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Opinions requested

Hello everybody -- I have some concerns about the following sentence in the lead paragraph of the CG article and would like to know if they are shared by others. Here is the sentence under discussion:

Through these experiences he became convinced that only revolution could remedy the region's economic inequality, leading him to study Marxism and become involved in Guatemala's social revolution under President Jacobo Arbenz Guzmán.

In order of importance, my concerns are: (i) I am not sure that what Arbenz did/was doing in Guatemala qualifies as a "social revolution"; (ii) I question whether it is accurate to state that CG was "involved in Guatemala's social revolution" (or whatever else it might be called) since, to the best of my knowledge, he was more of an onlooker than a participant; (iii) I don't think that the phrase "the region's economic inequality" is the optimal choice as it does not make it clear whether the inequality in question was among people within the region (i.e., a markedly skewed distribution of income) or an inequality in GDP between "the region" and some other unspecified region.

I would appreciate hearing from other editors whether they consider my concerns to be serious ones that should be addressed or whether they consider that the sentence is fine "as is". Thank you -- Polaris999 05:31, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Arbenz's plan seems to have been more agrarian reform than social revolution and agreed CG seems to have been more the onlooker than a participant based on a google search and the Arbenz article does not mention CG.--Dakota 06:42, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

I think the sentence is incorrect - in both Guevara's involvement (or lack of) in Guatemala's internal politics - and in the description of the "social revolution". As Dakota notes, Arbenz was primarily instituting land reforms. It may be considered a social revolution - and I'm sure it was the objective of some in the Arbenz administration, as well as the belief of some in Washington - but to call it such here gives perhaps a false impression of a Cuba style radical transformation. Though I haven't come up with any wording to improve that sentence, so I'm all ears.--Zleitzen 02:43, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Changes proposed to improve readability, Part I

Fellow editors: Please take a look at this comparison page to see the changes that User: Brian H made to the CG article and that I have rolled back pending discussion of them here on the Discussion page and express your opinions as to whether they should be included or not. Many thanks -- Polaris999 02:28, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Brian is on the right track in trying to improve readability, however I feel the previous wording - though more elaborate - was more accurate and grammatically correct.--Zleitzen 02:36, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Zleitzen, I concur 100% with your evaluation. Furthermore, in several places the re-wording has given rise to inaccuracies: for example, CG did not travel rough in order "to bring himself into direct contact with the impoverished conditions", but rather because his financial straits made that the only method of travel available to him. -- Polaris999 04:08, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm afraid I have to agree with you two, but I will say that the "powerlessness of the masses" paragraphs is among my least favorite in the article. If you both indicate some dissatisfaction with that particular paragraph, perhaps I can take a stab at it. Dasondas 05:43, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Hi, Dasondas -- Here is one vote for your doing a re-write of that paragraph! -- Polaris999 16:48, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

I did not mean to kick any hornets nests, I was just researching something else and did some "drive by editting" of some stuff that looked like the original author was using Marx (Karl, not Groucho) as a style guide. That being said, my reasoning for the edit of the description of his motorcycle trip was to bring it in line with the justification listed later in the entry, which reads: "Guevara and the 29-year-old Granado soon set off from their hometown of Alta Gracia astride a 1939 Norton 500 cc motorcycle they named La Poderosa II (English: "the Mighty One, the Second") with the idea of spending a few weeks volunteering at the San Pablo Leper colony in Peru on the banks of the Amazon River." The motorcycle may have been the most economical means to take an extended journey available, but CG had a stated altruistic motive (although it pains me to say so, I am no Che-phile). CG was not poor, he just had the limited means of a man who had not yet come into his own. My research on the matter was simply to read the whole article and look for inconsistancies. The reason that the passage caught my eye was the odd phrase "riding rough" --Brian H 15:07, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Also my edit on that passage was mainly to change "riding rough" to "and took an extended motorcycle trip" and to change "did bring" to "to bring" (justification of element of intent above)--Brian H 18:08, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

To facilitate further discussion of this topic, I am inserting here a side-by-side comparison of the lead paragraph, before and after. User: Brian H, please notice that the phrase used in the sentence you refer to above that contains the word "rough" is, and always has been, "traveling rough", not "riding rough". I believe that "riding rough" is what Theodore Roosevelt and his cohorts did. (¿El grouchomarxista eres tú?) -- Polaris999 18:12, 1 November 2006 (UTC)  (with apologies to Pablo Milanés)

