19 images to illustrate this very simple concept, but that number changes daily.

How do you think female readers will react when they see the sections called "pathology" and "treatment"? Let's ignore the fact that part of it is a word for word copy from the sources. The article has gone from talking about the social aspects of cleavage (and let's ignore the fact that this is already covered in decolletage) to talking about "cleavage wrinkles" as a condition that needs treatment. It is misplaced, and worse, medicalizes a common and completely normal effect of aging on women. And I won't even mention the absolutely awful Intermammary cleft, which is a totally unecessary content fork (with special added nonsense). Or the ridiculous Cleavage enhancement article which seems to be a how-to guide for transvestite fetishists.

If you want to attract and keep female editors, start cleaning up these awful messes that result from letting pervy creeps turn anatomical articles into their personal image galleries. Get rid of the plastic surgery linkfarms. Take hard line with editors who want to push their own odd views of what women should do with their breasts. In other words, make all of these kind of articles seem like they belong in an encyclopedia instead of a Tumblr site. Perhaps if women see themselves reflected by Misplaced Pages they might start editing as well as reading. If they see Misplaced Pages articles like Cleavage (breasts) is now, they will wisely stay far far away. Some people are made of plastic (talk) 23:54, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

I'm still waiting for somebody to tell me that camel toe is just an April Fool's joke gone terribly wrong. Carrite (talk) 00:09, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

I'd be happy to delete or stubbify such articles, but it probably wouldn't end well if anyone started to do so without general consensus about them. I'd certainly support having some debate about their appropriateness or what is appropriate content for them. Metamagician3000 (talk) 06:37, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Metamagcian3000, the problem here is that editors are looking for "general consensus" instead of showing editorial oversight. Right now, there's a discussion about a table in the article Cleavage (breasts) featuring images of other types of partial breast exposure including "bottom cleavage". Sorry to pick on that article again, but it serves to make my point. I'm sure you can find editors to argue endlessly that this table of pictures should remain in the article, which is part of the problem. What new female editor wants to subject herself to that? There was a recent discussion about the inclusion of an autotuned audio file in Bhutanese passport that some people considered racist. I'm sure someone will suggest that "general consensus" worked in this instance, but really it was the imposition of indefinite article protection. If Misplaced Pages wants women to participate as editors, then Misplaced Pages needs to rein in the editors who insist on acting like little boys. Some people are made of plastic (talk) 14:32, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

I'm sure you can find editors to argue endlessly that this table of pictures should remain in the article, which is part of the problem. People shouldn't be able to argue policy or appropriateness of images if someone removes them. Got'cha. They should just be entirely removed, no images at all--after all, Misplaced Pages is censored I'm sure. I'm sure someone will suggest that "general consensus" worked in this instance, but really it was the imposition of indefinite article protection. You saw a content dispute on Misplaced Pages, you lost in terms of consensus and all of a sudden, instead of being considered the 'consensus' of editors, it's 'indefinite article protection'. How many articles or content disputes have gone in your favor that you reverse this standard on, I wonder? Also notice that you're linking to a talk page discussion rather than a full blown edit war. That's what talk pages are for--getting consensus on things. The fact that you don't want that to happen is telling. What do you think should happen when an editor reverts another editor's contributions? Just keep reverting? It can't work. Also, I really much ponder your original account, and whether you are the IP posting the same ranty-type vague speals below. Oh and to add, tell me your solution to this problem. Because if you can find something more efficient than talk pages, I'd love to hear it and I'm sure they would too. Tutelary (talk) 14:50, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Thank you, Tutelary, for providing an example of the kind of testosterone-fueled attack that would greet any female editor wading into that mess of an article. If you wre a woman, how do you think you would feel when faced with such attacks? Some people are made of plastic (talk) 21:13, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

The kicker is that I am a woman. Tutelary (talk) 23:01, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

I don't think the original state of the articles has much to be said for it, but the suggestions above seem to have the wrong focus. The reason why the article might have struck someone as offensive or voyeuristic is simply that it was badly written. For example, a table of "top cleavage, side cleavage, and bottom cleavage" is not merely pretty, but actually encyclopedic. Adding a fourth category of "downblouse", determined not by how the woman dresses but on how she is photographed, not so much. Deleting the table, though, was not the right answer. Nor should mention of "downblouse" photography be entirely omitted, since it is a social factor that is affecting current female fashion, in that women end up thinking about what they're going to end up being presented as on social media. Wnt (talk) 15:18, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

• I'd ordinarily agree with you, Tutelary, but this article is a complete mess, much of it WP:OR and when I last looked at it, it contained an extensive table of different types of bras which was totally misplaced. There is no reason why more than one image is necessary to illustrate what cleavage is. For comparison purposes, do we have 19 photos on Scrotum? No. Liz 19:33, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

Well, we probably would if men paraded down the fashion runways in pants designed to show off certain parts of them. :) Wnt (talk) 20:39, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

Wnt, you clearly have not kept up with the latest developments in fashion. --Plastic-Al1ty (talk) 15:02, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

LOL, clearly I don't know enough about fashion! If you find some free-licensed photos we can certainly get to work on improving our articles. :) Wnt (talk) 19:07, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

Gee, do you know how hard it is to blag your way into the photographer's pit at a major fashion designer's show? There's something unwholesome and crypto-fascist about professional photographers. They don't seem to like sharing their space with well-meaning wiki volunteers. Surely you agree? So... you and I will have to improvise by re-enacting those shlongtastic fashion shoots. Do you think that Jimmy himself could help? He's something of a male model, after all? How cool would it be to get him to hang out with his (Alexander) Wang out? Do you think we could get a grant for a camera? My current point-and-shoot model is kinda meh. Even better, could you maybe talk to Jimmy and convince him that shooting a series of selfies would be in the best interest of free knowledge? (I love knowledge. Especially when it’s free. Squee!)

Alternatively, I heard that there are some talented artists on the Commons project. Do you know Dee Coetzee? A friend of mine who knows more about wiki told me that xe's something of a legend and xe's got luscious MLP hair (Do you like MLP? It's the best, right? Rainbow Dash FTW!). Anyhow, thank you for your kind welcome and for your offer of working with me. I'm thrilled to be here. Together we can make this happen! Plastic-Al1ty (talk) 05:00, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

First step to 'attracting and keeping female editors' is not repelling them. That one is a pretty obvious strategy that could be worked on straight away, with zero need for initiatives, projects and funding, if the community will was there. Given that the will doesn't seem to be there then the question should be: 'How do we deal with those elements of the community who repel women?' That's where the conversation seems to stop or go or in ever unchanging circles. AnonNep (talk) 20:57, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

Good point, is the community will there? A recent open-source perspective in a O'Reilley talk about women in tech has helpful info for those who do not work in the tech industry for understanding some of the emerging terminology and tools. Also, a recent reflection about speaking up for women in tech. As the poster above points out, attracting and retaining women would happen naturally, without any speeches, jargon, funding or initiatives, if community members overall were actually interested in being hospitable towards women. One can only hope that eventually the conversation won't just "stop or go or in ever unchanging circles" the way it does now. --Djembayz (talk) 22:12, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

It is not a good point at all. In fact, some might argue that it is a completely ridiculous one. Why should female contributors some way get special treatment? Any problems that exist do so for all contributors and, yes, it is probably true that many newbies are repelled but I have yet to see any statistically viable evidence that the repulsion of potential/short-term women contributors comes from within. In almost all cases, we have no idea of the gender of these people and thus the repulsion is gender inspecific. This politicising needs to stop: it appears to have begun with Sue Gardner but it has run it course, as indeed has she. Sue did a huge amount of damage to Misplaced Pages in her attempts to impose her own viewpoint. She meant well but she screwed up big time, which has become particularly evident in this gender politics palaver and in the mess that was already present in Indic articles but which was made much worse by her Utopianism. That she appears to have been friendly with Ironholds didn't help her but she was well doo-lally even before that, assuming that the WMF charter (or whatever it is called) was not to promote social engineering. - Sitush (talk) 00:18, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

So you disagree with every survey and study in the life of Misplaced Pages that there is a gender imbalance? For you, the gender imbalance simply does not exist? Before. Now. Ever? (NB. Whether the gender imbalance exists, and the possible reasons why, are separate to if it exists at all.) AnonNep (talk) 00:29, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

No, but that is a nice attempt at deflection. - Sitush (talk) 00:34, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Not deflection, I'm trying to work out what your problem is. If it isn't that there are statistically far fewer female editors at Misplaced Pages compared to men, that anyone is asking the question or that anyone is trying to answer it? Succinctly, without deflection, where is your specific grievance? AnonNep (talk) 00:48, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

For starters, the question asked did not concern imbalance but rather how to recruit and retain female contributors, even though after the recent high-profile bollocks most people choose not to identify their gender. Gender is irrelevant. That this has been twisted into a discussion that concerns an alleged massively disproportionate gender balance that somehow can be fixed by social engineering is a different issue. As so often happens, the thread has been hijacked and, as also is common, it was initiated by an obvious attention-seeking sock account, albeit we'll likely never know of whom they were a sock (CU block, I believe). Smoke and mirrors are yet again at the fore. Let's just get on with fixing the crap, which exists in at least four million extant articles and in many more potential articles. That is the seriously shaming issue, not chromosomes.

