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Talk:Salafi movement

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AnonMoos 03:01, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Claims about the Saudi Government funding Salfism

There is a paragraph that currently reads as follows:

The Saudi government is providing funding to increase Salafi Islam throughout the world. Estimates of Saudi spending on religious causes abroad include "upward of $100 billion", between $2 and 3 billion per year since 1975 (compared to the annual Soviet propaganda budget of $1 billion/year), and "at least $87 billion" from 1987–2007.
  1. Documentary The Qur'an aired in the UK, The Qur'an review in The Independent
  2. Yahya Birt, an academic who is director of The City Circle, a networking body of young British Muslim professionals, quoted in Wahhabism: A deadly scripture| Paul Vallely 01 November 2007
  3. Saudi Arabia, Wahhabism and the Spread of Sunni Theofascism| By Ambassador Curtin Winsor, Ph.D.
  1. Source 1 says "Unfortunately, however, it is smothered by a belligerent, patriarchal form of Islam, called Wahabism, which has the formidable support of Saudi Arabian petro-dollars. This programme suggested that over the past few decades, upwards of $100 billion has been spent promoting Wahabism". It does not say that the Saudi government is funding Salafi Islam.
  2. Source 2 says "King Abdullah's Saudi regime spends billions of pounds each year promoting Wahhabism". It does mention that "Stephen Schwartz, author of The Two Faces of Islam, dismiss salafism as a mere synonym for Wahhabism", and names a few other people who possibly agree with him to some extent. Source 2, does say: "Yahya Birt, an academic who is director of The City Circle, a networking body of young Muslim professionals, estimates 'Saudi spending on religious causes abroad as between $2bn and $3bn per year since 1975 (comparing favourably with what was the annual Soviet propaganda budget of $1bn), which has been spent on 1,500 mosques, 210 Islamic centres and dozens of Muslim academies and schools'. More than that they have flooded the Islamic book market with cheap well-produced Wahhabi literature whose print runs, Birt says, "can be five to 10 times that of any other British-based sectarian publication, aggressively targeted for a global English-speaking audience." This has had the effect of forcing non-Wahhabi publishers across the Muslim world to close. It has put out of business smaller bookshops catering for a more mainstream Muslim market."
  3. Source 3 is a dead link. The title "Saudi Arabia, Wahhabism and the Spread of Sunni Theofascism" makes it clear that it was discussing Wahhabism.

Misplaced Pages:No original research says "To demonstrate that you are not adding OR, you must be able to cite reliable, published sources that are directly related to the topic of the article, and directly support the material being presented".

Sources 1 and 2 clearly support the case that the Saudi Government is providing funding to increase Wahhabi Islam throughout the world. The inference from that the Saudis are supporting Salafis is indirect - it depends on accepting Mr Stephen Schwartz's claims and combining them with other statements to draw a conclusion not directly stated. i.e. the claim that the Saudi Government is funding the spread of Salafi Islam is original research.-- Toddy1 (talk) 18:56, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

Minor Edits

The following end note,

^ Jump up to: a b Wahhabism, Salafismm and Islamism Who Is The Enemy? By Pfr. Ahmad Mousali | Ameriacan University of Beirut | Page-11

which was #140 the last time I checked the page, has a typo in it -- "Ameriacan" instead of "American." Tried to change it myself, but the editing section for references, a Reflist, doesn't appear to enable editing of it. Emerald Evergreen 03:26, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

  • Fixed! The references are actually included in the body of the article's text, the Reflist is only an "anchor" that groups them all down there, so to speak --CopperKettle 06:28, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

should the terrorist attack in france be added

according to news the terrorist was a part of the movement. should that b84.213.45.196 (talk) 12:40, 26 June 2015 (UTC)e mentioned in the article.

No mention of aqeedah as being a reason of differing views

In Islam, there are three major schools of thought on the aqeedah, or the attributes of God. A prominent school is the Ashari, primarily deriving from Sufi's. There is also "Athari" or "Atharee" which the "Salafi's" follow. In many cases, this is the only major belief that makes one considered "Salafi." Generally with regard to biddah or innovation, many many scholars from all viewpoints are against it. When it comes to madhabs, many Muslims accept them but believe if something is discovered that is more authentic than the view of the madhab, they will hold the differing view, and therefore use ijtjihad. Taqleed is denied by most Islamic scholars because if you find a Hadith that says different and you are studied in the Islamic sciences, you don't have to agree with your madhab. So 1. aqeedah 2. biddah and 3. taqleed/ijtjihad are the three major characteristics. However, the aqeedah is the biggest. Many Muslims hold aqeedah views of the Athari, do not believe in biddah, and support ijtjihad but do not call themselves Salafi because they want no labels. But they fit the definition. Misplaced Pages's lack to mention that is sad. See Yasir Qadhi's view. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.203.153.242 (talk) 09:31, 20 July 2015 (UTC)

Revert by Toddy1

I have added the following statements:

"Some Sunni leaders, however, consider Salafism to be outside of the fold of Sunni Islam and rather to be a modern version of Kharjism"

This is justified by the sources indicated.

The first source clearly states: "The most extremist pseudo-Sunni movement today is Wahhabism (also known as Salafism)." As we can see they refer to Salafism as a pseudo-Sunni movement, which according to them delegitimizes the claim that Salafis are Sunnis. According to this source it states the following:

"...and this is typical of the Khawarij or Separatists who went against the authority of the Imam of Muslims and the Shari'a of Allah, the latest example of whom being those who followed Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab in his repellion against the Khalifa. We have no doubt that the present attack is the work of those who follow the Wahhabi tenets rather than the tenets of Ahl al-Sunna, and who are known today as "Salafis."

