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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Netoholic (talk | contribs) at 23:35, 11 November 2004 (restoring my comments and formatting). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Revision as of 23:35, 11 November 2004 by Netoholic (talk | contribs) (restoring my comments and formatting)(diff) ← Previous revision | Latest revision (diff) | Newer revision → (diff)

2004 U.S. Election controversies and irregularities

This has been a tough one for me to do. I'm normally quite leary of the VfD process, but I think we need to confirm some of our principles here. Let me start out by saying this is not about partisan issues - it is about how we at Misplaced Pages want to handle "current events" and the danger of doing so.

This article was split off from a section in U.S. presidential election, 2004 into it's own page. Unfortunately, that move has opened it up to massive expansion - overshadowing the real impact of this issue as reported in external sources.

Please do not use this vote to debate the sides of the issue. The problem as I see it is in the approach this article is taking. The way this article stands, it seems to only be here as a "conclusion searching for evidence" and we are simply adding to an internet blog rumor mill by performing our own "investigation".

A summary of the problem points (more expansion on these given on its Talk page):

  • Misplaced Pages:Verifiability - that the "raw data" used comes from dubious sources (partisan websites, blogs, and even, yes, images uploaded to ImageShack with no traceability). Remove that, and we are left with is a collection of scattered, unlinked reports of problems which are typical of all elections.
  • Misplaced Pages:No original research - some of our editors have produced charts and graphs based on the dubious data. Statistical analysis is outside our scope. It is our responsibility to summarize the conclusions of others, not to formulate them. This article is nothing but an essay.
  • Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view - from the article title to the content, this page draws a conclusion for our readers that there is a conspiracy, rather than problems faced during most elections.
  • Misplaced Pages is not a mere collection of external links - This article is essentially linking to every minor report and rumor on the 'net. While there is "nothing wrong with adding both lists of links and lists of on-line references you used", this article is not using those links as references, but rather as evidence of its conclusions.

I ask that it be deleted, so that outside agencies do not use the bold speculation of a few of our editors as corroborating evidence. Making the history of the article unavailable is the only sure way to do that. We can start over by re-adding a summary of the speculations to the main election article in a responsible way. -- Netoholic @ 20:01, 2004 Nov 11 (UTC)



Delete

  1. Netoholic @ 20:01, 2004 Nov 11 (UTC) -- I myself am on the side of Kerry, and am reasonably sure some irregularities happened - but no more than other elections and not enough to warrant this article.
  2. Alex Krupp 20:15, Nov 11, 2004 (UTC)-- I added up the numbers the primary author of this article cites for Collier county myself based on the source listed, and they don't even match correctly. I like the concept of having this article, but I agree with Netoholic that Misplaced Pages is the wrong place for original research. Perhaps WikiNews, if it is created, would be a better source for an article like this one.
  3. Uncleanupable, and therefore without potential to become encyclopedic - just getting the link for this off of Template:In the news caused a massive revert war on the main page involving at least two admins. See history starting at 17:27, Nov 10, 2004, when Neutrality made the addition. - RedWordSmith 20:59, Nov 11, 2004 (UTC)
  4. Is Misplaced Pages supposed to be an activist, partisan website? Because even those who want to keep the article seem to want to do so because it's "an important story" that the "major media" isn't covering. Put the page up next month, when the issues have all been resolved. Three quarters of the assertions are unatributed opinion without any citation or link. The statements that ARE cited come from unreliable, partisan internet websites. I'm sorry, but democraticunderground and commondreams are not wikipedia quality resources.


Merge

  1. Significant portions of this article relate directly only to electronic voting and should be moved there. This would significantly reduce the size of this page, and allow the information pertaining directly to the 2004 Election controversies be covered here. Much of the background research provided here does not belong. In addition, the POV of what remains truly needs to be cleaned up.

--Radioastro 22:15, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)