As I said below, BoboMeowCat is an example of someone who seems generally to be able to find a middle way through this recent campaigning; Montanabw is another example of an avowed feminist who can see the wood for the trees. Others, whom it would be best I do not name, are outright politicisers and should have no place here. Gardner is/was a social activist and that is pretty distant from the primary purpose of WMF, unless I am completely misunderstanding that purpose. If people here spent as much time agonising why it is that the gender gap at Facebook etc is alleged to be swung in the opposite direction, and why that might impact on the end result of Misplaced Pages, then I might be more persuaded that the real concern is the imparting of knowledge rather than US-centric self-feeding "feminist studies" academic cohort. - Sitush (talk) 01:58, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

I've no issue with the 'gender shouldn't matter' position. If that's what some editors believe then that's their right. What I find perplexing is why it seems to be such an issue for some that others hold a different view, express that view and want to organise around it. If groups want to work on attracting/retaining female editors, like the Inspire Campaign, or focus on these issues, why the (often quite strident) opposition? Why not just leave them to it? AnonNep (talk) 22:38, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

I do not see it so much of an issue of wanting "special treatment", but rather, it seems to me that female editors are disproportionately hounded and disproportionately the target of personal attacks, although these problems seem unfortunately rampant on WP, and are certainly not limited to female editors. Also WT:GGTF seems to be, for lack of a better word, trolled much more than other wikiprojects. I wish the community would do more to address these issues. --BoboMeowCat (talk) 00:38, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

(multi ec) BoboMewoCAt, I have often thought you to be the voice of reason in so far as spats at GGTF are concerned. We do not always agree but I do appreciate your sense, which is often calming. I see loads of hounding going on all over this place and those incidences are not necessarily even remotely confined to women. It is a wider issue, so don't make it a gendered issue which (semantic points aside) turns it into something that is basically binary. "Them against us" will likely never achieve a decent heat/light ratio. As for GGTF, well, it is at heart a small group whose talk page is frequented by perhaps slightly more than a dozen seemingly fairly, erm, keen feminists whose attempts to recruit other women contributors (even those who claim to be feminist) appears to have failed big time. The gap exists, although I doubt its extent, but the regulars there are making matters worse, creating entrenchments where few or none previously existed. In a vague sort of way, GoodDay has a point in the subsection below: who gives a damn about the gender of a good-faith contributor? I certainly do not and I have collaborated very well with people whose gender I do not know and with people who have claimed to be female. - Sitush (talk) 01:06, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Thanks Sitush. I think my main issue here is I'm trying to understand the rationale of others who seem to follow around female editors (or GGTF members). Specifically editors who may be seen by some as less than reasonable at times. I ’m certainly not referring specifically to only Sitush when I inquire about this, this is a general question. I can understand concerns about potential POV edits in article space, but I do not understand the sort of talk page chatter, ongoing talk page comments regarding certain editors, and the apparent following around of certain editors. I completely agree that female editors are not the only targets of this sort of thing, but as far as I can see, women editors seem to be disproportionately affected, which seems to make it reasonable to discuss the issue in relation to gender.--BoboMeowCat (talk) 17:50, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

The obtuseness of portions of this thread leaves me uncharacteristically without words. There are several people here who should clearly never be part of discussing any gender-related issues ever again. Newyorkbrad (talk) 00:42, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Gender schmender

IMHO Jimbo, the project would be better off disregarding the female/male labels & view all editors as gender-neutral. GoodDay (talk) 15:49, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

Maybe we could invent a new gender referring specifically to a wiki editor and corresponding pronouns. Nyth63 18:03, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

We could combine the words wiki and the nueter pronoun it and make the word wikit or even better, a wit. Nyth63 22:05, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

My point is, it's best to carrying on as though we're all gender-neutral. GoodDay (talk) 00:37, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

I completely agree - Misplaced Pages needs to be a welcoming place for all people regardless of race, gender, country, religion, sexual orientation, income, age, etc. There is no way that Misplaced Pages is going to look like a perfectly stratified sample of the world because it just isn't of equal interest to all people. A disproportionately high number of Wikipedians are programmers, computer science majors, etc, and a disproportionately high number of programmers, computer science majors, etc, are men. But regardless of what the gender makeup is, all editors need to be treated with respect and welcomed. --B (talk) 01:03, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

An Atmosphere of Distrust, Spite, Malice, Incompetence and Ideological Censorship Damaging the Reputation of Misplaced Pages

The toxic atmosphere new editors and unregistered editors must navigate when making good faith edits has been very damaging to the reputation of the project. It has also been very difficult for even experienced editors who in good faith try to improve or add to certain articles that a regular editor demonstrates ownership, often for ideological reasons. They often tendentiously edit the article and immediately revert any edit they deem contrary to their cause. If the new or unregistered editor attempts to reinstate their edit they jump all over the new editor with threatening language about being blocked and often use uncivil behavior to bait the new editor so they can run off to ANI to make misleading claims. When they get to ANI the new and unregistered users face a high level of mistrust (no AGF there) and an awaiting lynch mob who just can't wait to pile on with abusive comments. The unfamiliar editor will face accusations by the article owner that are likely to be presented deceptively.

Juvenile Concepts Regarding Perceived Freedom of Expression Rights (Not a repository of porn or sexually provocative images)

There are other issues that keep many from participating in the project. It is especially troubling when it concerns sexually provocative or degrading images unnecessarily kept on user pages despite pretty clear user page guidelines. The usual juvenile sounding crowd shows up decrying Misplaced Pages is not censored which is possibly an ideal of sorts but far from a realistic statement. There would be no Misplaced Pages if there was not some standards which in effect become a form of censorship. This same crowd has also been known to hound editors who strive to improve the encyclopedias reputation by asking for enforcement of existing guidelines. Many of those editors have been especially insulting to female editors which is very detrimental to encouraging more women to participate in the project. Many editors have strived to make the encyclopedia more user friendly and safer for children. I would not encourage the use of Misplaced Pages in K-12 schools at this time due to the foul language, unnecessary depictions of violence against women, sexually provocative images and general low regard civility among experienced editors and many admins. There is nothing gained for an encyclopedia to show actual images of women in bondage as it reflects violence against women. A simple drawing would be much more appropriate. There is a desire by some to have a free for all as they regard editing here as right. That is faulty thinking as it a privilege to edit here that can be rescinded at any time. If the pictures are still kept, I would offer a rating system that warns a viewer when an article contains graphics that are sexually provocative, depicting violence, nudity, etc.

Juvenile Concepts Regarding Freedom to Say Anything "Rights" on Misplaced Pages (NOT A Forum)

There are many editors who enjoy demonstrating that "have a right to say whatever they want." They often use extremely offensive language for shock value and to get under a targeted editors skin. That reckless behavior out in public could result in a ticket for disorderly conduct and possibly a 72 hour psychological hold. It is amazing how tolerated it is in ANI and other community discussion. The juvenile behavior is lacking in any decorum and does little for maintaining some sense of order. It also makes for a toxic atmosphere that contributes to even more outlandish behavior. There is a group of self-identified juvenile acting males who seem to run together in their attacks on other editors. To be fair there have been many insults and biting comments from the feminist side as well but the juvenile behavior of some male editors is much more prevalent. Both sides have been going at it using derogatory remarks. The unnecessary use of derogatory language has produced a toxic culture war between the camps which is a reflection of modern western culture. The level of bullying and harassment that has been tolerated is hard to fathom for people who work in academics or other professional careers. It clearly allows the toxic atmosphere that has become so prevalent to continue and even grow. There needs to be drastic changes to change this atmosphere which brings out the worst in people.

Enforcement of Civility Severely Lacking and Removal of Incompetent Administrators

The elimination of the war culture is not possible but the enforcement of civility is through better training of admins and elimination of those admins who have not shown an ability to deal effectively with people. There are incompetent admins who create issues by not using sound judgment when enforcing the guidelines and thus misapply them. There are also admins who have taken a political position and cannot separate their admin duties from their own ideology. They are especially harmful to genuine open discourse and they add to the existing warring culture that is over taking Misplaced Pages. There are also admins who appear to have some personal issues or chemical dependencies who often are abusive to other editors. It would benefit the project to make it easier for WMF to issue a suspension pending review and recall of admins who have not effectively executed the obligations they assumed when they accepted the position.