I think that this is a good opportunity for all of us to try to improve the lead paragraph. I am especially bothered by the third sentence and wonder whether the following would be an improvement:

His experiences and observations during these trips convinced him that only revolution could remedy the region's socioeconomic inequalities, leading him to study Marxism and travel to Guatemala during the presidency of Jacobo Arbenz Guzmán to study the reforms being implemented there.

or perhaps:

His experiences and observations during these trips convinced him that the region's socioeconomic inequalities could only be remedied through revolution, leading him to study Marxism and travel to Guatemala during the presidency of Jacobo Arbenz Guzmán to study the reforms being implemented there.

-- Polaris999 18:30, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

One of the problems with Brian's version is that Guevara made a number of trips - the motorcycle trip being just one. As stated by Polaris, the reasons for the motorcycle trip were not to bring himself into direct contact with the impoverished conditions - but simply to travel and experience the continent. Also, the phrase "He later cited these experiences as what convinced him that..." is grammatically incorrect. All in all I support the first shorter, more accurate version. Polaris is wise to note that a mention of "Rough Riders" on an article concerning Cuba could be misleading!--Zleitzen 18:31, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Another one for the mix: His experiences and observations during these trips led him to the conclusion that the region's socioeconomic inequalities could only be remedied by revolution, and as a result he took up the study of Marxism and travelled to Guatemala during the presidency of Jacobo Arbenz Guzmán to study the reforms being implemented there. In particular, I chose led him to the conclusion instead of convinced him because the latter could be interpreted has CG coming to recognize an objective truth, whereas the former makes clear that the conlcusion reached was subjective to him. Dasondas 20:12, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Hello, Dasondas -- I agree with you about "led" vs. "convinced" and your version is now my first choice. But, how would you feel about substituting "delved into the study of Marxism" for "took up the study of Marxism"? It is, I believe, perhaps a tad more accurate since he already had been reading various Marxist texts in a somewhat superficial fashion (according to his own testimony) before he went on the trips. -- Polaris999 21:25, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

His experiences and observations during these trips led him to the conclusion that the region's socioeconomic inequalities could only be remedied by revolution, and as a result he delved into the study of Marxism and travelled to Guatemala during the presidency of Jacobo Arbenz Guzmán to study the reforms being implemented there.

-- Polaris999 21:25, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Well they are each an improvement. I would tend to agree with Dasondas that his first sentence is even more neutral. Here's my attempt for what it's worth! "His experiences and observations during these trips led him to the conclusion that the region's socioeconomic inequalities could only be remedied by revolution, prompting him to study Marxism and travel to Guatemala to study the reforms being implemented by President Jacobo Arbenz Guzmán."--Zleitzen 20:48, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Hello, Zleitzen. I like yours too! But, might I suggest:

His experiences and observations during these trips led him to the conclusion that the region's socioeconomic inequalities could only be remedied by revolution, prompting him to intensify his study of Marxist literature and travel to Guatemala to witness the reforms being implemented by President Jacobo Arbenz Guzmán.

I am not certain "witness" is the best word here, but I would like to avoid the repetition of "study". Perhaps one of you will come up with a better verb (I would have used "observe" if it too had not already made an appearance in this sentence ...) -- Polaris999 21:39, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Drawing on what I liked about the two previous versions: "His experiences and observations during these trips led him to the conclusion that the region's socioeconomic inequalities could only be remedied by revolution, prompting him to intensify his study of Marxism and travel to Guatemala to study the reforms being implemented by President Jacobo Arbenz Guzmán." Dasondas 21:34, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Dasondas, I think that our versions are converging. Would you please check out my latest effort, just above, which is out of sequence because I posted it after you posted your version -- but before I had read yours -- and tell me your thoughts? -- Polaris999 21:46, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

How's this? "His experiences and observations during these trips led him to the conclusion that the region's socioeconomic inequalities could only be remedied by revolution, prompting him to intensify his study of Marxism and travel to Guatemala to observe the reforms being implemented by President Jacobo Arbenz Guzmán." I left "Marxism" instead of "Marxist literature" for now, but would like to hear why Polaris substituted the latter. Dasondas 21:34, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Hi, Dasondas. Well, as I got to thinking about it, Marxism is not exactly the same as Marxist literature and what he was studying during the pre-Guatemala era was actually the latter. However, it is probably not important to make this differentiation.

