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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by YuHuw (talk | contribs) at 01:55, 9 January 2016 (→Sorting out the topics at this title). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

The Cite from one of new "references" -Making a Great Ruler: Grand Duke Vytautas of Lithuania -there is nothing their about "Turan tribe"

See http://bookzz.org/dl/955291/028a7d

In Eastern Europe, Karaites are frequently called Karaim, both terms being equal; I prefer to use the Karaite as being more common in English. Karaism as religion is based exclusively on the Torah, rejecting all its commentaries and interpretations, and emphasizes the principles of the Decalogue. In addition to its Judaic origins, Karaism was formed under the strong influence of Islam. As to the liturgy, in Lithuania, it is influenced by Catholicism and consists of psalms and religious cantoes. Liturgical language is Hebrew; however, national tongues are also widely used. Religious holidays are determined according to the Lunar calendar. Summarized from Halina Kobeckaitė, Lietuvos Karaimai (Lithuanian Karaites) (Vilnius: baltos lankos, 1997), 10–31. For the general studies on Karaites, also see Simon Szyszman, Les Karaïtes d’Europe, Acta Universitatis Uppsaliensis: Studia Multiethnica Upsaliensia 7, ed. Harald Runblom (Uppsala: Center d’études multiethniques de l’Université de Upsal, 1989); Ananiasz Zajączkowski, Karaims in Poland: History, Language, Folklore, Science (Warsaw: PWN; Paris: Mouton, 1961).

See also https://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:79.109.203.252 to understand that the author of last changes is known from 2012.Неполканов (talk) 00:58, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

I do not see any reference to a "Turan Church" in the article.

In fact the article is clearly about an ethnic group not a religious group. Dunlop's article is available to read online. You appear to have overlooked the disambiguation at the top distinguishing this ethnic group from Karaim and from Karaites. 94.159.177.65 (talk) 15:44, 8 January 2016 (UTC)

In fact I intended to "Turanian Tribe of Medieval Kyrgyz-Christian origin" claimed by anonim author .

The references are about Karaim while in the header is writen that "Not to be confused" with Karaim that is East Euriopenian name for ethnic (not religious) group of Crimean Karaites see the article that already discusses the different version about origin of Crimean Karaites.It is known style of the same author that claims about origin of Crimean Karaites aproving their claims by distorting the meanings of his references .Неполканов (talk) 20:20, 8 January 2016 (UTC)

I can see from your edit history that you have a diligent and strong personal attachments it seems almost solely to Karaim topics, and have likewise diligently assisted whenever you raised a concern about that author you mentioned. Nevertheless, it honestly seems you are a little confused here and definitely over-reacting in your recent edits and accusations .

This article is essentially a summary of Douglas Morton Dunlop's paper on the Kirgizian Karaits of the Genghisid empire -clearly unrelated to the Jewish Karaim religious group (Qaraites) which you are perhaps a little overly concerned with. In fact the clarification and distinction is very welcome! The fact that such similar names have been used for two so different groups invites more disambiguation, rather than obfuscation on the matter.YuHuw (talk) 22:19, 8 January 2016 (UTC)

Sorting out the topics at this title

Hi guys. I'm an American administrator from Ohio, and have been watching this page for a week. Let's see if we can get it sorted out.

Karait was created as a redirect to Bungarus in June 2008‎. The rationale given for that was: "There's a krait snake in Rikki-Tikki-Tavi called "Karait", people may look up that name (as I did)"

I confirmed that in wikisource:The Jungle Book/"Rikki-Tikki-Tavi": "a tiny voice said: “Be careful. I am Death!” It was Karait, the dusty brown snakeling". Bungarus § In fiction also discusses this.

So there is one meaning for the title, and this redirect stood for seven years, until on December 31 a "new stub" was created by 31.154.167.98.

On New Year's Day, I find that Bungarus has landed in Category:Articles with redirect hatnotes needing review, because its hatnote now erroneously claims that:

"Karait" redirects here. For other meanings, see Karaite.

So I remove the hatnote from Bungarus, and add another hatnote to the new Karait stub:

For other meanings, see Karaite.

...and then another:

Not to be confused with Crimean Karaites.

because, as I said in my edit summary, "I'm confused and unsure if this is a WP:Content fork or not."

