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Cwobeel

Arbitration enforcement action appeal by Thargor Orlando

Procedural notes: The rules governing arbitration enforcement appeals are found here. According to the procedures, a "clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors" is required to overturn an arbitration enforcement action.

To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).

Appealing user

Thargor Orlando (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – Thargor Orlando (talk) 18:36, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

Sanction being appealed

Thargor Orlando (talk · contribs) indefinitely topic banned from all edits and discussion regarding User:MarkBernstein and restricted from opening and noticeboard discussions or enforcement requests related to MarkBernstein without the permission of an uninvolved administrator.

Administrator imposing the sanction

Gamaliel (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Notification of that administrator

Statement by Thargor Orlando

Two quick housekeeping notes

1. Mentions of MarkBernstein in this scenario are for background purposes only, done so under the auspices of "exceptions to limited bans", specifically "appealing the ban" (which I do here and requires discussion of the topic ban to be appealed) and, to a lesser extent, "asking for necessary clarifications about the scope of the ban." This is not an implication of trying to enact any new disciplinary sanctions. I opted not to tag Mark in this proceeding in order to not make further implications on the matter, not to keep anyone in the dark, and any editor that thinks I made the wrong call here is free to tag him.
2. I assume this is the correct forum for this. If not, a point in the correct direction would be appreciated.

This topic ban was put in place for reasons that are not entirely clear, and certainly not supported by any available evidence. Gamaliel's only real citation comes from this diff, where he claims my assertions are "worse" than what was said, and that Bernstein does not have the opportunity to respond. This was the wrong call on a number of points.

First, Gamaliel takes issues with two quotes, both from this comment. The first quote is "It's further evidence that his contributions are a negative to the article space," which is based on Bernstein's block history, multiple topic bans in the area, and own comments, and seemed self-evident. The context is where Gamaliel's second quote comes from, ""Mark's own intentions in this clarification is to drag the drama he continually creates within the Gamergate space into the campus rape disputes," which was directly related to this clarification request, which discussed Bernstein being approached by an "activist" for a "Misplaced Pages initiative." Given Bernstein's history in the topic space, it seemed incredibly clear to me that this was a blatant attempt to push the boundaries of his existing topic ban (a topic ban initiated by User:Dreadstar that I had no involvement in requesting, I should add) in an area he has clearly shown disruption in.

Gamaliel, in his initial comment, believes we cannot "play nice with each other." This may be granted, although I don't see why we need to "play nice" with what I believe is clear disruption. Gamaliel's claim is that I made "much worse statements about those you are complaining about," but none of those worse statements were provided. Meanwhile, the person I am "complaining about" has, in the past months, implied that I was being "deploy, repeatedly went after me personally with untrue claims (), and so on. This disruption is long-standing, and my statements in support of my point of view regarding his status are based clearly in the history of the situation. Statements cannot occur in a vacuum, the history simply must be taken into account.

As an added problem, the language of the topic ban is overly broad, as Bernstein has injected himself into the conflict in the real world, being quoted multiple times on blogs and having his own words reposted in legitimate media. The spirit of the topic ban suggests that Gamaliel is simply tired of having to hear appeals toward Bernstein's behavior, the wording puts my editing in the article space in jeopardy if an administrator or tendentious editor opts to try to make hay of the situation.

The Gamergate sanctions are in place to reduce the disruption in the article space, not to keep editors from making good-faith and evidence-supported appeals for their use against disruptive editors. Perhaps if my complaints were about an editor without a block and topic ban history in the sanctioned space, there might be some merit to this to discuss. Instead, the route chosen implies that I have done something wrong, tarnishes my otherwise clean record, and does the opposite of the intention of the sanctions by keeping editors in good standing from being able to combat said disruption. The topic ban on me clearly needs to be overturned on its merits.

@Ched: the problem is that no behavior issues have been presented. Without any behavior issues to point to, there's nothing to show improvement on and nothing to address. There is no current guidance in place and no problems demonstrated, thus the immediate appeal. If you have specifics in mind, presenting those would be very helpful toward coming to a conclusion. Thargor Orlando (talk) 19:41, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

@Ched:: Sure, it's "better" in that it's not a topic ban, but it still implies behavioral issues that have not been detailed, and assumes that I need to be restricted in that area without evidence. The issue is not the type of ban, but that the ban exists without cause at all. To clarify, an IBAN would at least eliminate the possibility of edits at an article being used against me simply because Bernstein is quoted in the media, but it doesn't address the broader issue. Thargor Orlando (talk) 20:53, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

@Gamaliel: can you please detail the "five months" of "disparaging comments?" Preferably with diffs so we can move forward on this? You're correct that we have repeatedly, in the proper forums and the proper formats, requested administrative interventions due to his behavior. In a sense, any dispute resolution will be "disparaging," however, so this just seems to be a complaint about our valid concerns about how this particular situation has continued to be handled. Thargor Orlando (talk) 21:07, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

@Gamaliel: my apologies for inadvertently misquoting you. What I'm trying to do is end the disruption, plain and simple. If we want to get down to brass tacks, if he were topic banned as I believe he should be, there would be no reason for me to continue to endorse enforcement requests (you'll note that I have never initiated one with him) because it would be done and over with. WP:BANEX allows him to defend himself, so it's not as if he can't address them, and there is no evidence you're providing that is showing that I'm trying to goad him or talking about him in areas that he cannot respond. In fact, I don't think I've raised anything that he's said or done specifically about me at all, nor am I sure he's actually addressed me in a problematic way since you lifted his block a month ago. The evidence just doesn't stack up in terms of what you believe I've done, which is why I'm not incredibly happy with being hit with the shrapnel as a result. Co-signing on an assertion that someone is continuing to be disruptive in exactly the way you have expressed that you want it to occur after they've assured the block-lifting admin they wouldn't be should not be a sanctionable offense. Thargor Orlando (talk) 21:49, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

@Gamaliel: I find it frustrating that, after I've been gone for two days, no actual evidence has been presented here to justify this continued action while, at the same time, appearing to want to ignore the issues of topic bans being ignored with impunity occurs on the same page. To go directly to your criticism, if I had noticed that User:YellowSandals was topic banned, I likely would have brought some attention to it, but, believe it or not, I'm really not up on a lot of the topic bans outside of the ones levied and, in a handful of specific cases, not levied by Arbcom. I would appreciate some sort of evidence-based explanation on why this should continue to be upheld at this point. When I get topic banned without any warning while other actual disruptive people get their (to use some of your words) third, fourth, umpteenth chances, it starts to give the impression of something else at play here. Thargor Orlando (talk) 16:22, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

@HJ Mitchell: under what metric are you measuring "equal responsibility?" On one side, you have someone who has never been blocked, sanctioned, or topic banned in any area of the project. On the other, you have someone who has been topic banned and blocked numerous times for repeated disruption which included personal attacks against myself. Why am I responsible for the behavior of anyone else in this instance? "In the interests of the encyclopedia," we have options to deal with disruption. Topic banning people who are not disruptive are not it. Thargor Orlando (talk) 16:13, 14 March 2015 (UTC)

@Liz: it's about the necessity of such a restriction. Speaking solely for myself, no obvious justification has been given, after nearly 2 weeks of asking for said justification. I see claims of "equal responsibility" from User:HJ Mitchell without evidence, I see multiple claims from User:Gamaliel of "worse things" and of "disparaging comments" without evidence, and at some point one expects some sort of evidence to come out about it. That I can be away for days at a time, and still have no answers is frustratingly irritating, especially as I watch things devolve in the requests below (indicating both that it doesn't appear I'm actually the problem, and that my repeated appeals for action were not unjustified). Maybe those in favor of continuing these needless, open-ended restrictions on me can actually provide some evidence for their need. Thargor Orlando (talk) 19:17, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

Statement by Gamaliel

What benefit is it to the encyclopedia if these users are allowed to continue to make negative and potentially disparaging statements about Mark Bernstein?

If Mark Bernstein violates rules or sanctions, then they can report that to an administrator. This does not prevent them from seeking redress or reporting a violation, it merely prevents them from complaining about this particular user on the encyclopedia, as they have been doing for at least five months.

There are many editors and administrators on Misplaced Pages. They could simply leave this matter to one of them. This is something we regularly advise people to do on Misplaced Pages. Take the example of NorthBySouthBaranof elsewhere on this page. He is correct that something is wrong at the Lena Dunham article, but he should leave the matter for someone else to handle because his past behavior has proven disruptive in certain areas, just as the past interactions of these editors with Mark Bernstein have increased tensions and disrupted the atmosphere of collaborative editing. Gamaliel (talk) 20:57, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

@Ched: That is correct, the ban does not prevent interactions between DHeyward and Orlando. I believe I clarified that in the messages on their respective talk pages and the sanctions log, but if either are ambiguous I will correct them. I chose a topic ban over an interaction ban because I did not want to inhibit article discussion, just personal remarks. I have no particular objection to changing it if others think it necessary. Gamaliel (talk) 21:03, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

@Thargor Orlando: You have quoted me in a manner that changes the meaning of what I said. I did not say that the two of you have been insulting Mark Bernstein for five months. You have, however, been enthusiastic users of noticeboards and admin talk pages in an effort to get him sanctioned, and in the process said many things about him that were negative. Some of them were true, others were opinions that are valid, but may be interpreted negatively. During most of this, Mark Bernstein has been under a topic ban or other restriction which has prevented him from replying in kind, and any comment of his that is remotely like some of the things you have said about him gets another round of noticeboard reports about him, along with another opportunity for you to recapitulate your negative opinions about him. Rightly or wrongly, he perceives this as a series of attacks upon him, and has now resorted to filing retaliatory noticeboard complaints against the two of you. And then we do it all over again. This is the cycle that this sanction is attempting to stop. Gamaliel (talk) 21:23, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

@DHeyward: So prohibiting you from participating in endless noticeboard complaints "prolongs the drama" by forcing you to file a noticeboard complaint? Gamaliel (talk) 00:19, 14 March 2015 (UTC)

Statement by DHeyward

I, too, am maligned by the same topic ban by Gamaliel with not a single diff which I consider casting aspersions. Further, my contribution to this was that I brought MarkBernsteins comments to two uninvolved administrators. I did not characterize which statements were problematic but both admins sanctioned MarkBernstein for them including one topic ban. This is the remedy Gamaliel has proposed as the solution but when it led to the TBan of an editor he is sympathetic to, he seems to want to take it out on editors not involved in that. As can be seen, Gamaliel's remedy led to MarkBernstein filing an ARCA reuest, an ANI request, and two AE requests. Neither I nor Orlando have filed. In addition, another editor has filed an AE request against MarkBernstein. In response, MarkBernstein repeated the statements that led to his sanction. Gamaliel seems to be confused as to who is filing requests for enforcement. There is simply no basis for his sanction. In addition MarkBernstein was prohibited from filing AE requests per WP:BANEX. Gamaliel, being the first commenter and admin should have closed the AE request rather than stoking its flames. --DHeyward (talk) 18:58, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

