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Talk:Baked Alaska (livestreamer)

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Labeling him as "white nationalist"

There should be several sources if you're going to use the label "white nationalist" on this guy. All SPLC says is: "featuring such white nationalist figures as Richard Spencer, Nathan Damigo of Identity Evropa, far-right “neo-Pagan” Augustus Invictus, blogger Jason Kessler, and social-media celebrity Tim “Baked Alaska” Gionet." which doesn't substantially back up the claim, more an offhand reference. The Newsweek article calls several other people "white nationalist" but refers to Baked Alaska as "alt-right". In a businessinsider.com interview he explicitly rejects the label. --notJackhorkheimer 15:26, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

Among the many excellent sources for referring to Baked Alaska as racist, Nazi, and white nationalist -- and equating the so-called “alt-right” with these sentiments, are the following
Many others can doubtless be found. MarkBernstein (talk) 19:44, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
"Excellent" far left sources are really not that neutral.
Chikicreamdaddy (talk) 16:24, 24 October 2017 (UTC)
All of those are considered reliable by Misplaced Pages, with possible exception of the last two (I don't know). See WP:RS and WP:RSN. The edits you keep on reverting are not "vandalism" and if you continue to refer to them as such you can be blocked for making personal attacks. You are edit warring here. You've broken the WP:3RR rule and need to undo your last edit. Volunteer Marek  16:38, 24 October 2017 (UTC)
"In October 2014, it was noted by the Pew Research Center that in the United States, BuzzFeed was viewed as an unreliable source by the majority of people, regardless of political affiliation." Chikicreamdaddy (talk) 18:16, 24 October 2017 (UTC)
So what? We don't make decisions based on such surveys. We still call Creationism fringe no matter how many Americans believe in it. Anyway, that's three years ago. It's had a lot of money invested in it since with a lot of new hires, etc. Doug Weller talk 18:25, 24 October 2017 (UTC)
Do i have to watch his 5 hour long streams and pin point all of the times he said he's not racist? Will that be good enough for you to stop libeling this man? It goes against the neutral point of view to include "white supremacist" as the main part of the summary, you can create a sub-section about his personal beliefs to fulfill your political quota. Chikicreamdaddy (talk) 19:38, 25 October 2017 (UTC)
@Chikicreamdaddy: One's self-identification as "not racist" does not outweigh how reliable sources describe that person. There is no WP:LIBEL occurring in stating what these sources say. EvergreenFir (talk) 19:42, 25 October 2017 (UTC)
"Misplaced Pages articles should be based on reliable, published sources, making sure that all majority and significant minority views that have appeared in those sources are covered (see Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view). If no reliable sources can be found on a topic, Misplaced Pages should not have an article on it." However the information is ether taken out of context or is not neutral.Chikicreamdaddy (talk) 20:23, 25 October 2017 (UTC)
What exactly is out of context or not neutral? We have many sources calling him white nationalist and alt-right. We have sources describing his actions/tweets. Is the description of these WP:UNDUE somehow? EvergreenFir (talk) 20:28, 25 October 2017 (UTC)
This is a perfect example of biased sources. Aleccat 22:30, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

References

  1. Leah Finnegan (July 21, 2014). "No One Trusts BuzzFeed :-(". Gawker. Archived from the original on August 15, 2015. Retrieved July 27, 2015. {{cite news}}: Unknown parameter |deadurl= ignored (|url-status= suggested) (help)
  2. "Where News Audiences Fit on the Political Spectrum". journalism.org. Pew Research Center. October 21, 2014. Retrieved July 27, 2015.
  3. "Political Polarization & Media Habits". journalism.org. Pew Research Center. October 21, 2014. Retrieved July 27, 2014.
@Aleccatt: do you mean BuzzFeed? If you think it shouldn't be used, you or the other account can complain at WP:RSN with the specific text that you don't think should be used. Recent discussions there have been generally favorable. All sources discussing white supremacism have a bias/pov. Doug Weller talk 13:19, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

I'm still not seeing reliable sources that call him a white nationalist

A new article popped up citing Misplaced Pages as justification for calling this guy a white nationalist, so I come back here and find the claim re-added, even though the sourcing of this claim is still poor. I'm interested in any quotes that could be used to justify this claim. MarkBernstein posted a smorgasbord of articles in response to my previous solicitation, yet only one could even be quoted as backing up the "white nationalist" label. Whether a source is reliable enough to appear in any Misplaced Pages article is a different standard than WP:BLP and most of the ones Bernstein cited are one step above a blog in reliability. Besides which, I find it strange that you're citing articles that make no claim about him being a white nationalist. Although what matters is what's cited on the page and not the talk page, I'll address the articles Bernstein cited in case anyone thinks they'd make a good replacement citation.

Calls Gionet "one of the de-facto leaders of the alt-right meme army" but not white nationalist; cites him renouncing the label white nationalist. Calls other people white nationalist. Marginally reliable site.

An op-ed on a marginally reliable site. Does call Gionet a white nationalist.

Higher levels of reliable on their hard news articles (such as this) but by no means top tier. Calls Gionet alt-right. Uses "white nationalist" to refer to other people.

Roughly same level as Newsweek. Calls Gionet alt-right. Uses "white nationalist" elsewhere.

On the lower end of the spectrum for reliability. Is at least relevant in that it says Gionet "spent the past few years tweeting neo-Nazi slogans, advocating for white nationalism", although it does not call him a white nationalist.

Not too familiar with this site but it seems to be very decentralized. Calls Gionet alt-right, calls other people white nationalists.

