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Did'nt mean to get in any dispute, just citing sourced material
The long and auspicious history of India has it's roots going back to the establishment of the first university in the world some 2700 years ago, at Takshshila.
Thanks for the kind words, CiteCop. I'm not really privy to the dispute which I think exists here , all I know is I'm citing sourced material. Please allow the sourced content to stay in it's present form.
I hope you guys get to solve your dispute soon, since you seem to have worked hard on the article. Freedom skies 19:29, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
- Unfortunately, Freedom skies, the dispute revolved around the description of Taxila as the "oldest" or "first" university that you just re-inserted. The first paper's source for that claim is a website of, shall we say, questionable scholarly rigor. And the second merely describes it as the earliest of the ancient Indian universities.
- Also, that material you just added regarding astronomy and such, I'm going to remove it and ask you for the sources for those claims.
- Also, I have a fairly reliable source that credits atomism not to Pakhuda Katyayana, but to Kanada, another ancient Indian philosopher, so come up with a source for that, and we can see which one is more credible.
- Regards
- CiteCop 19:37, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
Pakistani nationalism too mentions that Takshashila is the oldest university according to some authors. You can pick references from there too.nids(♂) 19:45, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
- The Pakistani nationalism entry cites the same sources for Taxila that the Indian nationalism page used to and, as demonstrated above, neither of the sources cited verifies the claim that Taxila is "regarded by many historians as the world's oldest university".
CiteCop 20:22, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
Modern day Pakistan was a part of ancient India, they have every right to feel proud about the histories of the geographical area ceded to the some 60 years ago.
The first paper's source for that claim is a website of, shall we say, questionable scholarly rigor.
It's an academic source from a reputed university, I will bring in more sources in addition to this one in the next few hours of similar academic nature though.
Also, that material you just added regarding astronomy and such, I'm going to remove it and ask you for the sources for those claims.
Would be glad to, these links were already provided there. Those articles are sourced too.
and who removed Reiki ???
Anyways, the articles I cited are completely sourced, which should protect them from being removed, I'll bring in more such papers, especially of takshshila, as soon as I get time, which should be very soon.
I realize I walked in an ongoing tussle/debate, my idea is to just add sourced material, and keep personal POVs and opinions out of Misplaced Pages artilcles, not to take sides.
Freedom skies 07:18, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
- As I have said above, this entire debate about sources is pointless, as this article is not the appropriate place for this discussion. We need to be discussing the evolution or imposition of a certain common consciousness for the people now called Indian. Worrying about Taxila is, frankly, peripheral. Hornplease 07:51, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
I'm of Indian heritage, My family also owns a home in India, on going there one sees Takshshila often comes up as a source of Pride within the Indian youth, it's one of the things that form nationalist sentiment there and the list is about mentioning things Indians take pride in.
Anyways, I realize that people have personal opinions, and from what I see, removing sourced text means that they have strong personal opinions, just don't let it interfere with the sourced portions of the article, people. Resolve your disputes here, in the talk page that Jimbo Wales intended for this purpose, or give each other ids and chat on Yahoo real time to reach an agreement, if your altercations result in personal POVs removing sourced material, it can't be good.Freedom skies 08:09, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
- Thank you for your reply to my suggestion. However, your personal experience is inadmissible as an argument. If you can cite a mainstream academic work suggesting that knowledge of these achievements is central to the development of Indian national consciousness, I will withdraw my concerns. Until then, my point stands. Hornplease 08:21, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
The facts themselves have been cited, a citation by Stephen Cohen, as follows :-
The specter of collapse has passed and India is emerging as a major Asian power, joining China and Japan. The 1998 nuclear tests in the Rajasthan desert that announced India's entry into the nuclear club only served to underscore the nation's new stature. India has begun economic reforms that promise at last to realize its vast economic potential. It possesses the world's third largest army. It occupies a strategic position at the crossroads of the Persian Gulf, Central Asia, and Southeast Asia. Its population, which crossed the one billion mark this year, may surpass China's within two decades. It is the site of one of the world's oldest civilizations, a powerful influence throughout Asia for thousands of years, and for the last 53 years, against all odds, it has maintained a functioning democracy.
Should be enough for a lot of questions, people of Indian heritage and nationality take pride in these achievenments, cited by world renowed professors like Stephen Cohen.
The other citation is http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/literature/articles/sen/, self explainatory.
