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Refuge
"Found refuge" sounds POV, as it means "a condition of being safe or sheltered from pursuit, danger, or trouble." Was the family being persecuted or in danger? K.e.coffman (talk) 20:07, 13 May 2016 (UTC)
- Correct, as Silesians they had to evacuate their home from the advancing Red Army. The wording used in the source (Die Zeit) "Als Dr. Gadermann aus der Kriegsgefangenschaft entlassen wurde, fand er die Familie Rudels als Flüchtlinge in seiner elterlichen Wohnung in Wuppertal." Cheers MisterBee1966 (talk) 20:20, 13 May 2016 (UTC)
OKW press releases
By my count 11 editors were for the removal of the Wehrmachtbericht transcripts, while one editor was for keeping the transcript but did not offer a rationale as to why. Could the reverting editor clarify?
Please see related discussions:
- NPOV noticeboard discussion: here
K.e.coffman (talk) 01:14, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
- @Dapi89: Per BRD, please advise. K.e.coffman (talk) 06:35, 29 July 2016 (UTC)
Intricate details
I am referring to the section Later life with all its past scandals, what some football captain said in 1976; aiding Peron and Pinochet at the same time (!). Long notes of what a publisher published just after the war. Confusing, not interesting; could be summarized. Creuzbourg (talk) 23:21, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
- why isn't the football stuff interesting?
- the publisher material is the result of a long argument about what might be a decent source, it is the result of a compromise.
- the fact that he involved himself post-war in an issue is relevant, even if he tried to play both ends. His life didn't end at the end of the war. It went on, and he continued to be active in other events.
Just saying! auntieruth (talk) 18:43, 28 March 2017 (UTC)
- Later life should of course be included, but not with this mass of details. Rudel was an unrepentenant Nazi, and acted accordingly, but the vast amount of petty details are just confusing the issue. Why is the opinions of a now forgotten soccer player about the Argentine military dictatorship of interest? "The result of a compromise", as long as that attitude prevails, Misplaced Pages can never reach excellence. Creuzbourg (talk) 14:39, 29 March 2017 (UTC)
- The note about the Dürer-Verlag is redundant; isn't it obvious that a publisher publishing Nazi apologetic, also is publishing other revisionist literature.
- "Cocaine Generals"; no links, no explanation.
- Bad continuity, due to an overflow of details: "Rudel suffered a stroke on 26 April 1970." The next sentence: "Rudel returned to West Germany in 1953." Suddenly a jump from 1970 to 1953!
- It is the section Public Scandals that is mostly filled with the actions, doings, and sayings of other persons than Rudel, with a mass of intricate details concerning German domestic politics, that does not belong to this article.
- The first two paragraphs: Rudel Scandal; there are 388 word in this paragraph. The main article contains only 279 word. The treatment of the affair is more thoroughly here than in the main article. This text should be moved to the main article, and the affair summarized in two or three sentences.
- The third paragraph: Rudel watches soccer, mostly details the sayings of other persons than Rudel, besides enumerating what soccer games he watched. Hardly of common interest.
- The box with a Rudel quote, seems to be totally out of context. What is it referring to?
- Finally, the last section, Summary of military career, is misplaced at the end of the article.
- The mass of detail seems to be there to prove that Rudel was a bad man and a Nazi; who doubts it: he was an unrepentenant Nazi, but its not a war crime to watch soccer. Creuzbourg (talk) 15:08, 29 March 2017 (UTC)
- Later life should of course be included, but not with this mass of details. Rudel was an unrepentenant Nazi, and acted accordingly, but the vast amount of petty details are just confusing the issue. Why is the opinions of a now forgotten soccer player about the Argentine military dictatorship of interest? "The result of a compromise", as long as that attitude prevails, Misplaced Pages can never reach excellence. Creuzbourg (talk) 14:39, 29 March 2017 (UTC)
- As to User:MisterBee1966 just removing the tag; remember: It is not okay to remove maintenance templates until the issue flagged by the template is remedied first – that is, only once the maintenance tag is no longer valid. Creuzbourg (talk) 15:14, 29 March 2017 (UTC)
- You make the assumption that the tag is valid, while in reality it your opinion only. The article was peer reviewed and GA reviewed and never once was this topic raised. In essence, it is one opinion against many. Currently there is no consensus for you claim. Cheers MisterBee1966 (talk) 15:18, 29 March 2017 (UTC)
- Of course it is my opinion; tags are put in by individual editors, not committees. There can be no support for my claim, if its not allowed to be discussed. Btw: I thought you were retired. Creuzbourg (talk) 15:28, 29 March 2017 (UTC)
- Do you want me to leave? MisterBee1966 (talk) 15:41, 29 March 2017 (UTC)
- Absolutely not! I clicked on your name and got the message that you have retired; This user is no longer active on Misplaced Pages. Creuzbourg (talk) 15:50, 29 March 2017 (UTC)
- Most of this seems less to do with detail than style. Dapi89 (talk) 16:10, 31 March 2017 (UTC)
- Read through the article; the reference to the 1978 World Cup exposes Rudel's continued support and admiration of authoritarian regimes. It shows his Nazi-style views infected every facet of his life, even sport. Of course, it isn't a crime to watch football. But that isn't the point being made.Dapi89 (talk) 16:26, 31 March 2017 (UTC)
- Most of this seems less to do with detail than style. Dapi89 (talk) 16:10, 31 March 2017 (UTC)
- Absolutely not! I clicked on your name and got the message that you have retired; This user is no longer active on Misplaced Pages. Creuzbourg (talk) 15:50, 29 March 2017 (UTC)
- Do you want me to leave? MisterBee1966 (talk) 15:41, 29 March 2017 (UTC)
- Of course it is my opinion; tags are put in by individual editors, not committees. There can be no support for my claim, if its not allowed to be discussed. Btw: I thought you were retired. Creuzbourg (talk) 15:28, 29 March 2017 (UTC)
- You make the assumption that the tag is valid, while in reality it your opinion only. The article was peer reviewed and GA reviewed and never once was this topic raised. In essence, it is one opinion against many. Currently there is no consensus for you claim. Cheers MisterBee1966 (talk) 15:18, 29 March 2017 (UTC)
The president of the DFB, Hermann Neuberger, justified the visit, and stated that criticizing Rudel's visit was "an insult to all German soldiers" ("käme einer Beleidigung aller deutschen Soldaten gleich"). The German team captain, Berti Vogts, further fostered the criticism by stating after the World Cup: "Argentina is a country governed by law and order. I have not seen a single political prisoner." ("Land, in dem Ordnung herrscht. Ich habe keinen einzigen politischen Gefangenen gesehen.") Rudel had already visited a German team at a World Cup before. He was a spectator of the 1954 FIFA World Cup Final in Switzerland, and during the 1958 FIFA World Cup in Sweden, he visited the German team at Malmö following its 3:1 victory over Argentina on 8 June 1958. There he was welcomed by team manager Sepp Herberger.
