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  1. November 2004 — June 2006


Removed

The beginning phrase-"Kimi Ga Yo"-was originally written "Wa Ga Kimi"(我が君, or "Our Lord"). As time passed, the form using "Kimi Ga Yo" spread. At this point in time "Kimi" meant "Monarch" or "Emperor". However, in a time without mass communication, to the common people the Emperor seemed to be an untouchable, unimaginable god, floating above the clouds and a thing of long ago legend or fairy tales. So, it is also possible that the lyrics praying for the long life of "My Lord" were separated from any sort of loyalty and used instead as a prayer for the continuation of peace. For this reason, when the peacefully Heian Period changed to the bloody Edo Period, the song once again became used as a simple celebration song among common people. To go along with this, the meaning of "Kimi" also underwent a transformation. For example, when the song was sung in celebration of a wedding, "Kimi" came to mean the groom and the song was used to wish for the groom's long life and his family's health. The version of the song published in the 1881 "Elementary Student's Song Book (First Edition)" by the Japanese Ministry of Education ) was longer than the current version and surprisingly, there was also a second version. It was derived from an English Hymn.

Can anyone provide evidence/sources? Exploding Boy 04:42, July 10, 2005 (UTC)


Parody

I doubt that the parody of Kimigayo deserve an article of wikipedia. It is not really prevailing in Japan except for some political groups. Should we delete the article about parody?--Questionfromjapan 14:10, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Why? The story has been widely covered by newspapers all over the world. This has been discussed already. See the Filk section above. -- Sakurambo 桜ん坊 16:54, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
It doesn't matter. This is a POV problem. At least in Japan, the parody is not prevailling. It is known as Politiacl Problem by some radical political groups. Does the parody deserve an article in wikipedia? I suppose we should not treat that problem. In fact, Japanese Misplaced Pages does not treat the parody lyrics.--
I agree with Mr/s.DqN's opinion. The current article about political parody is too long.--Questionfromjapan 10:40, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
Please don't start deleting content just because it doesn't conform to your own point of view. Other people have decided that this story is worth mentioning, as have several news organizations in various countries. -- Sakurambo 桜ん坊 09:40, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
Please calm down. And I feel your reply is a bit rude. Please observe proprieties. Anyway, although you assert "Other people have decided that this story is worth mentioning", I do NOT think so. If you insist on it, should we take a vote on it? And, did you read your citation? Some of them are negative opinions for the parody.--Questionfromjapan 10:40, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
several news organizations in various countries? Did the parody become the cover of the newspaper article?　Is the parody published in a general encyclopedia?　Even in Akahata, this article is not a cover either. --218.218.135.225 11:23, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
No opinion on the lyrics; but, the parody has been covered rather widely. Neier 12:09, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

TO Sakurambo, do you understand this parody is POV problem? Even according to your citation, there is a large political dispute about the existence of the parody itselef. I beleive the parody should not be treated in the article "Kimi Ga Yo". If you want to describe about this, you should create anather article, for example "Attack on Japanese Anthem".--Questionfromjapan 01:36, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

