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talk:WikiProject Israel - Misplaced Pages

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Hello Everyone, I found a need (and support) for an Israel WikiProject. There are many pages relating to Israel on WikiPedia, and I think it is important that they are all kept to a high standard. I cannot do this alone, so please join in.

Wikiproject Israel Template

I am apparently not good at the template images thing. Could someone please link the image to an actual image of the flag of Israel. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Eric1985 (talk • contribs)

Fixed. This template should be added only to talk pages and not to articles themselves. Also please sign your posts at talk pages and fill out edit summaries. Thanks. ←Humus sapiens 10:08, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Hi all

I'm in. Ask me for anything about the Chareidi world. Bnei Brak, Jerusalem etc. --Daniel575 | (talk) 13:35, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Suggestion

I suggest we use this page for project-related discussions. For general ones, there is WP:WNBI that many users already have in their watchlist. ←Humus sapiens 00:34, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Tiamut (Membership rules)

"Objects to the idea of creating a virtual Israeli state on Misplaced Pages that annexes pages - including those for Palestinian towns it ethnically cleansed - to itself, but if such a project is to exist, will monitor its development with the aim of ensuring as much balance as is possible in such a blatantly biased endeavour" (Tiamut)

What is this supposed to mean? Please clarify exactly what contribution you are going to make to Israel-related articles. If your main purpose is complaining about fictional POV issues, I do not understand why you register as a member of this project. --Daniel575 | (talk) 12:47, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't think projects should allow members who are inherently opposed to the subject of the project, anyway. If the user thinks he can balance Arab-Israeli-conflict-related articles (which I doubt, but I will assume good faith), then he can just as easily do it from outside the project. In any case, the Arab-Israeli conflict is only a small part of the scope of this project. -- Ynhockey 13:13, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
Correct. I find Tiamut's remarks very weird and wonder why he wants to join this project (also nothing that he made only a handful of contributions since July). If no explanation will be given, I think we can safely delete his name from the list. Gmar chatima tova! --Daniel575 | (talk) 13:22, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

On a side note, User:Heckhgs may also need to be deleted. His own user page states that he isn't really into editing articles and only placed his name on this project page because he 'hates Israel'.
And, Gmar Hatima Tova, of course. Have an easy fast. -- Ynhockey 13:31, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

I deleted both and put up some rules. Do you agree with them?
Rules for joining
You must be an active editor, meaning that you are regularly on Misplaced Pages and not only once every few months. You must also be actively involved in editing Israel-related articles.
Agree? --Daniel575 | (talk) 13:49, 1 October 2006 (UTC)
Yes, these are the rules for several projects I frequent, such as WikiProject Ice Hockey. -- Ynhockey 13:58, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Excuse me, but I thought this Wiki group was open to anyone who had an interest in editing articles related to Israel in a quality, non-biased fashion. It seems as though you are contradicting yourselves when you purge the only two joiners to your project who obviously don't idolize the Israeli state. Perhaps we might provide some important balance, no? For your information, I'm a citizen of that state and believe that I have a right to participate in both its real and virtual democratic realms. You can't just edit the rules for joining right after I join up just so as to specifically exclude me. Or is your objective not as described? Please respond. Thank you! Tiamut 15:56, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

Also, I've reviewed some of the other project members' histories. User:Gronkmeister only joined Misplaced Pages in mid-September. If I open a new account and write everyday from the first day forward, can I join too? User:Ilikefood took a three month hiatus from Misplaced Pages between June and September of this year, about the same amount of time I was out of editing. Additionally, I have edited a number of Israel-related pages. In fact, how I came to know of this project was when I went to page for Tzippori which I have worked on and found it associated with this group, which is why I felt compelled to join. I also edited pages on Nazareth and Arab citizens of Israel. And, I don't edit once every few months. I edit a lot when I do log on and take breaks between logging on. I think your newly formulated "rules" need some reviewing. They are not being applied fairly across the board and without a minimum time being an editor at Misplaced Pages being stipulated, they don't make much sense. Accordingly, I have re-added my name to your project list. If you want to remove me again, I would appreciate a full and detailed explanation as to why. But I would prefer that we put this matter behind us and get to work. Tiamut 16:39, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