Those Pesky Edit Count Stackers and (Trolling Rollbackers- Trollbackers)

There are also many people with a great deal of knowledge who want to participate in the project but do not have the time to deal with the revert trolls who stack up edit counts by going around reverting with little knowledge of the material. They look at the editor and make sure it is not someone who could stand up to them and without exercising a great deal of thought they revert. The usual victims of the trollbackers are new editors and anyone who dares edit with an IP. The unregistered contributor is voraciously targeted as sock or someone editing logged out with no evidence but a paranoid culture against anyone who does not choose to join the club. They are usually given little in the way of assume good faith and to be damned to hades if they know anything about the project. The paranoid schizophrenic attitude towards new accounts and unregistered editors borders on a cult like atmosphere.

Ideologues Pushing their Propaganda through Tendentious Editing and Task Forces

Then there are the many ideologues who own an article and see Misplaced Pages as a means to push their propaganda to further their viewpoint of how they believe things should be. They often remove well documented additions that contradict their viewpoint and add their own viewpoint often laced with sources from blogs and politically oriented websites that clearly lack reliability. They often coordinate attacks by establishing a task force of like minded ideologues where they interact regularly and gain important allies in their quest to turn Misplaced Pages into a source that reflects their viewpoint in the best light.

Closing

The toxic editing atmosphere has been covered much in the past at Jimbo's page and some attempts have been made to improve the atmosphere but it still remains very dysfunctional. It is time harsher measures were put in place to deal with incompetent admins who are ineffective in executing the duties they agreed to when applying and accepting the position. The poisonous editing environment at Misplaced Pages has increasingly become the subject of articles in the media. The reputation of Misplaced Pages is being severely damaged by the lack of disciplined administrators. It has also caused many good administrators to leave the project due to the constant infighting and lack of civility especially at ANI. It is time some drastic measures be taken to improve the reputation of Misplaced Pages and encourage greater participation.

Commentary

I am sure there will be some offended as their behavior has been highlighted and is being greatly discouraged by the article. Please leave your comments below. Be sure to practice civility and address the argument and refrain from personal attacks because that demonstrates your argument lacks merit. Mr. Wales your thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks, Very Respectfully 208.54.38.224 (talk) 03:54, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Please discuss ways Misplaced Pages can be improved. Leave the blame game and snark at ANI, it is my intention to find constructive ways to improve the project and ideas on how that can be accomplished. 208.54.38.224 (talk) 13:27, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Comments

Also see below: "#Solutions to problems". -Wikid77 (talk) 23:40, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

Please sign into your account. Tutelary (talk) 04:11, 2arize 8 February 2015 (UTC)

That's a great idea. Any reasonably intelligent high school junior can cherry pick the negatives and summarize the criticisms without any obligation to provide diffs or stand on an established record of trying to solve problems while building the encyclopedia. Maximum transparency. Then, we will talk. Cullen Let's discuss it 04:48, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Hello Tutelary and thank you for your interest in improving Misplaced Pages. Also, thank you for taking the time to write all that you deserve a reply.

I agree people shouldn't use their user pages to store tons of major serious hardcore porn. That seems wrong. But it's hard to say for sure without an example because it would depend on the exact context and details of the particular case because one person's pornography is another person's art and lots of people have pictures on their USER pages and we don't want to go around policing everyones pictures that would be a drag. It's possible you're just getting all worked up about something that is really no big deal, I can't tell without looking at the context. Certainly, however, we don't want people using their Misplaced Pages pages as a place to store porn.

Similarly it's hard to understand what exactly you're talking in terms of mainspace and talk page edits without examples and details.

I'm sorry you had such a negative experience on Misplaced Pages and I promise to try to help you if I can but I'm just me. But I can't tell what you're talking about because we need specifics. Chrisrus (talk) 05:01, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

@Chrisrus: Tutelary didn't make the original post. --NeilN 05:05, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

I am starting to think that a lot of these long winded anonymous posts are from the same person. If you want to hide your identity then expect to have little influence here, full stop. Chillum 05:02, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Given the talk about "porn" on user pages it's hard not to believe that this isn't the same IP that just went off on ANI last week about the same subject and got blocked for editing while logged out. Capeo (talk) 00:03, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

• Thanks for illustrating my point and providing specific examples. 208.54.38.224 (talk) 05:08, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Your post demonstrates an abundance of history here but where is that history? Everyone else here has their contributions visible to other users. Chillum 05:09, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

I agree for the most part with the anon. If he or she wishes to remain anonymous, I think we can deal with the points that s/he lays out. The obvious one that jumps out at me is that admins don't seem to feel the need to enforce the rules anymore - just pick and choose which rules to enforce and who to enforce them against. Of course, editing as an IP and having an account technically makes him/her a sock, so .... Smallbones_(smalltalk) 05:16, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

The only thing that's obvious is side A will cry that admins are not enforcing the rules against side B and side B will cry that admins are not enforcing the rules against side A. --NeilN 05:22, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

I have never once had administrators rule in my favor, even when I'm following all the rules, and other users are harassing me relentlessly, breaking all kinds of policies. For example:

Note that @Jimbo Wales: actually personally warned one of these users for personal attacks a month ago, threatening a block. Well, Dave Dial is still harassing away, with no action having been taken against him. I'm beginning to think the administrators here are all corrupt. TBSchemer (talk) 11:55, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

• PER WP:SOCK/Editing While Logged Out:

There is no policy against editing while logged out. This happens for many reasons, including not noticing that the login session had expired, changing computers, going to a Misplaced Pages page directly from a link, and forgetting passwords. Editors who are not logged in must not actively try to deceive other editors, such as by directly saying that they do not have an account or by using the session for the inappropriate uses of alternate accounts listed earlier in this policy. To protect their privacy, editors who are editing while logged out are never required to disclose their usernames on-wiki. Please refrain from casting aspersions and demands unrelated to the argument. Thanks for the few comments that actually addressed the article. 208.54.38.224 (talk) 05:35, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Without specifics it is difficult to respond to your concerns. Perhaps if you provided diffs that showed this mistreatment it would help a lot. As it stands you are an anonymous person making vague complaints. Chillum 05:42, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Please reread title and it is clear it is about an atmosphere not a specific complaint as those are addressed at ANI and this is not ANI. Your repeated requests are being ignored so there is no point in requesting them. Please stay on topic and if you have some constructive comments related to the atmosphere here please do so. Thanks. 208.54.38.224 (talk) 06:21, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

The complaints partly echo the issues described in the Technology Review article most of you have probably seen, partly pursue themes we've heard endlessly from the Gamergate and related conflicts, and generally touch on issues well known to regulars. And the saying is "comment on the edits not the editor". So I don't think the calls for diffs and identification are impressive. The problems are deep and complicated and meta: might be a better place to discuss them. I'll abstain from adding my own theories here, except general advice for newbies: if you 1) stay away from contentious topics at first (regulars get reverted in them too); 2) concentrate on adding new info to articles rather than getting into conflicts about removing stuff; and 3) avoid editorializing and include solid citations for everything you add, you probably won't get reverted. Unfortunately it takes some experience to know how to do these things. I don't think this is an improvement over the "old" Misplaced Pages. 50.0.205.75 (talk) 06:36, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

"Distrust, Spite, Malice" - Is this a good example? BTW, the original poster should look at WP:SCRUTINY. --NeilN 13:48, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

• While I have no doubt that the scenario you portray in your opening section has happened numerous times, I seriously disbelieve that it is as ubiquitous or universal experience as you are implying. My own personal experience as a noob was actually quite the opposite. Nyth63 14:01, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

• Unfortunately, we still do allow editing by unregistered IP accounts, as Wichita208... points out. It would be nice — and a real boon to the editing climate here — if we could do something about that as part of any substantial reform project. Carrite ((talk)) 17:56, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

..........that said, this looks like more of the same in terms of carping about the community standard for civility enforcement and complaint about blind reversion of IP editors — albeit without a single, solitary diff to illustrate the case. All of which is presented behind the cloak of an alternate account... Carrite (talk) 18:10, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Not too sure about the gender wars stuff, but pretty much everything else this user has pointed out I can corroborate with firsthand experience over the years. The constant assumptions of bad faith on the part of admins, the extreme heavy handedness towards new users, the article ownership and users who seem to spend the majority of their time doing nothing but reverting, and involved admins who don't know how to recuse themselves from their duties when they involve subjects they're personally vested in--these are all attributes that are driving away potential contributors. As for sexually explicit imagery and the idea of Misplaced Pages for Kids, I don't agree with the censorship approach, but I do think a small warning about non-worksafe imagery might be helpful for both children and adults. More importantly though, random talk pages often have people swearing like sailors with no repercussions for acting incivil.

