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Requested move

I recommend that this article be moved to the title of "Fire + Water (Lost)" in order to make it consistent with the other episode articles in Category:Lost episodes. --Elonka

Survey

• Oppose This is unnecessary disambiguation. Since no other article would reasonably be titled "Fire + Water", it should stay where it is. -Justin (koavf)·T·C·M 22:58, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
• Support (as nominator) One of the reasons that it would be helpful, is for those editors who are routinely scanning the Lost articles for fancruft/vandalism. Some have expressed concerns that it's difficult to maintain the large quantity of articles in their watchlist. However, if every episode clearly says "(Lost)" in the title, that makes them easier to spot. Another reason is that episodes have a great deal of crossover, so are linked between each other. To have some episodes with the suffix, and some without, can make linking occasionally more difficult, as it's necessary to manually check the episode to see which kind it is. Having all of them with the same ending, makes linking (and scanning for typos and opportunities to disambiguate) much easier. --Elonka 23:39, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
• Support In the interest of uniformity among titles, the move should me made. - SigmaEpsilon → ΣΕ 02:20, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose Uniformity has not been held up as a general principle in support of disambiguation tags, when they are not necessary. There is nothing to disambiguate, so dismabiguation is strictly unnecessary. Convenience to editors is also not a valid rationale. We are to make things easy for our readers, not our editors. Nohat 01:36, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
• Support Fire + Water would transparently redirect to Fire + Water (Lost), so readers would not be confused. It is not yet a disambiguation, it is merely internal housekeeping which is of no real consequence to readers, though it will locate the article in a permanent home so it won't need to be moved if disambiguation eventually becomes necessary. It hardly seems beyond imagining that someone at some point might connect two classical elements with an add sign and use it as the name for something else. -Anþony 13:03, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
• Strong Oppose: I don't think most of the articles in that category should have "(Lost)" after them. I'm tempted to start going through undoing those unnecessarily disambiguated titles. —Wknight94 (talk) 17:48, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
• Support for uniformity and tidyness, all episodes should disambiguate from real life. thanks/Fenton, Matthew Lexic Dark 52278 Alpha 771 21:27, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
• Support consistency is considered an acceptable reason for the article title, Dab issues aside, per WP:TV-NAME. -- Ned Scott 04:07, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Untrue - see discussion below. —Wknight94 (talk) 11:05, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
    • No, it's true, see discussion below. -- Ned Scott 17:27, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose I agree with Justin (koavf). --theDemonHog 04:41, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Again, according to WP:TV-NAME the naming convention doesn't have to be related to dab pages. This is a naming convention, not a dab issue. -- Ned Scott 06:22, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Untrue - see discussion below. —Wknight94 (talk) 11:05, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

• • • • No, it's true, and I can reply to more than one spot too! -- Ned Scott 17:27, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
        • Yes, clearly you can - you're the originator of replying up here. —Wknight94 (talk) 18:26, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Discussion

The only guideline that I know of that pertains to this move request is WP:DAB and it says this move request is wrong. This is also not standard among television episodes - see Category:Seinfeld episodes, Category:Friends episodes, Category:Simpsons episodes, and any of the subcategories under Category:South Park episodes — none of them employ the blanket disambiguation convention being attempted here. —Wknight94 (talk) 23:14, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure that WP:DAB is the only thing to apply in this case, as this particular situation is a case of making a set of articles in a similar category, have a consistent titling scheme. I also see it falling under WP:NAME, in making articles easier to link to. There's also precedent for this style within television episodes. For example, according to Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (television)#Episode articles, it is recommended that Star Trek episodes are always to include the series name, even if not absolutely required for disambiguation. --Elonka 23:37, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

At issue is a word in parentheses after the actual name of the subject. That's disambiguation. In the Star Trek example, you've found the only exception to the rule that is plainly stated in the same section that you refer to. If anything, you made my argument for me. And I don't see how adding something that isn't part of the subject's name can make it easier to link to. —Wknight94 (talk) 00:19, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Because of the great interconnectivity between various Lost episodes, it is routine for any one article to link to several different episodes. It is near impossible for any one person to remember which episodes would require the (Lost) suffix, and which ones didn't, and it would be tedious to have to manually check each one to see which version of the titling scheme it used. Far better is to come up with a consistent method of titling, and stick with that. --Elonka 00:48, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