re "observe", I am still uneasy with it because of "observations" appearing earlier in the sentence. There must be a perfect verb to express what we are trying to, but it is certainly proving elusive! -- Polaris999 22:17, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

The best I've got right now are "Understand", "Gain a perspective of", "Examine", "Take stock of", "View", "See", and "Comprehend". Alternatively we can maintain "observe and substitute "observations" for something like "Impressions", "Perceptions", or even remove the word and just keep "experiences". Hopefully you can work with this Chinese menu and put something together. On the "Marxist" vs. "Marxist literature", by all means use the latter if you think it is more accurate. Dasondas 22:46, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

What do you think about this version?

His experiences and observations during these trips led him to the conclusion that the region's socioeconomic inequalities could only be remedied by revolution, prompting him to intensify his study of Marxism and travel to Guatemala to learn about the reforms being implemented there by President Jacobo Arbenz Guzmán.

-- Polaris999 23:00, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

I think you should put it in the article immediately, and if anybody ever tries to change so much as a comma we'll gang up on them all the way to ArbCom (and even to Jimbo himself if that's what it takes) and make sure they're banned until the next millennium. Dasondas 23:13, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

With that kind of endorsement, I think we must have a winner! I left a message for Zleitzen asking him to please come to have a look -- Polaris999 00:19, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

That's fine by me! --Zleitzen 00:30, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Changes proposed to improve readability, Part II

Can the phrase "traveling rough" be taded out for something descriptive like "motorcycle journey." "Traveling rough" may be in common use somewhere, but not everywhere--Brian H 02:17, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

(removing indent) I tend to agree with BrianH and think that something along the lines of "travelled through Latin America by motorcycle" would be both more factual and less stylistically distracting. Any other thoughts? Dasondas 02:23, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

The problem is that the motorcycle journey was only one of a number of excursions. And even that venture was achieved largely without the help of the machine, which broke down early on. Out of interest, is the term "travelling rough" not a universal expression?--Zleitzen 02:32, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Hi Dasondas -- Sorry to dissent, but I must. CG and AG travelled not only by motorcycle but also by bus, on foot, by hitchiking in trucks and cars, as stowaways on at least one ship, by raft (the Mambo-Tango), by train when they could get onto one, and eventually, in Che's case, by airplane. At one point I had considered listing all of these conveyances but then decided that to do so would be too verbose. Do you feel otherwise? -- Polaris999 02:41, 2 November 2006 (UTC) (posting of this reply was delayed by Editing Conflict but basically I am saying the same thing as Zletizen. BTW to make future discussion easier, I have made this into a new section.)

Well, OK, so much for my suggestion being more factual :) Wrt Zleitzen's query, I had never heard the expression "travelling rough" before reading this article; on the other hand the connotation was immediately clear to me. I do understand where BrianH is coming from, but now given your added detail I'm without any ideas for improvement. Dasondas 02:50, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

But I hope that you are still going to turn your keyboard to the "powerlessness" paragraph! -- Polaris999 02:53, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Indeed I plan to. After the free history lesson I just got, I suppose I owe you that much. Although right now I'm wondering if this whole thread needs to be moved from Misplaced Pages to Wikthesaurus. Dasondas 02:58, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Dasondas, sometimes I think it would be rather appealing to reduce the whole article to the "concise" version suggested (humoristically) by Jmabel   :-) -- Polaris999 03:06, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Alas, Polaris, you will note that while having the utmost regard for JMabel's work across many articles and in many contexts, and respecting him as an editor with quite a bit more experience than me, at the time of his proposed abridged edition I was forced to raise a rather serious policy objection. Perhaps, though, he will join us in discussion so that we may work together to finally get the definitive version of the TRUTH out. Dasondas 03:48, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