I think perhaps the biggest issue when it comes to admin misconduct is just how difficult it is to get any single admin desysopped. There just aren't powerful enough consequences for abuse.174.45.178.216 talk) 20:37, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

• I shuttered with recognition at each of 208.54.38.224 (talk)'s points. They have happened to me or I have seen them happen to others, and not always just to women. I love working in concert with others, brainstorming and forging something of value. There's a great sense of accomplishment when a good piece of work is done. However, I abhor confrontation and ad hominem attacks. The pillars and policies are always ignored by the nasty, leaving the non-aggressive with nowhere to go. Maybe my intestinal fortitude level is too low to try to participate in such a rough and tumble arena as Misplaced Pages. Thank you for your time, Wordreader (talk) 00:11, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

• Thank you for the few that came and added constructively and I do thank those who helped illustrate the point I am making by posting personal attacks and extreme distrust of IP's. It is unfortunate they failed to address the argument and how to actually improve Misplaced Pages. One editor suggested to ban IP's but without much reason other than they can hide behind a cloak. Some are upset when they cannot easily target someone with unwarranted attacks. That type of character assassination is what makes Misplaced Pages such an unwelcome place for many. It is that distrustful, assume no faith attitude that has poisoned the editing environment. The lack of decorum, rampant distrust and character assassination continue to erode the community standards. There are great guidelines covering behavior here at Misplaced Pages but they remain only platitudes because of the toxic vile flowing from so many regular editors who would have long ago sent packing in any professional environment.

In regards to Wordreader it is not about intestinal fortitude but about reasonable expectations. It is reasonable to expect the environment here would reflect a more professional and ordered editing atmosphere. It may be you have more sense and better things in life to do than to engage in unproductive go no where arguments. Some regular editors enjoy ripping other editors which is a sign of personal insecurity. Some enjoy cyber attacking others to boost their imaginary self importance. I am often reminded of the country song about the guy who is a real hero on the internet in his own mind. They have become very skilled in the art of cyber insults from spending many hours daily engaging in it and a new contributor is likely to be turned off from further editing. The question I ask is how do they help the community foster a conducive and welcoming environment for those who have come to add their expertise but whose own busy lives do not allow the time to address petty editors looking for another cyber smack down. It as if the inmates are running the asylum. 208.54.38.202 (talk) 11:44, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

• Dear IP user, while I see truth in some of your points, I think it is important to realize that change on Wikipedias usually happens incrementally. Proposals are brought to the Village Pump, RfC are started, articles are continually undergoing revision. Because of its history, organization and culture, Misplaced Pages is not a place where drastic, website-wide, changes normally occur. You are proposing changing a culture which has grown and evolved over 14 years and that won't happen over the course of a few discussions. In fact, I don't even know how a group could accomplish your goal of changing a culture without shutting down completely and restarting from scratch which isn't going to happen.
• For me, the most important factor is, Is Misplaced Pages culture getting "better" or getting "worse"? Most of my judgment comes from reading over old arbitration committee cases but it definitely seems to me that, compared to 10 years ago and considering its exponential growth, Misplaced Pages has a better, more equitable culture than it did. Policies have been created that addressed long-standing issues and that can serve to alleviate problems like conflicts of interest and maintaining neutral POV. Misplaced Pages is no doubt more bureaucratic than in its earliest days but rules and guidelines also help prevent abuses like you describe, even when they are not applied 100% of the time, 100% equally.
• No culture is ideal or perfect and you clearly offer some suggestions where there is room for improvement. I think you should create a proposal that you think could bring about the changes you would like to see and post it at the Village Pump where you might find support and assistance. Liz 18:41, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

As another IP editor, I wholeheartedly endorse the message here. I have no account here, never had and at this rate never will, and 208.54.38.224 does a good job of explaining many of the reasons why. It's ridiculous the extent to which IP editors are denigrated on Misplaced Pages, in spite of WP:HUMAN. We get treated with suspicion when we know too much, and can't get anyone to listen at all if we don't. Go to the wrong forum to air your grievances, and you get called disruptive; correct the error and you're forum-shopping; get it right the first time and it's "please sign in to your account" which may very well not exist. And when you put in effort to detail a case of how you've been repeatedly personally attacked by an editor, you can rest assured that within half an hour an administrator will be along to summarily dismiss your complaint, argue that somehow you're the harasser, and make further personal attacks, snark at you further if you complain about it, and allege "battlefield attitude" on the basis of being upset about personal attacks and a failure to assume good faith. Absolutely unbelievable. 76.64.13.4 (talk) 07:14, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

Re that last comment, I've had too many experiences of that kind to bother listing all of them, where assume good faith is chucked out the window, been slammed for NPA for simply criticizing someone's edits and stated motives, while being subjected to ANIs based on false and/or distorted claims, and also accused of "battlefield behaviour" when trying to combat ongoing POV on what is clearly an ideological agenda; it's so common in Misplaced Pages now it makes it not worth the bother to consider taking things to an AfD or RM or other procedure even when in need of doing; I'm so often the target to those who won't even read what I have to say but proceed to make false/conflated claims about me (often here on this page, also) that my patience is wearing thin....yet still am trying to fix the damage to various topics and titles and content caused by those who abuse guidelines from what they claim they say (when often they actually don't). Policy is abused too with "Verifiability" claimed to mean more than it does, and claimed to be more important than NPOV, which is is not. I completely sympathize with the energy the original poster here to lay out his case, and note the usual comments about it being too long to read; if you can't think, then don't read; and you shouldn't be writing an encyclopedia, much less trying to control it....Skookum1 (talk) 08:01, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

Solutions to problems

Also see above: "#Comments". -Wikid77 (talk) 23:40, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

As noted above, a massive rework of WP, as a "Misplaced Pages 2" might seem to be the fastest solution to the numerous problems of wp:ANI-dogpiles and dysfunctional admins not enforcing the rules fairly, but the danger would be likewise troublesome people warping the new rules with similar "creative interpretation" of policies. Recall when people complained about cyberbullying in WP, the replies included the self-righteous "sympathetic" remarks that no one has the right to tell bullies what they can or cannot do and hurt their sensitive feelings. Hence, the best solutions would include a diverse set of actions, including the typical wp:SOFIXIT, where more people need to become admins and take control of the situations where the current leadership seems off-balance. -Wikid77 (talk) 23:40, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

Do you mean Citizendium? 50.0.205.75 (talk) 00:30, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Well, I suppose the Citizendium could be considered a form of "Misplaced Pages 2" (WP2), but I was thinking about a twin WMF project which allowed anonymous editors, with IP addresses, but with new rules such as trust-levels for long-term users, trusted IP users (such as restricted laboratory computers), judgment by randomized juries of users, or sanctions as demerits tacked to improper actions by any users, new or admin. On the WP2, a user blocked in WP might continue to edit, with a more-fair access to pages, based on a broader (or random-jury) judgment about the user's prior actions. Users could choose to leave WP access, in favor of WP2 access to pages, if they liked abiding by the new WP2 rules better. The implementation could be done by separate usernames for WP2 versus WP, at first, where the user agreed to follow the rules which each username granted. -Wikid77 (talk) 00:20, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

• The solution to unregistered IP editors being treated like garbage is to eliminate unregistered IP editing. QED. Happy to help. Carrite (talk) 15:49, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

If you want to increase editor retention...

If you want to increase editor retention, I think a productive step toward doing that would be to encourage admins to apply policies equally to new users and long term users. Currently, there seems to be hesitation for administrators to enforce polices or block established users when they violate our polices. I suspect the reasons are related to longterm comradery (perhaps they’ve even shared a beer at some point) or else fear of retaliation from well connected users. --BoboMeowCat (talk) 16:34, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

It could be a simple cost/benefit calculation, BoboMeowCat...if I block Editor X for Infringement Z, would the benefit to the project outweigh the cost? If Editor X has been active for years and contributed a lot to Misplaced Pages, is preventing them from editing (because blocking is not a punishment, right?) preventing disruption or preventing constructive work on Misplaced Pages? With an unknown, new editor, it's unclear what their future holds on WP...if you look at the stats, the majority of new editors make 10 edits or less or edit very irregularly. If they are being disruptive, it's clearly of more benefit to the project to stop their disruption rather than bet on the chance that they will straighten out, change their ways and become a productive editor. But blocks usually escalate in length so most new editors who are not obvious vandals or spammers are given second chances.

I'm not saying this is how admins make these decisions or if this is how they should make these decisions...it's just one way that admins, confronted with regular complaints of disruption and incivility might approach these decisions. I think the most important factor is that admins are not a homogeneous bunch and you will find a variety of approaches to the admin tasks at hand. This might seem to some like inconsistency but I think it is actually a benefit to the project as those with different attitudes balance each other out and appeals to blocks are typically evaluated by an uninvolved admin.Liz 18:09, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

Liz, I agree that blocks should not be punitive, but they should serve to deter recurrent violation of our rules and polices. Recurrent violations of our rules and polices (by editors who are apparently exempted from them) disrupts the encyclopedia. Personally, I think if a long term contributor will only continue editing, if the rules are not uniformly applied to them, then the project is better off without them, even if they are good writers. There are likely plenty of good writers out there, but I suspect many of them are put off by the current battleground environment. --BoboMeowCat (talk) 21:10, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

As I've argued in the past on another IP - if anything, established editors should be held to a higher standard - because they are assumed to know better. The idea that certain people are "irreplaceable" and need to be retained is not only laughable, it's contradictory to the very notion of an "encyclopedia that anyone can edit". It's fine to say "competence is required", but if there's genuinely this core of editors (the way there sometimes appears to be) who believe "competence" (as defined by them) is really so rare, then Misplaced Pages is only paying lip service to its core defining attribute.