Ched Echoing Orlando. Gamaliel has implies it's a three way IBAN issue when really it's a single topic-banned editor (who is again at AE). Gamaliel put a lot of things in quotes without saying who and where they were said. In short, I did everything Gamaliel requested. There are no noticeboard complaints started by me over these issues. I took my concerns about a comment to two independent admins and both acted on it. Those administrative actions drove one editor to open multiple forum requests including ANI, ARCA, and two AE requests. In addition, another editor has brought an AE request against him and you can read his reply . None of this has anything to do with Orlando and me. I had already done everything Gamaliel thinks I should have done and if I didn't, he hasn't provided any diffs. I have no problem with an an on-your-honor agreement but logging it as if I have an interaction issue with anyone misconstrues everything that has occurred here. Certainly there is no conflict between Orlando and I which is implied in the sanction. It has no basis. If Gamaliel's intention was to avoid drama and conflict, he should withdraw his sanction that is not based in either process or fact and let it close. EdJohnston nailed the deficiencies in the request. MarkBernstein is already topic banned so creating a sanction that both Orlando and I will appeal is only dragging out the problem needlessly. --DHeyward (talk) 20:11, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

Gamaliel I did that. How do you think MarkBernstein received a topic ban? It was by notifying two uninvolved admins. I've only responded to his AE charges that he brought to noticeboards. There are no noticeboard filings by me over this and there are no quotes you cited that he can't or didn't respond to. It seems rather an odd statement to say that my replies to MarkBernstein's noticeboard filings about me somehow have put him at a disadvantage. Where are imagining this happening? I've asked for diff's yet none are forthcoming. You made statements and put quotes around them but without attribution. EdJohnston is correct in his assessment. You should have ended the drama by closing his two WP:BANEX violating AE requests instead of feeding them. It is your sanction, without merit, that is dragging this out. Like I said, I have no intention of bringing MarkBernstein to boards and didn't so your solution is really in search of a problem. --DHeyward (talk) 21:11, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

Gamaliel diffs or please stop casting aspersions. Posting notices on uninvolved admins pages that have invoked sanctions on MB is NOT any kind of abuse of process. Participating in discussions where we have been the targets of his comments about editors is NOT any kind of abuse of process. I am sorry that you are upset about MBs topic ban and believe it is one-sided but you need to take it up with Dreadstar, not punish his victims. Please explain what behavior you think would be stopped by this sanction? We will still ask admins to intervene if MarkBernstein is abusive. Uninvolved admins will still sanction him. Your insistence only prolongs the drama. If you read the comments of the other admins for both cases MarkBernstein filed, you seem the only one thinking sanctions are needed. Even in Orlando's, that was summarily closed because MarkBernstein is TBanned from even making AE complaints, you still called for sanctions when others correctly saw a process error as well as nothing to warrant a sanction. Please don't make this a full on drama appeal over a sanction that does nothing but tarnish reputations and extend drama. --DHeyward (talk) 00:00, 14 March 2015 (UTC)

Gamaliel Diffs or stop casting aspersions. A groundless sanction that wouldn't have stopped a single thing you claim to be worried out will be appealed. You have made an accusation of wrongdoing and keep mentioning board participation. I only ask for diffs which you don't supply because they don't tell the story you've been selling.. We wouldn't be here or at any boards because of me and I request you remove the sanction. Close it with no sanctions and there is no more drama. It ended with Mark's TBan. The sanction is unnecessary and I take offense at being painted with your broad brush without so much as a diff showing how your remedy would have played out differently or what egregious error in civility I made. --DHeyward (talk) 00:30, 14 March 2015 (UTC)

Here is the first request filed by MB. Note Gamaliel was the first admin to comment on how one-sided MB's TBan is and how his TBan should be dropped (or everyone is TBanned). Luckily cooler heads dismissed it. Moments later, MB files another AE based on comments I made in his first AE. The cooler heads did not join until later and advocated that Gamaliel at least provide a diff and also pointed out the complaint was a BANEX violation by MB. No such luck on the diff. --DHeyward (talk) 00:43, 14 March 2015 (UTC)

HJ_Mitchell, Ched The issue is this accusation of wrongdoing. In a few weeks, what exactly do you think would happen? "It won't happen again?" Exactly what will I not do to avoid this? I've been civil to MarkBernstein. There is no evidence of wrongdoing. There is no "Well both sides...." If there is, find a diff and post it. There is nothing. The fact is Gamaliel lifted his topic ban and he returned to edits that attacked other editors and I've patiently brought them to uninvolved admins. Harry, how many times have you warned MB? How many times did Dreadstar warn him? Show a diff where I should be sanctioned for doing something wrong, or even incivil. Nobody wants the toxic GamerGate atmosphere but it was re-inflicted on us when MB us unbanned and unblocked. It is now much better. Clear the sanction log because this is really just one editor violating every condition of his early release as well as the GG general sanctions. --DHeyward (talk) 18:07, 14 March 2015 (UTC)

Why is a simple request like a diff so hard to comply with? Show me a diff where this sanction would have changed anything or show me a diff of wrongdoing? --DHeyward (talk) 18:07, 14 March 2015 (UTC)

HJ_Mitchell the only thing not normal is the kid glove treatment afforded MarkBernstein. There is no animosity between parties but there is a lot of animosity between MB and anyone that disagrees with him. He's made accusations of collusion offsite, constantly refers to other editors after multiple warnings, etc, etc. This is why he is now also topic banned. I wish I had as many warnings as MarkBernstein and we could close this as I think I am due about 5 more talk page warnings before a sanction is even contemplated (and the next one would be a "stern warning"). MB endorsed this sanction and mentioned he provided admins with information and that the admins have agreed to his conditions. None of that has been disclosed or offered to anyone else. Please disclose it so we can see how "not normal" this whole ordeal has been. I see the this sanction is working based on the lack of AE requests regarding MB. The only unchanging factor is his champion.

--DHeyward (talk) 03:43, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

Statement by Rhoark

MarkBernstein brought two frivolous motions, that he didn't have standing to file, on the basis of two editors making factual statements about MB's ban history. I really don't see how anyone could derive "equal responsibility" from that. I get that admins are sick of the whole thing and want to make it go away, but just sanctioning any names that show up at enforcement will only encourage more people with an axe to grind to try their luck at enforcement roulette. Rhoark (talk) 19:33, 14 March 2015 (UTC)

PeterTheFourth is not uninvolved. Rhoark (talk) 01:54, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

Statement by (involved editor 3)

Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Thargor Orlando

Statement by PeterTheFourth

DHeyward requested (begged for) diffs where this remedy would have 'changed anything', so I've helpfully compiled a small list., this entire request, , somewhat thinly veiled, PeterTheFourth (talk) 01:12, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

Only this one would have been prevented by the sanction. Everything else was to uninvolved admins which is allowed. --DHeyward (talk) 03:59, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

@Rhoark: I was of the impression that 'uninvolved' referred to editors who are not mentioned in the remedy. I'd be grateful to the editor who clarified and moved my statement if necessary. PeterTheFourth (talk) 02:04, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

Statement by Starke Hathaway

Applying sanctions to two veteran editors without producing any evidence of wrongdoing on their part not only offends traditional notions of fair play and procedural and substantive justice, it also fails to demonstrate that (1) there is a problem with these editors' behavior and (2) that the imposed sanctions will do anything to cure this problem. Particularly where, as here, the imposing admin has toed the line of involvement in the topic area and has a non-negligible history of sympathetic involvement with the editor who requested action against these two editors, I do not think this was a proper exercise of admin authority. Besides, I count no fewer than four warnings issued to MarkBernstein about not commenting on other editors by four different admins before he was placed under any sanction this time around, despite having been unblocked under the explicit condition that he was to avoid personally-directed comments. Why should DHeyward and Thargor Orlando not be extended the same courtesy? -Starke Hathaway (talk) 21:16, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

Statement by YellowSandals

My topic ban states I'm supposed to avoid editing on the subject of Gamergate and gender politics. My comment was that recent ideological editing has led to a bunch of drama acts. For example, when I described Ched as being obnoxiously authoritative, it was because he went to another user's talk page promising death and thunder, pointing out his ban hammer. That's just stupid, Ched. I'm not saying this as a "direct personal insult". It's stupid because if you approach people in a hostile way and talk down to them, all you do is provoke hostility and bruise that person's pride, which is likely to make them fight. Which maybe is what you want because then you'll have a good citation to ban them over.

In any case, I didn't think that MarkBernstein or his dramatics counted as "Gamergate or gender politics, broadly construed", but I guess broadly construed allows, well, whatever you like as far as interpretation goes. You guys didn't contact me over it and I imagine nobody else was concerned because, in essence, I encouraged Thargor to not get wrapped up in so much pointless drama if it doesn't benefit him somehow. If that's a violation it's probably worthy of a notification at most, and since I received none, I'm going to assume Ched and Gamaliel are only being dramatic.

This bureaucracy you parade as law is silly, guys. It's more of a parade than a system and it seems like the people who function the best in it are those most willing to publicly and tragically fall on their swords around the clock. I guess because "personal insults" is grounds for banning people, so it's politically beneficial to act dramatic? YellowSandals (talk) 20:37, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

Statement by Liz

I think there has been too much focus on restrictions on "opening and noticeboard discussions or enforcement requests related to MarkBernstein" and not "all edits and discussion regarding User:MarkBernstein". As much as Bernstein seems to at times push the envelope, it is even more irritating to me to see the endless complaining about Bernstein on article talk pages, noticeboards and user talk pages which is completely out of proportion to his editing behavior. And considering that Bernstein has a blog where subjects like Misplaced Pages and GamerGate are discussed, I believe that even if for some reason Bernstein received an indefinite block from editing, these complaints about him would continue. I realize that topic bans should be honored but equally, if not more, important is to "comment on contributions, not contributors" and that is all that this editing restriction is meant to enforce.