2 options to "travel smoothly": 1)"As a young man studying medicine, Guevara traveled rough throughout Latin America, most famously by motorcycle, but often by other means, bringing him into direct contact with the impoverished conditions in which many people lived." or option 2)"As a young man studying medicine, Guevara traveled rough throughout Latin America, not only by motorcycle but also by bus, on foot, by hitchiking in trucks and cars, as stowaways on at least one ship, by raft (the Mambo-Tango), by train when they could get onto one, and eventually, in Che's case, by airplane. This brought him into direct contact with the impoverished conditions in which many people lived." The information provided by Polaris makes the passage more interesting and clear.--Brian H 14:30, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Although it wasn't me who added the "traveled rough" to the article and it seems to have been there for a long time - even before this article reached featured status and surviving main page coverage - I feel it would be a shame to lose it. It encapsulates in one word the 39 words it has taken to describe the means and methods of Guevara's adventures above. It's a very old term and is the reason for the title of the Rough Guide travel books. It means to travel via improvised methods on a very low budget, in the manner of a Jack London or Jack Kerouac. So it is an ideal descriptive term for us here. I'm surprised and intrigued by the non-universiality of the expression! Is the expression "sleeping rough" also not known to some?--Zleitzen 17:21, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Since compiling the above list, I have realized that there are two more conveyances that need to be included: his motorized bike (the one in that appears in the ad) and the petrol tanker on which he travelled up and down the eastern coast of South America as a male nurse! Interestingly, although CG was very fond of riding, I know of no evidence that he ever made a trip on horseback ...

As for "travelling rough", I settled on that phrase after considering various alternatives along the lines being discussed above. It is in common usage among English-speaking travellers in Europe. "Rough" as a descriptor for living and sleeping appears in the dictionaries I have checked, so I hope that people who may not have heard the phrase "travelling rough" before can nevertheless figure out its meaning — as Dasondas explains he did (above). On the other hand, perhaps it would be interesting to include a list of the numerous conveyances used in a content note. We might attach it to the word "rough", and in addition to the means of transportation we could mention how he/they slept outdoors, in jails, barns, etc. so that readers can get an even more precise understanding of what is meant by "rough". Does this idea appeal to anybody? -- Polaris999 21:21, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

That sounds like a very good idea, Polaris.--Zleitzen 04:04, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Thank you, Zleitzen. I'll try to come up with a draft content note tomorrow and post it here so everyone can tweak it. -- Polaris999 04:54, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Zleitzen, in response to your query, I have never before heard the phrase "sleeping rough". I can't discern the meaning as readily as I could for "travelling rough", yet for some reason I find myself rather curious as to whether there is some type of guide (illustrated, perhaps) published on the enjoyments of that activity :) Dasondas 20:09, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Powerless masses

Rising up and throwing off the shackles of the consensual dialectic, inspired by WP:BOLD and influenced by more than one scotch, I have published my edits to this most oppobrious of paragraphs. You may revert or edit at will (go ahead, you coward, you will only be killing a paragraph). Those with imperialist administrative powers may even ban me for vandalism (don't think you wouldn't be doing me a favor). Dasondas 06:59, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

I like the rework very much Dasondas. Good work. --Zleitzen 07:17, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Thank you, Zleitzen. Dasondas 13:51, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

My congratulations also, Dasondas. Many thanks for cleaning out that miasma. There are just a couple of little tweaks to the first and second sentences that I would like to present for your consideration:

Guevara analyzed the widespread poverty, oppression and disenfranchisement that he had witnessed throughout Latin America in the context of his Marxist readings and arrived at the conclusion that the only solution for the region’s inequalities was armed revolution. His travels and readings also led him to view Latin America not as a group of separate nations but as a single entity requiring a continent-wide strategy for liberation. His conception of a borderless, united Ibero-America sharing a common 'mestizo' culture was a theme that would prominently recur during his later revolutionary activities. Upon returning to Argentina, he expedited the completion of his medical studies in order to resume his travels in Central and South America and received his diploma on 12 June 1953.

