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奴

Though I am no historian, but I really question the explanation of 奴 in this article. The term 奴 simply means slaves. Just like in Chinese Ming history, 倭寇 refers to the Japanese thieves, but no one would try to explain the term 寇 as a some kind of tribes. I may be wrong, but I am not convinced by this article either. Can some scholars confirm this? Kowloonese 22:13, 17 Sep 2003 (UTC)

I have the same question in mind too!wshun 22:25, 17 Sep 2003 (UTC)

There is no attempt to translate Nu (奴) as tribes, rather the author has attempted to explain that Xiongnu means the slaves of the ferocious ones and that these slaves actually consisted of many different peoples. It is nonetheless quite confusing and the article does need re-working. Anyone who has time to phrase it better should give the re-working a shot. Also some of the Characters need to have Pinyin or Wade Giles transliterations.

• • • Important update to the DNA and racial identity of Xiongnu, please click the link below and add this scientific findings to wiki, thank you

http://www.genomenewsnetwork.org/articles/07_03/ancient.shtml UPDATE SEPT, 2006***

Kaz

This page looks a little mess. :o --Gboy 06:18, 1 Oct 2003 (UTC)

It looks too daunting to tidy up but taking away the Korean & adding wg or py would be a start

How would Uighurs, Gokturks, Jurchens and Khitans all come under the suzerainty of the Xiongnu? This page needs a serious rework. kt2 06:32, 1 Oct 2003 (UTC)

The for-runners of those peoples are obviously meant but this needs clearer expression. At least it is clear that the Nu tribes under the Xiong were actually a pretty mixed-up group.

One explanation about the origin of the word Nu (奴), is that Nu was once the name of the tribe and later it became synonymous with "slave". --Kvasir 09:03, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Translations

It would make this unreadable entry a bit more accessible if the Chinese could be translated. And transiaxartesia ('beyond the something-or-other') isn't universally recognizable geography.Wetman 07:43, 6 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Yes if anyone knows which English terms correspond to the Chinese names or could at least give a correct Pinyin transliteration (I can only give them from Korean) alongside the characters it would be useful. I discovered the full geographical description of Transiaxartesia was deleted in December by someone who thought it was something to do with role-playing. I don't remember much about what it said, but do know that it was the land beyond the Jaxartes river. If the person who wrote that entry (or the one who deleted it) could put the info back under the renamed link it would be useful.

Rewrite

This article seems to be based on the contention that the Xiongnu were synonomous with the Huns. This theory has been discredited in the academic world for some time. It keeps referring to the "Xion" and their "nu" - which seems very far-fetched. The basis for the Chinese term "Xiongnu" is still contentious and should not be treated as fact. The article then moves onto a discussion of "Hu", sometimes not directly related to the Xiongnu. I'm going to attempt a rewrite. --Yu Ninjie 04:29, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Thank you very much! Boy, that article needs it! BTW, "Xion" is a typo, isn't it? (I'm a bit unsure because there are non-Han pronunciations like 休麻 Xoima.) — Sebastian 05:31, 2005 Mar 25 (UTC)

I'm not sure whether if it's typo. Maybe the writer meant "Xiong"? --Yu Ninjie 06:19, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Yes, I think so. — Sebastian 06:55, 2005 Mar 25 (UTC)

One should note that the word 匈 is pronounced /hUN/ in Cantonese, a language reputably older than Mandarin. It's reasonable that this sound is preserved in an older language. So yes, I do see a connection between the Xiong-nus and the Huns. Whether they were they same people or that the chinese confused them to be the same that's another debate. --Kvasir 09:01, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Pronounciations of Xiongnu names

All Xiongnu names and terms are Chinese transliterations. Often the characters representing Xiongnu names have pronounciations quite different to their modern pronounciations. An example is Modun (冒頓), the great unifier of the Xiongnu tribes. The annotated notes to the Shiji says that the first character of his name should be pronounced "mo" (p. 2889 of the Zhonghua Shuju edition), and not "mao" as is the modern usage. Similarly, the Xiongnu term for chief consort (閼氏) is noted to be pronounced "yanzhi" instead of Yanshi.

So even when an error of transliteration from Chinese to English on my part seems obvious, please don't change it unless you've consulted the relevant historical source. --Yu Ninjie 06:40, 25 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Work done by E.G. Pulleyblank shows the original pronounciation of the characters the Chinese used to write the name of the Xiongnu would've been pronounced more like flong-nakh contemporaneously based upon ancient pronouncing dictionaries the Chinese wrote. The flong part is related to the Chinese word for dragon. The nakh part is theorized to be a foreign word for whislting arrow. The proto-Turks supposedly copied the governmental structure and words of the arrow=tribe symbol from the Yeneseians to form the well-known hun/oghur/oghuz names. If you can get it , read "Mounted Archer's: The Beginnings of Central Asian History" by Laszlo Torday, who collected the latest research on the subject and presented it in summary form. Later I'll have to dig out the exact reference and explanation for it for the article. --Stacey Doljack Borsody 16:20, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

From E.G. Pulleyblank, 'The Consonantal System of Old Chinese', Asia Minor 5 (1962), Pulleyblank gives the following old pronounciations for Xiongnu.