I would support removing any editor who doesn't edit much and just added their name to this project for the sake of adding it, whether pro-Israeli or anti-Israeli. I have not personally reviewed any of the users' editing histories and cannot say which users should be removed, but if someone is willing to do this work, feel free to do so. If Tiamut does start to actively edit Israel-related articles, there is no problem for him being in the project (Tiamut: I will reply to your question on my talk page ASAP). -- Ynhockey 19:37, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
Tiamut, I was looking at the contributions of Gronkmeister and Ilikefood also. They should, according to the rules which I put up, also be removed. However, you and Heckcgs explicitly stated an objective which is very weird. It is like joining Wikiproject Palestine and saying you support Israel. People would be looking just as weird. I did not know that you are Israeli. If you are Israeli, and you are indeed planning to become a serious participant on Israel-related articles, then please add your name again (but perhaps without a whole megillah behind it). --Daniel575 | (talk) 20:23, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Translate please

It seems that this list didn't get much attention at WP:WNBI, so I'm copying it here (minus articles already created):

Here's a short list of articles about people which don't exist on EnWiki yet, but do on HeWiki:

-- Ynhockey 22:02, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Law of Return Article

I started editing the Law of Return article. Any feedback on changes I made to the first half of the article are welcome. I could also use some help in locating citations for places that are currently missing some. Thanks! Tiamut 15:45, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Project award

While there is already the Barnstar of National Merit, I think we should introduce an award that is more relevant to this project and also to similar projects like Judaism, Jewish history, etc. How about something like the WikiStar of David, for all the aforementioned projects? If it gets approved, I will work on an image (and encourage others to do so). -- Ynhockey 21:50, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. Go ahead. --Daniel575 | (talk) 21:53, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
Cool. Amoruso 22:08, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
In Israel, those hanging flaps on a uniform shoulder are a big deal, they show what brigade someone is a part of, maybe a Wiki should flap? --יהושועEric 03:26, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

The Foundation Stone

The article on the Rock of the Dome of the Rock, the Rock on which Abraham nearly sacrificed Isaac, is currently listed under Sakhrah, the Arabic term. I personally have never heard of it being called "The Foundation Stone" before, nor am I familiar with the Hebrew word. But if anyone has any suggestions, I would invite you to contribute to a discussion on that article's talk page; we're looking to find a term, preferably in English, which accurately and specifically describes said Rock, and which will be acceptable to editors and readers of both faiths. Thank you. LordAmeth 22:35, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

I have heard the term "foundation stone" before, but I am not sure if there is a standard name for it in English. --יהושועEric 00:24, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
The even ha'shtiyah in Hebrew. Another example of an article about a subject which is both Jewish and Islamic, yet only an 'Islamic' article. Previously I encountered Peace be upon him (alav ha'shalom), which was also an Islam-only article then. I split that up in three articles: one about the expression in Judaism, one about Islam, and one disambig. --Daniel575 | (talk) 08:00, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
Well, shalom alechem v'alechem shalom! --יהושועEric 03:29, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

Israeli food

I can't find a general article about Israeli cuisine. Does one exist? Israeli food is just a redirect to Category:Israeli cuisine. (This question came up because I was trying to figure out what would be considered the typical native alcoholic beverage of Israel.) --Metropolitan90 05:03, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Typical beverages in Israel:
Beer - (domestic) Goldstar, Maccabbee, (import) Tuborg, Heineken
Liqour - Sabra, Arak (domestic)
General Wines, domestic from the Golan
I am not sure if there are pages for those, or if they are spelled correctly, but that is what Israelis drink.
no it doesn't exist yet. I was thinking of writing one. Jewish cuisine exists and Israeli wine, that's it. Amoruso 15:49, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Yom Kippur War

I was wondering whether you'd agree we need to change the picture of the template at Yom Kippur War. Israel won the war and that picture may be misleading as it only represents the beginning of the war. I was thinking something could be made like the picture in the template of 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict that shows 3 pictures including bombed areas both in lebanon and haifa making it fair and balanced. Maybe one can add Ariel Sharon's picture with a bandage, famous icon photo of the war or some other photo next to the egyptian soldiers. If people agree, maybe someone with good photo and wiki skills can create that image and use it ? Amoruso 02:55, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Subcategory?