Keep

  1. Keep and clean the article of original research. This is certainly something that has gained national attention. (Not as much as 2000, of course). Just monitor this article closely and make sure it stays out of the realm of original research, and within the realm of verifiability. —siroχo 20:16, Nov 11, 2004 (UTC)
  2. Based on the criterion on Misplaced Pages:Deletion_policy, deleting this entire page is an absolutely unreasonable response to contested content. The entire page does not warrant deletion, in that the ONLY criterion voiced as {potentially} applicable in the 'May Require Deletion' section is thus far 'Original Research', which can of course be addressed in process. Methods and Processes exist for discussing the issues intelligently (esp. scrubbing invalid, original research), and opting for deletion is not a reasoned response to the natural differences in interpretation and opinions that make up this Wiki article. Honestly, I think this request is ill-considered. (this unsigned vote was left by anon User:66.108.161.196)
  3. Keep. This article constitutes original research, and it needs to be gutted and torn apart. However there is some valid information here, so it shouldn't be deleted. Rhobite 20:23, Nov 11, 2004 (UTC)
  4. Keep, but rewrite in an NPOV fashion. RickK 20:25, Nov 11, 2004 (UTC)
  5. Kevin Baas | talk 20:26, 2004 Nov 11 (UTC)
  6. Keep, the article is not original research as FT2 explains in depth on the talk page. Some clean up is warranted. There seemingly has been a systematic attempt to damage various aspects of the article using every "wikipedia trick in the book" for the last 18 hours or so. Zen Master 20:33, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  7. Keep. Important and interesting issue. The article could benefit from some cleanup and should be checked for NPOV problems. Martg76 20:57, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  8. Keep. This article constitutes original research, and it needs to be reviewed. But in a world without a paper trail, math or Stat proof is all that is available and with the results of the math now being done this article has potential to become encyclopedic. There is valid information here, so it shouldn't be deleted. user:papau
  9. Keep, but clean up. This is indeed a national issue, and is real. The article right now is a bit of a mess, but far from irrecoverable. This falls in with Netoholic's all-or-nothing attitude about this article in other areas as well (see his bid to delete the Controversial3 template). --Spud603 21:12, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  10. Keep the article but, once this foolish VfD listing is disposed of, move it to 2004 U.S. election voting controversies. There's been discussion on the article's talk page about the title. Improper capitalization should be removed; the addition of "voting" is to exclude controversies like the bulge under Bush's jacket in the debate. As for the substance, the subject obviously merits an article. It's been extensively discussed in the media. Ralph Nader has formally demanded a recount in New Hampshire, based in part on one of the issues addressed in the article, the discrepancies between exit polls and Diebold machine results. (I'll add this to the article.) Concerns that particular portions of the article might constitute original research or otherwise be inappropriate should be addressed through comments on the talk page and through RfC, both of which are already in progress. JamesMLane 21:17, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  11. Keep. The article is well researched, and this information needs to be known, ESPECIALLY with the mainstream media burying the story.
  12. Keep.kizzle 21:20, Nov 11, 2004 (UTC)
  13. Keep. I found the article to be useful and it's certainly a valid topic. Most of the objections raised by the submitter could be addressed by sending this article to cleanup. —Psychonaut 21:26, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  14. Keep, but needs some work, especially in POV. Some of this could qualify as "original research,"; (and needs to be fixed in that regard) but the article itself is not entirely such. NiceGuyJoey 21:29, Nov 11, 2004 (UTC)
  15. Keep. If (and IMO 'when') the election fraud issue is resolved, the pertinence of the page will become eminently clear. In the meantime, that there is a conflict is certainly on topic for a reference site. Yes, it needs some work. Yes, finding someone relatively neutral to shepherd that work won't be easy. No, those two things taken together do *not*, IMO, constitute a valid reason to delete the page. Does Misplaced Pages really want to contribute to "History is written by the winners"? Baylink 21:37, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  16. Keep. Definitely...Problems were widely expected before the election, so it is important to have an article that describes what did and did not cause problems. This should be done without original research and in accordance with the NPOV policy. If you think that the article contents violates these policies, modify it, but I cannot understand how one can believe that deletion is the way to solve this problem. — David Remahl 21:40, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  17. VfD is a bad place to make editorial decision. The question is not the article is good or bad, but is whehther we need a parmanent deletion for some particular reason like copyright-vio. -- Taku 22:24, Nov 11, 2004 (UTC)
  18. Keep. It is very important to keep this article on here, when the mainstream media will not cover it. It's the truth and nothing but. MinnyBean 22:36, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  19. Keep. anthony 警告 21:26, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  20. FT2 22:39, Nov 11, 2004 (UTC)
  21. Keep: This is important information not readily available elsewhere. [[User:Hollymark|Hollymark) (moved to correct location)
  22. Keep. If the data is inaccurate someone should fix them. However, these are ongoing events and with any ongoing event there is alway inaccuracies and misinformation. To not cover these stories, correct or incorrect, would be to go against the spirit of Misplaced Pages in my view. --Butter 23:12, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)


Comments (discussion on the issue itself to the article's Talk page please)