- I am not arguing with any of those citations. However, how is this relevant to the first section, which deals with ancient Indian achievements - not even the beliefs surrounding those achievements, but the records of those achievements? I repeat, If you can cite a mainstream academic work suggesting that knowledge of these ancient achievements is central to the development of Indian national consciousness, I will withdraw my concerns. Until then, my point stands, still unrefuted. Hornplease 05:52, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
- Again, it's interesting that you don;t raise the same concerns on Pakistani nationalism.Shiva's Trident 08:07, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
- I am not arguing with any of those citations. However, how is this relevant to the first section, which deals with ancient Indian achievements - not even the beliefs surrounding those achievements, but the records of those achievements? I repeat, If you can cite a mainstream academic work suggesting that knowledge of these ancient achievements is central to the development of Indian national consciousness, I will withdraw my concerns. Until then, my point stands, still unrefuted. Hornplease 05:52, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
As for Takshashila, I have provided a mention directly from Government of Pakistan, which should be good enough for anybody.Freedom skies 09:57, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
- It's an academic source from a reputed university
- If you look carefully at its footnotes, you'll see that its source for the "first university in the world" claim is, in fact, a questionable website.
- a mention directly from Government of Pakistan, which should be good enough for anybody.
- Because governments never lie? Especially when it comes to matters of national pride?
- The ideal source for this statement would be a cross-cultural survey of education in the ancient world, i.e. one that examined higher education in Egypt, Babylon, China, Persia, Greece, etc instead of just India alone.
- The same goes for the scientific claims. One such cross-cultural survey credits atomism not to Pakudha Katyayana—whose name, incidentally, does not appear in any of Subhash Kak's papers cited for the claim, nor does the word "sapekshavadam," nor do those quotes from Aryabhata and A.L. Basham—but to a different ancient Indian philosopher, Kanada.
- As for Subhash Kak's papers, I have consulted multiple histories of astronomy and none of them concur with Kak's conclusions. After doing a little more research on the professor, it appears that his ideas about the history of science are considered well outside of the academic mainstream.
- One thing to keep in mind about papers from arxiv is that they do not undergo editorial vetting and fact-checking like an academic journal or a scholarly press would submit them to.
- Regards,
- CiteCop 02:04, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Because governments never lie? Especially when it comes to matters of national pride?
Then Cite it that they do in case of Taxila and it's not your personal feelings talking and removing sourced text. Since you have consulted sources, it should'nt be that hard to pull off.
I have consulted multiple histories of astronomy and none of them concur with Kak's conclusions.
I go to a university too, I have consulted many historians and they speak highly about other historians not place them in exile.
As for the extent of this thought, Albert Einstien's quote, "We owe a lot to Indians, who taught us how to count, without which no worthwhile scientific discovery could have been made." , your sources more verifiable that the man himself ???
Personal judgement of official sources and academic websites is Not good enough for removing sourced texts. It does'nt cut it
If it interferse with any past disagreements people have had here, too bad. But the authority here is an official government website, the other is a website by a professor. Get a citation that they are lying specifically on this matter and maybe we can move forward, the removal of an academic source and a government mention just because an editor feels like it, is unwarrented.
Saying that the government is lying and the prof is an exile does outline the past disagreements that editors have had over this issue, but no matter how strong personal feelings get sourced text must remain, as Jimbo wales intended it to, Misplaced Pages is not a place for personal emotions to interfere with academic or offical sources, it's a place to for citing sourced, verifiable information, not a soapbox for personal emotions.
Thanks for the active participation though. Freedom skies 11:34, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
- Like I said, I would like to know specifically, where does it say :-
- That the government of Pakistan has fallen under controversy or even faced dispute for calling a 700 years old university the oldest in the world.
- That all academics lie when they cite information about maths from the Rig Veda, with specific mentions and everything, I'm sure it's not too hard to find an english copy of Rigveda in a library and check them out for your self, the sutras and everything. The prof has done so, and I've cited him.Freedom skies 11:50, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
- Like I said, I would like to know specifically, where does it say :-
- On an additional note, I (as a physicist) can attest to the legitimacy of arxiv articles' effective peer review process. The way it works is that peers see the articles, point out errata (if any) to the author and the author corrects it in errata of subsequent reposts (see this:
physics/9903010 : Title: Concepts of Space, Time, and Consciousness in Ancient India Authors: Subhash Kak Comments: 14 pages; with minor corrections and a few additional references Subj-class: History of Physics; Popular Physics Journal-ref: In S. Kak, "The Wishing Tree", 2001 (Munshiram Manoharlal, New Delhi, ISBN: 81-215-1032-5.)
