Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Armon (talk | contribs) at 09:50, 18 October 2006 (→Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's comments section: I'll minimized the quotes in the rewrite). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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This page looks terrible. I don't think the cquote tag should be used for every quote; just for the really long ones. I also don't see the point of adding many more really long quotes -- additional drunk talk from Hitchens is particularly unnecessary, since his main argument is already summarized in that section. It's bad enough that this page was started as a hit piece against Cole in explicit violation of WP:BLP. Some of us have tried to correct that, and we've even worked together at times in spite of disagreements. But the current arrangement of the page with every quote separated out like that makes it look like a giant he-said-she-said debate -- not much of an improvement over a hit piece (though I suppose I should be grateful that Cole is allowed to state his views on a page allegedly about his views -- many of the Cole quotes have only been allowed after extended debates). Frankly, I think those who are so invested in bashing Cole day after day should either read what he actually has to say with an open mind (instead of reading it filtered through the gin-pickled brain cells -- what few of them are left -- of the likes of Mr. Hitchens) or simply find a new hobby. This page has existed for months now and 90% of it is made up of attacks and defenses of arguments that are less than 10% of what Cole actually writes about on his blog (never mind his academic publications, which are hardly mentioned). There is not a word about his invaluable translations of material from the Arab press. Not one word. There is some discussion of his views on the Iraq war, allowed on a page allegedly about his views only after an edit war in which Armon ridiculed such commentary as "soapboxing." But no mention about his daily news updates on Iraq or the Middle East. Nothing about Cole's posting of interviews and articles from third parties on important middle eastern issues, or about his analysis of the Iraqi insurgency. Instead we have near-hysterical focus on dubious charges of anti-semitism and belabored defenses against them (from someone who has defended Israeli academics and frequently criticized real antisemitism). And the only real mention of his academic work is in the form of an attack from Karsh in a non-academic publication that borders on ad hominem. That particular quote -- which is not, to my knowledge, cited in any print source other than the place it appears -- is quoted not once, not twice, but three times in Misplaced Pages (it's also on Karsh's page), making its status on Misplaced Pages more important than any quotation from, say, Thomas Paine, Napoleon, Sigmund Freud, or Ulysses S. Grant.

Forgive me for ranting about this. I'm not sure what to do here. I could throw an NPOV or Totally-disputed tag up but neither of those are totally accurate. The problem is not really a specific POV or accuracy dispute; the problem is a page designed to circumvent WP:BLP issues that has turned into a huge debate page between Cole and his adversaries. That is really the role of a blog and not an encyclopedia. I could submit an AfD on this page but I'm not sure it merits that either. I don't think we're ever going to settle any of this -- the Cole bashers have shown that they have more free time than anyone else and that they are willing and able to spend that time making sure that Cole is attacked as much as possible on this page. The Cole defenders will keep adding Cole's own words to try to balance out the onslaught of attacks. So we have this ongoing he-said, she-said that is totally unencyclopedic, and it appears that it will keep going on forever. The article is already almost as long as the History of the World article.

I'm open to suggestions from all sides here; it would be really nice if those of us who disagree about Cole could actually agree on a NPOV article about him. Perhaps the next step is an RfC, to bring in some voices who aren't so committed to one side or another. I'm just not interested in continuing an endless back-and-forth debate with people who won't ever budge (and perhaps I am one of them).--csloat 08:29, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Here's a suggestion. Scroll waaay up and you'll see my concerns about what this page is supposed to be -the problem is in all that time it's never been properly sorted out. I suggest we look at other examples like Noam Chomsky. There are "views" and "criticism" sub-page for him. Why don't we just split this article into 2 like that and agree that once the edit box shows up the article-size warning, each one is too long and will have to be trimmed. Armon 01:39, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

The Chomsky pages on "politics" and "criticism" are even worse than this one. I mean, you're right, that solution has the advantage of avoiding the he-said she-said smackdown approach we have here, but only by sending each party to a corner. Both pages seem too long, and the Chomsky criticism page is atrocious -- lots of "expand" tags, a poorly organized (and poorly written) hodgepodge of everything negative people could find published about Chomsky. This page would be worse like that because all this criticism focuses on Cole's blog, most of it on nitpicky or non-notable issues (I mean really, the Yale thing? for example), and much of it from sources that aren't WP:RS. Chomsky has written dozens of books and been criticized in dozens of other books -- Cole has a few books but all the criticism is about some of the comments in his weblogs, much of it from other bloggers. The other problem is that Cole has specifically addressed much of the criticism directly, point by point; separating these points leads to a pretty incoherent presentation. I don't like the way this page is organized like a debate, but if we're going to have all this junk in here, the refutation should follow the criticism rather than being segregated on different pages.--csloat 02:17, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

COMMODORE. though I suppose I should be grateful that Cole is allowed to state his views on a page allegedly about his views -. I know you stated that in full seriousness. But it really is funnier than hell. This page has always been a hit piece. I remember when I came to it about a year ago. It was locked up because of the Karsh quote. A compromise was made to unprotect it. A seperate V&C would be created where Karsh could safely live. Guess what. The hit crowd is trying to put full Karsh back on the front section where the rules clearly prohbit it and caused the page to get locked up to start with. An incredible mind boggling display of bad faith. Exposed to the futility of endless reversions, I had to take a long break, but you have preserved here against great odds and deserve recogniton. You are a legend in WP for your persistance, sense of fairness, and balance. As JC would say Cheers. Will314159 10:15, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