You don't need to remember anything - that's what Category:Lost episodes is for. If you'd like to make it even easier and don't mind redirects, have a redirect for each episode with the (Lost) suffix but I don't see any reason here to go against the guideline at WP:DAB. I contribute a lot in sports and run into lots of Joe Smiths and John Williamses and Jason Andersons - that doesn't mean I should add (baseball player) to every biographical baseball article in the system. —Wknight94 (talk) 01:21, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

I thought I'd point out that we do have a guideline page about this, Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (television). "Where an article is created about a single episode, add the series name in parentheses if there are other articles by the same name, e.g. Bart the Genius, but The Sting (Futurama). For Star Trek episodes, always add the series name."

Both styles are considered acceptable by this guideline, meaning that you can use (Lost) for disambig or simply for article consistency. We'd be adding (Lost) not because of a disambig, but for style and consistency reasons. -- Ned Scott 04:07, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

That paragraph doesn't use the words "style" or "consistency" at all! Otherwise, you point out my argument perfcetly in the clause, "if there are other articles by the same name". In this case, there are no other articles by the same name so it falls into the same bucket as the "Bart the Genius" part of the example. That's standard disambiguation. I see nothing in that paragraph saying this is acceptable for style reasons, except in the Star Trek case. —Wknight94 (talk) 11:03, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

"For Star Trek episodes, always add the series name." That's an example of using constancy as the main reason for the sake of style. Both styles are considered acceptable. People should not object based on WP:DAB alone, as DAB is not the only reason we put something like (Lost) in an article title. -- Ned Scott 17:39, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

So you see one noted exception to a rule and you interpret that to mean there is no rule in the first place?! There is no verbiage there saying, "Some exceptions are made to the episode naming guideline such as Star Trek...", let alone, "Star Trek is different so feel free to make anything you want different". It clearly notes Star Trek as the exception. —Wknight94 (talk) 18:26, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Annwer me this: Why would anyone want to have an odd article that doesnt fall into line with the rest, i'm thinking some common sense may just be in order. thanks/Fenton, Matthew Lexic Dark 52278 Alpha 771 11:14, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Again, that's addressed in WP:DAB. The reason this one doesn't currently fall in line with the others in this category is that many of those others had no business being tagged with "(Lost)" in the first place, i.e. they don't follow WP:DAB or WP:TV-NC. Unless someone can give a good reason why episodes for this series are especially different than others series whose episodes do follow WP:TV-NC, I'm planning on going through several other Lost episodes and proposing the "(Lost)" be removed from them. —Wknight94 (talk) 12:57, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

And now I noticed that the only reason this one is now inconsistent is because other similar articles that didn't need (Lost) were recently renamed to have the (Lost) on them. Elonka (talk • contribs) moved 15 of them just eight days ago so it's not like this one has been sitting outside of some longstanding convention. —Wknight94 (talk) 14:15, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

I moved the few that didn't have the suffix, so that they would be consistent with the majority that did have the suffix. This is part of a larger effort to better organize and coordinate the Lost articles (see Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Lost). To my knowledge, none of the other moves were protested, and the only one that I could not accomplish myself was this one, at Fire + Water, because there was already a redirect page in the destination location, which therefore required a formal move request to get an admin to take care of things. This is a simple administrative move to allow for a consistent titling scheme in a specific subject area, just like many other places around Misplaced Pages (see: Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions#Other specific conventions), not a massive policy-changing situation. I'm bewildered why there's so much drama involved (pardon the pun!). --Elonka 18:36, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

There isn't drama except inasmuch as I don't see a need for this particular TV series to have a naming convention that makes every article look like it has a disambiguated title. The only reasons I've heard so far are:

1. "to be like the rest of the articles" when, it turns out 15 of them were just recently moved to this supposed convention.
2. "because any exception is allowed" when, it turns out, people are reading the single stated exception to be an invitation to use any convention they want
3. "because it would be easier for editors to write articles because this series in particular has a lot of links to similar articles" which sounds like a case of laziness at the expense of unconventionally named titles for readers. My biggest objection is that the titling convention you're looking for is already used, i.e. ending a title with a word in parentheses is supposed to be for disambiguation. —Wknight94 (talk) 18:57, 18 September 2006 (UTC)