Plus, the paper is published in a traditional peer-review journal also.Shiva's Trident 11:59, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
- Freedom skies,
- Likewise, there is no need to get defensive of become emotional over what is a conflict about sources.
- What I am questioning the notion that a government source is ever "good enough for anybody" or should ever be the final word.
- If you'll look above I consulted one source specifically about the history of Taxila and another text devoted to education in ancient India, precisely the kind of source one would expect to confirm the claim "first university in the world" and they did not.
- I have consulted multiple histories of astronomy and none of them concur with Kak's conclusions.
- I go to a university too, I have consulted many historians and they speak highly about other historians not place them in exile.
- What's with all this talk about "exile"? I was saying that multiple sources on the history of astronomy conflict with Kak's claims.
- As for the extent of this thought, Albert Einstien's quote, "We owe a lot to Indians, who taught us how to count, without which no worthwhile scientific discovery could have been made." , your sources more verifiable that the man himself ???
- I am not questioning the scientific prowess of ancient Indians. I'm questioning whether they ought to be ascribed with the specific achievements that you list.
- By the way, if you can source it, that quote would make a great addition to this section.
- Get a citation that they are lying specifically on this matter and maybe we can move forward, the removal of an academic source and a government mention just because an editor feels like it, is unwarrented.
- sourced text must remain, as Jimbo wales intended it to
- Actually, Freedom skies, the burden of providing a reputable source falls on the editor adding material (i.e. you), not on the editor questioning that material, who in fact does have the right to remove it. See WP:V.
- And what Jimbo Wales said was that "no information is better than bad information." See again WP:V.
- On an additional note, I (as a physicist) can attest to the legitimacy of arxiv articles' effective peer review process.
| “ | There are a growing number of sources on the web that publish preprints of articles and conference abstracts, the most popular of these being arXiv. Such websites exercise no editorial control over papers published there. For this reason, arXiv (or similar) preprints and conference abstracts should be considered to be self-published, as they have not been published by a third-party source, and should be treated in the same way as other self-published material. See the section above on self-published sources. Most of them are also primary sources, to be treated with the caution as described in various sections of this guideline.
Researchers may publish on arXiv for different reasons: to establish priority in a competitive field, to make available newly developed methods to the scientific community while the publication is undergoing peer-review (a specially lengthy process in mathematics), and sometimes to publish a paper that has been rejected from several journals or to bypass peer-review for publications of dubious quality. |
” |
- It appears as if Misplaced Pages disagrees with you, Shivaji's Trident.
- Plus, the paper is published in a traditional peer-review journal also.
- If you could point out where, that would be very much appreciated.
- Here:
Journal-ref: Correction: It's a section of a book In S. Kak, "The Wishing Tree", 2001 (Munshiram Manoharlal, New Delhi, ISBN: 81-215-1032-5.).Shiva's Trident 14:09, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
- If you notice the summary to the arxiv article pasted above, it says so there.Shiva's Trident 14:26, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
- Perhaps we should first try and address and issue that we will find less contentious, such as which ancient Indian philosopher should be credited with atomism, Pakhuda Katyayana or Kanada]]?
Credible sources
I give you my word: if you can attribute something to a source that is peer reviewed I will let it stand.
I have fact-checked almost all of the bullets in this section. I left the first half dozen alone because they check out, that is, the sources they cite are credible AND the sources cited verify the text.
By contrast,
- Pakudha Katyayana's name appears nowhere in the cited Kak articles.
- That quote from Aryabhata appears nowhere in the cited Kak articles.
- That quote from A.L. Basham appears nowhere in the cited Kak articles.
The very least that one expects, when a source is cited for a quotation, is for that quotation to appear somewhere in that source.
As for Kak himself, I have checked three other histories of astronomy and none of them confirm Kak's claims.
Shiva's Trident/Netaji/Subhash bose himself found some of those claims dubious.
Remember, I was the one who added the bullet about Kanada because I had a reliable source.
CiteCop 16:40, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
- Irrational Hesperophilia and Orientophobia
- Just because Subhash Kak is a brown person does not automatically rate him as unreliable, except maybe to a Kiplingist. He has tenure in a reputable univ. He has accolades.He has a fairly long publication history in Cryptologia, ACM Ubiquity, Int. Journal of Theoretical Physics, Foundations of Physics Letters ,History of Science, Philosophy & Culture in Indian Civilization,Information Sciences and other periodicals. Look at his publication history on arxiv (the arxiv articles are preprints of articles that HAVE been published in peer-review journals listed above).