"blogger ethics"

Can someone explain what this is about? I don't understand. I removed it, but Isarig reverted, indicated he has a strong committment to this passage. He also used the phrase "blogger ethics" to defend it; can you explain this? If I have this right, the claim is that Cole corrected a mistake he made because someone criticized the mistake, and then he got criticized for correcting the mistake? This is notable how? And why is it under "Expertise and professionalism"? Thanks.--csloat 23:29, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

I'll be happy to explain. No, you do not have it right. Cole was not criticized for "correcting a mistake", he was criticized for changing his blog without indicating he had done so, and without acknowledging the error. "Blogger ethics" say, among other things, that a blogger should not retro-actively alter previous posts by removing content - but rather that wrong content be left on the blog, with either (a) a note which explains the post was in error or (b) the erropnous text appear with strike-through. Cole not only did neither, but proceeded to post on his blog his new "policy" regarding blogs posts, which was essentially " I can change anything I want within 24 hours without indicating I've done so.", The reason it appears under "Expertise and professionalism" is that it is unprofessional behaviour for a blogger. Isarig 23:35, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Fair enough, I see no problem in referring to the changes to his blogs as cited by the references. ALthough to say that it is a violation of some ethical standard should have a reference to that standard. I don't see the WP article on blogging mentioning this or anything on "ethics". Maybe it should.--CSTAR 23:48, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't know if there is a code of blogger ethics that applies to this. Maybe there is, but I don't know about it. I suppose if the statement were really outrageous, then deleting it without mention that a change had been made would be present an ethical problem. However, I thought people changed blog entries all the time, but is this point worth arguing? Maybe a reference to the specific example would be helpful (and should be part of a footnote in amy case).--CSTAR 23:36, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Isarig can you please point to these "blogger ethics" that say this? I assume you are referring to a specific ethical text that is accepted by most bloggers as an ethical guide? I couldn't find anything here, for example. I have been blogging on and off since the mid 1990s and I have never encountered such a guide. I know there is no main blogger professional organization that would publish one, but I wonder if there is a specific code of ethics that you are referring to or this is just the claim of one blogger. As for "unprofessional behavior for a blogger" - is Cole a "professional" blogger? I agree with CSTAR that this doesn't seem worth arguing about, and it doesn't seem notable to me. I'm not trying to be facetious about all this; I'm really trying to understand why this particular comment is notable. Thanks.--csloat 23:42, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Here you go:

As to Cole being a professional blogger, I'd say the answer is yes. Even his supporters acknowledge that he rose to notability primarily because of his blog. His Blog carries revenue-producing ads. To claim he's not a professional blogger would require some extraordianry proof. Isarig 00:01, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Isarig, that's pretty feeble for support of an ethical standard that merits that kind of criticism that Kramer dishes out. One of those references specifies a corporate standard. Now if Googleblog did something such as change an entry, that would be upsetting.--CSTAR 00:11, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry Isarig, having only been involved in the blogging community some 8-10 years, perhaps I am too new to it to be aware of some things. I looked at the links you posted, but they seem to be individual bloggers' ideas of what a good code of ethics would be. Can you point me to the blogger professional organization, or some statement signed by numerous bloggers that indicates that "desirableroastedcoffee", "forrester", and "gingerriverseast" are acknowledged as representatives of the code of ethics advanced by the blog world? I have never heard of these blogs (but, as I said, perhaps I'm new here). My sense of things is that most bloggers have individual ideas about what they think is ethical but I don't know of any blogging professional organization or community that has advanced such a set. My sense is that the blogging community is still in the early stages of ironing out ethical questions, so what may be ethical to one blogger (correcting his own errors) may be a no-no to another. (I didn't read all those links too closely but I really didn't see anything addressing this particular situation by the way). I don't sense there is a whole lot recognized as "unethical" about Cole announcing his own rules for his own blog as you say he did. I'm not going to revert war over this - it's fine with me to leave this up, but I think it's just one blogger complaining about another blogger here. As for Cole's "profession," it is my understanding that he is a university professor. Actually, his vita and professional history do not even list the occupation "professional blogger." And, again, I'm not aware of any professional blogging organization or board of standards that oversees such issues.--csloat 00:15, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

I also note that in the graf in question:

Cole has also been criticized for altering, correcting and removing material on his blog posts after learning they contained incorrect or embarrassing information without noting that changes had been made.. cited in

it should be noted that the original reference is actually a blog. Thus sloat's characterization is accurate. I suggest we leave this (who cares?) but we add that is a blog (cited by ).--CSTAR 00:19, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

cquote and other changes

I removed the cquote tags from several of the shorter quotes using the (admittedly arbitrary) standard that quotes shorter than 4 lines long should be in the text rather than separated out. After doing this I realize that it is even more an arbitrary standard than I thought, since if I widen my browser, other quotes are less than four lines long. I can come up with a word count to use instead if anyone cares but I do think too many short cquotes is very distracting; that should only be used for longer quotes. I made some other minor changes but one that people might have a problem with is I moved the wikipedia self-referentiality comment to a footnote; it seemed distracting from the flow of the text. I think the footnotes should be used more often for such purposes. I;m mentioning it here because I don't want to be accused of trying to hide this fact; it's pretty obvious to anyone who clicks the link that Cole is commenting because of the wikipedia page. I think this should be done with some other stuff on the page too as it will flow better if we move some of the tangential commentary to the footnotes. I also removed this from the Kramer quote -- "This is what Yale political scientist Steven Smith must have meant when he said that Cole's blog "opened people's eyes as to who this guy was, and what his views were.... It allowed us to see something about the quality of his mind." I'm not sure what is gained by quoting Kramer speculating what Smith might have meant when Smith speculated about what Cole might have thought. The point Kramer is making is certainly intact without this extra sentence.--csloat 07:59, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree that footnotes should be used more often. --CSTAR 15:45, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

conservative MEF

Come on Isarig - you must be crazy to claim that MEF is not "conservative." Take a look at their website. Which member of the foundation (or, indeed, of the MEQ board) is a "liberal"? Why hide that fact? There's nothing wrong with being a conservative - it's still a free country.--csloat 22:37, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

I encourage you to review WP:AGF. I am most certainly not crazy, I am enforcing widely accepted WP guidelines. Your OR regarding MEF's editorial board is of no interest to me - take it to Daily Kos if you must. There is indeed nothing wrong with being a conservative, but there is a lot wrong with lableing some organziation as such when it does not describe itself in those terms. we do not introduce the Salon piece with the label "in the left-leaning Salon magazine, Cole said...", nor should we poison the well with similar labels regarding MEQ or MEF. Isarig 01:14, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

That is definitely one of the more ridiculous claims I've heard. OR?? Get real. Once again, I ask you, name one liberal - or even one "nonpartisan" - member of MEF. Just one.--csloat 01:29, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

You just don't get it, do you? For me to name one liberal member of MEF would be my OR. For you to name one or a dozen conservative members of MEF would be your OR. You have no grasp of one of the most basic tenents of this encyclopedia. Go and get educated (and civil, if you can manage it) Isarig 01:33, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Civil? You have the nerve to call me uncivil in the same breath as you tell me to get educated? Where in your education did you learn that it was civil to imply that someone is uneducated? Additionally, your claim about my "grasp" of the encyclopedia is hysterical. Just calm down.

when you call me "crazy" in one post, and respond to my plea to review WP:AGF by calling my arguments 'ridiculous' and telling me to "get real", I am under no obligation to extend civility to you. Nonetheless, that is exactly what I had done - I told you to educate yourself about WP:NOR, which you have clearly not yet done, as judging by your response below. Isarig 02:01, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Naming a liberal is not OR, it is just R; OR would be to pick up the phone and call the MEF and ask them "hey, dude, you hiding any liberals there?" You don't have to do that, do you. All you have to do is look at their website. Here is their freakin' mission statement: "The Middle East Forum, a think tank, seeks to define and promote American interests in the Middle East. It defines U.S. interests to include fighting radical Islam, whether terroristic or lawful; working for Palestinian acceptance of Israel; improving the management of U.S. democracy efforts; reducing energy dependence on the Middle East; more robustly asserting U.S. interests vis-à-vis Saudi Arabia; and countering the Iranian threat. The Forum also works to improve Middle East studies in North America." It doesn't take any OR to call that conservative. Salon.com uses the word "conservative." These guys are behind Campus Watch and Islamist Watch, ferchrissakes. I don't understand why you feel like there is something wrong with being conservative, but let's try a different tack.--csloat 01:44, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

You prove my point that you do not understand WP:NOR. For "csloat" to claim that MEF is conservative, because according to "csloat"'s research all the staff members are "conservative" is OR. End of discussion. Go read WP:NOR. Isarig 02:01, 14 October 2006 (UTC

Isarig, I suggest you also read WP:NOR. Moreover, I think it's helpful if you were mindful of the purpose of Misplaced Pages policies; they require interpretation and applying them requires some thought and may not always clear how to apply these policies. I'm surprised that such artful polemecist as yourself has made the claim You prove my point that you do not understand WP:NOR; you have proven nothing whatsoever. There is a limit to how often you can pull of this kind of argument by irrelevant assertion.--CSTAR

I have read WP:NOR. I think it is quite clear and explicit that an editor conducting independent primary research on the political views of the staff of a magazine, and based on this research pronounces that magazine to be "conservative" - is OR. Am I missing something? Isarig 05:01, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

independent primary research on the political views to conclude that the magazine is conservative? Well Isarig, I can't possibly believe that is independent research. Note first that Misplaced Pages itself classifies Middle East Forum in the category Conservative organizations_in the United States. A cursory google search turns up this on NNDB. Now, please Isarig. be sensible. To claim that Middle East Forum is conservative is not OR. What good is it to trot rule X, Y or Z and argue that their correct interpretation is that the statement in question is OR when it's plainly visible that it isn't OR.