Should there be a subcategory "Companies in Israel" or "Companies with facilities in Israel"? This would include Intel, Motorola, IBM, AOL, and a long, long list of other tech companies that have major operations in Israel.

My concerns over Israel article

See the concerns over Talk:Israel#Permanent semi-protection. I wonder how we can address the issue that Israel's article will be attacked fervently but it seems that nobody is concerned with articles concerning Syria, Jordan, Egypt, Iran... I would have thought that the same amount of users, non Israelis or Jews or with Israeli past, who are concerned with the article, will also be concerned with other country articles - but it doesn't work that way... those articles are left dignified and under no attacks, no mention of controversies, no WP:POV warring. They are presented as normal country articles where the lead is always very factual and sympahetic. I wonder why and how can wikipedia have a standard format for WP:LEAD in country articles and try to eliminate the prejudice of haters of Israel in the Israel article. The main issue is that Israel is regarded by those users as not a normal country. The user Dainelos who is not an Arab or a hater but proposed many changes also claimed that Israel is a "unique country" etc. I feel that this line of thought is an attack on Israel's sovregnity as state and I just wonder if there can be some perspective or edits by us on other country articles in the region atleast to attempt to balance the heavy and undue bias. Amoruso 07:55, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

The reason that the Israel intro keeps getting changed is that it is tends to be formulated in a fashion that is baised and contentious. Instead of merely mentioning that Israel is a parliamentary democracy, some users, like yourself, insist on making unqualified statements that "it is the only democracy in the Middle East". When faced with opposition by netural third parties, like Danielos, who as you point out is neither "Arab or a hater," you refuse to give ground, sticking to your propaganda line. The other articles you mentioned do not seem to be beset by those problems because they are not trying to prove some propaganda point in their intros. Though you are correct in noting that the Israel page will face problems because many people do view it as "unique"; indeed, this is partially because it posits itself as unique (i.e. "only Jewish state", "only democracy", etc.) but also because it continues to illegally occupy land, build walls, refuse to repatriate refugees, etc., etc. gravely offensive actions to people directly affected by those policies. No? Tiamut 11:13, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
No. Needless to say I disagree with everything you said. In fact, I believe you're disruptive to the project with your extreme bias against Israel and do not belong in it. Amoruso 11:31, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
Okay, Tiamut, I have several things to say.
  1. The Israel article needs to be semi-protected because of people like you who are extremely biased againt Israel. Articles on Syria, Jordan etc do not need to be protected because most people (including people who support Israel) are not prejudicial or racist vandals, and are the kind of person who sees no need to go out of their way to attack other people's countries or cultures.
  2. Accusing Israel of illegally occupying land is like accusing any other country of illegally occupying land. The UK does not illegally occupy Northumbria, the US does not illegally occupy Arizona or Hawaii, China is not illegally occupying Manchuria, and Egypt is not illegally occupying the Sinai. Land gained by purchase, by treaty, or by other agreement is legal land. And building just about anything on that land is therefore legal, including walls meant to protect one's populace from repeated violent terrorist attacks.
  3. Surely you won't argue that Israel is not the only Jewish state in the world? Israel is just as unique as any other country, and has a right to that uniqueness. If you claimed that Syria, Jordan, Iraq were all unique in their own ways, I would not argue against that. As for being the only democracy, that too is not a propaganda line. It is a fact. Can you name a single Middle Eastern country other than Israel that has the same degree of free elections, parliamentary procedures, and isn't controlled by a dictator or non-elected theocratic oligarchy? More to the point, can you name a single country whose citizens enjoy the same degree of personal freedoms that Israelis do? Are Jews treated as fairly and kindly in any Arab country as Arabs are in Israel? Muslims are as free as anyone else to practice their religion freely and openly in Israel - I doubt that Jews would enjoy that same freedom in most parts of the world.
  4. Please be civil. Treat others the way you want to be treated. Your personal and cultural attacks are not productive in any way. I do believe I have warned you before, but I shall do so again. If you post this sort of biased, intentionally anti-productive comment again, I will take steps towards banning you from editing. Please take care to think about what you are going to write before you write it, and to put aside your own personal bias, for the sake of Misplaced Pages, which seeks to represent historical and contemporary fact, not bias. LordAmeth 13:13, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Dear Ameth, I fail to see how my comments were "anti-productive". This is a discussion page, not an article, and one's opinion on a matter introduced by others is allowed to be expressed. Amoruso and I have been deeply engaged on the talk pages over the Israel article. He brought the matter to the attention of the members of the Wikiproject:Israel, where I am also a member. He expressed his opinion and I offered my opinion. I did not make any "personal" or "cultural" attacks. Nor do my edits to the Israel article show any evidence of being those of a "prejudicial and racist vandal." I am not attacking "other people's countries"; Israel/Palestine is my country. My family's roots here go back more than 800 years, I am citizen of Israel itself, and I live here. I welcome any and all reviews of my correspondence or editing content. Please do call for an outside mediator should you find it necessary. I believe that any impartial observer will find that I am serious editor, interested in accomodating other points of views and able to reach agreement with others when they are serious about NPOV. Thanks for listening. Tiamut 13:55, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

