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Final warning
Another revert like this one will get you blocked. I've already warned you above, so you really have no excuse this time. Discuss it at the talk page, don't revert. — Mr. Stradivarius 01:30, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
- Hello again User:Mr. Stradivarius, there is/was obviously still some misunderstanding about this. I thought that what you meant last time was that one edit was not generally considered edit-warring and that the warning was for informational purposes to stop it descending into an edit-war. But OK I get what you are saying. I see that you have also warned QG and in my opinion his revert did constitute edit-warring since it was reverting a revert. It may be worth also noting that the recent edits to the article appear to be in direct violation of advice recently given by an admin stating "Once unprotected, please ensure that you've achieved consensus for any changes you make to the page given how controversial it's been."
- The point is that this time is the second time you have made such a wholesale revert. Yes, there was a period of full protection in between them, but it was still a second revert doing essentially the same thing as the first one. Slow-burning edit wars are still edit wars, and given the controversial nature of the article I intend to be strict about enforcing the edit-warring policy there. — Mr. Stradivarius 03:17, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
- OK well I was trying to follow WP:BRD. I accept that this probably isn't appropriate for this article but the process is already being set into swing by aggressive "bold" changes. I can understand why some editors would not want page protection due to the open editing ethos but we seem to have gone straight to the other end of the scale. Now editors can aggressively add vast amounts of material without prior discussion and it can't be reverted, we have to get consensus merely to have it removed. If you are going to clampdown on large reverts then surely it is also neccesary to clampdown on large edits without prior discussion? Getting consensus to have these edits removed is far more difficult than forcing them through. This is somewhat contrary to WP:NOCONSENSUS and gives a clear advantage to editors who don't respect the consensus process. I get what you are saying User:Mr. Stradivarius, I have no choice but to stop wholsesale reverting, but I would appreciate it if you would please consider these points.Levelledout (talk) 14:33, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
- The point is that this time is the second time you have made such a wholesale revert. Yes, there was a period of full protection in between them, but it was still a second revert doing essentially the same thing as the first one. Slow-burning edit wars are still edit wars, and given the controversial nature of the article I intend to be strict about enforcing the edit-warring policy there. — Mr. Stradivarius 03:17, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
- For my part, I was very tempted to block Levelledout right now, Mr. Stradivarius. After conceding here that it wasn't necessary to make such a wholesale revert, you perform the exact same wholesale revert 12 days later. This time after QuackGuru had given a detailed rationale on the talkpage, so WP:CAUTIOUS hardly applies, and it certainly doesn't make the central question of sourcing "irrelevant", as you seem to think. You are editing disruptively on Electronic cigarette. The only reason I'm not blocking you at this time is that Mr S has already warned you. Bishonen | talk 10:15, 31 March 2015 (UTC).
- I am literally staggered that you think that WP:CAUTIOUS does not apply. Where exactly did QuackGuru successfully seek consensus before instating the 17k of changes? I would not even say that he provided a detailed rational since most of it focused on personally attacking me for a revert that I made nearly two weeks ago. Large-scale changes should be discussed regardless of sourcing, WP:CAUTIOUS doesn't make exceptions based on sourcing.Levelledout (talk) 13:12, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
- And I'm literally bowled over that you think you needn't engage with QuackGuru's sources and rationale before reverting all the material he has added. It's a real battleground action, and, especially,this post is a battleground post. You offer no factual reason for reverting; apparently you think you don't have to. I suggest you read WP:CAUTIOUS more carefully. It doesn't mention consensus. It does say
"If you choose to be bold, try to justify your change in detail on the article talk page, so as to avoid an edit war."
That's what QG did, as far as I can see. You chose to edit war anyway. Bishonen | talk 14:50, 31 March 2015 (UTC).- Yes and it also says "Prevent edit warring by discussing such edits first on the article's talk page." Given that QuackGuru was told by an admin here on 20 March "Once unprotected, please ensure that you've achieved consensus for any changes you make to the page given how controversial it's been" would you not agree that he should have in fact done this? It's not that I don't consider it necessary to take QG's reasoning into account, it's that I find it difficult to believe that you think that QG gave adequate reasoning to explain 17k of changes when all he actually noted was some changes to the lead, one single word, one single sentence and a couple of other statements. Considering that QuackGuru had been editing the entire article from his sandbox for 10 days, he had ample opportunity to discuss all of the changes he was making on the article talk page. Consider that WP:CAUTIOUS also states "consider first creating a new draft on a subpage of your own user page and then link to it on the article's talk page so as to facilitate a new discussion".Levelledout (talk) 15:10, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
- It is worth noting that QG did in fact link to their sandbox on the article talk page (at least twice) and others have been discussing it on the talk page. I'm not familiar enough with the discussion to say whether there was consensus for all the changes or not, but in this regard QG was indeed following WP:CAUTIOUS. ~Adjwilley (talk) 23:56, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
- Adjwilley, QG has inserted large amounts of information into the article from their sandbox on more than one occasion recently. On this last occasion he transferred the entire article to his sandbox on 19 March and edited from there until inserting it into the article here on 30 March. So far as I can tell at no point was anybody informed on the article talk page during this period.Levelledout (talk) 02:03, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
- It is worth noting that QG did in fact link to their sandbox on the article talk page (at least twice) and others have been discussing it on the talk page. I'm not familiar enough with the discussion to say whether there was consensus for all the changes or not, but in this regard QG was indeed following WP:CAUTIOUS. ~Adjwilley (talk) 23:56, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
- Yes and it also says "Prevent edit warring by discussing such edits first on the article's talk page." Given that QuackGuru was told by an admin here on 20 March "Once unprotected, please ensure that you've achieved consensus for any changes you make to the page given how controversial it's been" would you not agree that he should have in fact done this? It's not that I don't consider it necessary to take QG's reasoning into account, it's that I find it difficult to believe that you think that QG gave adequate reasoning to explain 17k of changes when all he actually noted was some changes to the lead, one single word, one single sentence and a couple of other statements. Considering that QuackGuru had been editing the entire article from his sandbox for 10 days, he had ample opportunity to discuss all of the changes he was making on the article talk page. Consider that WP:CAUTIOUS also states "consider first creating a new draft on a subpage of your own user page and then link to it on the article's talk page so as to facilitate a new discussion".Levelledout (talk) 15:10, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
- And I'm literally bowled over that you think you needn't engage with QuackGuru's sources and rationale before reverting all the material he has added. It's a real battleground action, and, especially,this post is a battleground post. You offer no factual reason for reverting; apparently you think you don't have to. I suggest you read WP:CAUTIOUS more carefully. It doesn't mention consensus. It does say
- I am literally staggered that you think that WP:CAUTIOUS does not apply. Where exactly did QuackGuru successfully seek consensus before instating the 17k of changes? I would not even say that he provided a detailed rational since most of it focused on personally attacking me for a revert that I made nearly two weeks ago. Large-scale changes should be discussed regardless of sourcing, WP:CAUTIOUS doesn't make exceptions based on sourcing.Levelledout (talk) 13:12, 31 March 2015 (UTC)
@Mr. Stradivarius and Bishonen:Also worth noting QG refers and links to his sandbox but edits his sanbox (no d), won't engage in discussion of his edits. Doesn't justify them in the slightest. This revert is not something worth warning over and is truly appropriate for wikipedia. Could you point me to an appropriate venue to have a discussion with other admins over the appropriateness of this warning? SPACKlick (talk) 10:01, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
- The appropriate venue for that would be WP:AN. In my opinion, a slow-burning edit war is well worth warning over, however. — Mr. Stradivarius 10:58, 2 April 2015 (UTC)
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