You should know better than to use WP as a source for claims made on other WP articles. I ask you again, am I missing something when I say that an editor conducting independent primary research on the political views of the staff of a magazine, and based on this research pronounces that magazine to be "conservative" - is conducting OR? Isarig 15:11, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

However, do you really think it's worth our time to try to dispute this? I don't think so, and I'm perfectly happy to lose an argument over such a minor point. Isarig, doesn't it seem to you this is a useless discussion over a square foot of territory? BTW I also responded to your charge below.--CSTAR 06:40, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

If you think it's a waste of your time, stop arguing the point. Isarig 15:11, 14 October 2006 (UTC).

Reply I take your point. I will stop arguing the point; evidently it's not a waste of your time.--CSTAR 15:34, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm taking a different approach here now, though I'm sure Isarig will continue his ridiculous edit warring. I've just added a footnote describing the mission statement of the MEQ; there should be more to come. It is odd that Isarig wants to hide the easy-to-discover fact that MEQ is a neoconservative organ that identifies itself with the far right of Zionist politics and pretends that is mainstream US opinion. Don't be afraid of the truth, Isarig - if MEF is conservative or pro-Zionist, this should not be a source of shame - I doubt Pipes or Kramer find it shameful. Why should you?--csloat 01:54, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

CSloat Please calm down. You are not helping yourself by this outbreak. If necessary take a break. Go back reread this entire dialog. Isarig is a clever person, and knows how to manipulate you too well; his capacity at this kind of manipulation exceeds his capability for rational dialog. --CSTAR 03:41, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

CStar, you are encouraged to re-acquaint yorself with WP:NPA Isarig

Thank you for your encouragement. I don't believe I have engaged in a personal attack against you.

1. My response directed to you above said you were an artful polemecist, but that in this instance I didn't believe you had actually proven anything. Isn't this a valid form for argumentative dialogue?

No, in your response you said my capacity for manipulation is greater than my capacity for rational dialog. If you don't see the insulting nature of that personal attack, it's time for you to take wikibreak yourself. Isarig 15:11, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Reply

No Isarig, I made two separate responses. In my response to you I said you were an artful polemicist, as is plainly evident from the record. In my response to Sloat I said that "your capacity for manipulation is greater than your capacity for rational dialog." Now in the context of your interaction with him on this page this is evident. Please don't distort the record. And please, stop Misplaced Pages:WikiLawyering. Note what WP:NPA specifically states:

This policy can be a prime candidate for wikilawyering, which can be defined as asserting a technical interpretation of the policy to override the principle it expresses. This page is frequently edited and examples and remedies that do or do not appear here may have been edited to suit one editor's perspective, but not be generally agreed to by the community. In the end, common sense is more important than the exact wording in this and other policy articles, including the examples included above

I urge you to file an RfC if you feel you are being unfairly attacked.

1. In my response to Sloat, I did not address you. What I did say to CSloat about you, was not an attack on you, in my view. If it upset you I apologize. I used no foul language, no personal characterization of you. I said you were a "clever guy" (I also do apologize for not using gender neutral language, and will recognize this as a failing on my part), but that your capacity to manipulate Sloat does exceed your capacity for rational dialog. Is that an attack? Perhaps it was an attack on Sloat, and I do feel very bad about it. Sloat works very hard on WP, and I don't think I properly recognized his effort. In fairness, I must also say you also work hard, although I hardly ever (but not never I might add) agree with you.
2. If you still insist I attacked you personally, there is no point in my trying to argue otherwise. By all means file an RfC; it's possible you might find it entertaining (although I can't see how).--CSTAR 06:40, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Middle East Quarterly

The article currently says:

The Middle East Quarterly describes itself as follows: "a think tank, seeks to define and promote American interests in the Middle East. It defines U.S. interests to include fighting radical Islam, whether terroristic or lawful; working for Palestinian acceptance of Israel; improving the management of U.S. democracy efforts; reducing energy dependence on the Middle East; more robustly asserting U.S. interests vis-à-vis Saudi Arabia; and countering the Iranian threat. The Forum also works to improve Middle East studies in North America.."

Fine. That's the description that appears in the web page for Middle East Forumm. The Middle East Quarterly is a resource for the Middle East Forum. It may be approprate to use the description of one for the other, but isn't the claim semamtically confusing? The Quarterly is a publication . The citation now seems to equate a publication with a think tank. Is that possible? It certainly appears to contradict the notion that a think tank is an institute a=or a group of people not a publication. Wouldn't it be more correct to say that it's a publication of a think tank... or is that OR also.--CSTAR 02:01, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

You are quite correct, thta's the wrong description. In describing MEQ, we shoud use it's own description, from , which is as follows:

Since its founding in 1994, the Middle East Quarterly has become America's most authoritative journal of Middle Eastern affairs. Policymakers, opinion-makers, academics, and journalists turn first to the Quarterly, for in-depth analysis of the rapidly-changing landscape of the world's most volatile region. The Quarterly publishes groundbreaking studies, exclusive interviews, insightful commentary, and hard-hitting reviews that tackle the entire range of contemporary concerns – from politics to economics to culture, across a region that stretches from Morocco to Afghanistan.