You obviously haven't read WP:NPOV, so I'll try to summarize some relevant points for you here:
  • The neutral point of view is a means of dealing with conflicting views. The policy requires that, where there are or have been conflicting views, these should be presented fairly, but not asserted. All significant published points of view are presented, not just the most popular one.
  • NPOV requires views to be represented without bias. A bias is a prejudice in a general or specific sense, usually in the sense of having a predilection for one particular point of view or ideology. {...} Types of bias include {...} Nationalistic bias: favoring the interests or views of a particular nation.
  • A POV fork is an attempt to evade NPOV guidelines by creating a new article about a certain subject that is already treated in an article often to avoid or highlight negative or positive viewpoints or facts. This is generally considered unacceptable. The generally accepted policy is that all facts and majority Points of View on a certain subject are treated in one article.
I'm not suggesting that the parody lyrics express a majority point of view, but they do seem to be representative of a significant minority. If you think the parody lyrics don't exist, then please explain how they came to be published in news articles all over the world. --- Sakurambo 桜ん坊 08:58, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
To Sakurambo. I have already said, "I feel your reply is a bit rude. Please observe proprieties." And this time, I'd like to say that your reply is very rude. You got completely confused what I' like to say. The point of the parody is completely another problem with Kimi-Ga-Yo itself. What is the relationship between the musical sensuness (or its history) and the intention of political group? They are no relevant. You should move this article(Political parody) to Japanese militarism or relevant article. Your intention is to create the abrupt article.--Questionfromjapan 10:20, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, but I don't understand you. What is "sensuness"? The parody lyrics are quite clearly related to the topic of Kimi Ga Yo because they were written specifically for this song. -- Sakurambo 桜ん坊 11:46, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
No. The lyrics were written as Anti-government movement. There is no need to use Kimi-Ga-Yo melody. Any melody, any lyrics and any method is OK for the political movement. We shoud not support the propaganda campaign.--Questionfromjapan 13:12, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
So you think anything that criticizes the Japanese government should be deleted from Misplaced Pages? I have asked you on several occasions to read WP:NPOV. Please do so. -- Sakurambo 桜ん坊 15:52, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
The criticism is not point. I did not say the parody should be deleted itself. I only say it should be deleted from the article "Kimi Ga Yo". The important thing is there is a big difference between music and political intention.--Questionfromjapan 21:15, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
So in other words you're proposing a POV fork. Which part of WP:NPOV don't you understand? -- Sakurambo 桜ん坊 22:35, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
No. There is a big difference in the contents between music and intentional political movement.--Questionfromjapan 23:40, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Other articles about national anthems mention controversies (see The Star-Spangled Banner, for example). So what is your problem? -- Sakurambo 桜ん坊 00:04, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
No. This problem is not translation problem. Is American anthem translated by anti-government political groups, not by specialist?--Questionfromjapan 03:59, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
So what? -- Sakurambo 桜ん坊 11:15, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
Please be civil(see Misplaced Pages:Civility). And learn to use etiquette Misplaced Pages:Etiquette. Anyway. For example, suppose there exists an article about music which is used in TV-game. And the music is originated in Mozart symphony. Would you like to add the game-music-article into the Mozart page? I don't think so.--Questionfromjapan 11:49, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

oh.., I didn't say the contents of "controversy" and "political parody" articles are good or not. And it's not really a matter on whether lyrics is good or not. (Personally I think those are ridiculous and not neutral.) I think most of us agree that those are political news. It's mere news. Is political news national anthem? Someone who want to read political news should read newspaper. If someone want to write those articles, a short sentence like a "please read newspaper, because there is such a story." is enough for it. But I really think it is unnecessary. Bcause "political news" is not "national anthem".
I say once again, I think "controversy" and "political parody" articles are not important information. Because those contents are not always related to national anthem anymore. And that article's volume is too much. Those are more than anthem's main commentary. What do you think about my opinion? I suggest to delete or renew more short.DqN 12:15, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

On the view point of the article volume and the importance, I agree with you. The contexts are really imappropriate for this article.--Questionfromjapan 12:26, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
To Sakurambo, did you finally understand "Misplaced Pages is not a soapbox"?--Questionfromjapan 07:04, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
You're obviously trolling, so I'm not going to respond to your specious remarks any more. -- Sakurambo 桜ん坊 09:25, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
I just warned you for personal-attack on your talk page. Please Be Civil. And please answer my question.--Questionfromjapan 10:37, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
be cool. I think your wikipedian life might be longer than me. .you would not reflect whenever they recognize.when it is,only write WHO ARE YOU.I might stay on for a little while because I have a debt for you.There is no word of the meaning "On" in English.I have worried how to write every time to explain it.--Forestfarmer 16:38, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
Thank you, Forestfarmer. I would like to hold "Cool Head, but Warm Mind".--Questionfromjapan 23:18, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

by the way "Political Parody" section is terrible Japanese corruption.Please write in more cool English when you treat such a sensitive content.It is overall too indistinct.Clarify the subject if you doesn't want to be deleted it.I delate it by political correctness if it leaves just as it is.--Forestfarmer 17:43, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