  • This VfD isn't formatted in the regular way, and some possible choices, such as redirect, aren't listed. Should someone reformat it? Rhobite 20:23, Nov 11, 2004 (UTC)
    • Choices on VfD are either Delete the article and history, or Keep and make suggested fixes (merge, redirect, etc.). This format makes votes on either side of that line easier to tally. -- Netoholic @ 20:27, 2004 Nov 11 (UTC)
      • We shouldn't be focussing on tallying vote counts, we should be focussing on reaching consensus. anthony 警告 21:30, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
        • I'm pretty sure we can't.  :-{ Baylink 21:37, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • I agree with Anthony about consensus. The VfD is diverting energy from the normal process of improving the article. When Netoholic was urged to raise his concerns on the article's talk page, he responded: "I've tried that in the sections above. Now users are re-adding those sections and dubious data and removing my disputed tags. That is why I have lost patience with this group. I have requested outside comment on this article, and if that does not work, then I will ask for deletion of this partisan junk." His RfC had been posted at 17:59. Netoholic then made this VfD listing at 20:01. Apparently, he "lost patience" with the RfC process about two hours after he began it. JamesMLane 21:40, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • If you refer to the actual talk pages and user history pages in question you will see that Netoholic's claims about engaging in debate are simply false, he engaged in absolutely no debate and acted unilaterally with the full knowledge that others disagreed with him and played games damaging all aspects and sub aspects of the page. He only went through the semblence of debate after he was rebuked and many noticed his actions. His history and the timeline of events can convince you more than anything I can say here. Zen Master 22:02, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • If I may, I think the unsigned keep vote above is very telling: "this information needs to be known, ESPECIALLY with the mainstream media burying the story." People, however well intentioned, seem to be confusing us with Indymedia. We're not. We're not a news sources. We're not a forum for debate. We are trying to build a freely available encylopedia. There's an article on electronic voting that could use some solid NPOV editing with general information on the subject. This doesn't help. - RedWordSmith 21:52, Nov 11, 2004 (UTC)
    • There is nothing to say that we must only listen to "conventional" news media either. There is nothing that says that we should value conventional media information higher than community-driven media either. — David Remahl 21:56, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
    • I don't agree with this request for deletion, but I agree with Netoholic that certain users are making it hard to remove POV from the article. Rhobite 21:59, Nov 11, 2004 (UTC)
  • Do we need to organize the votes? There appear to be two additional votes for 'keep' outside the Keep/Delete structure (Anthony's and possibly the one below this comment).
    • Also, the comments that the opinions are 'activist' and 'partisan' are erroneous and do not contribute to the dialogue. Posting information that has not been disproven which demonstrates irregularity in favor of a certain candidate, especially in the absence of evidence of similar irregularity favoring the other candidate, is not activism or partisan, it's the ongoing effort to separate truth from fiction. My apologies if this comment is in the wrong location/page. (66.108.161.196)
(correction-this article was at no time a split off - FT2)'

VANDALISM ALERT - VOTES HAVE BEEN DELETED PLEASE BE WATCHFUL

AND CHECK RECENT HISTORY


VANDALS TO WATCH FOR - Farmgirl


Summary of opposing view:

The Article
The reasons for VfD are incorrect - the article and its sources:
(1) Meets "Verifiability" in a big way - sources are House Committee letters, Federal Expert testimony, Official poll results, etc
(2) Meets "Cite Sources" guidelines in respect of any weblogs or other less formal sources
(3) Is explicitly within the terms of "Original research". Not only the article does not propose any original idea, but also the guideline states specifically:
"However all of the above constitute acceptable content once they have become a permanent feature of the public landscape, for example if ... the ideas have become newsworthy they have been repeatedly and independently documented..."
(4) Advocates no position but merely states evidence (to which opposing evidence can be added).
Talk page consensus: "The neutrality criteria is (1) that the information contained must be accurate capable of verification, and must be sourced, and (2) that evidence of irregularities and evidence that there were not irregularities are both fairly represented.
... Should any person on either side wish to add any kind of evidence that the election was not in fact irregular, evidence that the voting machines were in fact not subject to irregularities, evidence that any item on this article is inaccurate, or evidence that any expert statement is implausible and suspect, then that should be added to this article."
(5) In respect of "a mere collection of rumors":
To describe matters that respected House Committee members saw fit to write not one but two letters within 4 days to the GOA expressing alarm, where Federal Hearings have heard expert testimony as to the seriousness and potential for these issues, which can be found in the reputable printed national papers of many countries, where many thousands of individual American voters have stated they witnessed incidents that suggested the same personally, and where official data of the US government itself suggests an significant issue, as "a mere collection of links", "every minor rumor" and "partisan junk" might suggest Netoholic is highly partial in this matter.
Netoholic
The proposer of this VfD, has been entering revert wars, and on the evidence it appears this VfD is being used as vandalism on spurious grounds, having tried to both edit it to remove credibility and impose unilateral changes outside consensus. From WP:TFD (concerning deletion of the template used to indicate that some parts were disputed, some were agreed):
Also ... This may be a pattern, Netoholic also listed election controversy images for deletion without talk page mention. Netoholic removed links to the page from other articles without mention, attempted to orphan the page when at least a half a dozen people disagreed with him. And now the page itself is listed for deletion, there is little doubt there is a systematic pattern. After others have catogorically rejected his interpretation of wikipedia guideliness he proceeds anyway. In my opinion he has not bothered with consensus building or debate, which has worked against him because some of his claims are valid -- ZenMaster
He also has a history of controversial edit and deletion views and his judgement, accuracy and unilateral major edits have been questioned on more than a few occasions by sysops and others: (Source: User_talk:Netoholic)
Notes and evidence of the above related to this VfD and issues raised will be added under the vote, if needed. FT2 22:39, Nov 11, 2004 (UTC)