For what it's worth, since it has recently been fashionable to bemoan the gender imbalance among established editors - I am 110% sure that the gender balance among IP contributors is much closer to 50-50. Perhaps established editors should consider the possibility that the problem keeping women from registering isn't some systemic bias in article content or in explicitly stated policy, or even a systemic bias in how policy is applied, but a systemic bias in their conduct. Why would any reasonable woman voluntarily sign up for this mess, especially when one of the first pieces of advice they'll receive is to hide their identity to avoid harassment? Why should they feel welcome when the best attempts by supposedly "feminist" editors to welcome them are clearly patronizing (e.g. suggesting that their poor sensibilities are too fragile to deal with an encyclopedia that hosts an article on "Fucking Machines" and deems it to be of high quality)? 76.64.13.4 (talk) 07:30, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

As for the idea that "blocks shouldn't be punitive" - absolutely farcical, at least if there is any intent to imply that everyone's on board with that idea. I have recently been shown new editors get indeffed for simple 3RR violations. Not only is the application of policy on Misplaced Pages hilariously inconsistent, there are multiple pieces of policy that explicitly advocate for inconsistent application (WP:IAR, WP:OTHERSTUFF, WP:POINT...). 76.64.13.4 (talk) 07:34, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

The 'pedia would be better off if all editors would see each other as gender neutral, IMHO. GoodDay (talk) 14:04, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

Would the use of "he"/"she" to refer to fellow editors be forbidden? Martinevans123 (talk) 14:11, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

Getting into the habit of avoiding those terms would be helpful. GoodDay (talk) 14:16, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

Hmm. Not as if they're ever used in real life, are they. Jimbo needs to lose that hipster beard too. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:27, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

User:GoodDay, we speak English, perhaps you would like to explain how we go about not using gender specific nouns? Plus, if everyone simply understood that as a Germanic language that English words that refer to more than one gender or to non-gender specific groups/individual are by default using the male version. That's simply history and linguistics. I'm sorry it offends some people as being insulting to women, but it isn't intended that way nor is it actually offensive unless you take it that way.

It can be done. One simply does it. GoodDay (talk) 16:38, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

User:Liz are you saying with your "cost benefit analysis" that you seriously think it is O.K. for someone to be rude, condescending, biting, and a male chauvinist, and anti-semite (those editors know who I am talking about), and yet if they go around correcting grammar or fighting vandals, it's all good! for them to drive off other established or new editors. Ones that may in time become even better, but because we don't know we cant give them a chance? The problem is consistency. We don't (in the USA) decide "X person contributes a lot to society so we should give them a pass because if they are in jail/prison and their reputation is hurt, they will not be donating money to libraries and charities, but Y should get a worse punishment because they are 18 and we don't know yet how they will contribute if at all and we shouldn't take that chance". That's the real world equivalent of what you are saying is how some admins may be making decisions. It is wrong in the real world, it is wrong here. Now, I have heard of countries (Denmark?) that have a graduated form of fines for things like traffic tickets, the wealthy pay more than the poor for the same infraction. That I'd love to see in a Misplaced Pages version- Admins get more punishment because they have more resources to begin with, they can "afford" to pay more. And plus, as some one above mentioned- they should know better. Being an admin should be about showing the world our best face, if you want the "power" that comes with being an admin, then you can be courteous. I can't be courteous so I've never asked to be an admin. Other's should have that same consideration.Camelbinky (talk) 16:22, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

You're badly misinformed about how the justice system operates in the US. A convicted defendant's apparent value to society is often, if not always, taken into account when imposing sentences. This practice is not always a force for good—for example, it leads to substantial disparities in sentencing based on conscious or subconscious racial and societal prejudices, and leads to occasional one-off outrages like the case of the university professor who was initially thought to be too valuable to society to be jailed for sexual assault... but this practice is real, and a fundamental part of the US justice system (and, to my knowledge, part of many other Western justice systems). So your argument isn't off to a great start, even notwithstanding your egregious misrepresentation of Liz's point. MastCell  18:18, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

User:MastCell you're badly misinformed between the difference of what happens in the justice system and what is legally and constitutionally allowed. Your examples are not only against the very letter of state laws but also unconstitutional on an equal protection clause case. I'm sorry you don't know the difference between judges who make egregious errors and what the US laws and constitution require. You are making wrong assumptions of what the sentencing phase of a trail consists of and what the purpose of its usefulness; it is about assessing the guilty's likelihood of reform and best way to serve society by punishing the offender correctly in the most efficient manner, it is not about assessing their role int he community and whether punishing them would hurt the community.Camelbinky (talk) 15:36, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

Camelbinky I guess you missed the part where I state

• I'm not saying this is how admins make these decisions or if this is how they should make these decisions...it's just one way that admins, confronted with regular complaints of disruption and incivility might approach these decisions.

I was offering a rationale that might go through an admin's mind (not all admins but an admin) when they are considering whether to institute a block, the length of a block or some other action. I don't think it is okay for any editor to flout policies regarding conduct and civility and expect special treatment. I was making an observation of why editors might be treated differently, not suggesting what should be done in the specific situations you describe. Liz 18:43, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

I think some of the responses regarding value and cost/benefit might be misinterpreting what I’m suggesting. I’m not suggesting longterm contributors should be indeffed or banned when they break a policy such as WP:NPA or WP:3RR, rather just blocked for a day or two. I think the benefit of doing so outweighs the costs by discouraging repeat violations, which are disruptive.--BoboMeowCat (talk) 14:11, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

given that even short blocks of certain individuals lead to mega shitstorms on the various drama boards, I do not put much countenance in your cost/benefit disruption analysis at least in the short and medium term. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 18:21, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

English language: spelling reform

The English Spelling Society hopes to bring spelling reform to the English language.

• Conference aims to 'replace English spelling system'—The Telegraph (January 19, 2015)

—Wavelength (talk) 04:06, 3 March 2015 (UTC) and 04:13, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

Idiots. They failed with "thru" and "frend" in the past century, and they'll fail again. Tradition is our absolute knowledge. RGloucester — ☎ 04:31, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

Maybe "thru" got a tiny bit of traction, but let's face it, "frend" is nothing more than an ugly typo. Cullen Let's discuss it 04:59, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

Spelling changes over time. I had a teacher who went berserk if "onto" was spelled as one word, but many modern dictionaries will allow this. Meanwhile, spellings like "connexion" are considered old-fashioned.--♦IanMacM♦ 06:30, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

Changes over time through natural evolution are fine. Top-down mechanical changes are not, especially when personally ordered by obscene political movements. Nothing is ever "old-fashioned", however. If something was good enough for my predecessors, it must be good enough for me. We're all the same, after all. RGloucester — ☎ 06:42, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

If you spoke as your predecessors do, going back into the mists of time, few of your contemporaries would have any idea what you are trying to say or why you are trying to say it...oh wait, perhaps that explains much :) DeCausa (talk) 07:58, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

OK, ya'll.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 11:37, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

It's y'all. --DHeyward (talk) 11:47, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

Totes, dude, deffo. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:44, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

Read your own link. It says ya'll is less common but still used as is yall. Nyth63 19:25, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

The spelling is fine, we are just pronouncing the words wrong. The article English-language spelling reform is more relevant to this discussion. Nyth63 14:20, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

I saw this with the debate here in Misplaced Pages as to whether thru was the proper spelling for our article on drive through and actually I think it should be considered a proper spelling. I heard Wikipedians with the erroneous assertion that thru was simply used because it was shorter both on a drive thru sign and on traffic control signs. And yet if you ask any state DOT if they use thru because it is shorter they will respond with a resounding no and give you a list of words and phrases that are much longer on traffic control devices than the popular "no thru traffic". The real reason? Because it is easier for people to read than a word that is spelled nothing like how it is pronounced, which is important when our schools have semi-illiterates getting diplomas and driver's licences. Now, do we really want to be like the DOT and lower ourselves to the least common denominator? Probably not. But Misplaced Pages, as a constantly evolving institution should face reality and with words like drive thru, use the wp:COMMONNAME. Shit, for example read George Washington's correspondences and you'll see he doesn't even write one of his dentist's names the same way constantly, let alone more common words; so this idea that historical importance on how to spell a word is not important because until the mid-1800s there really wasn't set in stone rules about spelling that were fully accepted throughout the country even though Webster's and other's previous dictionaries had been out for some time. Camelbinky (talk) 15:48, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

And Canada, as usual, is happy using both spellings. Resolute 19:42, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

The spelling and other writing conventions of to-day are not always those of to-morrow. Newyorkbrad (talk) 22:33, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

Shorter words are not new tho.→StaniStani 01:06, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

"will be to publicise existing evidence for the costs of traditional spelling, while encouraging more research in areas such as the levels of functional adult illiteracy" - Far more practically accomplished by banning twitting than attempting English spelling changes. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 18:39, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Twittering, surely? Martinevans123 (talk) 18:45, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

I prefer breathing to tweeting. Tweeting is for the birds, and I am a mammal. Cullen Let's discuss it 06:29, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Exactly! Nyth63 12:19, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Question

In your opinion should one be blocked from editing if they take legal action against the WMF and/or individual editor(s) without making a legal threat on Misplaced Pages? 84.51.184.208 (talk) 14:36, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

I'm of course not speaking for JImbo here, but I'd guess the first thing he'd say is that this question is much too hypothetical, any answer would depend on the details.

