This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Doug Weller (talk | contribs) at 19:51, 22 January 2016 (→Genetically modified organisms: Arbitrator views and discussion: oops, left the 'not' out, thanks to SV who noticed this). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Requests for clarification and amendment

Clarification request: Genetically modified organisms

Initiated by Jytdog at 00:26, 20 January 2016 (UTC)

Case or decision affected

Genetically modified organisms arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:

• Jytdog (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)

Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request

Statement by Jytdog

My user page has had stuff on it about GMOs for a long time. Two sections: User:Jytdog#GMO_stuff and User:Jytdog#Self-initiated_COI_Investigation.

Should I remove one or both of those sections about GMOs from my user page?

I am concerned on the one hand that removing either would be violating the ban since I am editing content about GMOs in Misplaced Pages; on the other hand I am concerned someone will say that the stuff even being there is a violation and that would be drama.

My judgement would be to remove the first and keep the second, but whatever you say I will do.

Sorry for the bother and also if this inappropriate - I just don't know what to do. Thanks.

Callanecc thanks, I will not touch it, so as not to come close to violating the TBAN. Jytdog (talk) 13:43, 20 January 2016 (UTC)

hmmmm with the clarification. i want to be in the spirit of the TBAN so I will remove the 1st section. Thanks again. Jytdog (talk) 13:50, 20 January 2016 (UTC)

• I find TFD's reactions to me at the Bernie Sanders article to be pretty blatant bad faith and totally surprising. His note below is in response to my message to him here where I wrote: "TFD, you have written several things, and are behaving in a way, that violates AGF. Things like this and this are completely out of line and are getting in the way of dealing with content in the Sanders article. Please stop doing that and deal with the actual content proposals. I don't even know what you mean about "discrediting Sanders"."

Please do look at those 2 diffs of his comments. Please note that TFD presents no diffs below where I mention the topic of my ban nor even that sector of the economy. He will not bring any, because he cannot, because I have not.

The relevant section of the Sanders Talk page is here: Talk:Bernie_Sanders#competitiveness. I don't know if the article touches on the topic on my TBAN; nothing I have written in Talk nor in the content nor any sources i have used mention the topic of my TBAN. This is baseless as far as I can see. Jytdog (talk) 21:54, 20 January 2016 (UTC)

• TFD and AlbinoFerret are pushing forward with this. Again, I didn't edit anything about GMOs on his page.

I could see a clear point here and would agree it was a violation, had I edited something about his food policies or commented on them. I didn't and haven't. I could see a weak point if I had added some denigrating content about him. Content about a position he has held strongly for 30 years (namely that the free trade agreements we have signed since NAFTA have hurt american workers) is not denigrating. Not to me. I don't know why TFD feels Sanders' trade policy discredits him and I still don't understand his point. That is his deal. Not mine.

The arguments being made about this, are so weak that they demean the ones making them, and this forum. I understood that Arbcom was a more controlled environment where this kind of weak poison was not allowed to fester. Jytdog (talk) 08:52, 21 January 2016 (UTC)

• Several of my hounders have come out to play and I can bring plenty of diffs if desired to show that each of the commenters here (with the exception of TFD whose comments surprised me) have consistently opposed me on drama boards. Comments about what Monsanto may or may not want are irrelevant to the edits I actually made on the Sanders article and what I wrote on Talk there, and are a continuation of the hounding that has beset me for three years now. No finding was made in the arbcom case that my edits violated NPOV nor that I have any conflict of interest (see Findings of fact) and these claims are a continuation of the behaviors that led in part to the Arbcom case. Had I participated in the case I would have shown this hounding behavior clearly and gotten findings of fact and sanctions regarding it. That I didn't, is my loss, and the community's.

I am not a paid editor; I have no COI with regard to the topic from which I am banned. I have no relationship with Monsanto and never have had one.

I anticipated that part of my post-ARBCOM life would include my hounders trying to create yet more drama based on weak arguments like these, in order to try to further restrict the sphere of my editing in Misplaced Pages, but it is disheartening to see it play out.

In any case, Gandy (who comments below) implemented the edits I wanted to see in the Sanders article about his position on trade (dif) and that is what I was interested in. I will not edit the Sanders articles going forward. Not because it is within my TBAN (although his stance on GMOs would be) but because my hounders apparently cannot bear it and will continue creating this kind of drama if I would, which is good for nobody. So I won't provoke them.