My objections can be specified as follows:
- What Neuberger says is of no interest for the readers understanding of Rudel.
- What Vogts says doesn't have any bearing on Rudel.
- His visit to the German national team in Switzerland was not critized, and since Switzerland is and was a democracy, cannot be evidence of Rudel's support and admiration of authoritarian regimes.
- The same goes for the WC in Sweden.
- That Sepp Herberger welcomed him gives nothing to our understanding of Rudel.
- Whether intended or not, the text gives the impression of an indictment of the German soccer association, and the German soccer players as crypto-Nazis.
- Its redundant with text both in German and in English.
The whole quotation is in violation of criterion 3 for a Good Article: staying focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail. Hence it should be removed. The following text could be retained: During the 1978 FIFA World Cup, held in Argentina, Rudel visited the German national football team in their training camp in Ascochinga. The German media criticized the German Football Association (DFB—Deutscher Fußball-Bund), and viewed Rudel's visit as being sympathetic to the military dictatorship that ruled Argentina following the 1976 Argentine coup d'état.
And this is just one example, the whole article is full of these talkative expositions and meticulous investigations of insignificant details. Creuzbourg (talk) 22:32, 31 March 2017 (UTC)
- Rudel's visits to the German national football team are significant. They are still frequently recalled in the German media. However, the scandal affected Herman Neuberger more than anybody else. It was him and the DFB who were critiziced for harboring sympathies for facism, while it actually had been coach Helmut Schön who had allowed Rudel into the camp. Schön knew Rudel at least since Rudel's visits during Herberger's tenure as coach, for example during the 1958 WC. In 1954 Rudel also tried to arrange a friendly match between Argentina and West Germany. But that's another story. Thus the incident is not being properly presented in the article, but it's not per se intricate details. In my opinion, however, there are many intricate details, since Rudel's military service is recounted in minute detail. Given that most of the references are to the usual militaria KC-recipient's literature, that's not too surprising. Fraschka and Brütting stand out for their strong bias, and, of course, Günther Just's "adulatory" (Smelser/Davies, p. 277) biography of Rudel. Just had already published Hans Ulrich Rudel. Adler der Ostfront (Eagle of the Eastern Front) with Hanoverian National-Verlag in 1971, a publisher with close ties to the NPD. In 1983 Just aptly received the new "Hans-Ulrich-Rudel-Award" from Gerhard Frey. --Assayer (talk) 14:51, 2 April 2017 (UTC)
- I'm with Assayer et al on this. Rudel's postwar intrigues probably were more important than his war-time activities. They should be well covered. auntieruth (talk) 16:35, 2 April 2017 (UTC)
- Rudel's visits to the German national football team are significant. They are still frequently recalled in the German media. However, the scandal affected Herman Neuberger more than anybody else. It was him and the DFB who were critiziced for harboring sympathies for facism, while it actually had been coach Helmut Schön who had allowed Rudel into the camp. Schön knew Rudel at least since Rudel's visits during Herberger's tenure as coach, for example during the 1958 WC. In 1954 Rudel also tried to arrange a friendly match between Argentina and West Germany. But that's another story. Thus the incident is not being properly presented in the article, but it's not per se intricate details. In my opinion, however, there are many intricate details, since Rudel's military service is recounted in minute detail. Given that most of the references are to the usual militaria KC-recipient's literature, that's not too surprising. Fraschka and Brütting stand out for their strong bias, and, of course, Günther Just's "adulatory" (Smelser/Davies, p. 277) biography of Rudel. Just had already published Hans Ulrich Rudel. Adler der Ostfront (Eagle of the Eastern Front) with Hanoverian National-Verlag in 1971, a publisher with close ties to the NPD. In 1983 Just aptly received the new "Hans-Ulrich-Rudel-Award" from Gerhard Frey. --Assayer (talk) 14:51, 2 April 2017 (UTC)
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