I apologize... now that I re-read the discussion above, I see that I was jumping to conclusions. You and Amuruso do appear to be having a rather civil discussion, and I should not have leapt down your throat there. I do consider myself a serious editor as well, and try my best to be a non-biased one; I hope I have not made an irrevocably poor first impression. Nevertheless, I think the points I made about the legality of Israel's actions, its unique identity, and the freedoms enjoyed there are important and true. Surely as a citizen of Israel you must appreciate the condition of your own country. LordAmeth 14:52, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

LordAmeth, thanks for apologizing to Tiamut. You must have had a really bad mood when you wrote that whole attack on Tiamut. You were judging too fast, way too harsh and much too reckless. About the 'Nevertheless' part - that is correct. --Daniel575 | (talk) 15:10, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

No problem my friend. I understand how touchy this subject can be to all who have emotional investment in the issue. I often have to breathe several times before responding and re-read people's posts to make sure that I am not overreacting. The points you brought up are difficult to address here since my viewpoint is very different than your own, and we are not likely to reach consensus.
But, On the legality of Israel's occupation and the wall, please see:.
As for your questions:

1) Can you name a single Middle Eastern country other than Israel that has the same degree of free elections, parliamentary procedures, and isn't controlled by a dictator or non-elected theocratic oligarchy? Answer: Lebanon and Turkey. 2) More to the point, can you name a single country whose citizens enjoy the same degree of personal freedoms that Israelis do? Answer: Lebanon and Turkey. 3) Are Jews treated as fairly and kindly in any Arab country as Arabs are in Israel? Answer: Yes. In Morocco, Jews hold high positions in the current government as ministers and legislators.

Finally, as a non-Jewish citizen of Israel, I do have a pretty good idea of the conditions in this country, and I do not think they are the best that they could be for someone like me. That's a wholly personal opinion, but one forged out of experience. If you want to know more, I would be happy to share. Thanks for listening. Tiamut 15:18, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Israel Article Rating System

I think that we have enough articles that we should work on a rating system for Israel articles. We should strive to have the best quality articles representing Israel, maybe a few featured articles in there too.

I see no reason why we should not use the assessment scale used by many other WikiProjects and codified over at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Council/Assessment FAQ. I personally do not have a clue how to implement assessment classes into the project banner, but I'm sure that someone around here who's more skilled and inclined can modify the banner template and organize an Assessment section (or sub-page) on the WikiProject page here. Sorry I'm of not much help :( But it's a great idea, and I'd be happy to start assessing things once the system is in place. LordAmeth 17:20, 12 October 2006 (UTC)