That said, I would like for this request to be decided, and I would like strong warnings given to those who have brought these weak arguments. Jytdog (talk) 15:35, 22 January 2016 (UTC) (adding emphasis. Jytdog (talk) 19:09, 22 January 2016 (UTC))

about gandy's remark that i am lying, please see this version proposed by me on the Talk page which was completed at 18:22 where I explicitly said i was dropping the wikilink to free trade in the interest of getting the broader content about his position into the article. Gandy completed her revision of the article almost an hour later at 19:10 (dif again). I commented on her revision first here asking for more emphasis on American workers, and then reconsidered a bit later amd here on Talk I said it was fine. So yet more misrepresentation of me. (not to mention her bizarre claim that "Sanders is against fair trade" which nobody including me has ever said - in her haste to denigrate me she misrepresented me, wrote nonsense, and deleted my comments. Here is her dif again)

But this is yet more offtopic hounding drama. I have not violated my topic ban and no one has brought a dif showing i did. Jytdog (talk) 17:12, 22 January 2016 (UTC)

• Guy I hear that and that is what I said I would do above. That does not give this complaint merit.
• AlbinoFerret Your gem at WT:COI which you do not frequent is a case in point. (dif with my response) That comment is as sloppy as the one you made below. I get it that you are still unhappy with things at e-cigs per your lovely exchange here but that is no excuse to go around piling on with lame criticisms. Jytdog (talk) 18:33, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
• Albino your comments here and at WT:COI were lame and nothing but carrying on a grudge. You have been doing great with your closing work but you still pile on whenever you can against mainstream health editors, like me. All that stemming from your timeout from e-cigs, which you took in the face of an impending community-imposed ban. Just knock it off already please, as I have asked you before. Jytdog (talk) 19:15, 22 January 2016 (UTC)

and about this. ditto. You play the disinterested party but all you are doing here is wikilawyering based on a very very weak initial argument, that the arbs/admins who have commented have already rejected. I won't engage further as this is all more offtopic drama from the main point of the bad request and the arguments badly supporting it, which have no merit. This is all just hounding. Jytdog (talk) 19:25, 22 January 2016 (UTC)

Statement by The Four Deuces

I do not wish to comment on Jytdog's request but have another question for clarification. Does the topic ban apply to articles about Bernie Sanders?

Sanders is a leading proponent of GMO labelling and opponent of Monsanto which, as a GMO producer, is one of the articles mentioned in the GMO case. Sanders is the only politician mentioned in March Against Monsanto, another article mentioned in the case. The new trade agreement which Sanders opposes, TPP, prohibits GMO labelling.

Jytdog has recently begun editing this article, for example here and . In the latter edit he added, "He has opposed free trade agreements...." He does not mention that Sanders says it is not a free trade agreement and provides a link to the free trade article. He has not edited articles for any other presidential candidates.

This seems to me to be an example of continuing to edit a subject as closely related to GMO as possible, without overtly crossing the line.

TFD (talk) 21:40, 20 January 2016 (UTC)

I notice that the enwiki database shows Jytdog made 93 edits to "March Against Monsanto," so I assume he is aware of its contents.

While it has been deleted, Jytdog posted, "My comments have been purely focused on Sanders' stances on trade and competitiveness generally and not on any single sector of the economy. (fwiw as he is doing so well I became curious about his positions on the economy and when I read our article on him, I found it to say little to nothing about anything other than economic inequality." The discussion thread started by Jytdog at the Sanders article begins, "I have been wondering what Sanders has to do say about promoting the competitiveness of the American economy and i have found nothing anywhere (not in Wiki nor without)." It is an odd posting from an experienced editor. Normally one would do a little research first and made or recommend the addition of material. The first editor to reply saw it as soapboxing.

By "discrediting Sanders" I was referring to my earlier reply to Jytdog, "we should not link to free trade, because it implies they are free trade in the way it is normally understood." In the first source you added (PBS), TPP was not referred to as a free trade agreement. Nor was it in the second (Punditfact). And in the source already in the article, written by Sanders, he says, "This is not "free trade."" And I pointed out in the talk page, "I note btw that Sanders says these are not free trade agreements, so saying he has voted against all free trade agreements is injecting your personal interpretation."