This is an improvement, but anything beyond than the first sentence is really unnecessary.--CSTAR 04:52, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm fine with your shortning of the description. Isarig 15:04, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. --CSTAR 15:06, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

I restored the mission statement. The fact that a magazine calls itself the "most authoritative" journal is not necessary on this page at all - we can delete the whole description or leave the relevant part, which comes from the mission statement. What Isarig put in is just advertising fluff. The mission statement indicates its actual mission.--csloat 18:11, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

That is not MEQ's mission statement. It is a cherry-picked statement, taken from a description of MEQ on Pipe's website. Isarig 18:43, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Isarig: do you really believe the phrase "America's most authoritative journal of Middle Eastern affairs" is a mission statement? it's more accurately described as MEQ's editors' opinion of the publication. There is clear disgreement about how to describe the quarterly, in a short sentence. However to characterize Sloat's edit as "cherry-picking" is certainly unfair. --CSTAR 18:52, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

I did not say my quote was the "mission statement". It is a description. csloats's cherry picked description is not the mision statement either. It is quite fair to describe his quote as cherry picked, as it is a single statement, taken from a 15-paragraph description of MEQ, from the website of Daniel Pipes. It would have been equally valid to cherry pick any of the following statements - " cover all of the Middle East, including often-neglected areas such as North Africa." or "we devote attention to domestic politics as well as to international relations. As to the latter, security stakes loom especially large. With the end of the Cold War, the Middle East becomes the most militarized region in the world." or " look at the region explicitly from the viewpoint of American interests." - but of course none of these would quite convey the POV that csloat is so anxious to inject into the article. Isarig 19:19, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

That is MEQ's editorial statement; it is not just any "description."--csloat 19:16, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

No, it's not. Isarig 19:19, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it is.--csloat 19:21, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

No, it's not. It's a sentence you cherry-picked from a a 15-paragraph description of MEQ, from the website of Daniel Pipes. Isarig 01:55, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

The sentence is the fourth sentence of the first paragraph of the web page of its publisher, Daniel Pipes. See my comments below. --CSTAR 02:09, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes. And it is not MEQ's editorial statment, nor is it their "mission statement", any more that the other odd 100 sentences in that same page. Isarig 02:16, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Sloat is correct in that the paragraph taken from Daniel Pipes' page seems the most informative as to what MEQ's mission is. Isarig has a point in that Sloat is choosing one sentence; however as best I can tell, the mission statement is included within the first paragraph consisting of these 6 sentences

The Middle East Quarterly is a bold, insightful, and controversial publication, edited by Michael Rubin. In 96 pages, it provides you with the facts and arguments to understand the Middle East’s complexities. Since its founding in 1994, the Quarterly has had influence in Washington – prompting the State Department to review policy, helping lobbyists make compelling arguments on Capitol Hill, and providing speechwriters with sensible policy ideas. In the halls of academe, the Quarterly delivers a welcome balance to the many materials that relentlessly attack the United States and Israel. It is both a policy oriented journal aimed at providing cutting-edge information for specialists and absorbing information for a general readership. You’ll find exclusive interviews, groundbreaking studies, and insightful commentary that take on contemporary concerns – from politics to economics to culture.

A fair sumary can be extracted by using the third and fourth of these

the Quarterly has had influence in Washington – prompting the State Department to review policy, helping lobbyists make compelling arguments on Capitol Hill, and providing speechwriters with sensible policy ideas. In the halls of academe, the Quarterly delivers a welcome balance to the many materials that relentlessly attack the United States and Israel.

--CSTAR 00:49, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

I disagree that the description from Pipe's page is the most informative as to MEQ's mission. A better description is the one taken from MEQ's own pages, specifically this which says

Goals - The editors have three main goals for the Quarterly: to educate Americans about a particularly volatile and dangerous region; to construct a framework for U.S. policy in the Middle East; and to guide American policy.

Isarig 02:15, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

OK fair enouigh, you disagree. We can discuss it, But see my comments just below (simultaneous edit conflict)

To add to the above, the paragraph cited is the first paragraph of the description of the magazine in the website of the quarterly's publisher, Daniel Pipes. The two sentences extracted from that paragraph accurately summarize what the magazine does. Other facts (e.g. tha the magazine has 96 pages) are clearly of little interest here. Other facts contained in other paragraphs, do not modify in any way what the mission statement is.--CSTAR 02:19, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm fine with this as a compromise - If you want to make the footnote read

The MEQ describes its goals as follows "to educate Americans about a particularly volatile and dangerous region; to construct a framework for U.S. policy in the Middle East; and to guide American policy. Since it's founding, the Quarterly has had influence in Washington – prompting the State Department to review policy, helping lobbyists make compelling arguments on Capitol Hill, and providing speechwriters with sensible policy ideas. In the halls of academe, the Quarterly delivers a welcome balance to the many materials that relentlessly attack the United States and Israel.

