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Gibbon's Catholicism

Do we have an entry for 'deprogramming'? Because that's exactly how Gibbon's family acted about Catholicism - taking him away from one school, sending him to professionals in a different company, etc. And 'began to espouse' - was he received into the Catholic Church, or did he just talk about it? --MichaelTinkler

All I know is what is in the introduction to my edition of the Decline and Fall, in which the following is quoted from his memoirs: "at the age of sixteen, I bewildered myself in the errors of the Church of Rome." It nowhere states that he was an actual member of the Church, and it seems that fact would be included, if true. --Dmerrill

Actually, there were lots of reasons to understate. His own family's reaction shows that the prejudice was more than mild. His own later intellectual prejudice enters in, as well. I'm not sure one way or the other, but I've read that he did. Nothing springs to hand online that looks helpful (there's one article by Paul Turnbull, whose name I recognize from History-L 'Buffeted for Ancestral Sins: Gibbon’s writings on his childhood and Catholic conversion', Eighteenth Century Life: Studies in the Eighteenth Century (1987) no. 6, pp. 18-35, but I haven't read it so I don't know how far the conversion process went). I'm away from a library. --MichaelTinkler

Article minimalistic

I think that the article is very minimalistic, and can use a lot more data. For example:

1. That he met some lady he loved in Lausanne
2. That his father did not approve, and therefore he never married
3. That he felt more at home in Switzerland than in England
4. That he returned to Lausanne to write the remainder of his magnum opus
5. That he left Switzerland after the French Revolution seemed to be spreading there
6. That he was in a British militia for some time
7. That he died after his hydrocele (water in the scrotum) was treated (probably infection), a condition he neglected for years
8. That he consciously wrote for posterity (being a historian)

There is a lot of material to be added. The 1911 Encyclopedia entry (link in the article) is a good start. -- KB 02:06, 2004 Apr 30 (UTC)

Thesis of his Renowned Book

The thesis of Gibbon's renowned book, The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, should be given in capsule form. Especially since there is no external link to an article about the book in the Misplaced Pages.

Also, seems to me this Gibbon article might address whether the ideas Gibbon put forward in his book are today deemed to have had any relevance to an anlysis of the fall of, say, the Spanish or British Empires. -Joel Russ

I agree with this first part about the thesis. How about at least including Gibbon's famous sentence (also featured on the back cover of the Penguin edition of the book), "Instead of inquiring why the Roman empire was destroyed, we should rather be surprised that it had subsisted so long." Maybe something else about barbarians and early Christianity? Mball

Note on Citations

• A lot of citations have appeared recently which cite printed texts. While this is in accordance with Misplaced Pages policy (see Misplaced Pages:Citing sources), I think it would be best if these could be balanced by an equal number of references to supporting articles on the web. Not all internet readers will have easy access to libraries likely to contain some of the works cited which severly cutails the usefulness of the citations. Robindch 23:50, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I have noticed that the majority of facts taken from the above have been kept. Thus:

• The names of his father and grandfather.
• His first publication. (the Memoirs)
• His second publication. (Critical observations on Virgil)
• His entering of the House of Commons in 1774 is now incorrectly stated as his re-entry (he was elected for the second time in 1781)
• The singular reason for his death.
• The only area of dispute is the state of finances on his father's death. which has been reverted, and in this area, I stand by the assertion that his finances had to be supplemented. In 1779, he attempted to sell the family estate at Lenborough, but couldn't because of the fall in property prices as a result of the dispute with the American colony. His election to the Board of Trade gave him a salary of £790. When the board was closed, he lost this salary, and by 1783 was forced (inter-alia) for financial reasons to give up London life and move to Switzerland.