TFD (talk) 23:08, 20 January 2016 (UTC)

@Kelapstick:, I agree with AlbinoFerret about the ban "including biographical pages about persons involved in these topics." Sanders introduced the amendment to allow state requirement of GMO labeling. An article in the pro-GMO Genetic Literacy Project (GLP) says, "an example of a politician who still needs to overcome the knee-jerk reflex to be against food biotechnology is Sen. Bernie Sanders. He is chosen here as an example, because his presidential campaign makes him the most visible politician who is strongly against GMOs, and because he takes strong positions in favor of science on all issues apart from agricultural biotechnology." The GLP is financed by the Searle Freedom Trust, that supports a number of U.S. conservative thinktanks and organizations that oppose climate change science, state funded health care, etc. The site also says Bernie Sanders (and Hillary Clinton, although here opposition was more recent) oppose the TPP and then says GMO opponents are mistaken in their view that the treaty would prevent GMO labeling. TFD (talk) 04:46, 21 January 2016 (UTC)

@Jytdog:, it is not that Sanders' trade policy discredits him, but saying he opposes free trade when he has not said that does. It is synthesis: Sanders says he opposes the TPP etc., another source says they are free trade agreements, therefore Sanders opposes free trade agreements. And the restriction on editing articles "about persons involved in " would seem to include "the most visible politician who is strongly against GMOs." The reasoning is that discrediting anti-GMO advocates discredits anti-GMO advocacy.

These agreements are btw related to GMO, since they allow the export of U.S. GMO grains, and may protect them against GMO labelling, which the GMO industry opposes. The U.S. Grains Council for example says that tariffs on U.S. corn exports will be eliminated. 9 0% of U.S. corn in GMO.

TFD (talk) 15:47, 21 January 2016 (UTC)

@Kelapstick:, while I appreciate that Sanders is most notable as a politician, he is also notable for his opposition to GMO or, as the GLP says, he is the most visible politician who is strongly against GMOs. That meets the criterion of being involved in these topics. He is mentioned in March Against Monsanto and Farmer Assurance Provision (aka "Monsanto Protection Act"). A Google news search of "Bernie Sanders"+"GMO" gets 26,000 results. Among the first of the articles, "Bernie Sanders promises to protect organic farming and denounces Monsanto", "Sanders, Murkowski vow to block appointment of FDA commissioner over GMO salmon, drug prices", "Can Bernie Sanders act like a progressive on GMOs, overcome tribal allegiances, embrace science?" "Hillary vs. Bernie on Frankenfood", "Bernie Sanders claims CBS canceled interview on rBGH after Monsanto threatened lawsuit", "Bernie Sanders Calls Out Monsanto for Killing His GMO Labeling Amendment."

Statement by AlbinoFerret

--kelapstick, but isnt the Locus of the dispute tied to the broadly construed part of the ban? Section 4.2.1 Locus of the dispute says "The dispute centers on pages about genetically modified organisms (GMOs), agricultural biotechnology, and agricultural chemicals, including biographical pages about persons involved in these topics...." AlbinoFerret 23:57, 20 January 2016 (UTC)

As far as the hounding goes, I watch this page, not because of one editor, but because I have contributed to a few arbocm cases. Thats likely the reason others have made comments here as well. What brought me to this page this last time was the Mystery Wolff section below and I noticed the GMO section above it. All this talk of hounding is just casting WP:ASPERSIONS. Like there is some kind of anti-Jytdog secret cabal just waiting for the chance. Something that many editors who have or had a section on this page seems to add at one point or another when multiple editors see a problem. AlbinoFerret 18:00, 22 January 2016 (UTC)

Callanecc, --kelapstick, Kirill Lokshin, and Doug Weller part of the findings of the GMO case is section 4.3.6 Jytdog is admonished for their poor civility in relation to the locus of this case. With this edit Jytdog has chosen to disregard that warning. and has focused on Me and not content or issues WP:FOC The comments of "lame" and "sloppy" and criticizing my post to another editor (S Marshall) are very troubling considering the warning he received. That this also happens in a section on topic with that warning raises the concern. AlbinoFerret 18:53, 22 January 2016 (UTC)

pinging kelapstick separately as the first ping was bad and not all the rest again. AlbinoFerret 18:55, 22 January 2016 (UTC)

Instead of recognising the problem, he compounds it. AlbinoFerret 19:22, 22 January 2016 (UTC)

Statement by Petrarchan47

From what I understood, Jytdog's ban should cover articles on companies like Monsanto, not only GMOs. A glance at the Sanders pages for the word GMO is not sufficient in this case.

Jytdog should not be editing pages of strong advocates for or against Monsanto and GE technology. For this reason, Bernie Sanders' articles should be off limits to Jytdog based on his topic ban.

It is well known that Sanders is a huge thorn* in their side. Consider:

Questions about agribusiness and genetically-modified food are not unusual at Sanders events, but on Saturday night the Vermont senator claimed his criticism of the industry and Monsanto’s objection caused CBS to cancel an interview:

"Monsanto is a very, very powerful corporation. They are one of the leaders in food technology and basically working hard to transform our food system. Let me tell you a funny story, or not so funny. In my state, a great dairy state, we have a lot of dairy cows. There was an effort to put what was called BGH, bovine growth hormone, which is a stimulant that makes cows produce cows more milk but is unhealthy. I was against that.