Old (Han) Chinese: *flong-nahh

Middle Chinese: hion-nou

Where /i/ is an auxiliary vowel and /-hh/ is a breathy, laryngeal h-sound.

Regarding the dragon, I was mistaken. What was really meant is that the old pronounciation of the graphs used in the name of the Shanyu's clan and capital (lung (dragon) and luan (horns)) was originally similar to *flong. --Stacey Doljack Borsody 23:28, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

I think we should change things like "Maodun" into "Modu". Those names are NOT historical mysteries: you can find the explanations about their pronunciations in a modern Chinese dictionary. See http://zh.wikipedia.org/%E5%86%92%E9%A1%BF%E5%8D%95%E4%BA%8E -- Callofktulu 03:34, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Xiong Nu Words Titles & Names

I have often heard that a lot of work has been done on trying to find the etymology of the collection of words, titles, and names from Xiongnu (e.g. Chanyu/Shanyu, Yanzhi, Modun etc.) that the chinese chroniclers documented. If anyone can find the chinese characters used and list them with their modernday pronunciations and suggestions of how they might have been pronounced 2 millenia ago that would be a great addition to the article.

liu song

"After the fall of the Western Jin in 317, the southern Xiongnu succeeded in establishing the first alien dynasty in Chinese history, known to history as the Liu Song (劉宋)."

This is not correct, Liu Yu (劉裕), the founder of Liu Song, is not of Xiongnu origin. He is somewhat related to the royal family of Han dynasty, according to Chinese history.--Guangyiwang 00:28, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

Xien Yun

Unrelated Xiongnu question by the way, who were the Xien Yun? (written apparently by 24.199.83.207)

• I am not sure what you're referring to. Can you give the Chinese characters for these? --Nlu 21:58, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

Xiongnu/Han

I think the Xiongnu that Chinese referred are the Huns. The ancient chinese pronunciation was Hyun and nu as one of the suffixes that the Chinese used to name whom they considered to be barbaric. It's noteworthy that the Europeans described Attila as having a flat nose. We all know that the Huns are a mixed race, in fact in Han dynasty, a Chinese would recognized a Hun even dressed in Chinese manner. (written apparently by 24.199.83.207)

• There is in fact a dispute on this. See the article on Huns about this. --Nlu 21:58, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

Rulers

Hi all, I lifted this section from the Hun article because it seems it might fit better here.

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夏淳維 was the son of the last Emperor of Xia, China's earliest dynasy. After his father was removed, he returned with 500 members of his Xia nationality to his relatives the Huns.

Traditional History

The legend of Wang Zhaojun (王昭君) is usually placed within this period though any candidate for her husband Huhanxie Chanyu (呼韓邪 單于) appears much later on.

From 48, the an independent Southern Xiongnu set itself up in the east where it competed with the Northern Xiongnu for supremacy over the course of 50 years. Please also read the article about the Southern Xiongnu.

Rulers of the Northern Xiongnu or "Western" Xiong-Nu:

Hunuk

"훈육은 夏나라 때 중국의 북방에 살던 만족으로서 漢나라 때는 흉노라고 하였음." -- 신자해, 민중서림, 1967.

"Hun-yuk , the barbarians living to the north of China at the time of Ha , was referred to as Hiungno at the time of Han."

This quote seems to need an indepth scrutiny. --KYPark 03:35, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

Hunuk is mentioned in the Huns article. --KYPark 03:38, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

In order to understand the Xiongnu people, we must use the Old Chinese pronunciation,bear that in mind that the Chinese language it's not an alphabetic languange, so the pronunciation can be varied through time. Today the so called Mandarin has been the result of ancient Chinese language being greatly influenced by invading nomadic peoples in pronunciation and grammar, so as you can see that when the ancient Chinese scribes wrote down these foreign names, they were using Old Chinese. So historians must know that these Chinese characters' modern Mandarin pronunciation is chanyu, the title of Xiongnu leader, but the ancient pronunciation of the characters says chanyu is actually dar wa

i am a chinese.i think Xiongnu is a mixed race.long long ago,Xiongnu may be a pure race.then they grow stronger and stronger.some other races are conquered by Xiongnu.year by year Xiongnu become mixed.and i want to tell occidental that Xiongnu is maybe a transliteration by our ancestors.and i think there is another possiblity.The term Nu奴 is a humiliating word added to The term Xiong匈.Xiongnu,they just call themselves Xiong匈.and the article say that "Very ancient (perhaps legendary) historic records alleged that the Xiongnu descended from the founders of China's first dynasty, Xia Dynasty",i think it is wrong.

The word "allege" was added in there for a reason. --Nlu 15:18, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

The term 奴 doesn't mean slaves here.--212.68.230.160 12:17, 24 October 2005 (UTC)

language

Some noteworthy (and quite convincing) work has been done by Alexander Vovin that suggests that the Xiongnu spoke a Yeniseian language similar to Ket. This is definitely worth mentioning on the page.