I said find the relativity bit dubious, as well as claims that ALL planets were discovered, though I believe Kak says that only some of the planets were discovered. Everything else is fine.
The Kanada thing is fine. Shiva's Trident 16:43, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
I know the Kanada thing is fine. I WAS THE ONE WHO ADDED THE KANADA THING.
What I want to know is where the Pakhuda Katyayana thing comes from, because it doesn't come from Kak. Neither do the quotes from Aryabhata and A.L. Basham.
I repeat, the very least that one can expect when a source is cited for a quotation is for that quotation to appear somewhere in the cited source.
Kanada's field of expertise is computers, not the history of science.
As for arxiv,again
| “ | There are a growing number of sources on the web that publish preprints of articles and conference abstracts, the most popular of these being arXiv. Such websites exercise no editorial control over papers published there. For this reason, arXiv (or similar) preprints and conference abstracts should be considered to be self-published, as they have not been published by a third-party source, and should be treated in the same way as other self-published material. | ” |
CiteCop 16:54, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
- i think the problem is one of semantics... i'm rewording it to "one of the oldest universities in the world.." therefore, we won't go into a wrestling war as to what is the oldest. if you really think about it the egyptians or sumerians probably had the oldest... secondly, the article is about indian nationalism so i'm rewording it to state that these are the sentiments of many indians... not all mind you but many.... for example romila tharpa (who is professor emeritus at an indian university) and most academics would disagree with many of these ideas on who is first or who invented what. Kennethtennyson 19:19, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Credible, citable sources
- Like Dr. Kak will be used, no matter how hard it is for some people to understand that sourced text from renowed academics is used for citation in Misplaced Pages, not personal thoughts and opinions.
- Dr. Kak's work has appeared in many encyclopedias. For example, Stanley Wolpert - edited Encyc. of India (Scribner's, 2006). You can see the list of topics here at this site.
- How's that for peer review ?? ??
- And as you know, Wolpert is a very conservative historian, and not a supporter of "Hindu nationalism."
- Personal emotions should be set aside, sourced text should not be removed no matter how strong past disagreements are.
And if someone wants to do something to actually help on the page, instead of incessent, irritable removing of sourced text, archive. See you in a couple of days.Freedom skies 19:21, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Proper and improper citation
This is how Ancient India's scientific achievements were attributed.
CiteCop: that material you just added regarding astronomy and such, I'm going to remove it and ask you for the sources for those claims.
Freedom skies: Would be glad to, these links were already provided there. Those articles are sourced too.
| “ | Ancient India’s contributions to astronomy are well known and documented. | ” |
I consulted The History & Practice of Ancient Astronomy as well as The Cambridge Concise History of Astronomy and neither of them corroborated Kak's claims.
This hardly qualifies as "well known and documented".
| “ | Calculation of Earth’s circumference. | ” |
The word "circumference" appears in none of the four Kak papers cited for this section.
| “ | Theorizing about gravity. | ” |
The word "gravity" appears in none of the four Kak papers cited for this section.
| “ | Indian philosopher, Pakudha Katyayana, a contemporary of Buddha, also propounded the ideas of atomic constitution of the material world. | ” |
Neither "Pakudha" nor "Katyayana" appears anywhere in the four Kak papers cited for this section.
| “ | Similarly, the principle of relativity (not to be confused with Einstein's theory of relativity) was available in the ancient Indian philosophical concept of "sapekshavadam" (c. 6th century BC), literally "theory of relativity" in Sanskrit. | ” |
The word "sapekshavadam" appears in none of the four Kak papers cited for this section.
| “ | Several ancient Indian texts speak of the relativity of time and space. The mathematician and astronomer Aryabhata (476-550) was aware of the relativity of motion, which is clear from a passage in his book: "Just as a man in a boat sees the trees on the bank move in the opposite direction, so an observer on the equator sees the stationary stars as moving precisely toward the west." | ” |
This quote by Aryabhata appears in none of the four Kak papers cited for this section.
This quote by A.L. Basham appears in none the four Kak papers cited for this section.
At the barest minimum, the very least that one ought to expect is that, when a source is cited for a quotation, that the quotation appear somewhere in the cited source.
Material attributed to a source that does not verify the text not only may be removed, it ought to be removed.
CiteCop 06:36, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
- So what you're saying is that the sources cited are a huge bunch of Kak?
- *Badum-CHING*
- Thank you, thank you. I'll be here all week!
- JFD 06:44, 4 September 2006 (UTC)