I also don't see that refraining from commenting upon one other editor or not seeking sanctions against him is an onerous burden to bare when the primary activity here is building an encyclopedia. Likewise, it doesn't appear to me to be stigmatizing and if Thargor Orlando, Mark Bernstein or DHeyward believe it to be and they just can't continue editing Misplaced Pages without discussing each other, they can appeal this editing restriction in six months. However, I don't see that such comments and actions are essential or constructive. Liz 14:55, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

Result of the appeal by Thargor Orlando

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

• My suggestion is that everyone put down the shovels, stop digging, accept the current restrictions, and edit productively in areas where you're not restricted. Furthering this situation is more likely to lead to extended blocks than it is to any sort of "ok, go do what you want" result. It is typical that DR solutions begin with less harsh restrictions; but, if that fails then more drastic restrictions will be put in place to ensure a less disruptive atmosphere on the project. If after a period of time (months, not hours) there's evidence that proper behavior can be adhered to, perhaps discuss it with an admin. active in that particular area. In other words: I suggest you take your ball and go play in another yard - before we take the ball away all together. — Ched :  ?  19:37, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

question Would it help if the wording were changed from "WP:TBAN" to "WP:IBAN"? — Ched :  ?  20:46, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

note I don't believe that Gamaliel's solution is intended to mean that DHeyward and Orlando must not interact with each other, but rather "both" must avoid MB. I've seen no indication that there are any issues with DHeyward and Orlando interactions. — Ched :  ?  20:53, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

further notes FWIW, we are into the weekend now. With that in mind, I'm not going to rush to judgement here. Several points:

• I am not inclined to unilaterally vacate the findings of another admin. (logged here)
• There seem to be a variety of views in the above thread (here}, and an even wider view in the statements above that.
• It always amazes me when people get anywhere near topics that have resulted in things like Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/GamerGate after such a difficult situation has been dealt with, although it shouldn't be surprising when terms like "collateral damage" and "shrapnel" are found in the aftermath.
• I don't think that under normal operating procedures that either Thargor Orlando or DHeyward would be facing anything beyond a "suggestion", and understand the "WTH did I do" attitude. Still, given the atmosphere surrounding "all things considered" mantra - I do agree it is best if both editors were separated from all things related to MarkBernstein.

With all that said, I'll think on things over the weekend, and hopefully find helpful input from other uninvolved folks here when I get back. — Ched :  ?  14:42, 14 March 2015 (UTC)

• Ched's comment pretty much hits the nail on the head. Under normal conditions, we wouldn't be thinking about sanctions like this, but nothing about gamergate has been normal thus far. Considering everything that's happened and the obvious bad blood between the parties—for which both sides bear equal responsibility—I think forcing them to keep their distance is in the best interests of the encyclopaedia, even if it's not strictly "fair" or "just". I recommend DH/TO and MB abide by the restriction even if they think it's unfair, and perhaps edit something else for a while, and if it becomes clear in a few weeks that things have settled down, we can look again. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 16:04, 14 March 2015 (UTC)

HistoryofIran

This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning HistoryofIran

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

Parishan (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 12:20, 14 March 2015 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

HistoryofIran (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Armenia-Azerbaijan 2 :

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

User:HistoryofIran for a long time has been displaying an aggressive belligerent approach to editing Misplaced Pages articles dealing with the history of Iran and the Caucasus which has also prompted him on several occasions to edit-war, as well as resort to incivility in relation to other users.

Despite being placed on 1RR and civility supervision back in October 2013, this user continues to edit in the exact same manner that has earned him this restriction.

1RR restriction violated at Paykar Khan Igirmi Durt: , (he claimed reverting vandalism, but later admitted on the talkpage that it was not vandalism), Atropatene: , .

Typical examples of violating WP:CIVILITY include him defining good-faith edits that he disagrees with as 'vandalism' and the contributors as 'vandals' who are out to 'annoy hard-working contributors such as ': , , , addressing users in a disrespectfully informal manner ('dude') , getting extremely personal instead of addressing issues raised due to his edit-warring , and making other kinds of patronising, condescending and offensive remarks in edit summaries: , , , . Interestingly, even the information supported by reliable sources such as Encyclopedia Iranica is not only removed, but referred to as 'vandalism' , accompanied with an inappropriate comment in the edit summary.

After being warned for incivility once , he persisted in making sarcastic references to the user's 'poor feelings' in every message he addressed to them for the duration of the discussion (even if the incilivity issue was not further addressed), to the point of turning it into the focal point of the entire discussion: , .

I would like admins to pay attention to the aggressive confrontational language that the user permits himself in a discussion: , , . One can see that the other user did a very good job remaining civil until the end, hence HistoryofIran's reaction along the lines of phrases such as 'facepalm', 'your broken English' and 'understood?' was completely unprovoked.

In violation of WP:OWN, he refers to articles as 'his own' and uses his experience editing Misplaced Pages as an argument in favour of his version: .

I also suggest that admins take note of the manner in which this user refers to fellow contributors and to his own role in bringing about Misplaced Pages at the very top of his talk page: . While I appreciate the efforts of those who genuinely try to contribute to improving the content of articles on Misplaced Pages, I do not believe that they should be blinded by glory at the site of many barnstars that other users award them and use their active participation in the project as an excuse to bring others down.

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)

The user was previously placed on 1RR restriction, supervised editing and civility supervision and is aware of that .

Keeping in mind that this user has been blocked eight times in the past two years (including three times in the past year after being placed on the aforementioned restrictions, most recently a few weeks ago) for a period between 24 and 72 hours, mainly for edit-warring, and vows to continue to 'revert a lot of stuff' in the future, I suggest an indefinite ban, as I consider this user's attitude unacceptable and unconstructive in improving the quality of Misplaced Pages articles, especially if he fails at the very first thing which makes a discussion productive: simple polite communication.

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Discussion concerning HistoryofIran

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by HistoryofIran

I find it funny, you researched so much about me, yet you didn't research the results of what i said in articles such as the Malik-Shah page. That is called lying and which shows that you're really trying hard to have me blocked for no reason - me, a user who has contributed so much to this site (374 articles created, 35 templates created, 168 categories created, 35 portals created and manyyyyyyyy articles expanded. Not trying to use this as an excuse, but just letting you guys know), just because of.. well who knows? personal revenge/hatred? I don't know, I just find this kind of random that you're suddenly reporting me and not even doing it the right way. Anyway, about the whole Malik-Shah issue (and constantly accusing me of being heavily rude when it comes to discussing), here is what it resulted to: . With that "problem" hopefully fixed, let's move to the next one. "One can see that the other user did a very good job remaining civil until the end, hence HistoryofIran's reaction along the lines of phrases such as 'facepalm', 'your broken English' and 'understood?' was completely unprovoked." Seriously? if a admin is reading this, please take a look on the links and a look on the Malik-Shah article, because what I am reading is not true and I'm sure you will understand. He is making me look like the villain, which he is doing this whole report, which I will get to.

By the way, If you are going to report about such things, then show all of it instead of half of it.

About the Paykar Khan Igirmi Durt article: I find it funny, he mentioned that I claimed vandalism (which I apologized for - because I am (well, I was) constantly reverting vandalism I wrongly accused him of being one, which was completely stupid by me) yet he accused me of "bad-faith editing" and still haven't apologized for it. Isn't that double standards? Anyway, I don't get why he mentioned that, since that issue ended when he showed me sources which proved that he was right (which he didn't first time but just randomly slammed some information on it, or else I would never have reverted it in the first place). Furthermore, how is "dude" a negative word? It is a normal word used every day? (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/dude) I find it funny that he is trying to make a deal out every word I use. It seems like "dude" is bad a word, but accusing one of "bad-faith editing" and abusing old issues without showing what really happened is normal. Furthermore, while we were discussing in the talk page of the article, I kept telling you to stop turning this into, well, a "personal discussion" (if that makes sense), yet you continued, which I don't know why, what have I done? I apologized (while you didn't) and agreed with what you said when you finally showed me sources in the end (which you should have done in the start).

"Interestingly, even the information supported by reliable sources such as Encyclopedia Iranica is not only removed, but referred to as 'vandalism' , accompanied with an inappropriate comment in the edit summary." Great, once again you're not showing everything. Yes, the source states that the Safavids were Azeris, but does not mention their ancestors were Azeris, which the user wrote on the article (which means that he was falsifying information), which was the reason I reverted it. As I said, you're not using this kind of information right and are trying to use it against my favor by doing so. I don't get what you're trying to gain: you're trying to block a user who is barely active (and may be quitting because he is busy) and has done so much on this site by falsifying (not really falsifying (or maybe it is?), but I can't really think of a better word that fits better, I should go to bed) information about him?

"Keeping in mind that this user has been blocked eight times in the past two years (including three times in the past year after being placed on the aforementioned restrictions, most recently a few weeks ago) for a period between 24 and 72 hours, mainly for edit-warring, and vows to continue to 'revert a lot of stuff' in the future, I suggest an indefinite ban, as I consider this user's attitude unacceptable and unconstructive in improving the quality of Misplaced Pages articles, especially if he fails at the very first thing which makes a discussion productive: simple polite communication."

Yes, and you have been blocked 4 times? so what? so you should get blocked for not telling everything about the stuff which you brought up? "Simple polite communication"?, as I said before, you were the one who wanted to create a big and unnecessary issue in the Paykar Khan article, while I kept telling that we should focus on the subject, which you kept getting away from. "After being warned for incivility once , he persisted in making sarcastic references to the user's 'poor feelings' in every message he addressed to them for the duration of the discussion (even if the incivility issue was not further addressed), to the point of turning it into the focal point of the entire discussion: , ." Not really, as I said, I was trying to the discuss with you about the subject, yet you kept targeting words such as "dude" and kept trying to change the subject by trying to turn it into a hostile discussion, which I kept telling you that you shouldn't do and that you should focus on the subject instead. You aren't using this information neutrally, but using it all against my favor by changing what happened to make me look like the villain. About the "poor feelings" thing, as I said, you kept targeting my words and acting oversensitive yet you yourself accused me of something too, but unlike me you didn't apologize.

This is what annoys me the most: "and vows to continue to 'revert a lot of stuff"'. I didn't really say that - you're missing the details once again and are trying to change information to use it against my favor. What I said was "When I get back I will probably have to revert a lot of stuff since these annoying vandals appear on the articles i have created/expanded literally every day." What problem is there with that? It's not like i will go, in your own words, on a "bad faith editing" campaign, but remove edits such as this one removed by a well known user . There are actually many respected users who agrees with me in these cases, take a look here for example . Many people know that I help/expand (well, actually "helped" since I am not really active anymore) many Misplaced Pages articles, and not one who does "bad faith editing". Anyway, even if it said that i wanted to go on a "bad faith editing" campaign (which I would never do, of course), that wouldn't mean anything either since words means nothing compared to real action.