IMHO, you should stay away from this question as far as possible, no matter which side you're on. It's not a question of drawing a bright line and saying "that other guy has to stay on the other side of that line", or "I can go right up to point x". The real answer is something like "if I see a legal question coming up from any direction and I'd be tempted to take legal action, or feel the need to protect myself legally - I want to stay as far away as possible. Life on-Wiki is just not worth getting into that." That said I can see people being forced into legal action in certain cases, and at that point follow your lawyer's advice, not mine or Jimbo's!

About the only parallel in real life I can think of would be that of an NHL player who is worried about his health because of fights. Anybody going into the NHL knows, or should have known, that pro hockey games can be rough-and-tumble. They will get into some fights. If they are thinking about suing another player, their team or the league, they will be getting themselves in a world of trouble. Don't do it.

But what if the opposing player pulls out a bowie knife and nobody does anything about it? I'd personally get out of there, quit the league, etc. and consider suing only later, if ever.

About the only Wiki case I can think of that I have ever been tempted to make a legal or regulatory complaint involves something that I considered kiddie-porn. Who to report that to, for both the benefit of Misplaced Pages and the kids involved? I think I did report it to the right person, did not make any legal or regulatory complaint, and was fairly taken aback at the response. Sorry, no details possible! But several months later there was something of an explosion, probably not related to anything I did.

A person coming into Misplaced Pages does not leave his/her legal rights at the door. Discussing general legal issues is not a problem - we need to know what the law is. But legal action is unlikely to have any good effects. Just stay away from that if at all possible. Perhaps a regulatory complaint might sometimes be more acceptable, but still, think at least twice. And please don't try to use this advice in any way against the other guy.

Still thinking about all the above - and not sure about any of it. Probably best to just say "this is too hypothetical, give us some details." But perhaps I've outlined some issues. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 15:47, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

Yes. The point is not that people shouldn't take legal action against WMF, the community or editors, but they can't do it and use community processes at the same time. Having them on both sides of any legal action is a recipe for disaster. WilyD 22:31, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

What if someone decided to get an injunction against the Willy on Wheels for his past vandalism but never made any mention of their action on wiki, should they still be blocked? Ill point out the block template says "you've been blocked for making legal threats or taking legal action" 84.51.184.208 (talk) 15:50, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

This "hypothetical" question sounds it abstracts from a real situation. What is the actual case or threat you are talking about? 50.0.205.75 (talk) 21:31, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Humorous?

Dear Mr. Wales: Please see Friends of gays should not be allowed to edit articles. It is marked as humor, but I really don't understand the title - Poe's law and all that. The article has been kept from deletion, but the title is patently offensive and unnecessary. The discussion page is headlined "This page contains material intended to be humorous. It should not be taken seriously or literally. In case you didn't see the nice little italicized note at the bottom of the page, and are coming here to rant about us all being homophobes, this page is intended to be humourous - it is satire, so laugh, dammit!" Do we really need this? I'm sure all of us have Gay friends, so therefore none of us should edit. With intent to have a kinder, gentler and more inclusive Wiki, I am, sincerely yours, Ellin Beltz (talk) 22:34, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

"I'm sure all of us have Gay friends, so therefore none of us should edit." - You took literally the complete opposite of the message being presented in that essay. And yes, it is definitely satire. The point of that piece is to both note that the angst over vandalism is overblown and to mock the "anonymous users should not be allowed to edit". And yes, a not insignificant percentage of vandalism on Wikimedia comes from people calling their friends gay. Because, lets face it, teenage boys are generally dumb. (Source: I used to be one). The piece is one giant reductio ad absurdum that argues against unnecessarily limiting certain groups (specifically: anons) from being able to edit. Resolute 23:00, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

The title is the problem, not the essay honey. You didn't read Poe's law page, or you would understand that yes - readers of that title will literally take your message to heart whether you think it is humorous or not. I'm not suggesting the essay be removed but only that the title be changed to something which encourages editor retention, not discourages it. Alternate titles have previously been suggested on the discussion page. I'm seeing all kinds of "why can't we keep women" arguments above; I'm asking for "why can't we stop being so insulting to everyone - not just women or gays"? Ellin Beltz (talk) 16:15, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

I think the only people that page is insulting are homophobes. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 23:18, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Anyone who takes the title of the "article" as literal, probably doesn't have the capacity to be a productive contributor .-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 19:18, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

And anyone who can't see the offensiveness of the article title is the problem, not the fact of taking it literal or not, doesnt have the capacity to be a productive contributor to this discussion. Seriously though- if it can be considered offensive remove it. It doesn't harm Misplaced Pages to remove it. It can though cause some to leave. No one is going to leave Misplaced Pages because we change it FROM an offensive name. But we might lose some if we do. Why, oh why, are Wikipedians so intent to leave things just because we can. When did we become such idiots?Camelbinky (talk) 20:57, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

I must admit I agree with @TheRedPenOfDoom: here. I don't find the article title offensive - it's referring to a section of the article and it's satire.--5 albert square (talk) 21:49, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Note that someone has since moved the page to "Vandals should not edit articles", which seems a bit...obvious. No corresponding changes were made to the page text. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:54, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Oh jeez, I saw that page years ago, it didn't seem offensive, except possibly by indirectly disparaging homophobes as as Red Pen says. It posited an AGF interpretation of a bunch of edits that less welcoming Wikipedians might treat as vandalism appealing to benighted homophobic attitudes, and saw them instead as over-effusive affectionate tributes to the contributors' gay friends. Pagemoving it seems almost homophobic in its own right. 50.0.205.75 (talk) 01:56, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

• Just want to leave this here for everyone who read that seriously m:Stupidity of the reader.--AldNon 02:53, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
• Almost forgot, also this Misplaced Pages:Ignore Meta. Thank you.--AldNon 03:08, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Sharyl Attkisson sums up the problem at Misplaced Pages in recent TedX

Hi there Jimbo and all, I thought you might be interested in this little clip.

• Astroturf and manipulation of media messages | Sharyl Attkisson | TEDxUniversityofNevada

Sharyl Attkisson calls out WP specifically (@ 4:00). While I think her investigation into Misplaced Pages could have been much deeper, as her examples weren't the best, she does speak to the crux of the problem here as I see it. It is, at the very least, the best explanation of what drove me away from WP (that, and the revenge editing - a result of my attempts to bring this very activity to light).

I know we've had discussions about WP being used by special interests, and from what I experienced, months and years of talk page activity has done nothing to curtail the problem. I left because I do not see the problem reversing. It's actually getting worse. Editors whom I respect, who are still here, have simply found the small corners of WP that aren't battle grounds, and have stayed there. petrarchan47tc 23:08, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

It's totally aggravating, I just finished editing on this Acharya S's Talk page for an article, which only Administrators can edit. Raquel Baranow (talk) 23:22, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

see User_talk:Jimbo_Wales/Archive_182#Journalist_Sharyl_Attkisson_criticizes_Wikipedia -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 23:26, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

If WP continues to deny that there is a problem here, obviously it will never change. Outside of this bubble, people are well aware that some categories of WP are little more than thinly-veiled ads, and from what I am hearing, distrust the entire site. I saw some crazy activity in the GMO and pharmaceutical articles, but had never heard of astroturfing until this video. It summarized for me why my experience here was so maddening. There is purportedly a great concern about why female editors are in short supply, so take this as a single case study, if nothing more. This female x-editor left because Misplaced Pages is overrun with the activity described in the video as astroturfing, FWIW. petrarchan47tc 23:54, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

"don't believe everything you read on the web". Not very shocking. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 04:02, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Sharyl mentions you here TRPoD. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 16:34, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