I deleted "Political Parody".if anyone want to rewrite it, discuss it before you rewrite it.--Forestfarmer 04:26, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Agree. There is violation of WP:NOT and WP:NPOV--Junmai 11:57, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

It's perfectly acceptable to have a paragraph or section in this article discussing a parody (whether political or not) of the song. And to answer Questionfromjapan's question at the very top of this section: there's never been an article about the parody here on Misplaced Pages. It's only ever been a section on this article. As I stated above, it's perfectly acceptable to mention and discuss a parody of something in the article about that something. In fact, unless there is enough material to warrant a completely separate article about the parody, the article about the subject being parodied is the best place for it. ···日本穣 23:34, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

from your insistence,Wkipedia don't allow to write parody.and please protect this article. already the revert abttale started.--Forestfarmer 05:02, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
You mean, we can insert almost all of parody-articles into the articles which are about classical misics and classical drawing in those. Could you insert the article about space battleship YAMATO into the article of sympony? We should not do so. I beleive we should classify those.--Questionfromjapan 06:07, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
Please read what I wrote: It's perfectly acceptable to mention and discuss a parody of something in the article about that something. In fact, unless there is enough material to warrant a completely separate article about the parody, the article about the subject being parodied is the best place for it. So, unless there is enough material to warrant a completely separate article, yes, that's what I'm saying. ···日本穣 17:49, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
What is the meaning of your "material"? "Kimi ga Yo" is an article about japanese national anthem. its contents must be involved to "music", "melody", and " its origin and history". I have showed the parody is written by a radical political group with clearly intent of political agitation. The agitation does not need the melody of "Kimi ga Yo". Is this enough material to warrant a completely separate article??--Questionfromjapan 00:21, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Nihonjoe. The absence of an opposing view represents the worst kind of POV. To maintain NPOV, a well-documented parody should remain in the article. Being reported in papers such as the Guardian, and Reuters (listed above) make this an important topic, whether we agree with it or not. Neier 05:50, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

If there is such a political parody sentence on another wikipedia article .I admit it.--Forestfarmer 17:43, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

The parody, as discussed above, is perfectly acceptable as part of this article. Your constant reverting of the inclusion of this section (with the complicity of Questionfromjapan, and without discussing anything FIRST) is bordering on vandalism. The section does not attack Japan in any way. In fact, I'd say that it shows that democracy is alive and well in Japan (which goes against the commonly-held belief by the uninformed that everyone in Japan is very submissive and doesn't like to stand out (the whole "the nail that sticks out gets hammered down" thing)). Why do the two of you keep reverting this?
The two of you are well known for pushing a pro-Japan POV, and reverting anything you perceive as going against that. It's about time you learned that that way of acting is not acceptable on the English Misplaced Pages. If you don't like the fact that we are at least attempting to maintain neutrality here on the English Misplaced Pages, then you can leave. POV-pushers are not welcome here.
If, on the other hand, you want to change your ways and start actually working with those of us trying to make the Japan-related articles on Wikiepdia better, you're welcome to stay. Otherwise, you're likely going to disrupt your way to being banned. We really would rather that you decide to work with us rather than constantly throwing gasoline on things. It's very frustrating to be trying to work through making the articles comprehensive and neutral, only to have very opiniontated editors come in and, rather than discuss the ideas, they simply try to force their POV on everyone else. This is how you (and several others who work like you) are perceived by the majority of editors here. Will you work with us, or are you intent on POV-pushing? ···日本穣 20:36, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
Additionally, please note that by including this information, we are abiding by the Neutral Point of View policy, the included links make sure we are abiding by the Verifiability policy and Citing sources guideline. Note that all three of these are either official policies or guidelines. As Neier pointed out, if we do not include them, we are in violation of the Neutral Point of View policy. This may cause the whole article to be placed up for deletion due to not presenting all sides fairly. ···日本穣 20:54, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
Don't attack personal.and Cannot you find the another article ? I want to know is only it.--Forestfarmer 23:42, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
I've removed the only line that could be seen as a personal attack. As for finding "the another article," I have no idea what you mean. What other article? ···日本穣 23:46, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:NPOV tutorial#Information suppression seems to agree that the material belongs in the article, specifically, this sentence: Entirely omitting significant citable information in support of a minority view, with the argument that it is claimed to be not credible. Neier 00:50, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