- that would be acceptable. Isarig 02:31, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

PS Also Isarig, could you please refrain from reverting while this is being discussed? Do you really think it matters if the stuff you find objectionable just stays in a wee bit longer? --CSTAR 02:26, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Did you leave a similar message for csloat, or are you of the opinion that we should reward violations of WP:3RR? Isarig 02:31, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Isarig, please stop this childish behavior. Grow up, or go play in your room.--CSTAR 02:37, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Incidentally, yes, I have left similar (although not identical) messages to Sloat.--CSTAR 02:43, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

I asked you a serious question. Do you believe 3RR vioaltions should be rewarded? csloat has been reverting while this is being discussed, and in his over zealousness, has violated 3RR. Surprisingly, you see fit to ask me not to revert, do not see fit to ask the same of csloat, and even advocate on his behlaf to try and prevent him from being blocked for his violations. Have you learned nothing from you past intervention here, and the uneven-handedness you displayed back then? Why don't you take a break, and review WP:NPA which you continue to violate, while you're at it. Isarig 02:46, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Isarig, please stop. I'll tell you what I told Sloat. This display gets you nothing.

Specifically in this instance, I asked you not to revert because there were two pomising proposals on the table we were discussing. I repeat, your behavior is inded childish and all indications here suggest it is getting even worse. File an RfC if you believe you are an injured party. Pleas note that I have said your behavior is childish, which if you've read WP:NPA is not a personal attack. --CSTAR 02:56, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Just to be clear what I mean about NPA, and why my assertion that my comments are not attacks, I'd like to include the relevant paragraph (boldface mine)

Personal attacks do not include civil language used to describe an editor's actions, and when made without involving their personal character, should not be construed as personal attacks. Stating "Your statement is a personal attack..." is not itself a personal attack — it is a statement regarding the actions of the user, not a statement about the user. There is a subtle difference between "You are a troll" and "You are acting like a troll", but "You seem to be making statements to provoke people" is even better, as it means the same without descending to name-calling. Similarly, a comment such as "responding to accusation of bad faith by user X" in an edit summary or on a talk page is not a personal attack against user X.

--CSTAR 03:12, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

third hand speculation

I removed part of a Kramer quote and Armon restored it -- my explanation was above; here it is again. Please do not re-add this stuff: I also removed this from the Kramer quote -- "This is what Yale political scientist Steven Smith must have meant when he said that Cole's blog "opened people's eyes as to who this guy was, and what his views were.... It allowed us to see something about the quality of his mind." I'm not sure what is gained by quoting Kramer speculating what Smith might have meant when Smith speculated about what Cole might have thought. The point Kramer is making is certainly intact without this extra sentence.--csloat 18:13, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

The full quote from Smith is here:

"As Yale political science professor Steven Smith explained, It would be very comforting for Cole's supporters to think that this got steamrolled because of his controversial blog opinions. The blog opened people's eyes as to what was going on. He was a kind of stealth candidate. I didn't know anybody that knew about this coming in; he was just kind of smuggled. And I think the blog opened people's eyes as to who this guy was, and what his views were.... It allowed us to see something about the quality of his mind."

Kramer's pointing to the fact that he's not the only one who views him as a polemicist. You seem to be of the opinion that it's OK and NPOV to truncate Cole's critics, while filling the article up with Cole's extended soapboxing -it's not. On the other hand, you could argue that the Smith quote is more appropriate for the Yale section. In that case, we'll quote Kramer earlier, and add the Smith quote to the Yale section, given that the preponderance of the evidence points to Cole losing the Yale position due to his blog. Armon 09:24, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Kramer is speculating on what Smith might have thought about what Cole might have in his head. Does anyone seriously consider that sort of third-hand speculation encyclopedic? Really? As for the Yale thing -- the preponderence of evidence shows that Cole did not have the position to "lose" in the first place. (It will also show that there was a concerted and organized letter-writing campaign directed against him, but that's neither here nor there). Can you guys please stop trying to turn this article into an attack on Cole's blog? Get your own blog if you want to vent; this is supposed to be an encyclopedia.--csloat 19:48, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

It's what Kramer wrote. It's not your call to unilaterally decide what criticisms are "valid". They have been made, they are cited and verifiable, end of story. AFAIK all the criticisms stem from his polemics on his blog -please correct me if I'm wrong. Armon 23:08, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Not everything Kramer wrote is relevant here. This particular item is not encyclopedic. That is wikipedia editors' call. The item is third hand speculation that adds nothing to this article.--csloat 23:21, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

You're repeating yourself and not addressing what I wrote . Would you prefer the alternative I suggested? Armon 00:58, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

I did address what you wrote. It is you who did not address what I wrote. To repeat, Kramer's speculation about Smith's speculation about Cole's speculation is not encyclopedic. You have not responded to that claim. Until that item is settled, I'm not sure why there is any need to consider "alternatives."--csloat 01:03, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Wash, rinse, repeat. Re-read what I wrote @ 09:24, 17 October 2006, and get back to me when you're prepared to discuss it. Armon 04:32, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Ummm, ibid? Reread what I wrote above and get back to me when you have a piece of information indicating that there is something encyclopedic about Kramer's speculation about Smith's speculation about Cole's speculation. Then I'll be prepared to discuss it! I'm not just being cheeky - I have re-read your comment from 9:24 and it just doesn't address this. Kramer's assertion that others feel this way is not encyclopedic. His specific claim here that Smith "might" have thought the same thing when he claimed that Cole "might" be thinking something strange is spectacularly unencyclopedic. Have a nice day.--csloat 05:12, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