I have made the pages of wikipediocracy - I can now die with my bucket list complete! -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 23:10, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Petrarchan, I think we're on the same page that what went on with BP's public-relations department writing copy for our articles on their oil spill was a disgrace. And I think you're absolutely wise to treat anything you read on Misplaced Pages with a default attitude of skepticism. I'd only suggest that you apply the same default level of skepticism to pretty much anything that Sharyl Attkisson says. In terms of actual harm caused by propagating misinformation and ignorance, the anti-vaccine movement (of which Attkisson is either a charter member or fellow traveler, depending on your viewpoint) has a huge leg up on Misplaced Pages at the moment. MastCell  17:18, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Hi, MC. I am not referring to 'my' skepticism. I do not read WP anymore. I am speaking of people I have run into since leaving WP, ie, "outside of this bubble". I left with the intention (since I was unable to change things here) of warning others about this site given what I have witnessed. In these 9 months or so, I haven't had to school even one solitary individual - everyone I have run into IRL or online already knows. (Even today I watched a video where someone referred to WP and added the caveat "I don't recommend WP, but..." and then quoted some meaningless stat.) It doesn't matter what Sharryl is about, it in no way changes that fact that WP is a victim of massive spin-doctoring by special interests. And it has simply ruined Misplaced Pages as a trusted source, regardless of what Google, or the echo chamber here, declares. To shoot the messenger with ad hominems, and to see RPoDoom pipe in when they clearly have a history with Sharryl, is quite disheartening. The capacity for self-evaluation here appears close to nil. If three people tell you that you have a tail, it is best to turn around and have a look. petrarchan47tc 20:20, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Given the content in the section below about Google depending upon Misplaced Pages as a source of "truth", is it time for Misplaced Pages to start a public education campaign to reframe how the public views the stuff we provide ? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 17:56, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

I liked this comment: "There is an entire industry built around it in Washington".... perhaps start there.... —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 23:01, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for sharing the TedX video and the pointer to the previous discussion of it here. I don't understand why we are not taking what she said more seriously. I noticed a number of responses in both discussions include a heavy use of ad hominems attacking the presenter (Sharyl Attkisson) rather than the material presented. In the first round she was called a "conspiracy theorist", "charlatan", "crank" and suggestions she is "stupid". TedX presenters like her, were called "flaky". Many people identified her as "anti-vaccine", but in fact, that is not true, as is made clear on her talk page:

Other than the conjecture of biased and/or conflicted editors, there is no evidence that Attkisson has any anti-vaccine views at all. The term "anti-vaccine" is an agreed-upon propagandist phrase which the vaccine industry and its surrogates apply to anyone who examines vaccine safety, in an attempt to halt independent investigation of vaccine safety scientific questions. It's as inflammatory and misleading of a label as calling someone who is "pro-choice" -- "pro-murder." Merely reporting on vaccine safety issues -- even if the pharmaceutical industry and its surrogates don't like it-- is no more "anti-vaccine" than reporting on Firestone tire safety issues is "anti-tire," or reporting on Congressional corruption is "anti-Congress," or reporting on a dangerous drug is "anti-medicine," or reporting on a charity scandal is "anti-charity." In fact, one could easily make the argument that reporting which results in discussions regarding make vaccines safer is in fact pro vaccine, not anti vaccine. source

I reviewed the article that was used by a seconary source to prove she is "anti-vaccine": here It looks to me like balanced reporting (NPOV). One of the users most engaged to force the "anti-vaccine" label on her page was the first to dismiss what she said with ad hominem attacks.

These ad hominems are particularly interesting because, this is exactly what she points to as the warning signs one is being sold a bill of goods:

• use of inflammatory language such as: "crank", "quack", "nutty", "paranoid", "pseudo" and "conspiracy" to marginalize any critic, so they are not worth listening to.
• Astroturfers say they will "debunk myths", which are not myths at all.
• attacking the people, personalities and organization surrounding the "myth" rather than the facts of what the person or organization says.
• all skepticism is focused on those exposing wrong-doing (the whistleblowers) rather than the wrong-doers. Instead of questioning authority, they question those who question authority.

If criticism of industry is white-washed with company PR materials, as happened with BP, shouldn't we be concerned? Here we are seeing yet more complaints of this same problem from another outside reporter. I too have seen this same problem with all the GMO articles, where labels like WP:Fringe, "activist", "agenda", etc. are used to keep the views of GMO critics from getting NPOV treatment in the articles--even the controversy aricle. If this is allowed to continue unchecked, the credibility of Misplaced Pages--for presenting materials in an NPOV manner without undue influence from industry PR--is going to plumet.

I do have a question for Mastcell in particular. You were one of the users who were most understanding of this serious problem with the BP issue. You said:

The real question is whether those rules make sense if we aspire to be a serious, respectable reference work. Do you think it's OK for a company's PR staff to play a substantial role in drafting our coverage of that company? A role which is entirely undisclosed to the casual reader? If so, then we're setting ourselves outside the boundaries that have normally defined credible, reputable reference works. MastCell Talk 23:18, 27 March 2013 (UTC) source

If a reference work routinely allows a company's PR staff to play a substantial and undisclosed (to the casual reader) role in developing coverage of that company, I'd be very hesitant to extend credibility to that reference work. That approach violates every basic precept governing how serious, reputable reference works handle conflicts of interest. I understand your point about OTRS, but I also think there's a practical difference between a small company which finds itself vilified on Misplaced Pages, versus BP which has a public-relations budget of $5 million per week (). In the latter case, I don't think we can reasonably rely on a handful of pseudonymous volunteers to vet the material produced by a massive, dedicated, well-funded professional PR operation. And while I don't think the mainstream press or the world at large cares a whit about various internal Misplaced Pages machinations and politics, I do think that it will look very bad for this project if/when the mainstream press (as opposed to, as you rightly point out, a handful of people with axes to grind) gets ahold of this. If we seriously expect to defend our practices by saying that we relied on a handful of pseudonymous volunteers to vet material provided by BP's public-relations department, and that we didn't disclose BP's role in drafting the content to the casual reader, then I think we're going to take a pretty big, and well-deserved, hit in terms of credibility. MastCell Talk 16:44, 28 March 2013 (UTC) source

Now Atkinson is saying the same thing about Big Pharma that Violet Blue said about the oil companies--PR people determining content either up front or surrepiticiously . I don't understand why you are not just as concerned about these COI problems that are happening with pharmaceuticals, and are now an equally big problem with GMO articles which lack of NPOV.

I hope we can all take seriously the continuing and expaning problem of industry PR and work together to address the problem before we lose even more honest unpaid editors and the public starts to lose confidence in Misplaced Pages for failing to keep this COI behavior in check.David Tornheim (talk) 00:58, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

So after canvassing Petrarchan, Viriditas, and others to try to whip up support to add POV content to the articles about GMOs (and this thread appears to have stemmed directly from that) you are now continuing your campaigning in classic ax-grindy form on Jimbo's Talk page and following Petrarchan in using this page to accuse me and others of COI in the GMO articles. And hanging your hat on an anti-vaxer. OK then. Jytdog (talk) 03:20, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Google deciding truth

"A team of computer scientists at Google has proposed a way to rank search results not by how popular Web pages are, but by their factual accuracy."

• Google has developed a technology to tell whether ‘facts’ on the Internet are true—The Washington Post (March 2, 2015)

Facts are true, and myths are fiction. A datum can be either true or false.
—Wavelength (talk) 00:37, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

I wonder if we'd be better off comparing the rest of the Internet to Misplaced Pages, or Misplaced Pages to the rest of the Internet. Of course, Misplaced Pages's score will be artificially inflated in any event by all the mirror sites that reprint everything we publish, including all of the good encyclopedic content, but also all of the BLP violations and the nonsense and the hoaxes. (I just deleted a self-evident hoax this morning that had lingered for nine and one-half years, for God's sake.) Newyorkbrad (talk) 00:54, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Yes, indeed you did. More on that story a bit later.→StaniStani 01:10, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Doesn't that depend on whether you're the sort of person who wants to set the bar high for the "encyclopedia that anyone can edit" or set it low? Should it really matter for us that the rest of the internet is crap? Let me rephrase you. I wonder if we'd be better off (actually not sure what that means - better of how and for whom?) comparing academic Encyclopedias and scholarly work to Misplaced Pages, or Misplaced Pages to the the rest of the Internet? Do we want to be the best of online "collection of facts and rumors" sites or do we actually have an aspiration to be ... an encyclopedia? Short term, given our advantages, we can compete with similar sites on the Internet. Long term we'll lose, editor decline and all. Short term, we are a bit of an embarrassment (at least in some areas) compared to professional publications. Long term the only viable strategy might be to move that way.Volunteer Marek (talk) 01:30, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict) WP is arguably the most successful puff piece ever. That what we say here might be taken as some sort of "truth" is a big problem for me because it becomes self-perpetuating despite WP:VNT and, obviously, has long been evident through mirrors etc. We might proclaim VNT but the mirrors etc do not repeat that in any obvious manner. Most of our content is at best ill-informed and is not infrequently, plain crap. I live in hope but, alas, a declining hope. That said, what Google choose to do is their business. I'd like to think that they would have more sense but, hey, since when has that been a feature of big business and personal aggrandisement? We could at least change the trend by binning 90 per cent or so of the content: it is, really, not so much encyclopaedic as fancruft in its many variant forms. - Sitush (talk) 02:47, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Just to spell out what I think I'm reading - is the following true?