So in summation one and a half sources low on the reliability spectrum as citation for a potentially libelous statement, and the more reliable sources call several people except Gionet a white nationalist. --notJackhorkheimer 04:10, 16 November 2017 (UTC)

In your post titled 'I'm still not seeing reliable sources that call him a white nationalist', you describe sources that explicitly call him a white nationalist. I'm still not seeing how that header makes sense. PeterTheFourth (talk) 04:30, 16 November 2017 (UTC)
Your revision summary restoring this label referred to two articles not cited in the article itself. Even if you believe NYMag.com/SelectAll and Gizmodo qualify as reliable publications AND cite them, I don't think they're of the higher standard necessary for WP:BLP, especially potentially libelous claims. Also consider that WP:NEWSORG says "Editorial commentary, analysis and opinion pieces, whether written by the editors of the publication (editorials) or outside authors (op-eds) are reliable primary sources for statements attributed to that editor or author, but are rarely reliable for statements of fact." --notJackhorkheimer 17:32, 16 November 2017 (UTC)

The standard for not being “one step beyond a blog”in this context is, apparently, any publication that is neither storefront nor breitbart. New York Magazine, for example. Is among the world’s great periodicals. Newsweek is not what it was, but it’s a reliable source.so is business insider. So are the rest.this is merely a superficial attempt to make the KKK and the new National Socialism slightly more respectable.MarkBernstein (talk) 11:12, 16 November 2017 (UTC)

SelectAll isn't New York Magazine. NYMag.com/SelectAll is irrelevant anyways as long as it's uncited in the article. And any article that doesn't make the claim is irrelevant as well. The standard is not merely "reliable" but the sourcing has to be high-quality. Most of those publications are what I'd call content farms, with questionable editorial oversight. Additionally, WP:NEWSORG says "Editorial commentary, analysis and opinion pieces, whether written by the editors of the publication (editorials) or outside authors (op-eds) are reliable primary sources for statements attributed to that editor or author, but are rarely reliable for statements of fact." You should also review WP:NPA and WP:AGF. --notJackhorkheimer 17:32, 16 November 2017 (UTC)


Maga Anthem

The article currently states:

After parting with Milo Yiannopoulos, Gionet returned to creating music and videos. In May 2016, Gionet released one of his most successful songs, "MAGA ANTHEM".

  1. Ma, Mike. "Baked Alaska Releases Donald Trump Theme Song: 'MAGA ANTHEM'". Breitbart. Retrieved June 27, 2017.
  2. Hoft, Jim. "BEST CAMPAIGN ANTHEM EVER=> 'Baked Alaska' Sings TRUMP MAGA Anthem 'Build the Wall It Just Got 10 Feet Higher'". TheGateWayPundit.
  1. This is simply untrue. Gionet is still extremely political on his Twitter and YouTube -- even his music is geared towards his political goals. The sentence has no citation, and factuality should therefore be preferred.
  2. There's no reason to mention "MAGA anthem" -- it doesn't inform the reader much about Gionet's political views or political activism, which are decidedly not focused on his musical career. Moreover, the references -- Breitbart and Gateway Pundit -- are notedly unreliable & highly-biased towards praising Gionet's work, even if it wasn't successful or good.

FuzzyCatPotato (talk) 17:02, 8 October 2017 (UTC)

I disagree, I think it should be included, but without the puffery like "one of his most successful songs". It's relevant to his career in his idealogical promotion of Donald Trump. Plus, it's sourced. There's no need to remove information because you disagree with the political-leaning of the sources. While, yes, I agree with your points on how his views are how he is notable, it's totally wrong to delete something that is sourced and relevant. --Aleccat 18:10, 8 October 2017 (UTC)

These sources aren't reliable, so we shouldn't use them for statements of fact. PeterTheFourth (talk) 19:06, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
Breitbart has been recognized as a PUS, yes, but this is not regarding a political narrative, this is regarding a political song, in which case, it would be reliable. Aleccat 20:17, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
Err, no, Breitbart has absolutely no basis as a reliable source for music. 0 history of music news or reviews- they're no Rolling Stones magazine. PeterTheFourth (talk) 20:52, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
I'm not edit warring, have it your way. --Aleccat 21:17, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
Yay! PeterTheFourth (talk) 21:25, 8 October 2017 (UTC)

Requested move 17 November 2017

It has been proposed in this section that Baked Alaska (livestreamer) be renamed and moved to Baked Alaska (activist).

A bot will list this discussion on the requested moves current discussions subpage within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the closing instructions). Please base arguments on article title policy, and keep discussion succinct and civil.

Please use {{subst:requested move}}. Do not use {{requested move/dated}} directly. Links: current log • target log • direct move

Baked Alaska (entertainer) → Baked Alaska (activist) – I don't see much in this article to suggest that 'entertainer' is his profession. He doesn't seem to be a professional musician or comedian. 'Activist' seems like the most accurate and neutral description. (Another possibility would be to simply move it to Anthime Gionet, but that would violate WP:COMMONNAME.) Robofish (talk) 00:38, 17 November 2017 (UTC)

  • Oppose as not known for activism, which seems here to border on a weasel word. Chiefly know for white supremacist or white nationalist efforts; Baked Alaska (white nationalist) might be better.MarkBernstein (talk) 11:12, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
  • Oppose - never seen him referred to as an activist and not sure if his activities can be construed as activism WP:OR. I've seen him referred to in RS as an "alt right leader", "personality", "charismatic", "troll" <---actually a very very popular one, "uber-troll" more than once and a spray of things we probably wouldn't want to use. References to him as a white nationalist are oblique. I've seen him grouped as such in an article about twitter canceling the "verified" status of white nationalists, but rarely as a direct label. Having his common name (B.A.) followed by his real name in brackets might be a sufficient DAB for the auto-search function in the search bar, although I'd read the article title MOS policies carefully before suggesting that. Edaham (talk) 13:34, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
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