I look forward to your comments ... -- Polaris999 20:05, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

The second of your suggested changes (His travels and readings also led him) is OK and should probably be retained in the article. The first suggestion, though, is ambiguous in that it's not clear whether the phrase "in the context of his Marxist readings" is modifying the verb "analyzed" (as you intended) or the verb "witnessed" (which makes less contextual sense, but is the grammatically logical association). The sentence could be modified to begin, Guevara analyzed, in the context of his Marxist readings, the widespread poverty, oppression and disenfranchisement that he had witnessed.... Another possibility that I had considered, that was closest to the pre-existing sentence structure and is similar in meaning to your suggested change is, Witnessing the widespread poverty, oppression and disenfranchisement throughout Latin America, and influenced by his readings of Marxist literature, Guevara decided that the only solution for the region’s inequalities was armed revolution. The change I made to the grammatical structure, while subtle, was calculated to place more responsibility on Guevara the man for the decisions he made -- his Marxist readings being an influencing, but secondary factor. I still prefer my version but would welcome further discussion. Dasondas 19:59, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Hello Dasondas. I like your second version much better. The discomfort I have with the sentence as it now appears in the article is that the subject, "Guevara", is sandwiched in between the two descriptive phrases and seems (to me) to be somewhat overwhelmed by them.

Would you perchance have a minute to take a look at the recent change made by User: Dwaipayanc removing the adjective "beloved" from the sentence re CG's Grandmother Ana Isabel Lynch? User: Dwaipayanc commented that he had removed the word because it is "unnecessary". While I do not doubt that it may seem unnecessary to some, I think that the same accusation could be levelled against almost any other individual word in this article or, for that matter, in any other article. It is widely recognized that Ana Isabel Lynch was one of the most important figures in CG's life -- for example, it was her death from cancer that caused him to switch his intended major from Engineering to Medicine -- and I feel that she should be singled out in some way. If you do not like the word "beloved", could you perhaps suggest an alternative? -- Polaris999 21:15, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Polaris, I made the edit to the former "powerless masses" paragraph to reflect our discussion above. See how it looks. As to "beloved", I think it's entirely appropriate and not unnecessary at all to highlight CG's fondness for his grandmother in order to distinguish her central influence on him, in contrast to other family members. IMO "beloved" is perfectly fitting, and I can't think of anything better right now. I'll leave it to you to make the reversion and engage Dwaipayanc in discussion on this point if you want. Dasondas 21:43, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

I think that the former "powerless masses" paragraph reads very well now and should be easily understood by all. In line with your comment re "beloved", I have restored that word and will defend it to the best of my ability, if necessary. -- Polaris999 04:10, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

No way, Guevara's perception of social conditions in Latin America were inevitable influenced by his marxist upbringing. His very reliance on such theoretical concepts so flawed his view of reality that they led to his, in my view very deserved, doom in Bolivia. El Jigue 11-5-06

EJ, I'm not quite following you. We make the point that his Marxist studies influenced his outlook, decision-making process, and subsequent behavior. Do you think that we haven't made this point strongly enough? Dasondas 18:10, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Indeed, Dasondas just moved that phrase forward in the sentence in question, giving it even more emphasis! -- Polaris999 19:34, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Changes proposed by Lavenderbunny

If interested, please take a look at this comparison page to view the changes made on 06 November 06 by User:Lavenderbunny and which I rolled back pending discussion here. -- Polaris999 17:52, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

I can't see any changes that improve the article or readibility, I'm afraid. Again the "rough" has been questioned and removed - it probably needs the speech marks around the word again. I think it was Brian that removed "Christopher Hitchens, when attempting to summarise Guevara's legacy, speculated thus..." replacing it with a mere "Christopher Hitchens commented.." - the reason given was that the former was too "catty". I don't quite understand which aspect of the sentence the "catty" refers to, but I think it needs to be explained that Chris wasn't just pontificating in a vacuum - some sort of context is required.--Zleitzen 19:51, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Hello Zleitzen -- I too was puzzled by by Brian_H's remark but thought that perhaps I was missing something and so left the change in place for you to decide about ... -- Polaris999 20:01, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

I reduced the sentance because all the extra words were unneccessary. Hitchens in an author (his book on Orwell is on my nightstand at the moment, by chance) A link to the Hitchens article was already there. And to use your own word, the passage implies (more or less) that he is "pontificating" (because he is "attempting to summerize" as opposed to ligimately doing so). As many have pointed out, the article is a bit long, so it was not a stretch to trim that particular passage.--Brian H 02:19, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Concerning "rough": I can hardly believe the amount of confusion that this straightforward word is generating. It does appear in dictionaries — for example, the following is from The Free Dictionary:

"Idiom:

rough it

To live without the usual comforts and conveniences: roughed it in a small hunting shack."