"and making other kinds of patronising, condescending and offensive remarks in edit summaries: , , ,". Once again, you're not posting all of it. The first in the first link is a person who usually copies information from various places and then copies it to a article, making much of the information having broken English. The second one was just one of the 100th random users who put unsourced information, which is constantly reverted by me and other users, which annoyed me, but I guess saying "omg" (oh my god) when a article is constantly the target of vandalism is wrong, just like using the word "dude" was in your opinion somehow wrong. About the third one: He is the same person mentioned in the first link, where I said that he usually copies information from various places and then copies it to a article, making much of the information having broken English. Which is against the rules, which means I didn't do anything wrong.--HistoryofIran (talk) 01:25, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

I'm sorry but I really think you're missing something then, in case you didn't see it, I have answered everything he has written about and pretty much proved him wrong. "Who's of much use to the encyclopedia regardless of topic."? I have done so much for this site (which I posted above) yet I am not to any use? Can a admin properly investigate this please? --HistoryofIran (talk) 11:11, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

moved here from wrong section by Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:30, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

I don't really have the energy/will to discuss about this anymore, I have written what I could, a topic ban is fine (although not the cleverest idea either when I have done so much in that kind of topic), I am not going to be editing for some months/years anyway because I have kind of lost interest in this site, but I enjoyed my time here and if I will ever return, it would be in a long time (where I would expand Football articles instead). To an admin reading (or who have read) all the information which have been written here: Although I am most likely not going to return, at least topic ban me then, but not infinitive ban, it would be sad leaving Misplaced Pages like that. Right now, it seems like Parishan managed to fool everyone and I feel like no one have properly investigated what I have written, but oh well. If you did what I asked, that would be great (or you could also don't do anything, but it seems like my words mean nothing compared to Parishan who is immaturely abusing information against my favor, which makes absolutely no since, oh well. Consider this the last message from me. --HistoryofIran (talk) 11:04, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

Statement by Rhoark (uninvolved)

My gestalt impression of HistoryOfIran is someone unable to deal with content disputes in a constructive manner. Two elements of their statement however have merit. Firstly, the word "dude" is innocuous. Secondly, @Ahendra: is indeed introducing large amounts of grammatical gobbledygook to article space. An administrator should probably evaluate whether there is a competence problem. It's possible HistoryOfIran could learn better dispute resolution in an area they are less passionate about, so I endorse a topic ban. Rhoark (talk) 02:36, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

Statement by (username)

Result concerning HistoryofIran

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

• Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see any reason not to indef HistoryofIran and be done with it. I'd be all right with an indefinite topic ban from the AA topic area on top of that, but it seems like this isn't an editor who's of much use to the encyclopedia regardless of topic. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 07:26, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

MarkBernstein (2)

Request concerning MarkBernstein

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

Starke Hathaway (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 22:52, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

User against whom enforcement is requested

MarkBernstein (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/GamerGate (discretionary sanctions):

Dreadstar: "Due to your continued comments about other editors , I'm imposing upon you a 90-day ban on all edits about, and all pages related to, (a) GamerGate, (b) any gender-related dispute or controversy, (c) people associated with (a) or (b), all broadly construed per Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/GamerGate."

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. 15 March MarkBernstein links to an article on his personal blog. The article contains discussion of gamergate. His comment regarding "Sea Lions of Misplaced Pages" also refers to the gamergate controversy.

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

1. 3 Jan Block for prior violation

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

It seems clear by now that this editor has no intention of abiding by this topic ban. -Starke Hathaway (talk) 22:53, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

It's not at all clear to me why MarkBernstein expects to be given latitude to violate his topic ban on a talk page when DungeonSiegeAddict510 (who is subject to the same topic ban as MarkBernstein) was blocked for a month for little more than writing the letters "kia" on a talk page. It's not as though MarkBernstein would be unaware of this as he commented in support of that very enforcement action. I would also respectfully suggest to MarkBernstein that the "hounding" will stop when he stops violating his topic ban.

I am very aware that I face the possibility of retaliatory sanctions for bringing this action, especially in light of the difference in the level of scrutiny applied to editors who bring actions here depending on whether they seem to fall on one side or the other of a particular controversy-- compare the treatment of EncyclopediaBob, who was indefinitely blocked for being a sock after bringing an enforcement action against NorthBySouthBaranof despite no one at any point adducing evidence of such, with the absolute lack of any scrutiny of PetertheFourth, a self-admitted SPA, when he brought the aforementioned enforcement action against DungeonSiegeAddict510. It is becoming increasingly evident that the rules are not being applied evenly to those who are perceived to be pro- or anti-gamergate, but I'll risk not being able to edit any longer on the possibility that this isn't in fact true. -Starke Hathaway (talk) 00:30, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

@TheRedPenOfDoom:@Masem: Has it not occurred to you that the words "Masem's talk" in fact refer to Masem's talk page, rather than some shadowy lecture he's given to people you call Gamergaters? Indeed, if you look "below the reply" linked by TheRealVordox, you find... links to discussions on Masem's talk page about sourcing. I suggest you redact, and an apology would not go amiss. -Starke Hathaway (talk) 11:40, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

Discussion concerning MarkBernstein

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by MarkBernstein

An editor left a pointer on my talk page to a satirical piece he had written read, concerning this very page.I complimented him and pointed him to something I'd written on the same topic. It’s an essentially social interactionm and considerable latitude is allowed and necessary on talk pages.

The topic of my piece, incidentally, is not Gamergate, but Misplaced Pages's Arbitration Committee and it's recent ruling on my own Arbitration Committee Request for Clarification. I think it not unreasonable that PeterTheFourth, who has been editing Misplaced Pages since December, would assume that he might mention my own ARCA request on my talk page. Why not, if it's a topic of mutual interest, and where else shall he mention it? Of course, Starke Hathaway knows better from his vast experience of editing Misplaced Pages since...December. But Starke has one advantage: his first Misplaced Pages edit outside his own talk page was a statement for ArbCom.

Ought I to have replied to PeterTheFourth by email? Perhaps. But Misplaced Pages policy encourages discussion of Misplaced Pages editing on wiki, and generally discourages such discussion off-wiki. Besides, we don’t all have 4chan, 8chan, KotakuInAction, and WikiInAction to use for our discussions!

Wikipedians might also give some thought to how this unremittingly vindictive hounding looks out there, out in the real world. So, please take your time with the WP:BOOMerang here, because it'll reinforce my argument so effectively.

Have I been critical of ArbCom and of Misplaced Pages? Yes, I surely have. Have I laughed at Misplaced Pages's follies? Sure: someone has to! And once you see how funny this is, Starke is quite correct: it’s hard to stop. Still, WP:MOMHESLOOKINGATMEFUNNY is not a thing.@PeterTheFourth: MarkBernstein (talk) 23:25, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

@EvergreenFir: I believe Misplaced Pages links are nofollow to deter spamming, so they're hard to see in my logs. And, if traffic statistics for my Misplaced Pages talk page itself is available to me, I have no idea how to find it. But, seriously, Misplaced Pages traffic is inconsequential at this point. This little satire has already been retweeted by 34 writers; they have among them 209,000 followers. We've had plenty of people dropping by from Facebook. I've got my little regular audience, which has its own sort of influence. And this is for a little light Sunday satire. I don't care about Misplaced Pages traffic. It's called making a point. There’s another name for what it’s called: “winning.” Give it a rest. I have explained why I link: unlike Gamergate, I don’t whisper about my opponents behind their back, I don’t pretend to believe they're gay or practitioners of strange sex rituals, I don't call them prostitutes or send them pictures of dead dogs or of their dead sisters. If I have something to say about you, I'll say it to your face and I'll show you the link, and I'll accept your rebukes. MarkBernstein (talk) 03:34, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

@TheRedPenOfDoom: I’m sorry to disagree with you here, but you're mistaken in calling the calling the decision “insipid.” Give ArbCom credit: the clarification was not bland, and adding Lena Dunham was about as spicy as you can ask. You couldn't make this stuff up. MarkBernstein (talk) 03:34, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

@Rhoark: I agree with the general sentiment, but you're wrong in detail. I cannot be a valuable contributor, in light of an inexplicable and absurd topic ban which extends as far as the eye can see -- to every living woman (except maybe to right-wing extremists), to every gay, lesbian, and gender-queer person, and to every topic the tea party declares to be a controversy and which somehow impinges gender, which is to say the human condition, broadly construed. But, in point of fact, I'd wager that my writing of the past eight weeks will do more to shape the Encyclopedia than my work of the previous two decades, broadly construed -- and that work arguably includes those tabs at the top of this page and the breadcrumbs that guide you to its antecedents. MarkBernstein (talk) 03:34, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

@Gamaliel: Wise, prudent, and judicious. I do think, though, that encouraging off-site coordination is still disparaged by policy, that in theory (if not in the real world into which I am accused of having injected myself upstream on the page) we're encouraged to discuss Misplaced Pages here and openly, not elsewhere and in secret. Correct me if I'm mistaken -- and also correct the guidance we give to new editors, some of whom might (on rare occasions like this) actually be genuine new editors. Grizzled experts like NBSF and myself find these matters puzzling, while outsiders look on aghast and wonder what Misplaced Pages can possibly be thinking. In fact, I'm pretty sure the banned veteran editors who don’t find the margins of discretionary sanctions puzzling fall into two categories: (a) those who are now editing through new accounts, borrowed accounts, or sock puppets, and (b) those who have retired completely. MarkBernstein (talk) 03:34, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

@Bosstopher: I’m not willing today to ask for the favor of having what should be mine by right, or to beg this audience to do what they ought to do despite unreasonable and unreasoning malice. But do feel free to ask on my behalf if you like. MarkBernstein (talk) 15:48, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

@Coldacid: et al: The satire to which PeterTheFourth directed my attention is, of course, an allegorical parable of sea lions with a beachball. My mother told me that when someone gives you something to read, it's polite to thank them and to remark on its content, showing that you read it and appreciated it. Your mother may have disagreed, but Misplaced Pages welcomes people from different cultures and backgrounds. Or it used to. MarkBernstein (talk) 15:48, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

@Gamaliel: Ah yes, topic bans. That would be

• The indefensible topic ban for Gamergate imposed by that witty fellow who, in doing so, so far forgot himself as to call me a motherfucker?
• Or would that be its new extension to Campus Rape, Lena Dunham, and points East?
• Or perhaps the bankshot extension newly proposed here, which topic-bans reference to off-wiki satires of Misplaced Pages decisions on gender that were inspired by Misplaced Pages's foolish handling of Gamergate?
• Or perhaps the topic ban should apply to my referring to anyone who writes about my writing that ridicules Misplaced Pages decisions on gender which were inspired (and I use the term loosely) by Misplaced Pages’s craven appeasement of Gamergate?

Perhaps I should not use links? Does the topic ban also include semi-colons? One of my better-known soundbites holds that “The link is the most significant new form of punctuation since the invention of the comma,” after all. I know it's unfair, my having a place to write and an audience and a modest facility with words other than motherfucker and brony; perhaps I should be required to write especially badly to even the playing field? Or to pretend never to have heard of Donna Haraway or Michel Foucault or Judith Butler.

Now if you want to take some pictures of the fascinating witches who put the scintilating stiches in the britches of the boys who put the powder on the noses on the faces of the ladies of the harem of the court of King Caractacus (or Misplaced Pages’s credibility)...

... You're too late! Because they've just... Passed... By!

The complaint seeks simply to wield the topic ban in an unending quest to reclaim a failed plan to use Misplaced Pages as part of another failed PR offensive. No harm or disruption could have been caused by briefly alluding to this satire on my talk page, and in any case no one can possibly know where the ban ends. This complaint lacks the semblance of good faith.