"I’ll never forget this. I was invited by CBS, not a small company, to appear on television to talk about why I was opposed to bovine growth hormone. CBS then called me up and said, ‘Well, Monsanto is threatening to sue us, so we can’t go on with it.’ They are very powerful."*

Consider too: Bernie on GMOs and the TPP

The TPP Protects Companies like Monsanto....a corporation thus becomes an "Investor State" with rights that supersede governments' (and people's) rights, including the right to label GMOs.

Jytdog should not be editing content related to trade agreements that have a massive, direct impact on Monsanto, the biotech industry and the spread of GM foods. petrarchan47คุก 02:04, 22 January 2016 (UTC)

Statement by David Tornheim

First I agree that Bernie Sanders is at least somewhat related to GMO's because of his unique views compared on GMO's relative to other major candidates, to about the same level as GMO's are related to Agent Orange. Jytdog has show prejudice against anyone he labelled "anti-GMO". On the Bernie Sanders page, he is now into a dispute with Gandydancer an editor who I believe left the GMO pages largely because of Jytdog's behavior, where she says, "this has been a very unpleasant experience" diff. Although Gandydancer said she did not think the T-ban should apply here, IMHO seeing responses like this is a further reason the t-ban should apply to his behavior on this article. But I would like ArbCom to consider more of this editors history at ArbCom and on WIkipedia in making its ruling and answering this editor's request, such as his behavior at COI that was brought to ArbCom's attention and lead to admonishment by one or more ArbCom members. (to be continued) --David Tornheim (talk) 06:22, 22 January 2016 (UTC)

Statement by Gandydancer

Some editors have presented some very interesting information above and now I can see why Monsanto would be very eager to discredit Sanders. BTW, I note below it is said, "There is no mention of GMOs in either his article, or his presidential campaign article." Actually there is a section on GMO labeling in his positions article. Gandydancer (talk) 15:03, 22 January 2016 (UTC)

When Jytdog says that I edited the article per his wishes he is not being very honest. He was told again and again that the use of the term fair trade was not appropriate and that the problem was in no way connected to including the names of the trade agreements but to the use of the term fair trade. And yet he just ignored any comments related to the use of the term free trade even to including it in the final suggestion he made before threatening to bring it to a dispute resolution process. Jytdog is not dumb. He knows very well that there is a huge difference in saying that Sanders is against certain trade agreements and Sanders is against fair trade. Gandydancer (talk) 16:18, 22 January 2016 (UTC)

Statement by JzG

Bernie Sanders has spouted anti-GMO bollocks, so that requires care on Jytdog's part. Frankly if I were him I would leave well alone. There are loads of other articles to edit and enough people who are after Jytdog's blood and will spend their lives dragging every marginal call to this board that it's probably better to stay clear in the interests of a quiet life. Guy (Help!) 17:28, 22 January 2016 (UTC)

Statement by {other-editor}

Genetically modified organisms: Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Genetically modified organisms: Arbitrator views and discussion

• As far as I'm concerned:

• Leaving it there as is isn't a TBAN violation - as it was there before your topic ban was imposed.
• I guess removing it is technically a TBAN violation, but seriously, who cares - given the spirit of the TBAN is to get people to walk away, removing it is really following the 'spirit' of the ban just not the letter (and I strongly doubt anyone would have a problem with you removing things from your user page).
• Editing/changing it is a TBAN violation since it's not following the letter or the 'spirit' of the TBAN, though blocking for that would probably be a little extreme depending on circumstances.

Regarding the other part of your questions, it's up to you what you remove and what you keep, but your suggestion re removing first section and keeping second section seems reasonable to me. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 12:05, 20 January 2016 (UTC)

@Jytdog: Just noting that I added the bit in brackets in the 2nd dot point to make it clearer. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 13:46, 20 January 2016 (UTC)

• What Callanecc said with regards to your userpage. The Four Deuces, if none of the content that Jytdog is related to the topic ban, than there is no violation. Regardless of Sanders stance on GMOs. --kelapstick 23:16, 20 January 2016 (UTC)

• I think this the Bernie Sanders question is stretching the limits of broadly construed. There is no mention of GMOs in either his article, or his presidential campaign article. He's not notable as either a pro or anti-GMO activist, he's notable as a politician. So unless the material being edited is directly related to GMOs, the topic ban does not apply. --kelapstick 20:05, 21 January 2016 (UTC)