I was hoping that you all, as I assume you are much more familiar with the topics than I am, will help clear up my confusion. The dab at Karaim isn't doing a particularly good job of helping to clear it up. I suppose I should now read the section above this, but you guys are ahead of me, and I'm still trying to catch up. Wbm1058 (talk) 00:00, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

There seems to be a distinction here based on geography; I see one based in Crimea (made recently famous by the Russians taking it back), and another based on "the Turanian Tribe", i.e. the Turan region, which seems somewhat removed from Crimea. What is the relationship between these two, if any? Wbm1058 (talk) 00:17, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

Pity there isn't a Facebook style "like" thumbs up we can use on wiki to show appreciation for other user contributions. Thank you for the background history and introduction Wbm1058.

As for me, I am just a wiki reader who likes to make corrections to articles usually on subjects relating to Judaism. I am quite familiar with Karaite Judaism but was always confused by inconsistency and contradictions in writings on the "Karaite" people of Eastern Europe e.g. here. I created an account to join in this discussion because my internet service provider randomly assigns me an IP which changes every few months (usually something like 9_.1__.1__.__ e.g. ) and I was anyway thinking it was probably about time I got an account.

About a week ago I followed a disambiguation link which appeared on the Crimean Karaites page to this article. As far as I can tell it leans heavily on one of its sources, a paper by Douglas Morton Dunlop which I found available online here. It seems the same people have been written about under a variety of different names depending on which language the source was originally in. The article does a good job of listing some of these name variations. It also does a good job clarifying that not all groups in Eastern Europe with names which resemble "Karaite" are related to Judaism. That certainly explains a lot of contradictions I have been seeing. Earlier on the 8th of January I saw a video about "Karaites" in East Europe having an Xmas party so checked back on this article to see if it would help me understand the contradiction. I discovered that the article had been deleted and undid what I thought was thoughtless vandalism.

Clearly the article is not about the Karaim religious group, but about an ethnic group which had origins in the Church of the East even if they are different religions today.

However, I do see what you mean about content fork Wbm1058. The Crimean Karaites definitely clarifies that Crimean Karaites are an ethnic group which has two religions (Karaite Judaism and Christianity) but at the same time presents everything only from the Jewish perspective. *If* Crimean Karaites are just a Crimean branch off of this ethnic "mother" group, it might be that the Crimean Karaites article simply needs re-writing from a more Neutral POV without dwelling at all on one-sided religious bias -and then merged with this one. There is already a section about "Karaim" in Eastern Europe in the Karaite Judaism article anyway here so two articles about the same religious group seems quite redundant. On the other hand this article indicates that in 2002 there were only 671 Crimean Karaites in the world anyway, hardly noteable enough to warrant a separate article of their own. Surely therefore the numbers of Karaits who are practicing Karaims can not be more significant than that to warrant an article of their own separate from Karaite Judaism anyway can they?

Be that as it may, an article about the Russian ethnic group might naturally talk about early migrations of Pagan Rus' tribes and early Rus' kingdoms, but an article about Russian Jews would naturally focus more on the Jewish religion and how Jews came to be in a Russian language area. Likewise an article about the Karait ethnic group will naturally focus on the origins of the Karait ethnicity, primitive religion, kingdoms and migrations, while an article about Karaite Jews would naturally focus on the people of that community who claim Jewish heritage instead. Russians are Russians, Russian Jews are Russian Jews, they just share some cultural-historical context. Similarly Karaits are obviously Karaits but Karaite Jews are obviously Karaite Jews and again they would naturally share some historical and cultural context.

Definitely all worth discussing.YuHuw (talk) 01:55, 9 January 2016 (UTC)

I will try to explain. There two totally fully different ethnic groups :one Kirgiz Mongolian tribal confederation of Khereid, the second ethno-religious group of Crimean Karaites (called also Karailar and Karaim) living in Eastern Europe. Every one has different articles in the wikipedia. The discussed article is the third alternative article about the subjects above claiming that Crimean Karaites of Lithuanua are relaited to this Mongolian Tribe. This theory has nothing with references claimed in the article. Part of then are speaking about ] the others about Crimean Karaites(see my cite above)

In post Soviet Crimea some amateur Crimean Karaites authors claiming the same. They are briefly mentioned on Crimean Karaites page. Any way the place of this stuff not on separate page but on Crimean Karaites page.

Similiar editor already tried to vandalize Crimean Karaites page with references fakes and failed . Now it is the similiar try. I ask first of all to prevent anonimious edit of the article because the suspected author has large repetative record of sockpuppeteery Неполканов (talk) 00:50, 9 January 2016 (UTC)