Or perhaps we're talking about a different topic ban entirely? I seem to recall a very recent topic ban on this very subject. I myself have not brought a complaint since then against either Xxxxx Batman or Xxxx Xxxx Robin. But here we are already, back again in our old familiar haunts, brought not by Batman nor by Robin (because that would be wrong!), but – what a coincidence! – by one of The Merry Men, with the usual crew alongside to tell us everything we need to know about sea lions. MarkBernstein (talk) 15:48, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

@Squiggleslash: You are welcome to file one on my behalf. MarkBernstein (talk) 16:46, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

@HJMitchell: I did not refer to any editor; I was topic-banned, apparently, for alluding indirectly to the well-known fact of collusive editing, which was the topic of the article under discussion. Here, I only violated my topic ban if the broad construction of GamerGate extends to mentioning my own satirical jeremiads against Misplaced Pages's recent turn to embrace anti-intellectualism and sexism. Unlike some of your correspondents, I am indeed engaged with the real world, and my interest here is to (a) save the project from mistakes which are -- correctly in my opinion -- bringing it into widespread contempt, or (b) if that is impossible, to warn scholars and writers of systemic biases and distortions in order to minimize the harm it does, especially when used as a weapon by wrong-doers. Yes, I could be (and have been) of great service to Misplaced Pages: when you look back on this, you will find that my contribution to Gamergate may in fact have been crucial to preventing irremediable harm to the project. I think there is no question that the real world, having examined the question, shares my opinion. MarkBernstein (talk) 18:28, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

@Masem: I’m responsible for what I write on my weblog, and for what I publish in journals and magazines. I’m not responsible for satire that someone else writes on their weblog, even if PeterTheFourth tells me about it. I'm not disparaging you at the moment; it appears that some other people are, but like the flowers that bloom in the spring (tra-la!) that has nothing to do with the case. MarkBernstein (talk) 20:17, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

@Ched: is simply mistaken in thinking that links from pages like this page have any meaningful impact at all on Google search results or on web traffic. This page, for example, has opted out entirely from the Google index, and also instructs search engines and other automata not to follow outbound links. You can verify this yourself by inspecting the HTML -- something anyone competent in the area would have checked first. In any case, even if every reader of this page followed every link to my weblog, it would not benefit me particularly -- save that people who are interested in knowing more of my work in this area might do so. That’s the point of links. My weblog has no advertising and I’m perfectly happy with my organic audience, the fruit of a decade of writing. In any case, if I were seeking traffic from Wikipedians, I have signally failed: at no time in recent months have wikipedia servers figured meaningfully in my server logs. The Guardian? Yes. Think Progress? Sure. Der Standard? Check. Social Text? Surprisingly so! Facebook and Twitter* have been prominent in referrer logs, which is unusual and interesting. But Misplaced Pages? Meh. MarkBernstein (talk)

Statement by Johnuniq

My suggestion would be that Starke Hathaway (150 edits; half on Gamergate) focus on improving the encyclopedia rather than examining every comment at MarkBernstein's talk. Such activity is not healthy for the project. Johnuniq (talk) 00:23, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

Statement by PeterTheFourth

I do not at all understand how the reply to my (unsolicited, entirely spontaneous) comment is a violation of anything, especially given that he hasn't even mentioned Gamergate in his reply. This is honestly just more evidence of the ongoing harassment of MarkBernstein. I feel atrocious in my unintentional involvement in the ongoing campaign to drive away a well-spoken, prolific editor whose contributions have greatly enriched Misplaced Pages. PeterTheFourth (talk) 00:47, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

As a completely unrelated aside: I did not author the piece I linked, although I do endorse it. PeterTheFourth (talk) 01:30, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

@HJ Mitchell: Hello! I appreciate that there's much consternation over MarkBernstein's actions, but he's fairly blameless in this particular correspondence- he replies to my (trout-worthy?) link with another, a brief, silly interlude in his regular editing to link to his own feelings on ArbCom's decisions. You might accuse me of baiting him into something, or similar, and I'd accept anything coming my way re:my flouting of policy- please don't punish him for being polite enough to reply to my comment with anything other than 'I CAN'T TALK ABOUT THAT GO AWAY'. PeterTheFourth (talk) 22:34, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

Statement by Bosstopher

Agree with Gamaliel that minor borderline banvios like this one, YellowSandal's and DSA's, are not worth banning anyone over. All this request will do is cause more drama. Is there some way we can set a 1RResque limit to things of one AE request against Mark a week? There are approximately 10 billion admins watching his talk page, so if he does anything too horrific after the week's AE request is done, one of them can just sort it out without an enforcement request. Currently a huge proportion of this enforcement page is Mark-related, and all it's done is create layer upon layer of pointless drama. Bosstopher (talk) 01:19, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

Upon thinking about things in a much less sleep deprived state, I have come up with an ingenious solution that will satisfy everyone (although it probably wont). Per User:EvergreenFir's comments, Mark should be topic banned from linking to his blog/external links. @MarkBernstein: While Dreadstar's not going to remove your topic ban, have you considered asking him to change it so that it's just a straight up Gamergate topic ban like the ones they used in the good old days? That would solve a lot of the issues you're facing with being confused over what you're actually allowed to edit. Bosstopher (talk) 14:13, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

Statement by Rhoark

I think it would be great if MB would go back to being the valuable contributor of a few years ago instead of a SPA in the area of grousing about ARBCOM, but this filing is a waste of everyone's time. Rhoark (talk) 01:39, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

Statement by EvergreenFir

I am getting a bit weary of seeing Mark's name here. This isn't a huge violation, but Mark knows full well the terms of his tban and continues to link to his blog anyway. If this doesn't result in a block, this should be a final warning. Mark needs to stop linking his blog (generating traffic and views) and needs to stop all references to GG. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 01:41, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

MarkBerstein says, "I don't care about Misplaced Pages traffic. It's called making a point. There’s another name for what it’s called: “winning.” Give it a rest. I have explained why I link..." This is exactly what I'm talking about. Mark knows exactly what he's doing, that it violates his topic ban, that he's making a WP:POINT, and doesn't care. There is no good faith to assume here. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 11:19, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

Statement by TheRedPenOfDoom

Simply more evidence of the ArbCom's disastrous miscalculation that their insipid decision was something that would in any way limit disruption of Misplaced Pages rather than provide a blueprint for sustained organized disruption.

Gamergate Ahoy! Keep them socks coming! -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 01:57, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

Do we need to open another ARCA to see if by "broadly construed" ArbCom merely meant all Pinnipeds, or if they are inclined to include all ocean bound mammals? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 04:13, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

@Masem: ", I do not side with GG " is complete and utter bullocks. You cannot go a week without making another 10000 word push on why we cannot follow the absolutely highest quality reliable sources because they "are not fair to gamergate." -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 03:47, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

Masem, you have given talks to the gamergaters on how to edit wikipedia. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 04:30, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

Statement by Strongjam

Can we speedily close this and just get on with working on the encyclopedia? The linked to diff isn't worth this much drama. Starke Hathaway is simply mistaken in their believe that DSA510 was held to a higher standard. He obliquely violated his topic ban here, more directly here, and I think by accident here. None of that was deemed disruptive enough and nobody bothered to file an AE request. If Starke Hathaway thinks MarkBernstein is being held to a lower standard they are simply mistaken. Strongjam (talk) 02:33, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

@Gamaliel: With regards to DHeyward this is what you're looking for. — Strongjam (talk) 17:42, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

@Masem: To be clear, are you talking about the link that MarkBernstein posted, or the link that was posted on his talk page? — Strongjam (talk) 20:10, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

@Masem: Thanks for the clarification. In that case I think PeterTheFourth should be trouted. Links that contain personal attacks on editors are not appropriate for linking to on WP. — Strongjam (talk) 20:27, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

@HJ Mitchell: To jog your memory

• You blocked DHeyward for BLP violations and FORUMing previously.

And recently:

• Cutting up a quote to put words in an authors mouth.

I considered filing an AE request about the last two, but decided to leave it considering how much drama we've had here.

— Strongjam (talk) 22:26, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

@DHeyward: turning

• "Far from women and people of color serving as a shield for white men, it’s white male journalists who — slowly, imperfectly, all too infrequently — often act as a sadly necessary shield for women and people of color who take the risk of speaking out and get blasted for it."

Into

• white male journalists ... who take the risk of speaking out....

Is not OK. It changes the meaning of the quote.

— Strongjam (talk) 15:58, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

Statement by Starship.paint

Is anyone reading what @EvergreenFir: has written?

There are two scenarios here. Either posting a link to his personal blog about GamerGate violates the topic ban, or it does not. Could we make it explicitly clear? If it violates the topic ban, at the very minimum MarkBernstein should be given a final warning, if not harsher punishment. There is another AE request up above, now closed, regarding MarkBernstein posting a link to his blog. He should clearly know better. If it does not violate the topic ban, let's just inform MarkBernstein so he can continue posting such links as and when or wherever he likes.

And has MarkBernstein's Sea Lions of Misplaced Pages comment escaped scrutiny as well, even if linking his blog post is permissible? Sea Lions are clearly a reference to GamerGate. MarkBernstein has already said he's winning. That's because we are letting him get away with it. starship.paint ~ ¡Olé! 13:07, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

@Liz: And a remark about sea lions is off-wikipedia? Umm, it was posted on his talk page ... and he chose to reference pretty much the most prominent (19 March EDIT: one single?) animal associated with GamerGate. starship.paint ~ ¡Olé! 01:23, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

@Liz: - as for other animals associated with GamerGate, honestly I don't know of any. I only know GamerGate sponsored a sea lion, nothing about other animals. Their other mascot is a girl, I believe - but I'm not a GamerGate expert, yeah. My language (the most prominent) was slightly imprecise as well, sorry. starship.paint ~ ¡Olé! 00:35, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

Statement by coldacid

@Starship.paint: I think without further clarification, Mark Bernstein should be free to link his own blog on his user or user talk pages, but without reference to areas for which he is under an active topic ban. Simply linking his posts, fine. Commentary like "sea lions of Misplaced Pages" (a clear reference to GamerGate), not fine.

In addition, as EvergreenFir points out, this behaviour from Bernstein is getting needlessly WP:POINTy by now. Yes, there are other editors gunning for him, but the disruption wouldn't be nearly as bad if he didn't keep tiptoeing the line in front of them, and pouring fuel on the flames of this drama. // coldacid (talk|contrib) 14:58, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

Statement by Masem

Noting that the link put on Mark's page by Peter includes things that call me out as an editor directly (and incorrectly as well, I do not side with GG so calling me a sea lion is flat out wrong), I would have just considered Mark's reply simply needed a trout, a slip of the mind that would have gone through the cracks if people were not hounding him.

