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Title

In its short existence, this article has already been moved twice three a staggering eight times. The issue seems to be whether what happened was an incident or a massacre. Before we descend into a revert/move war, please discuss the article's title here. Aecis 16:08, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

I prefer massacre. Since it was apparently deliberate, killing many civilians, and widely called so--Nielswik_(talk) 16:16, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

It wasn't deliberate. If you'll check the facts you see that only one shell, out of 12 shot, hit the Palestinians. A straying shell is an accident, and since there was no intention killing civilians - it is not a massacre. MathKnight 16:50, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

According to the IDF none of the massacres it has commited throughout history was deliberate. You are mistaking fact for PR and taking one side's statements at face value. I vote for massacre since it involves the shelling of a mosque in which the IDF knew there were women and children protecting militants.--Burgas00 18:58, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

IDF knew there were women and children protecting militants - well, you admit the IDF targeted militants who used civilians as human shield. Hence, not a massacre. MathKnight 21:01, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Hahaha, according to IDF? Do you honestly believe they would explicity state they're murdering civilians deliberately? It's like saying, "According to Hitler, Jews are quite evil."

To MathKnight please read some articles... This is take from the Guardian:

"At least 19 Palestinians were killed and 40 wounded when FIVE ISRAELI SHELLS hit a row of houses in the northern Gaza town of Beit ber Hanoun this morning."

"A further FIVE OR SIX landed in the same vicinity over a period of 15 minutes, witnesses said."

It was definately at least 5-6 shells that landed in the same neighborhood district of Beit Hanoun, why on Earth and how on Earth the Israeli's targeted a village which is right on the Israeli border and has nothing to do with the Hamas rocket attacks is a mystery to me. They definately cannot hide behind their usual excuse of "Civilians caught in crossfire...etc..." for justifying civilian deaths anymore. As clearly there was no reason to even fire at this town. They were no militant activity at all in this town, in fact it again says on the Guardian the alleged "target", the IDF Artillery was supposed to fire at was at least 1 mile away from Beit Hanoun. I'd definately label it a massacre, it's the same as what happened in Qana, Shiyyah, Shatila, or the tons of other "incidents" of "accidental" civlian casualties. Israel's policy coudln't be anymore blatantly obvious; of targetting civlians deliberately to inflame and incite an uprising or counterattacks by Hamas or Hezbollah just so they can then justify even more extensive military operations.

Call it what it is, killing an innocennt family in their home with artillery? This is a massacre, better yet war-crime...

P.S. Oh SUPRISE, SUPRISE, MathKnight is an Israeli as well... please we don't need your pro-Zionist agenda in another Israel-related article, it is a massacre, like it or not the IDF has committed another massacre, please face the truth... 203.134.146.126 19:06, 8 November 2006 (UTC)Amir

"Witnesses said" and we know how reliable Palestinian witnesses are (they blame the IDF with radioactive candy bars and "500 massacred in Jenin". The Guardian claim it was by "tank fire" which is absurd since no tank was around miles away. According to Haaretz: "The IDF confirmed that an artillery battery containing 12 shells had aimed at a site from where Qassam rockets were fired at the southern city Ashkelon on Tuesday. The artillery fire had been intended for a location about half a kilometer from the Beit Hanun houses. At this stage it is unclear whether the incident was caused by a technical or human error." There was no intention of massacre, and the incident was a mistake as the article indicates. Further more, Israel vowed regret over the incident (unlike Palestinian terrorists who declare publicly that their intention is to kill as many civilians as possible) Since you are seeking Zionist conspiracy in every corener ("Israel's policy coudln't be anymore blatantly obvious; of targetting civlians deliberately to inflame and incite an uprising or counterattacks by Hamas or Hezbollah just so they can then justify even more extensive military operations.") you won't be bothered by the truth. Your need of Ed Huminem show that you have nothing but hatred at your side. MathKnight 21:01, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Massacre - whether deliberate or not. --TheFEARgod (Ч) 21:02, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Massacre must be deliberate. Accident is no massacre. MathKnight 21:04, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

yes the grenades were exploded by accident --TheFEARgod (Ч) 21:26, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

What about another name such as "killings" or "shelling"? If not I would prefer "massacre". There is no evidence that this was a rogue shell other than the IDF's statement. Why should they be automatically believed when Human Rights Watch and others have poured scorn on IDF internal investigations? An 'incident' is:

• 1 A definite and separate occurrence; an event.
• 2 A usually minor event or condition that is subordinate to another.
• 3 Something contingent on or related to something else.
• 4 An occurrence or event that interrupts normal procedure or precipitates a crisis: an international incident.