At first, see the version "13:56, 16 July 2006" which is written by me. And , please see this note and please read "The parody is written by a radical political group with clearly intent of political agitation. The agitation does not need the melody of "Kimi ga Yo". Is this enough material to warrant a completely separate article??" Please comment to this. Thank you. P.S. Please do discuss before revert.--Questionfromjapan 01:05, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
It doesn't matter who wrote it. It doesn't matter why it was written. The fact is that it was written. Because of this fact, and the news covereage it has garnered, it should be mentioned in this article. The way it is presented is very neutral and makes no judgement about the parody. All that's happening is that the parody is being mentioned in the controversy section since it is a well-known, well-covered-in-the-news controversial version of the song. There is not likely enough material to warrant a separate article, so it is mentioned here.
As for discussing before you revert, please follow your own advice. You have yet to offer any valid reason the parody should not be mentioned here, while multiple valid reasons have been offered as to why the parody SHOULD be mentioned. Unless you can offer valid reasons for it to not be included, any further reverting will be considered vandalism.
You have absolutely nothing to stand on here.
You are very unlikely to come up with any valid reasons.
There is nothing to back up anything you are saying here with regard to validly removing the mention of the parody.
Please stop wasting your time and our time trying to push you POV on this article. Instead, perhaps you should find some articles discussing why the parody is "bad" or "unacceptable", and then provide those links. I'm sure all of the reasonable editors trying to make this article better will be happy to include those links as well. I look forward to you participating in a positive manner in the future. ···日本穣 04:55, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
Ok. In the interest of fairness, I have copied QFJ's version below.
  • "Kimi Ga Yo" is sometimes referred as a symbol of Japanese imperialism for some radical anti-war groups and anarchists. Therefore, they have strongly opposed to sing "Kimi Ga Yo" in ceremonies for a long time since they regard the song as an inappropriate song. (see these,) In 1999, the new Law Concerning the National Flag and Anthem oblige the attendants of graduation ceremony to sing "Kimi Ga YO" as nationl anthem.
This is not related to the parody, but, to the controversy as a whole. It is already mentioned in the controversy section above anyway.
  • However, some of anti-war groups propose to sing parody lyrics instead of "Kimi Ga Yo". The lyricist of this parody is Kaori Suzuki, who is a member of the radical anti-war group whose name is "VAWW-NET, Japan". (see this. In japan, it is generally presumed that this group has relationship with North Korea.)
Most of this section is inflammatory, with a dash of WP:WEASEL. Saying the VAWW-Net is allied with North Korea simply because one of the organizing members of a caucus was a North Korean group is presumptuous. If there is more proof, that would be fine; but I also would like to see an authoritative source that says Suzuki wrote the lyrics. I know that most people believe it, but as far as I know, it is not verifiable, so his name may not be needed in this section.
Also, Suzuki's? parody is simply one of the more famous versions. I have read that multiple parodies exist, some of them nonsensical syllables, some of them with political overtones. The parodies exist because of the law and Monbusho's requirement of singing the song. That is why I moved it into the controversy section, because the parodies are just a result of the controversy, and necessary to the article to show how deep the controversy runs.
The controversy section does dominate the article; but, there is a lot more information on the Japanese wikipedia article which can be translated. Neier 05:03, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

If a parody of Kimi ga Yo is prevailing in Japan, I think that it must be written in Japanese. A parody of Kimi ga Yo in English language couldn't be understood by the most part of Japanese. As a matter of reality, I never heard a parody of Kimi ga Yo in Japanese and also in English. I think that the truth must be written in Misplaced Pages.Mythologia 15:36, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