As we can see in this source the Salafis are referred to as modern day Khawarij as well as NOT a part of Ahl al-Sunna (Sunnis). This point of view by mainstream Sunni leaders should NOT be ignored.

According to this source it states the following: The self-proclaimed righteous clergyman of Arabia followed the foot steps of Khawarij and revived the Khawarijism.

As for the history section it is very clear and conside. The Salafi Movement was started by Ibn Abdul Wahhab of Najd. The usage of the term "Salaf as Salih" or its variants has nothing to do with the actual Salafi Movement. This is well documented and the sources are clear and accurate. Xtremedood (talk) 10:19, 24 July 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for updating the article Xtremedood, I put this on my watchlist when I noticed that how heavily it downplayed the fact that Salafis are a recent phenomenon. Thanks for fixing things. Nonetheless I dont believe "Some Sunni leaders, however, consider Salafism to be outside of the fold of Sunni Islam and rather to be a modern version of Kharjism." should be the second sentence of the lede. It should be much lower down in the lede, because it's important to first describe what Salafis believe themselves to be. Brustopher (talk) 10:47, 24 July 2015 (UTC)
I'm actually a little bit shocked by how poor these edits were, and I'd really like more editors to be involved in trying to correct this. I generally avoid this article like the plague, but the blatant anti-salafi/pro-sufi bias seems to have returned after having been tamed by consensus for so long.
Sunnah.org is as clear an example of a hate site if I ever did see one. It's run by a group of sufis even considered outlandish in the world of Sufism, namely G.F. Haddad, Faraz Rabbani, Nuh Keller, et al. They flourish in the west but have little to no following in the actual Muslim world. That doesn't make them wrong, but they do represent a fringe view - a non-academic fringe view with no proper oversight or editorial board policies.
Hisham Kabbani in particular is considered a fraud among many in his own tariqa, has few academic qualifications to be writing (or used as a Misplaced Pages citation) and mostly just spews dogmatic hate about the salafists - much of which is demonstrably false. That isn't to say that the salafist movement hasn't been criticized or that it's free from the numerous problems with extremism pointed out; rather, what needs to be said here is that basing material - in the lead no less! - on "sources" including junk from Sunnah.org and its associated authors would be about as reasonable as including material from, say, SalafiPublications.com or other blatantly pro-salafi sites (which are also included in the article, strangely enough).
Suffice to say that these recent edits did not conform to the long held consensus nor generally understood scholarly criticism of the movement. Something more mainstream would either be stuff by non-Muslim academic stuff (McGill, Univ. of Chicago, etc.) or Muslim academics who actually have credibility outside of entirely self-published sources; better examples would the the Khaled Aboul Fadl types. But the whole "wahhabi alert" page not only ignores the actual cited reliable sources here by conflating salafism with wahhabism; it also simply promotes rather ignorant and often empirically false claims. Let's just try sticking to academic sources instead of going on a warpath against User:Toddy1 or whoever and making massive changes to the lead, one of the most important parts of the article, without any discussion. MezzoMezzo (talk) 04:21, 10 August 2015 (UTC)
Agreed. The sources look doubtful but in any event WP:UNDUE applies: it is entirely fringe to say that Salafis/Wahhabis are considered to be not Sunnis. DeCausa (talk) 09:37, 10 August 2015 (UTC)
The source cited as "Wahhabism: Understanding The Roots And Role Models Of Islamic Extremism by Zubair Qamar" is not Zubair Qamar's work. It is "condensed and edited by ASFA staff". It is unfair and misleading to pass this off as Zubair Qamar's work.-- Toddy1 (talk) 10:10, 10 August 2015 (UTC)
The revert that Xtremedood is complaining about is this one.
  • Under history it says that "The actual modern day Salafi movement was started by a man named Muhammad ibn Abd-al-Wahhab who disagreed with a variety of beliefs and practices common throughout the Muslim world, such as veneration of Muslim saints (Awliya Allah), celebration of the birth of Muhammad (Mawlid), belief in intercessors, and prayer to God at the tombs of holy Muslim figures (i.e. Prophets, Saints, etc.)" and cites Saudi Arabia in Transition, Cambridge University Press, p. 163 {{citation}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |1= (help) I checked page 163 of the book and it does not support the statement.
  • Under Muhammad ibn Abd-al-Wahhab it says "Salafists consider Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab as the first figure in the modern era to push for a return to the religious practices of the salaf as-salih." It cites "The Principles of Salafiyyah". Salafipublications.com. Retrieved 2010-04-18.. It does not support the statement.
I think the best thing to do would be to revert to the version before Xtremedood's edits.-- Toddy1 (talk) 10:27, 10 August 2015 (UTC)
  1. Zubair Qamar, WAHHABISM: UNDERSTANDING THE ROOTS AND ROLE MODELS OF ISLAMIC EXTREMISM {{citation}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |1= (help)
  2. Hisham Kabbani (2014), The Salafi Movement Unveiled, Osmora Incorporated, p. 18 {{citation}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |1= (help)
  3. Zubair Qamar, WAHHABISM: UNDERSTANDING THE ROOTS AND ROLE MODELS OF ISLAMIC EXTREMISM {{citation}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |1= (help)
  4. Hisham Kabbani (2014), The Salafi Movement Unveiled, Osmora Incorporated, p. 18 {{citation}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |1= (help)
  5. Wahabization-Salafization of Pakistan and Muslim Ummah, Islamic Supreme Council of Canada {{citation}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |1= (help)
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