• "Basically, to evaluate a stated fact, you only need two things: the fact and a reference work to compare it to. Google already has the beginnings of that reference work, in the form of its Knowledge Graph"
• "Google culls those details largely from services like Freebase, Misplaced Pages and the CIA World Factbook;" and maybe a few others
• So Misplaced Pages and the CIA are the sources of the ultimate reference? We're writing the ultimate "book of truth"??
• That's pretty scary if I'm reading this correctly.

Smallbones_(smalltalk) 02:43, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

According to the article in The Washington Post, (1) your first point is true, but (2) your second point is misleading, because the preposition like introduces examples and is similar to e.g. (sometimes confused with i.e.). The addendum and maybe a few others confuses a selected subset of examples from a set with the complete set. (Compare MOS:SUBSET.) (3) To each one of the two parts of your third point, I answer "No". (4) I have no comment (except this one) about your fourth point.

—Wavelength (talk) 03:48, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

For a long time Misplaced Pages and Google have been both collaborators and competitors. Misplaced Pages is essentially a human-optimized search engine that should be meant to link you rapidly and easily to the most relevant primary and secondary sources about something you're interested in. Google does most of Misplaced Pages's promotion because Misplaced Pages is so dang useful. Things like Knowledge Graph are useful innovations, but they could be rivalled by more work at our end (for example, someday someone ought to make a proper Q-and-A index of all the Refdesk archives). What's disturbing though is that if Google and its customers become satisfied enough with its AI toy, then they'll be asking "Google" on their phone what the mass of Mars is rather than going to Misplaced Pages and reading Mars and possibly becoming editors if they dig deep for the most up to date figures, which could impact us long-term. The possible harm from Google acting as monopoly is unrestricted: yes, they may promote wrong "facts", but the more obvious risk is that someday, after they finish merging with a few dozen more companies, you simply wake up and they're charging $30 a month to use ... just about anything you use on the Internet. Or, more likely, they start charging in privacy, by only handing out their information to identified users of Google Wallet or something, and get paid by the back door by the NSA and its fellow agencies around the world. To the degree that Misplaced Pages acts as a genuine competitor we help to reduce the risk of such scenarios. Wnt (talk) 13:42, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

User:Wnt I love you buddy, but you should have stopped about a sentence or two earlier. :) Camelbinky (talk) 15:06, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Dagnabbit! I just knew the NSA would be to blame for all this nonsense. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:15, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

They are...the five hundred dollar hammers and seven hundred dollar toilet seats is how they laundry money which goes to Google and others to erect multibillion dollar data centers...and everyone thought those data centers were paid by advertising revenue....lol.--MONGO 15:25, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

With ready access to inside information from every company, industry, and central bank board in the world, the only thing limiting NSA's revenue is its ethics. Wnt (talk) 15:55, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, you had me cheering until the penultimate sentence. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 15:30, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Doesn't anybody read the news at all? Admittedly, even three different programs paying several hundred million yearly apiece wouldn't equal the revenue of a significant monthly fee... but that's only what's been leaked! And if Google had hard identity data on all its streams obviously they could expect a bigger cut. Wnt (talk) 15:53, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

I could easily come up with plenty of articles that would fail a truth test. But, I know better then to do so. GoodDay (talk) 17:10, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

• I came across this article and I was glad it was written by a high school student. People are not idiots about the internet (including Misplaced Pages) nor are they idiots about news. "How can journalists and bloggers avoid falling into these traps? The answer seems easy enough: Do more research (or at least run a few Google searches) before publishing a post." . Alanscottwalker (talk) 18:02, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

• I think some people are overestimating a bit how much Misplaced Pages is in use by the knowledge graph, it's a source, and for a very long time it used to be the biggest and most important source that was the most visible. But, over the past 4 years or so, google has been adding and scraping hundreds if not thousands of such source databases. If anything, I think they are becoming less and less reliant on Misplaced Pages, which is a good thing (for them). Latest example of their work: Google measles, and you get a fresh new information box about the disease, with a cartoon, symptoms, diagnostic and treatment information. Sourced from reputable medical sources. We are becoming less relevant by the day. —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 22:53, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

@TheDJ, I think WP will always be extremely relevant in searches because of what User:Wnt noted above, "Misplaced Pages is essentially a human-optimized search engine". Although many simple, or direct, questions could be answered by Google medical facts or similar, a major advantage of WP is the abundance of optimized disambiguation pages, as related terms "in a nutshell". Consider how the page "The Sound of Music (disambiguation)" quickly includes the company formerly named "Sound of Music" now named "Best Buy" among many facts related to the term. A Google Search rarely includes that level of condensed, cross-related data. -Wikid77 (talk) 23:54, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

My understanding is that Google has decided to penalize their search listing rank of sites which are known to be spreading disinformation, and increase the ranking of sites which have a reputation for reliability. I wholeheartedly endorse this and I hope they start with politically biased news sites. EllenCT (talk) 17:28, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

"When Gauss, Bolyai and Lobatchevsky 'discovered' hyperbolic geometry, what they did was to explore the consequences of this axiom. They found that, far from leading to a quick contradiction, it led to a beautiful body of theorems, different from those of Euclidean geometry and somewhat counterintuitive, but consistent with each other." (paragraph 3) If there were to be a huge increase in public interest in non-Euclidean geometry and consequently a huge increase in the number of websites discussing it, there could be a situation where it validates itself and invalidates Euclidean geometry.

—Wavelength (talk) 19:10, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

I don't know whether you intended to reply to me or someone else, but Euclidian and non-Euclidean geometry don't contradict each other, they're just alternatives with their own legitimacy, just like color and black and white photography. If you are suggesting that automating search rank adjustments by reputation might penalize them, I think you're mistaken, but I suppose only time will tell. From what I've read about Google's approach, they are targeting specific topics where misinformation causes harm, disruption, mob action, prejudice, or economic disadvantage, and on each such topics trying to identify sites which should either be more visible or less visible in results for searches on those topics. Geometry is unlikely to show up in that list. Vaccination already does. I hope supply-side trickle-down austerity advocacy gets the axe. EllenCT (talk) 23:13, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

I did intend to reply to you, and I indented my reply with two colons in response to your reply (which should have been indented with one colon, if it was intended as a reply to my original post). (Please see WP:INDENT and WP:THREAD.) If an algorithm used by Google considers online text at face value and out of context, then it would probably find the two types of geometry to be mutually contradictory. (Euclidean and Non-Euclidean Geometry)

—Wavelength (talk) 23:55, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Wikioogle?

The above thread concerning Google's new approach towards "truthiness" got me thinking... yea, I know, that's dangerous. But what I'm curious about is this- could the WMF form some sort of search engine that would help those that have questions but are not sure where to start? Right now to go to Misplaced Pages to look up some thing that you aren't sure of, you almost have to by default go to a search engine of your choice to find what you really want to look up on Misplaced Pages. How many time's I've not known an actor's name and had to first google (generic for check a search engine) something like "actor in Lincoln car commercial" to figure out oh yea it's Matthew McConahoweveryouspellit. Then of course I come to Misplaced Pages, read up on him, go to Netflix and put on a movie with him that I saw on his bio. I think out of Bing, Ask, Yahoo, et al that a Misplaced Pages based search engine would actually give Google a run for its money. A couple snazzy commercials touting "ad free" and "we respect your privacy" and "no data mining", some humorous, some with Mr. Wales talking to the camera being all sensitive to modern concerns about privacy; some with pointed jabs directly at Google. Then, all the free press of David up against Goliath. It's doable. I'd be the first to donate to the specific cause of setting it up. Pledge $2,000 right now. Save the diff.Camelbinky (talk) 20:18, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

I'd be happy enough if WMF could just give us a WYSIWYG article editor that works well. Carrite (talk) 21:57, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages doesn't auto-search synonyms as well: A major reason why Google or Bing (etc.) can better match searches is due to the matching of synonym words among a broader selection of related webpages. Currently, WP can somewhat find that "actor in Lincoln car commercial" but the word "commercial" should be replaced with synonym "spots" as being: wikisearch "actor in Lincoln car spots". It is very difficult for wikisearch to auto-search for synonym words, among many thousands of common terms and related words. Note that Google is running evermore "autofixing" of searches to match the more-likely, more-common topics, rather than search literally for text as typed by a user. It appears that Google is improving the underlying aspects of "associative retrieval" for the related data. The Google empire has gone beyond text-searches to run info-searches in a vast knowledge base of human-oriented data. -Wikid77 (talk) 23:18, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Google's synonyms can be a hindrance as often as a help, and I remember times when efforts to rein in their machines seemed fruitless (like putting + first or using quotes). When search engines start assuming you're looking up the same thing as everybody else, you wonder who has access to the real search engine made for creative people to find new things. I would much more highly value the ability to exactly match search terms, including capitalization, punctuation, and all special characters! Wnt (talk) 01:17, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

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