(sigh) ... Since it is an accepted idiom in the English language, I see no reason so remove it. As for the speech marks, I had originally included them, then someone removed them and I didn't restore them. Please replace them if you think they are needed. (BTW I am working on the content of the promised content note by going back over the details of all of his trips to make sure that I have not missed any of the multiple conveyances and sleeping spots used. I should be ready to compose it in a day or so. Perhaps I should include the definition at the beginning of it?) -- Polaris999 20:18, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

You guys have long since convinced me on the "travelling rough" phrase, but since Zleitzen has shown an interest in its idiomatic usage, I thought he'd be interested to know that the example rough it provided by Polaris above is a term I've been using since childhood. I would naturally say "We roughed it", but I would never say "We travelled rough". Just fyi. But, please, keep fighting to maintain "travelled rough" in the article -- there is no "dominant" English idiom for Misplaced Pages, and I have been convinced that the existing term is perhaps the most elegant description we have in the language for describing Guevara's activities during that period of his life. Dasondas 21:04, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Rough revisited: I searched for travel rough in amazon.com and their search engine returned 1963 hits! Among them a book entitled The Art of Rough Travel: From the Peculiar to Practical, Advice From a 19th Century Explorer (Hardcover), by Francis Galton. -- Polaris999 22:24, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Yet, the same entry in Google yields only 884 hits. How peculiar! For comparison Google returns 12,200 hits on the more-or-less randomly selected phrase "What I had for breakfast", and for a more topical comparison the phrase "roughing it" (for which Amazon lists over 9100 books) has 737,000 pages referenced by Google. Hmm, Polaris, another phrase is now coming to mind..."Seizing defeat from the jaws of victory." Dasondas 22:48, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

1953 on amazon and 884 on google are quite enough for me  ;-)   -- Polaris999 23:29, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Just for the record: "traveling rough" has grown on me and I renounce all previous objections to it. I only offer profound under caffeination as an explaination for my actions. --Brian H 02:27, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

"traveled rough" "roughing it" is common in the english language and is very effective in describing the amenities or lack of available to Guevara in his travels. I googled it also and found a great number of references. --Dakota 23:20, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Citation for political dissidents

I need to take a further look at that sentence and citation in reference to "political dissidents". Having written about the post revolution "against the wall" period elsewhere - I need more convincing. The fact that the citation is from the "Black book of communism" raises questions, considering that the immediate post revolution period we are concerned with was not marked by "communist" governance or methods, it seems strange that it should be presented in that book and contradictory to historical accounts of the period. I don't know the book in question I'm afraid. By the way - I'm thinking of the 500 or so executions in the first 6 months or so of 1959. I'll revisit various historical texts to ascertain which executions we are referring to. "Political dissidents" is not something I would necessarily associate with the victims from my previous studies. It may have also been the reason why Polaris added the "citation needed" tag.--Zleitzen 23:58, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

I'm open to being convinced. The "Black Book of Communism" is the only thing on my shelf that was on point, so I used it. The book has garnered some controversy since its release, but I believe that most moderate observers would come to the conclusion that it is a serious effort whose primary authors are respected researchers/writers although it is certainly far from being a scholarly treatment and makes no pretense of objectivity. The original is in French, and the version I translated from is in Portuguese; not having seen the original I can't vouch for the French-Portuguese translation, but I am confident in my own abilities to accurately render Portuguese into English. If you want, I can provide the quote in the original language, but I believe that your scepticism is quite a bit more substantive and I'll wait for the results of search. At the end of the day I'd have no problem removing the claim from the article if it proves to be unsustainable, but it might come down to what we mean by political dissidents. Our friend EJ might want to weigh in as well, but seeing as that you, Zletizen, have directly relevant professional expertise you wouldn't find me to be a tough obstacle to move on this point if no other dissenters voiced an opinion in the meantime. Dasondas 00:17, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