I guess you need to explain what you mean by "unencyclopedic". It appears that simply quoting what a critic wrote involves a lot of specious nitpicking about they are and aren't allowed to say, whereas Cole fisking the absurd assertion of a drunken Australian that Jews "are responsible for all the wars in the world" is somehow important. It's not, and including it as a response to charges of antisemitism is 1) not going to change anyone's opinion either way and 2) even worse, actually makes him look like a lightweight -the exact opposite of what you intend. However, your rule seems to be, if it's unflattering to Cole (as criticism unsurprisingly tends to be) you're going to filibuster until it's deleted or truncated until they become merely setups between Cole's soapboxing on various topics which include any and all responses from Cole no matter how tangential and/or weak. I've already been drawn into this tactic of yours far enough. You're the one making the assertion that a quote referring to another person's opinion is "unencyclopedic". I say that's nonsense and challenge you to point to either a WP or for that matter, any academic policy which would somehow "disallow" such a quote. If you can't, I suggest you move on. Armon 08:43, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Stop making shit up about what I'm saying. What I mean by unencyclopedic is -- it is third hand speculation. It is speculation about speculation about speculation. It is Kramer saying "this is what Smith might have meant" when Smith said "this is what Cole might have thought." I am not filibustering and this has nothing to do with drunken Australians (or Brits-cum-Americans) or bullshit about "soapboxing." This has to do with a claim about something someone else might have meant in a claim about what someone else might have thought. You have not once suggested why this might actually be something worth mentioning in an encyclopedia, and the burden is on you to do so. The fact that you feel this empty quote is somehow worth defending is just bizarre. It doesn't matter - I'm backing off and taking a break from this BS, as you have successfully demonstrated that you have more free time than me to spend trying to bash an academic whose work you have admitted that you have never read. The fact that you consider it vital to plant your little flag in this article by fighting tooth and nail over an empty quote about what some third party might have meant about what another third party might have been thinking shows how weak - and truly ludicrous - your case really is. I have no interest in pursuing this any longer at this time. Perhaps I will return in a few days and file an RfC on this page; I'd like to hear what other people have to say about this ridiculous quote. Have fun.--csloat 09:28, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Campus Watch

Let's not censor the fact that most of the people attacking Cole are associated with Campus Watch, an organization whose main mission is character assassination of people like Cole who are critical of Israel's extreme right wing. In the coming weeks I'll likely add more information about this organization specific to its attacks on Cole. The virulence of the attacks makes a lot more sense when you recognize they are coming from an organized group devoted to attacking academics like Cole. Of course I'll keep my POV out of the edits I make, but censoring the fact that this organization exists or has a particular mission is anti-intellectual and it makes the editors who do it look really bad. I'm sure Kramer is not embarrassed to be associated with Campus Watch; why is Isarig embarrassed for him? The only reason is to try to portray Kramer as some sort of independent scholar who just happened to reach a particular conclusion independent of any organized smear campaign. Have a nice day.--csloat 19:21, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Let's not introduce POV using OR alleging to uncover Kramer's "REAL" occupation. Kramer's role in Campus Watch is so insignificant, if it even exists, that his WP article barley mentions it, in passing, and the Campus Watch article does not even mention his name, let alone claim he's a co-founder. If we're going to add titles here, how about we describe Kramer as a Princton Ph. D? Or as a 2-time fellow of the Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars? Doesn't quite deliver the POV that you're so keen on, but much more accurate. Isarig 19:31, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

csloat, you don't know that Kramer isn't an independent scholar who just happened to reach a particular conclusion. It's just uncited POV. Why are you even arguing about this? You know very well that's verboten on WP. Armon 09:33, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Ummm, the only part of Kramer's background that is relevant to this issue at all is his work with Campus Watch. Kramer is cited attacking Cole, and Campus Watch was specifically created to attack professors like Cole. I haven't deleted Kramer's academic credentials but those have little to do with the issue here. It's not a POV at all -- it's a well-known fact that is easily verified. Why are you even arguing about this?--csloat 19:45, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

You are welcome to your POV that "the only part of Kramer's background that is relevant to this issue at all is his work with Campus Watch". Feel free to expound on this POV on blogs, USENET, etc.. This is an encyclopedia that has no place for OR of this type. Isarig 19:47, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

That's not what I put in the article and you know it Isarig. The fact that he is a founder of an organization dedicated to attacking people like Cole is relevant to the fact that he is attacking Cole. Enough with the red herrings; either respond to the issue at hand or drop it.--csloat 20:18, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

He is not the founder of Campus Watch. Campus Watch is not dedicated to attacking people like Cole. While your Daily Kos buddies might enjoy cheering each other on with similar accusations, this is POV OR that has no place in an encyclopedia. Isarig