But the replies to this complaint show something more. I highlight this part of Gamaleil's statement below: If your aim is to edit an encyclopedia, you are welcome here. If your aim to be the Gamergate police cracking down on the SJWs, you are not. This needs to also work in the other direction - If one's aim here is to criticize and condemn GG, and fight to protect victims of GG (beyond what BLP requires us to do), that's the same problem that should not be welcomed on WP. And Mark's attitude here falls right into line with this. We're back at the neutrality issue that started the ArbCom case, that editors are too involved ideologically or emotionally that they are not editing in the expected behavior for a neutral, impartial encyclopedia, creating the battleground mentality that started the case. This idea works both ways (pro and anti-GG) - it's just easier to deal with the side that comes from pro-GG because they are the new/SPA accounts that have easier behavior to call out.

Again, I don't think this specific instance needs anything more than a warning to Mark (as well as others). But we need ArbCom to be clear that Misplaced Pages should not be considered a part of the larger GG battleground for either side, and that editors using WP to engage in that should be considered disruptive. --MASEM (t) 16:19, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

@Gamaliel: One post at the site is titled "Sea Lion Emeritus Masem is Not Animatronic. We Swear!" and goes to mock my discussion contributions. Now, being fully aware that Poe's law could be in play and we could be talking about a parody site, I'm also fully aware of the language that proponents on both sides of the issue write, and this is far from just being parody. --MASEM (t) 20:06, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

@Strongjam: That's from the link Peter posted to Mark's page. Not sure if that's the link Gamaliel was specifically talking about in that request. --MASEM (t) 20:16, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

@MarkBernstein: I don't doubt that that you have no hand involved in the link Peter gave, I read it that Gamaliel was looking for disparaging comments from that site (and if not, then we should be aware what type of commentary is at that cite). It was not my intention to claim that you wrote on that specific site, if that's how it came out which I apologize if that did. --MASEM (t) 20:31, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

@Gamaliel: As I noted, I thought you might have been talking about what that link is, which is not the case that I can see now. While the site directly does not involve Mark's actions, it's important to note his reply on Misplaced Pages that uses the language of site , which itself it mocking in tone, is part of his continued behavior problems. And we do sometimes redact links that are known to be sites that only engage in BLP violations as we would gross copyright violating sites. I would argue this one falls into that. --MASEM (t) 00:01, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

@Liz: The language of the standard sanction for GG (which I don't think Mark is under but I think should be considered the scope of that topic ban) includes not making any edit about Gamergate (doesn't make distinction about where on WP save for ArbCom). The language "Sea lions" in the context of Mark's reply to Peter is definitely about Gamergate. As I note, I see this as a troutable slip for the instance, but part of a larger behavior issue to consider. --MASEM (t) 00:19, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

The above addition by tRPoD about my participation () demonstrates the battleground attitude that still persists in the GG situation on WP today. I do not support any of the claimed GG goals or their approach, but I also don't support taking the tone that the press has taken in reporting GG when we are supposed to be neutral and impartial as an encyclopedia. That in no way makes me proGG, but this is unfortunately what (outside WP) the situation has become - if you don't side to speak up against GG, you must be supporting them. (and vice versa when talking about supporting GG). There are many many more sides to this (including a number of editors on WP that simply want a neutral article that recognizes the bias that the press has here and acknowledged in the previous RFC) There are editors like Mark that, based on their conversations, appear to only be here to condemn GG which will never get us to a neutral article. The attitude of a "us vs them" is a poisonious battleground mentality that needs to be stopped. --MASEM (t) 04:18, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

@TheRedPenOfDoom: Please show the diff of my contributions that are directing gamergaters how to edit WP. All my contributions on WP are in the open, and I've mentioned before the only interaction directly I've had with anyone proGG was a reddit message to briefly explain the issue with reliable sources. This is otherwise a personal attack, asserting that I'm leading GG to edit here, and a continuation of the battleground mentality to assume that I'm not "with" the side against GG. --MASEM (t) 04:36, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

Statement by DHeyward

With permission from uninvolved adminstrator, I only note that MarkBernstein uses a term of disparagement that was used with respect to Orlando Thargor and me. MarkBernstein has falsely accused me of offsite collusion and refuses to disclose his link (because it's false, I presume) but freely links and makes on-wiki comments on external sites that disparage other editors in violation of both his 90 day GamerGate topic ban and his indefinite interaction ban. My only request has been that he stop. Nothing tried so far seems to work. --DHeyward (talk) 16:33, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

Gamaliel Starship.paint addressed it above. I don't know exactly what a "sea lions of wikipedia" is but I've read the link, read how I was mentioned and I've read MarkBernstein's comment and that term is disparaging. Why he thinks it would be appropriate to use that term on Misplaced Pages to refer to editors is beyond me. And yes, it's a silly talk page comment. I'm sure everyone has made worse. But not by someone with same reputation, block, tban, iban, warnings and board discussions as MarkBernstein. And I'd prefer that if you are going to sanction or not, that you leave it as a recommendation. --DHeyward (talk) 20:10, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

Strongjam You are incorrect about Chu. You seem to have misunderstood Arthur Chu's whole point. You didn't even read the source before reverting and it was quite disheartening when you actually posted that you didn't read the article before you reverted and argued about it. The exact quote after telling us what you thought he said: "Self-reply.. I hate the slate website. Turns out you have to scroll down before it loads the rest of the article." -Strongjam Imagining what he said and reading what he said is not the same. --DHeyward (talk) 15:39, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

Strongjam As for Chu, his whole article is about how #NotYourShield was established to silence white, male defenders (journalists) from speaking out against GamerGate. He made the case that they are necessary voices. He also said they take great risk in speaking out against women and minorities (aka the #NotYourShield people) and too often stay silent. Your quote highlights it quite nicely. Yes, women and minorities take risks but that's not Chu's point in that article. It's all about his assessment that #NotYourShield was trying to silence white, male journalists that fear speaking out against #NotYourShield because of the potential backlash against them for speaking out against women and minorities. Your vision of what you want him to say is not what he said. In any case, there is nothing that I said that is a BLP or any other infraction though you may wish to rethink the prism you are viewing this through. --DHeyward (talk) 21:46, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

Statement by squiggleslash

You're going to keep getting these reports about every minor infraction MB may have committed as long as you make it clear there's a chance you'll act against him, and little chance those promoting the conflict will get sanctioned. And I say "You're going to keep getting" because you already are. The current gender controversies topic ban is itself an example.

• Repeal topic ban. It was never justified. (MB, maybe it'd help if you filed a formal appeal against it, or did you and I missed it?)
• Add Starke Hathaway to the TIBAN (is that a term?) that already applies between MB, Thargor Orlando, and DHeywood.

You can continue to do what you're doing, but it isn't working. You can do what the hoards of offsite trolls are trying to get you to do, but that's happened once already, Arbcom did what they wanted them to do, and, well, here we are. Not that anyone that's part of the Misplaced Pages establishment will ever admit it might, possibly, have been just a slight possible misjudgment, to sanction people trying to protect Misplaced Pages from trolls for edit warring. --Squiggleslash (talk) 16:40, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

Statement by Liz

Just so we are absolutely clear, this is about a link on MB's talk page to his website he offered in response to a comment by another editor. That's all, there was no discussion of GamerGate on a GG-related article or talk page? I'll admit that MB can be provocative but this "it can't go a week without an editor filing a complaint about Bernstein" routine is getting ridiculous. It borders on stalking behavior by the filing parties. The worst part is that it seems like this behavior will continue and they'll keep throwing metaphorical spaghetti at the wall until something sticks. Liz 21:01, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

It's a link to a website. And a remark about sea lions is off-wikipedia and ARBCOM didn't seem to care about off-wiki content when they came to their case FOFs and decisions. If they had included consideration of off-site harassment, the results of the case would have been quite different. And considering that DHeyward can't stop talking about Bernstein on multiple user talk pages, that seems like a much clearer violation of a tban/iban than posting a link to ones website on ones own user talk page.. Liz 00:54, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

Ched, I can't see exactly what you are objecting to. That Bernstein shared a link to his website to another editor on his own talk page? Do you seriously think this is about website traffic or publicity? Bernstein has been quoted in some national publications, I don't think sharing a link on a Misplaced Pages talk page has anything to do with notoriety. Does this mean anyone sharing a link to an off-site website or blog they are involved in in the context of a discussion is self-promoting? If so, I see a lot of user pages, including some admins, who share a link to their off-site websites.

I get that admins are tired of seeing GamerGate related incidents come to AN/I and AE. I think we all are. But can't you also see at this point that this is a war of attrition? If Bernstein receives a longer block, it won't be an end to these proceedings, those on one side of the dispute will just go on to the next active, outspoken editor who involves themselves in editing these articles. After all of the numerous topic bans and blocks, can't you see that it isn't a matter of a few bad apples? There will always be new editors coming to these article pages who see it as a battleground. Discretionary sanctions help but you can expect these problems to continue given the way the GamerGate case ended. Liz 01:25, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

starship.paint, first, the most prominent animal associated with GamerGate? Before I saw a link of the blog referred to which was posted by another editor on Bernstein's user talk page, I didn't know that there were any animals associated with this consumer revolt. What are the others? Secondly, I've seen the original cartoon about sea lions and it is about individuals who incessantly interrupt conversations with faux concerns, a behavior that doesn't seem specific to GamerGate but is about fruitless debates on the internet with people who are not listening to what you are saying and who continually raise objections. It applies as much to Misplaced Pages as an editing environment as it does to GamerGate. Finally, I see that I was incorrect, Bernstein did mention the term "sea lions" on his user talk page but the comment was primarily a link pointing to an off-Misplaced Pages blog post and, again, he was responding to another editor's use of the term. But my language was imprecise for which I apologize. Liz 15:19, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

Statement by NE Ent

Please impose the maximum duration siteban allowed by discretionary sanctions.

Apparently MarkBernstein is some kind of journalist / blogger / activist out there. Don't know, don't care. Here he's not here to build the encyclopedia; he here's for WP:SELFPROMOTION, WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS and make a WP:POINT, as evidenced by his talk page statement A project which punishes editors for defending the good names and reputations of living people from vicious Internet trolls does not deserve to survive.

Now, I generally don't worry about user / user talk pages unless it's disrupting the project.

ANI

See Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive877#Dreadstar, in which he reports Dreadstar called him a motherfucker; it's fair to say that fall short of the standards of WP:ADMINACCT, and as another editor once remarked NE Ent may be a lot of things, but an apologist for admin is not one of them. I'm also a veteran with 1K WQA and 2K ANI contributions and I've learned to look at what proceeded an event, and found Berstein suckered Dreadstar with I've no idea what Dreadstar means to say immediately above (other than he imagines himself to be right), but that doesn't matter. blah blah doubtless campus rape has supporters, too, and Dreadstar unfortunately fell for it, interpreting the comment as saying he supported rape. Of course, there's enough blah blah so Bernstein can act all innocent 'I never said you supported rape.' Note also how the portion of his comment his posted on ANI omits the "I've no idea what Dreadstar means to say immediately above (other than he imagines himself to be right), but that doesn't matter." beginning of the comment.