• If therefore the citiations were not as you liked, don't critisise the facts, but critisise the style. Many of us have degrees, (some of us have several and post-graduate qualifications) If the facts come from a source you object to, say why. Andrew massyn 06:57, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Er, I wasn't criticizing the facts. I was requesting (fairly clearly I thought) that people provide a few substantial internet links as well as links to printed texts -- Misplaced Pages is supposed to be a useful internet reference. Also, Misplaced Pages is not concerned whether you, or any other contributor, has one or more degrees, post-graduate or otherwise. Edits are let stand based upon the merit of the edits themseves, and not the educational qualifications claimed by the contributor. Robindch 11:13, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

WRT the article as a whole, the areas of weakness are as follows:

• We need to give fuller discussion to the overall theme of the Decline, namely:
  • Complacency and stagnation.
  • Trenchant critisism of Centralised power.
  • Critisism of Empire as a means of government.
  • A fuller discussion on Byzantium. (If anyone has access to his unpublished Sur la monarchie des Médes it may give insight).
  • A fuller discussion on his antipethy to religion. Andrew massyn 06:57, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

• These topics are more relevant to The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, the book, rather than Edward Gibbon, the man. Robindch 11:13, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
  • It seems odd to me that a biography of the man includes only passing reference to the reason he is famous. Surely a comprehensive biography would include (allbeit a one paragraph precis of) his most important work? Its rather like saying Bach had lots of children and wrote some music or Picasso had a mistress and painted a bit. Honestly which is more important to the world? People are not necessarily interested in Gibbon's somewhat mediocre military career, but are interested in the sweep of his canvass and his insights into the latter days of the Empire. I put in such a precis, but it was removed. Anybody provide comprehensive reasons why?Andrew massyn 17:38, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Christianity

The article states that: Gibbon's work has also been criticized for his biased view of Christianity laid down in chapters XV and XVI, which document the reasons for the rapid spread of Christianity throughout the Roman Empire. Those chapters were strongly criticised and resulted in the banning of the book in various countries.

I think that the critisism is overrated. If you look at chapter 15, what he actually writes is as follows: "Our curiosity is naturally prompted to inquire by what means the Christian faith obtained so remarkable a victory over the established religions of the earth. To this enquiry an obvious and satisfactory answer may be returned; that it was owing to the convincing evidence of the doctrine itself and to the ruling providence of its great Author". He goes on to critically examine other causes of the spread and finds that they are fivefold, namely: "the inflexible and if we may use the expression, the intolerant zeal of the Christians.... The doctrine of a future life....The miraculous powers ascribed to the primitive church....The pure and asture morals of the Christians (and) The union and discipline of the Christian republic which gradually formed an independent and increasing state in the heart of the Roman Empire." To me, this hardly seems damning critisism of Christianity. As I am new to Misplaced Pages (and have noted Stevewk's comments above), the question is do we comment on such in the article, or leave it as a bare-bones entry? Andrew massyn 22:07, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

• I think it is true that he regards Christianity as having hijacked pagan religions and that it played on credulity to gain sway with the masses, but even so, I think the critisisms leveled at him were knee-jerk reaction of his day rather than a reasoned look at his critique. Andrew massyn 07:03, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
• The best approach, I believe, is to add a new section labelled "Gibbon and Religion" and move all of the contentious text in there. It should help to reduce the frequency and severity of edit wars. Robindch 17:06, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

Edit Wars

• Folks, we don't seem to be moving forward very fast here, which is a pity because both of you have put in excellent work and it's a pity that this can't continue, for the time-being at least. As agreement seems some way off still, I suggest that you both agree to nominate a third-party to edit the contentious 'Further Reading' section, and leave all decisions on form and content up to the nominated party. If you both agree, I'll be happy to do it myself when the page is unlocked. Alternatively, if either of you are unhappy with this, and there's somebody else both willing and able, then that's fine with me too. BTW, user discussion is usually best done either here, or in the user's talk page (click in the 'Discussion' tab at the top of the user's page), in preference to the user page itself, which is usually reserved for information about the user alone. Thanks. Robindch 23:28, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

1. see Shelby Thomas McCloy, Gibbon's Antagonism to Christianity (Chapel Hill: Univ. of North Carolina Press, 1933).

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