You are right - Kramer is not identified as a founder of the organization; this was incorrect information that I found at the sourcewatch website -- Sourcewatch claims that "The Campus Watch project is the brainchild of Daniel Pipes and Martin Kramer, and it is 'dedicated to revealing the alleged bias of mainstream Middle East studies programs at U.S. colleges and universities.'" Apparently this claim appeared in an article that was later corrected after an attack from Daniel Pipes, who founded the project himself. Pipes is a bit high and mighty about it, methinks -- the mistake is understandable, since Kramer endorsed Campus Watch in their first press release, he continues to be a primary supporter of the project, and Pipes cites Kramer's book Ivory Towers on Sand as the primary inspiration for the project, and of course Kramer has testified in Congress in support of Campus Watch lobbying efforts to attack the academic freedom of professors like Cole. As for the rest, you are wrong about campus watch, and this has nothing to do with the daily kos (??), but it doesn't matter -- I concede I was incorrect in saying Kramer was a founder of Campus Watch. I will formulate a different way of getting the point across, that Kramer is part of an organized assault on professors like Cole. Please refrain from ridiculing my POV as it has nothing to do with this. Thanks!--csloat 22:26, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Please, don't waste your time on finding a different formulation intended, as you concede, to push a certain POV - namely that " that Kramer is part of an organized assault " on Cole. Isarig 22:31, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Please stop making shit up. I did not "concede" that I was trying to "push a certain POV." You are making shit up. Please cut it out. It's bad enough that you consistently violate WP:NPA, WP:AGF, and that you have successfully gamed the 3RR -- there is no need to just plain fabricate bullshit about me. I have already conceded that you were right about Kramer not being the founder of the Campus Watch. The fact that he is part of an organized assault on Cole is not my POV; it is something Kramer himself admits (read his book for christ's sake). Now, as I said, please leave my POV out of this as it has nothing to do with this. Thanks.--csloat 22:53, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Let me quote you: "I will formulate a different way of getting the point across, that Kramer is part of an organized assault on professors like Cole". You may sincerely believe, with all your heart, that it is a fact, but it is not. It is your opinion. If you have a quote from Kramer that says " I am part of an organized assualt on professors like Cole" - go ahead and quote it. If you don't, keep your unsourced opinions (read: POV) out of this article, and stick to the facts. Isarig 23:04, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Wrong; it's a fact, Kramer admits it himself; but guess what? I don't care what you think. This isn't a chat room. When I make an edit you have a problem with, then your opinion might be relevant; otherwise please just leave me alone. Thanks.--csloat 23:26, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

If it's a fact that Kramer admits, you needn't have to worry about "formulating" it - just giev us the quote. Isarig 23:28, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Sloat, you're not helping your case with these displays. It also makes it much harder to follow this interaction (it's a stretch to call this a dialogue.) If you can show Kramer himself has admitted being part of some assault on Cole, then you're done; but that is a tough case to make here, unless you have a direct quote or even published evidence.--CSTAR 06:28, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

WTF are you talking about? If you have an objection to an edit I made to the article, let's hear it; otherwise this is just banter; why are you attacking me? I backed off the incorrect claim I had made regarding Kramer founding Campus Watch - but it's clear from the evidence I offered above that I did not pull that claim out of my ass. As for my other claims about him, just click on the google link I offered above, or read Kramer's book yourself, or take a look at his congressional testimony (again just click the link I provided) -- you may not like the way I phrased the point about him, but it is ludicrous to assert that he has not aligned himself with others to attack academics who he perceives as insufficiently pro-Israel. Anyway, I'm done with this discussion, and I'm through being browbeaten by the likes of Isarig and Armon. The funny thing is, I don't even care that much about Cole! I only care about the truth, and I find it ridiculous that a small group of editors have held this page hostage to their attack on an academic whose work they are totally unfamiliar with save a few articles from his blog. It doesn't matter to me anymore - you guys have fun defaming the reputation of an academic whose work you have never read. Good times.--csloat 09:40, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's comments section

This section is a mess. I'd say it's the worst on the page. I'm going to rewrite it completely when I get a chance. Armon 09:50, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Care to indicate what your problem is with it? It seems fine to me, except for the material you keep censoring from Cole's comments to the New York Times.--csloat 19:43, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

A few points. It's:

1. overlong
2. out of order
3. missing infomation
4. densely written Armon 04:40, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree with 1, 2, 4. I'm not entirely sure about 3. I'd have to read the section more carefully.

I'm curious: is any one (or all) of the disputing parties here willing to write (not for the article of course) very short "elevator" summaries of each section of this article? --CSTAR 04:51, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree with #1. It can easily be summarized but not if we want to preserve a lot of the distortions of Hitchens. #2 is kind of silly; what "order" would you like it in? Presumably one that suggests hitchens won the argument? Sorry, that won't wash. #3 contradicts #1. There's always something "missing," but it's not clear that anything vital is missing here. #4 is not easily to determine objectively. I don't find it dense. Which word or words are you having trouble with?--csloat 05:08, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I think you're right about 2. But I still think it's dense.

Well you could summarize it by your whatever your summary and adding the statement "and a lot of distortions by Hitchens".--CSTAR 05:40, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Huh? Armon 09:50, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Actually the whole article is dense. I personally don't like articles with lots of quotes, as I've said many times.--CSTAR 05:54, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree, but if the article can't be "good" at the very least it has to be NPOV. I'll minimized the quotes in the rewrite. Re: #2, it's out of order chronologically and makes it harder for the reader to follow the issues. As for #3 what's the deal with the missing punch-up between Cole and Hitchens? Also there's the stolen email issue, and the Iran war pretext issue. Even including that stuff I think it could be shorter. We don't, for example, need to go into the minutia of Persian grammar. Armon 09:50, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

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