Notice also the statement "The topic ban itself is, in my view, neither just nor expedient. I do not raise that question here; I may raise it elsewhere." which begs the question why is it in the ANI thread if he's not raising it? The Mark Antony "Friends, Romans, countrymen, lend me your ears; I come to bury Caesar, not to praise him." shtick was clever when Shakespeare wrote Julius Caesar (play) but its transparently lame in 2015. After I close the turkey of a thread with Bernstein's suggested wording he then absurdly asks "If the intent was not to lift the ban, why adopt my proposed phrasing of rolling back to Sunday morning -- before the ban?". Therefore his proposed wording was to lift the ban which was not the subject of the ANI.

ARCA

Next came the "clarification request" which asked an obvious question, and served as a topic ban breaching WP:COATRACK 10 March Statement WP:SPAMLINKing Bernstein's own blog "benefit our pals," and more fodder for his off-wiki activities .

Emailabuse

Policy on email is WP:EMAILABUSE. NE Ent 02:18, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

Statement by (username)

Result concerning MarkBernstein

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

• Topic bans are supposed to prevent disruption, not create drama through hyperscrutiny and a resulting flood of complaints. Let me give you an example: Two days ago, YellowSandals violated his topic ban here. None of you editors constantly complaining about MarkBernstein made a peep about it, and obviously some of you saw it. I ignored it just like you did, and that's what you should also do here. (For the record, I felt the same about DungeonSiegeAddict510 and advised only a trouting in that case.) If your aim is to edit an encyclopedia, you are welcome here. If your aim to be the Gamergate police cracking down on the SJWs, you are not. Mark Bernstein is officially trouted - if there is such a thing - and advised to keep such chats off wiki whenever possible. Gamaliel (talk) 00:33, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

@MarkBernstein: "Policy says, discuss Misplaced Pages on Misplaced Pages unless there's a pressing, exceptional situation that makes discussion impossible." That exceptional situation would be your topic ban. Gamaliel (talk) 04:38, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

@MarkBernstein: If you object to the topic ban, you are welcome to appeal it in the appropriate forum. This is not the appropriate forum, but you are welcome to open another request challenging the topic ban on this page. Regardless of whatever grievance you may have, you are not free to violate the topic ban. I hope that is clear. Gamaliel (talk) 16:39, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

For the record, since the comment left by YellowSandals appeared to be a direct personal attack aimed at me - I chose to ignore it. Yes I saw it, but if I had blocked for that it would have given the perception of being retaliatory in nature. I'm not able to review the other things properly to add any more beyond that. — Ched :  ?  15:20, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

Huh. I thought he was talking about me and didn't block for the same reason. That's almost hilarious. Gamaliel (talk) 16:30, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

@DHeyward: Could you identify the admin? Thanks. Gamaliel (talk) 17:30, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

@DHeyward: Strongjam addressed the above question. I've read the link. Can you identify the disparaging comments? I feel like I'm missing something here. Gamaliel (talk) 18:04, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

• At some point, this all has to end. How many enforcement requests are we up to against Mark? How many warnings has he had? How many times has he been asked nicely to stop commenting on his opponents and comment on content instead? Probably more than any other editor in this topic area. This is the second time he's been topic-banned, and not the first time he's violated a topic ban. Yes, he is probably under more scrutiny than most editors in the topic area (though, while I don't condone one group of editors training their sights on another editor, it is MB's own actions that have led to that scrutiny), but at some point the question has to be: does the problem lie with a small army of editors filing enforcement requests (and even with admins issuing warnings and sanctions), or with a single editor who doesn't seem to want to heed advice, warnings, sanctions, or anything else? At this point, I think Mark has been extended all the rope that is reasonable and more, but has carried on regardless. I can't see how this is any different to the situation with the last topic ban (which was later lifted, although Mark was twice blocked and repeatedly warned for violating it), or to DSA510 (who similarly showed no inclination to separate himself from the topic area). What irks me most is that these editors aren't making good edits in the mainspace that are being met with frivolous enforcement requests, but politicking on talk pages and in the projectspace. I think Mark has the potential to be an incredibly valuable contributor (I think the same of DSA and several other 'problem editors' in the topic area), but his continued participation with regards to gamergate is not conducive to progress, and he has shown no inclination to change the way he participates. Given all of that, I recommend a one-month block, as with DSA510. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 17:52, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

• If there actually are disparaging comments at this link I support this action. As for the rest, there is plenty of blame to go around here, which is what makes this conflict so intractable. Both sides are holding themselves blameless while incessantly complaining about the other side. Gamaliel (talk) 18:04, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

• DHeyward obviously takes offence at the "Sea Lions of Misplaced Pages unite!" comment, which he seems to believe is directed at him; regardless of its intended recipient, it's not a constructive comment. It does nothing to make the project a better place and it does nothing to improve the encyclopaedia.

  Mark: You've been repeatedly asked to stop commenting on editors, or to put it another way to focus your energies on the encyclopaedia and not your opponents. Contrary to what you seem to believe, it is possible to believe in good faith that gamergate is not the root of all evil. It's also possible to criticise your conduct in good faith. I've never seen, for example, DHeyward or Thargor Orlando intentionally libel anyone, and I haven't seen you file an enforcement request against either of them for doing so. You didn't stop, and Dreadstar imposed a topic ban—you can disagree with it, but you're bound by it unless and until you successfully appeal it. And even that hasn't prompted you to refocus on the encyclopaedia. I don't want to block you, but everything else has been tried and still you persist; I'm wondering if you're trying to get blocked, quite frankly. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 22:07, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

• I concur with a lot of what you've said here. MarkBernstein obviously feels the topic ban is unjust and it appears to me that such feelings are prompting him to respond in a less than productive manner. I see that he has formally appealed the topic ban below, which I hope is a sign that he is channeling his energies in an appropriate direction that is more compatible with encyclopedia editing. Gamaliel (talk) 23:01, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
• IMO, this isn't about Gamergate, abuse directed at Zoe, TBAN, IBAN, or anything other than using Misplaced Pages as an SEO bump for markbernstein.org (linked many times in previous threads, often seen as rather than spelled out.) which gets that website a higher slot in google searches. Mark doesn't "attack" individual editors in the WP:NPA sense on wiki. He's cautious of his language, and intelligent in his presentations. He's able to do quality article work here. But riding the coattails of the Gamergate fiasco to promote a website isn't what we should be doing here. Yes, entire websites (ED, Wikipediocracy, and others) have plenty of martyrs (see Harry's link to WP:SBA above) who revel in any divisiveness on wiki. I also see that below. Mark (again) posts excerpts from an email, and I don't recall seeing permission from Dreadstar to do that. (although I did read an apology that Dreadstar offered ON-wiki for something he (Dreadstar) had said OFF-wiki, due to a possible mis-understanding of intent.) I always understood that posting email contents was not allowed, but once again so very close to the "lines" - it is done so without the headers, so I guess he gets a pass on that as well. Perhaps we could lift all restrictions everywhere. Perhaps we could block for WP:NOTHERE. It seems to me that this particular drama-monster has an insatiable appetite, - and me, personally - well I'm done "feeding" it. — Ched :  ?  23:51, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

@Masem: Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe this is the current practice here: We delete and forbid links directly to personal attacks, but we don't ban entire websites for such things. For example, if someone posted a link to an attack on me on Wikipediocracy (which happens there daily, it seems like), then I could demand its removal, but I can't demand removal of all links to Wikipediocracy anywhere on Misplaced Pages. So MB should not link to that particular blog post but is free to link to other entires. Gamaliel (talk) 23:13, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

@Masem: It's been pointed out to me that the blog post "Sea Lion Emeritus Masem is Not Animatronic. We Swear!" is not on Mark Bernstein's blog, but on a different blog not linked to or written by him. So what does this have to do with Mark Bernstein? Gamaliel (talk) 23:29, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

@Masem: Let's focus only on actions taken by Mark Bernstein here. There's enough drama to keep track of. Thanks. Gamaliel (talk) 23:34, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

@Bosstopher: That is an excellent solution, so of course no one will be satisfied. If we imposed such a ban, we should make it clear that it only applies to MB himself, so no one comes here demanding sanctions on MB if someone else drops a link on his user talk page. Gamaliel (talk) 23:19, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

Topic Ban Appeal: MarkBernstein

On Friday, March 6, Think Progress published an article by Lauren C. Williams describing how The ‘Five Horsemen’ Of Misplaced Pages Paid The Price For Getting Between Trolls And Their Victims.

For months, has offered a boxed section of articles in the media that discuss the Gamergate page. As this was a long investigative report on that very page, I proposed adding the new article that list. As I anticipated, GamerGate supporters teamed up to revert the change. Discussion followed on the talk page, as discussions do.

Two days later, I was topic-banned by @Dreadstar: under the standard AE sanctions.

The pertinent passage appears to be the following:

“It is fascinating that the particular group of editors who recently were so eager to cite Gamergate wikis, weblogs, and Breitbart are reluctant to inform newcomers to this article of this important new essay. Why would that be? There is no question that Lauren Williams’ study is the best examination of the Misplaced Pages scandal to appear to date. It is also very widely read. The Twitter stream for "Gamergate Misplaced Pages" is filled with references, it’s got 1700 Facebook shares, it’s generated secondary coverage in Slate .”

I had been asked not to criticize other editors on talk pages, but here I do not criticize or mention any editor: I allude to a pattern of collusive editing. Collusive editing is the subject of the article under discussion; it is natural and necesssary to discuss it in this context. The italicized question might be taken to allude to the insistent, relentless, perfervid POV pushing practiced by a coterie of editors on this page, abetted by a constantly-refreshed stream of socks and zombies working with expert admin assistance and supervision, in blatant and unchecked violation of WP:NPOV and WP:FLAT. Discussion of the application of policy to article and front-matter changes is not uncommon on talk pages.

Moreover, my assertion above is inarguably true, it is reliably sourced, and it reflects the overwhelming consensus of opinion of outside observers of Misplaced Pages’s Gamergate article: .

I responded to the topic ban with wry astonishment, and with a query regarding its intended extent.

Shortly afterward, Dreadstar responded by email:

This looks like a threat to me, you'll be lucky if I don't indef block your account.

I do not recall that I made any reply. A few minutes later, he wrote again:

Oh you motherfucker, you DARE ACCUSE ME of condoning RAPE?
You'd best retract, NOW.

A few minutes later:

It's about to get really ugly; accusing me of condoning rape....well, now that gets personal....