Vovin, Alexander. "Did the Xiongnu speak a Yeniseian language?". Central Asiatic Journal 44/1 (2000), pp. 87-104.

-Andrew

I think this idea was first suggested by Lajos Ligeti in 'Mots de Civilisation de Haute Asia en Transcription Chinoise', Acta Orientalia Hungarian I (1950). He traces the Chinese transliteration of the Xiongnu word for 'high boot' back to Kettish. --Stacey Doljack Borsody 23:17, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Hunuk

This was posted on Huns and it seems it might be better posted here. 86.140.13.205 23:57, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

"훈육은 夏나라 때 중국의 북방에 살던 만족으로서 漢나라 때는 흉노라고 하였음." -- 신자해, 민중서림, 1967.

"Hun-yuk , the barbarians living to the north of China at the time of Ha , was referred to as Hiungno at the time of Han." -- Sino-Korean Dictionary Sinzahay, Minzungserim, 1967.

This quote seems to need an indepth scrutiny. --KYPark 03:28, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

燻 are the "Huns" referred to in the story of Xia Chunwei.

On the Korean search engines I can only find the Character 獯 for Hun instead of 燻 as you wrote. Sadly the Yuk character is too archaic to be included in the Microsoft Chinese character bank for me to type it here and had to be represented by a picture on the Korean Yahoo dictionary. Here is the link anyway for anyone who can read Korean http://kr.dic.yahoo.com/kids/search/hanja/result.html?id=3002199&seq=1&part=word&style_mode=big Notice that during the 周 dynasty they were called Hom(獫)-Yoon(?) again the Yoon Character is too archaic for microsoft to reproduce.86.140.13.205 23:40, 28 August 2006 (UTC) I just found these alternatives too 獫狁(험윤)﹑葷粥(훈육).86.140.13.205 23:43, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Merge with Northern Xiongnu

Northern Xiongnu is extremely short and there's a section in this article covering both Northern and Southern Xiongnu. I suggest merging the Northern Xiongnu article into this article. --- Hong Qi Gong 01:53, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

It should be merged with Northern Chanyu, but not here since the Northern Xiongnu article is a matter of more European interest relating to the Alans and the presence of Hunnoi north of the Caspian in 91AD noted by Tacitus and others after him. The Northern Xiongnu are not well documented by the Chinese. Unless there are chinese sources to expand it then it should be left where it is. 81.153.122.48 18:10, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't see how European interest should mean that it should be merged with Northern Chanyu or not merged with the Xiongnu article here itself. --- Hong Qi Gong 18:22, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

How can it be more of European interest when the names are all in Chinese? --Sumple (Talk) 00:09, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I think the fact that Chinese do not like to make a connection between Xiongnu and Hunnoi is meant. However, this discussion has been had before. Once upon a time Xiongnu and Huns were one article and the decision was made to separate the two. The Northern Chanyu article was established by User:Eiorgiomugini on the 1st of April this year (presumably not as a joke though the user seems to have vanished on the 11th of July 2006), and is s counterbalance to the Chanyu article. If anything those two articles should be merged but if there is enough room in one article for it all then I for one am not experienced enough to do such a large merge.Kaz 00:41, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I would really appreciate it if editors do not do any merging, redirecting, or editing of the existing merge tags while this discussion is still taking place. No concensus has been reached yet. --- Hong Qi Gong 01:50, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I want to note that I'm opened to anything. Maybe merging with Northern Chanyu is the right decision. Or maybe we should actually move the content in this article's section to the Northern Xiongnu article itself. --- Hong Qi Gong 02:02, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

dui(4) bu(4) qi(3). zhe(1) bu(2) hui(4) zai(4) fa(1) sheng(1) le(1). :-) IM(not so)HO, since 1) by the term Xiongnu it is usually the Southern Xiongnu that are meant, and 2) the southern Xiongnu eventually became part of Shanxi's population, the Article Xiongnu should remain a Chinese-centric article. However, Since 3) the Northern Xiongnu clearly roamed the vast steppes not being tied to any particular country, and 4) the comparatively little comment about the Northern Xiongnu in Chinese sources comprise an ethnologue of a far away people of the Northwest, all things pertaining to the Northern Xiongnu should be in one comprehensive seperate article drawing upon what has been published concerning the Sanskrit, Tocharian, Persian, Armenian, and Byzantine sources (none of which I presume commented upon the southern Xiongnu). What do you think? Kaz 04:43, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, but the Xiongnu article itself shouldn't be one soley based on Chinese sources and pertains only to matters related to Chinese civilisation, should it? If the article is about Xiongnu, then it should be about the Xiongnu, regardless of whether the sources are Chinese or Western, and regardless of how much effect they had on either the Chinese or the West, right? I mean, I don't think the articles on the Mongol Empire or its history are split up into Chinese and Western counterparts. --- Hong Qi Gong 14:29, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Since there doesn't seem to be much of any support for the merge, I'm going to remove the merge tags. - Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 16:05, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Southern Xiongnu AFD

Southern Xiongnu is on AFD right now (here), just to let you know. It will probably end up as a discussion on if/where to merge it. Kappa 17:59, 22 September 2006 (UTC)