• Agree with Callanecc. Kirill Lokshin (talk) 23:42, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
• As do I. As for Bernie Sanders, we've always said that if an article is not basically about the subject of the topic ban, it can be edited provided that the edits don't touch anything related to the topic ban. Doug Weller talk 18:33, 22 January 2016 (UTC)

Clarification request: Editor conduct in e-cigs articles

Initiated by Mystery Wolff at 11:19, 21 January 2016 (UTC)

Case or decision affected

Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Editor conduct in e-cigs articles

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:

• Mystery Wolff (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)

Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request

Statement by Mystery Wolff

1. Regarding the Arbcom outcome. It states:

Enforcement of restrictions: 0) Should any user subject to a restriction in this case violate that restriction, that user may be blocked, initially for up to one month, and then with blocks increasing in duration to a maximum of one year.

Clarification is sought on how this works. Specifically in a case where other dispute resolutions options are not used, and an editor brings AE Requests. SHALL the outcome of the first event be no greater than 30 days? If the answer is Yes please state. If the answer is NO, please clarify what the language means.

2. Is the outcome of the Arbcom that all issues with Dispute Resolution needs with first be visited to the for AE requests? That the AE is the only Dispute Resolution option for all pages covered by the Arbcom? If not, what are the expectations of how Dispute Resolution should be handled for pages subject to Discretionary Sanctions?

3. For Appeals of AE decisions premised upon Arbcom (or otherwise) Should Admins who were involved with the original decision be participating in the Appeals process as "judges" i.e. Is the documented Appeals process to be carried out only by Admins who did not participate in the first AE?

4. Who determines if an Administrator is "involved" with editors in the AE. Is there any process. When should the determination of such be made?

5. Is the Closing Admin, expected or actually required to make a statement after the Appeal to the AE is made. If they refuse to comment or answer questions, can that then be used to show that the AE was determined improperly, and thus if the Closing Admin refuses to respond, SHALL the case then be resolved in the favor of the requesting editor.

Thank you for your Clarifications in advance. Mystery Wolff (talk) 11:19, 21 January 2016 (UTC)

Statement by {other-editor}

Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.

Editor conduct in e-cigs articles: Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Editor conduct in e-cigs articles: Arbitrator views and discussion

• Clarification is sought on how this works. Specifically in a case where other dispute resolutions options are not used, and an editor brings AE Requests. SHALL the outcome of the first event be no greater than 30 days? If the answer is Yes please state. If the answer is NO, please clarify what the language means.
  • No, the section you link to only deals with the enforcement of sanctions imposed by ArbCom (for instance, editor A gets indefinitely topic banned by ArbCom, he violates his restriction and is reported to AE, assuming it's his first violation the admins there can only block him for up to one month). Those provisions do not apply to admins imposing discretionary sanctions.
• Is the outcome of the Arbcom that all issues with Dispute Resolution needs with first be visited to the for AE requests? That the AE is the only Dispute Resolution option for all pages covered by the Arbcom? If not, what are the expectations of how Dispute Resolution should be handled for pages subject to Discretionary Sanctions?
  • Basically, any editor is free to choose whatever dispute resolution method he thinks will be best suited to solve a dispute, provided he is acting in good faith.
• For Appeals of AE decisions premised upon Arbcom (or otherwise) Should Admins who were involved with the original decision be participating in the Appeals process as "judges" i.e. Is the documented Appeals process to be carried out only by Admins who did not participate in the first AE?
  • Only the admin who imposed the sanction being appealed is considered involved, those who have expressed an opinion but did not directly impose the sanction are not considered involved.
• Who determines if an Administrator is "involved" with editors in the AE. Is there any process. When should the determination of such be made?
  • In the first instance, you should ask the admin in question to refrain from acting on account of his involvement; if he doesn't comply, you can ask the other administrators commenting in the AE thread; if they disagree, it is up to those who hear the appeal and, finally, to ArbCom.
• Is the Closing Admin, expected or actually required to make a statement after the Appeal to the AE is made. If they refuse to comment or answer questions, can that then be used to show that the AE was determined improperly, and thus if the Closing Admin refuses to respond, SHALL the case then be resolved in the favor of the requesting editor.
  • No. Admins are free to, and ought to comment during appeals, in keeping with the spirit of WP:ADMINACCT, but the fact they choose not to is not grounds for the case to be resolved in favour of the appealing editor. Salvio 12:36, 21 January 2016 (UTC)
• Agree with Salvio. Kirill Lokshin (talk) 00:28, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
• What Salvio said. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 03:09, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
• Thanks to Salvio for a clear concise reply. Which of course I agree with. Doug Weller talk 18:34, 22 January 2016 (UTC)

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