(Potentially mildly humorous update) Also, since Polaris has created the precedent of using Amazon searches as a citable reference here (see above discussion on "rough"), I'll note that the Black Book of Communism received 4 out of 5 stars from 92 customer reviews at Amazon -- I'm betting that's a broader consensus than we'll get for any academic source :) Dasondas 00:24, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Zleitzen's statement "I need more convincing." sums up my own feeling exactly. Nothing I have read about the period leads me to believe that those executed were other than supporters of the Batista dictatorship, which does not leave room for dissidents from within the revolutionary forces themselves. Since the first five months after the M-26-7 victory were rather chaotic, I hadn't thought that the situation had reached a degree of clarity such that the concept "dissident" would have had any currency. In the case of Huber Matos, I have read that it was Guevara who later that same year saved him from the death penalty. BTW have you had a look at 216 Documented Victims of Che Guevara ... ? I believe that this page was originally brought to my attention by our friend EJ. It includes a list of all those individuals executed at La Cabaña during Guevara's tenure for whom the author has been able to find documentary evidence, and the total is only 164; unfortunately, he does not include a description of the charges against each. Anyway, I am definitely no expert on this subject matter and would just like to suggest that we all do our best to bring whatever light we can to bear on this murky period. -- Polaris999 02:12, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I never considered that the source I brought would be sufficient to hold the claim, but I made the edit because I think it is good enough for removing the fact tag and forcing us to come to a consensus about whether the claim stays or goes. I'm completely open on this point and wouldn't suggest that the one source I provided would be enough to pass the high bar of verifiability implied for a featured article on a controversial topic. Btw, I would have been surprised if neither you nor Zleitzen had challenged that source ;) Dasondas 06:29, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Here's a few accounts to add to the pot.

• Richard Gott, in Cuba : A new history states "several hundred former Batista associates, policemen and torturers were shot by firing squad after perfunctory trials". p168
• Hugh Thomas, in Cuba the pursuit of freedom, states that 200 people were shot after the tribunals, all for murder or torture. Thomas goes on to say, "many of those shot richly deserved it, by most criteria" p726
• Angelo Trento, in Castro and Cuba says that there were approx. 400 capital sentences for "people who had collaborated with Batista's repressive regime"
• Jon Lee Anderson states the executions were of "deputies, rank and file chivatos and police torturers" p388

It would be good to have a strong selection of sources to cover this most controversial section of the page.--Zleitzen 14:09, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Indeed EJ appears to be facing a period of dissidence on wikipedia as we write. Another user has taken issue with his refusal to register alongside his robust talk page activity on various pages, I am at present attempting to broker a resolution to ensure his continued participation! --Zleitzen 00:26, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I've brought this up, on the 'talk pages' of Cuba, Fidel Castro and Raul Castro. Though El Jigue, may be a popular (or at least engaging) anon-user, his continuous gossiping on article-related events, are clogging up space. This gossiping should stop, an irresponsible popular anon-user (El Jigue); is still an irresponsible anon user. This gossiping is against Misplaced Pages policy; hey, I didn't set the policies. GoodDay 01:26, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

I have posted my comments at User_talk:Durova#El_Jigue -- Polaris999 06:11, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

In all probability these numbers are low even for the first six months. Personally I remember the horror of fellow rebels (most front-line rebels disliked executions) when report came in of 100 killed by Raul in a single day in Santiago. However, perhaps the major point is that these executions did not stop after the early months and accelerated as time went on and the resistance known as the "War Against the Bandits" came, grew strong, and was repressed (circa 1967). Total executions in Cuba are usually given as in excess of 10,000, a round and thus imprecise number.

Beruvides, Esteban M 1992 Cuba y sus Mártires. Cuban Historical Association, Miami Library of Congreso number 92072567 lists by name and when possible date of death well over 4,000. "Accidental" shooting deaths were so common in those early days that there were editorials in newspapers still not under governmen control (e.g. Prensa Libre) protesting their occurrence. An very readable account of some of the horror of those days is given in: Plimpton, George 1977 Shadow box. G.P. Putnam’s Sons. New York. SBN 399119957 especially pp. 143-149. The relationship of Mark Herman to the Che Guevara is not clear to me but I am under the impression that he was under the direct orders of Guevara. El Jigue 11-8-06

"Che" derived from the Mapuche?

A correspondent tells me that: "Che, is a colloquial address in Argentina and Paraguay, with roots in the Mapuche indigenous word Che, meaning people. Calling someone Che implies the belonging to one's own people (as paisano is used in Cuban vernacular)." It is a common given among the less educated in Argentina that they are "Europeans" however even the most cursory examination of features of rural and some urban populations demonstrates that they carry indigenous traits. This custom may date from the times of the genocidal tyrant Rosas, when to admit that one was indigenous was not the safest thing in the world. El Jigue 11-8-06

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