No one is saying that it "prevails" in Japan. All the current paragraph (which keeps getting deleted by the Japanese POV-pushers) is saying is that the parody EXISTS. That is the truth, yet people like you, Questionfromjapan and Forestfarmer won't allow the truth to be written in Misplaced Pages because you keep deleting the truth. You need to quit talking the talk if you aren't going to walk the walk. You can't have only the truth that's convenient for Japan. Occasionally, there will be truth that is inconvenient for Japan, but that needs to be allowed to exist on Misplaced Pages as well. ···日本穣 17:44, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
>日本穣 I didn't delete it because I am disagree it, but because it was not the truth.
"Various English-language parody versions have recently spread across Japan".
This is not the truth because students of schools aren't compeled to sing the song as constitutional right, so they don't sing if they want to sing the song. So they don't have a need for any parody. Who are compeled to sing the song are only teachers who are public servants.
And I agree to write the truth, but I am anxious that the description will be discrimination of Japanese because I think the parodies have spread only in English speaking people if it have really spread. I can't judge it is discrimination or not, because I don't know any of parody of the song. If you want to write the content, please be anxious about the points that I referred to above.
  1. To write that the parodies have principally spread in English speaking people.
  2. Be anxious about the discrimination against Japanese in expression as it is a national anthem.
Mythologia 22:52, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Capitalization

"Ga" is a particle, and therefore shouldn't be capitalized. I think this article needs to be moved to Kimi ga Yo. ···日本穣 21:21, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

It is very difficult problem for me. "Ga" is a particle as you pointed out. However, almost all of Japanese do NOT recognize it as a particle since we call it on one syllable. For Japanese, the accent in the "Kimi Ga Yo" does not exist on syllable since it is one word, not "life and world"+"of"+"you". I would really like to hear other opinions,too.--Questionfromjapan 23:15, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
Your comment doesn't make any sense. All Japanese particles (that I can think of off the top of my head) are one syllable. Regardless, the length has no bearing on whether or not it's consdered a particle. The title literally means "You Are the World". It is very clearly three words (or two words separated by one particle, if you don't consider particles to be words). And if you want to go the "one word" route, then it should be "Kimigayo", not "Kimi Ga Yo" or "Kimi ga Yo". ···日本穣 23:29, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
You're right. According to my thought, Kimigayo is better.--Questionfromjapan 05:56, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
I think "Kimi ga Yo" is better. Particles are normally written as separate words in romaji (e.g., Otoko wa Tsurai yo), and song titles are no exception (plenty of examples here). Proper nouns like Takadanobaba and Inoue are a different matter, of course. -- Sakurambo 桜ん坊 10:27, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
I understand and agree. 'Kimi ga Yo' is better. However, should you apologize me before re-participate to this page?--Questionfromjapan 10:40, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

I think usual Japanese don't understand why the title was changed. Japanese don't understand "particle" usually. Japanese may think that someone capitalized a head of word about "Kimi Ga Yo".and Japanese may think that Someone Romanized "君が代" about "Kimigayo".but Japanese may think why this title is "Kimi ga Yo"

when Japanese see "Kimi ga Yo",Japanese may think why nobody change to "Kimi Ga Yo" or "Kimigayo".because Japanese don't understand "particle" usually. I think that he who change this title have more knowledge than usual Japanese about Japanese roman words. usual Japanese may think The title is unsuitable, but I think that the title may be right. I think "Kimigayo" is less right than "Kimi ga Yo".but less controversial for Japanese. It is hard choice. but I recommend "Kimigayo" for the long. I think that it is a political correctness.--Forestfarmer 20:08, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, the English Misplaced Pages is not for the Japanese, but for the English-speaking world. This is a well-known and common grammar rule in the English-speaking world, and therefore appropriate for application here. It has nothing to do with political correctness.···日本穣 20:24, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
"political correctness" being writed by me do not mean to avoid discriminatory words.it mean that you should avoid colliding if it is not right-on.
Either is privately good.and when you have such strong devices.I can not to do anything.--Forestfarmer 23:16, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
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