The topic ban is neither expedient nor appropriate; it is the reverse. It does not improve the encyclopedia; it makes it worse. It does not advance the project; it invites additional derision and ridicule at a moment when -- let’s face it -- Misplaced Pages needs all the friends it can find, and among whom I might perhaps, once again, number myself. MarkBernstein (talk) 19:50, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

I submit this very reluctantly, with scant hope of a sympathetic reception or a fair hearing, after others urged me to do so. It’s doubtless in the wrong form or the wrong template; I can’t for the life of me figure that out; feel free to apply necessary mops to make it right. I may monitor the discussion that follows but do not promise to do so; if you wish any information or comment from me, please feel free to contact me at my office or by email. MarkBernstein (talk) 19:50, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

And the first of the troupe arrives. Does Starke Hathway comment on what I wrote? They do not. Do they comment on content? Nope. Instead, they disparage me personally, impugn my motives, and claim that I speculate about the motives of other editors when, in point of fact, I did not: I speculated that motives might exist. How much of this garbage do the admins intend to tolerate? (My guess: as much as can be mustered from every slop pail they can find, but we’ll see.) MarkBernstein (talk) 20:25, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

Statement by Starke Hathaway

I don't see any issue here that should invalidate the TBAN. When an editor has been warned at least four times not to make comments about other editors on article talk pages, that editor shouldn't anticipate good things coming from the decision to post a comment speculating about the motives of a "particular group of editors" on an article talk page. Frankly anyone other than MarkBernstein would have been TBANNed and blocked (likely indefinitely) long before reaching this point, if admin action in this topic area is any indication.

For what it's worth, MarkBernstein, I'm sorry Dreadstar called you a motherfucker. He shouldn't have done that, and I hope he apologized (did he?) -Starke Hathaway (talk) 20:15, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

Statement by Rhoark

I strongly disagree with @Gamaliel:'s redaction of multiple contributors' comments. The scoping of the removal goes well beyond the tangential dispute, to include a great deal of discussion on the causes and merits of the ban under appeal. Rhoark (talk) 19:32, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

The matter which is being actively censored on this page is highly relevant to the appeal at hand, because it directly concerns the behavior that has caused MarkBernstein to be topic banned: assuming bad faith, feigned outrage, and a revolving door of drama exported off-site, given a megaphone, then brought back again. If this continues to go on during the appeal what reason is there to believe it will stop? I'll also point out that the structure of this incident exactly mirrors what happened with Dreadstar. I'll leave it to others on how to interpret that. If MB starts to take some responsibility, then and only then will I concur with a desire to sweep the censored incident under the rug.

I think we can all agree that when people feel they are prevented from improving the encyclopedia for invalid reasons it fosters acting out. I don't support repealing MB's ban, nor blocking him. The situation is like a handful of sand; gripping harder will make it slip away faster. That's why I brought a request for amendment. Rhoark (talk) 18:11, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

The people who were banned at arbcom were banned for battleground mentality and assuming bad faith, not feminism or protecting against BLP violations. MarkBernstein is attempting to convince us by pointy filings and more assumption of bad faith that the arbcom decision has left the encyclopedia open to unchecked abuse, when that is patently not the case. Lena Dunham and Campus rape are fairly quiet and orderly, more so since the GG sanction scope clarification. There is simply no BLP crisis arising from the absence of a few editors. While he's skilled in oblique statements and plausible deniability, the continual pushing of this arbcom narrative is a WP:SOAP impediment to consensus-building in whatever conversations he injects it. Rhoark (talk) 21:06, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

@Hipocrite: I've made an effort to read as many policies, guidelines, and essays as possible as research for a planned series of essays on content dispute resolution. The first, on reliable sourcing, isn't done yet, but it's close. Constructive comments from anyone are appreciated. Rhoark Rhoark (talk) 15:20, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

@TenOfAllTrades: @Thryduulf: It's absolutely correct that I had some experience with Misplaced Pages before registering an account - experience that I gained as an IP editor. I have never edited under any other account. If the matter requires further discussion, I'd prefer it be centralized here or another dedicated space. Rhoark (talk) 15:34, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

@TenOfAllTrades: You miss the mark, in that I did not register to engage in a contentious area, but in all the contentious areas. I watch noticeboards and try to redirect conversations from conduct and irrelevant content policy to relevant content policy. So far that's included Gamergate, other gender-related disputes, Ukraine, Palestine, Tibet, biblical scholarship, and (head-scratchingly) the governance structure of the University of Texas in the 19th century. The experience has motivated my current essay project, to address frequent fallacies. Rhoark (talk) 16:09, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

I'm pleased to see that incredulity about my overwhelming competence as an editor is now even being discussed off-site. Rhoark (talk) 17:39, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

Statement by squiggleslash

The topic ban was an over-reaction to something that if it was a violation of any rule, was clearly an ultra minor one. What purpose is it supposed to serve beyond intimidating someone with views unpopular amongst those pushing the ban (and the two subsequent follow-on attempts to sanction him)? What editor read a reference to a self defining group, in the context of a discussion about the principles behind accepting or rejecting sources, and said "Why, that fellow is obviously attacking me! I shall immediately post an angry unwikipedian response even if this means the once polite, friendly, and constructive discussions of Gamergate here are forever tainted!"

It's absurd. It's even more absurd this has gone on for a week and nobody with power has fixed it. --Squiggleslash (talk) 20:39, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

Statement by coldacid

Just because nobody was mentioned by name doesn't mean it's not criticism of other editors. And the collusion accusations, insinuated or explicitly made, are certainly no sign of good faith. Wording the accusations the way they were on the GG talk page violates at the very least the spirit of the "no criticism" restriction. The insinuations made above in this very appeal regarding admins tolerating filings against Mark Bernstein from every slop pail they can find just leaves even more of a bad taste in the mouth.

I'm sorry, but honestly this behaviour really needs to come to a stop. All we get now is needless drama over admin actions, not even content, whenever Mark Bernstein is mentioned. If he truly wants to continue considering himself a friend and valued editor of Misplaced Pages, he needs to learn to contribute without the snark, attitude, and insinuations that keep leading him here. I'd suggest the tban stand, and that Mark Bernstein ask himself if he really wants to keep being dramatically WP:POINTy or if we wants to be a positive contributor. // coldacid (talk|contrib) 5:35 pm, Yesterday (UTC−4)

@Rhoark: Hear hear. However, I don't agree with reducing the scope of the GG topic bans, because it's fairly obvious that both sides of the battle are rife with troublemakers just itching to make points or become glorious martyrs for their cause. Relaxing the ban of the scope will more likely allow the flames to be fanned further, rather than reducing the heat of the whole situation. coldacid (talk|contrib) 02:31, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

@ForbiddenRocky and PeterTheFourth: Perhaps it was a little too personal of a reaction to not question Dreadstar enacting the ban, but that doesn't change the fact that Mark Bernstein's conduct both before and after has been highly questionable and warranting of admin action. I think it's fairly likely that his ongoing posts of aspersions, accusations, and antagonistic insinuations would have gotten him or any other editor an indefinite block on grounds of incivility, were it not for the sanctions available through the GamerGate case, and all the attention paid to the actors and drama involved. // coldacid (talk|contrib) 02:03, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

Statement by Bosstopher

Statement by Starship.paint

MarkBernstein in this very appeal: The italicized question might be taken to allude to the insistent, relentless, perfervid POV pushing practiced by a coterie of editors on this page, abetted by a constantly-refreshed stream of socks and zombies working with expert admin assistance and supervision, in blatant and unchecked violation of WP:NPOV and WP:FLAT.

Coldacid above: And the collusion accusations, insinuated or explicitly made, are certainly no sign of good faith If he truly wants to continue considering himself a friend and valued editor of Misplaced Pages, he needs to learn to contribute without the snark, attitude, and insinuations that keep leading him here. starship.paint ~ ¡Olé! 00:18, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

• What ForbiddenRocky and PeterTheFourth fail to mention is that the 'rape' comment, and subsequent reaction, came after the topic ban, not before, after Dreadstar read a response of MarkBernstein to the topic ban. The topic ban should not be overturned just because Dreadstar over-reacted later; as for the cause of Dreadstar's over-reaction, I am of the opinion, and NE Ent seems to agree from his statement further up the page, that Dreadstar reacted is because of a provocative message from MarkBernstein. Dreadstar was definitely within his latitude to sanction MarkBernstein before the 'rape' comment was ever made, because the sanction had nothing to do with "rape", and everything to do with MarkBernstein refusing to stop commenting or posting insinuations regarding other editors. starship.paint ~ ¡Olé! 07:00, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

Statement by Hipocrite

Why is Rhoark, an obvious sockpuppet being used in administrative spaces unblocked? Rhoark created his account in late 2014. Hipocrite (talk) 13:45, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

Rhoark, you are required to use your primary account to edit project space. Hipocrite (talk) 15:24, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

Statement by ForbiddenRocky

As I read User:Dreadstar's comment on my talk page, User:MarkBernstein comes to Dreadstar's attention because people bring Mark to Dreadstar's attention.

1. There is the implication that tattling is how to punish people you don't agree with. I can think of more than a few 1RR violations on GGC that were settled without admin involvement; but this raises the question why some violations wind up in AE and others do not. There are several edits that perhaps are sanctionable that have been ignore by many, some ignoring because it suits an agenda, or some ignoring the problematic edits (except to fix them) in an effort to limit the drama. Should every editor report every other editor for every minor problem? From what I can see some of editors would not survive the same intense scrutiny being applied to Mark. And some of editors conveniently ignore the provoking or bad behavior of editors they side with. Mark is being hounded.

1. Also, I do question the equanimity of Dreadstar when he sanctioned Mark. Dreadstar brought his strange "rape" accusation thing to my talk page. He brought that point up in response to my asking about sanctioning Mark, the implication being that it was relevant to Dreadstar WRT sanctioning Mark for talking about other editors. If his reading of Mark contributed to his decision to sanction Mark, then that sanction should be reversed. I note Dreadstar has withdrawn the accusation he made WRT what Mark was saying.

ForbiddenRocky (talk) 20:10, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

Statement by PeterTheFourth

The motivation for the topic ban comes from a very questionable place, given how emotionally Dreadstar has reacted in regards MarkBernstein and Dreadstar's statements during and after. It's preeminently clear that Dreadstar's response was not reasonable- he's acknowledged culpability and apologised for what's been said, but done nothing to fix the actions he's taken. If nothing else, uninvolved admins should look at the topic ban, the diffs that supposedly support it, and either instate it themselves in their position as uninvolved admins or repeal it wholesale as the farce it is. PeterTheFourth (talk) 00:32, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

Statement by (username)

Result concerning MarkBernstein

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

I have removed all references to the Reichstag, including my own. The appropriateness of this reference is not the subject of this request and it should not be used as an excuse to flog your opponents in a pre-existing dispute. Gamaliel (talk) 16:50, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

Appeal to lift topic ban by Ashtul

Galestar