If 1, then it's a very bland/meaningless description (it might as well be "Something happened on 8th Nov...'). If 2 or 3 it's diminishing the significance of these deaths relative to other deaths in this conflict. If 4, I can't see this disrupting normal procedure... sadly it's perfectly normal at the moment.Puddleman 03:07, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I also prefer massacre. "incident" or "accidental killing" is quite funny. missing artillery couldn't go a mile away. It is widely called massacre (of course not in Israel) But i think we don't need "November 2006" things,

--Nielswik_(talk) 04:58, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Since your the IDF expert here MathKnight, please do explain how it was an accident and show some proof. "Massacre": The word massacre has a number of meanings, but most commonly refers to individual events of deliberate and direct mass killing, especially of noncombatant civilians or other innocents without any reasonable means of defense...

Since it is being established whether this was truly accidental or not doesn't matter, the way in which the unarmed civilians were killed, the location of the killing and the fact there was no link to any rocket-launching sites in Beit Hanoun which the IDF were supposedly after is reason enough to call this a massacre. All the other so called "accidental" attacks on civilians by Israel in the past are called massacres, Qana, Shatila, etc... why isn't this one?

The only person here who disagrees is MathKnight, and his judgement is quite questionable, since he's trying desperately to defend Israel's actions and IDF's motive. I think we should VOTE. 210.50.228.5 06:33, 9 November 2006 (UTC)Amir

Stop use Ed Huminem arguments. It is a violation of Wiki-ettiquete.MathKnight 12:33, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Agree. I vote for massacre --Nielswik_(talk) 08:32, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

You can vote that the earth is flat, but unless there is an evidence that the tragedy was deliberate, this will stay as incident. ←Humus sapiens 10:36, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

The militants was a mile away, Israel's shell could't have missed that far --Nielswik_(talk) 10:54, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

And you said this as a qualified artillery officer? For BTVR shelling, about a mile off is a reasonable deviation range, a specialy if the coordinates were misfed or there was an error in the gun controls computer. One evidence that the incident was an accident is that only 1-2 shells hit and not the whole 12. Believe me, if the IDF wanted to massacre, he was shelling the town itself with more than 12 shells. MathKnight 12:33, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Belive me, if IDF whant a masscre, it will make sure it can later claimed it was an accidental. 1 mile is reasonable deviation range? In that case, do they ever hit anyone? We are not talking about rock-slingers. --Striver 12:39, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

"Normal" deviation was 200-300 meters --Nielswik_(talk) 14:52, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Btw, MathKnight it's Ad Hominem, not Ed Huminem, I don't think you properly understand what an Ad Hominem arguement is, since I am not using one. Must I again repeat myself? READ THIS ARTICLE : http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,1942339,00.html?gusrc=rss&feed=12

LOOK PLEASE:

"Witnesses said that the first shell hit a home, causing deaths and injuries." "A further five or six shells landed in the same vicinity over a period of 15 minutes, witnesses said."

At least 5 shells landed in Beit Hanoun, probably more, it was not 1 or 2 as you claim. Get the facts right please! Even CNN is reporting it as 6 shells.

Standard Deviation in modern artillery systems of something like a couple of hundred metres is ok. Israel uses the M109 Paladin as their main Artillery howitzers.

According to http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m109a6.htm, the M109A6 Paladin which Israel uses can hit a tank-sized target 10km away within MOA of 200-375m, and standard spread of 20m. This means a shell fired will land somewhere within a 200-375m metre diameter circle around the target with a spacing between each subsequent shot of usually 20m.

Since the target of Beit Hanoun was engaged by Israeli Artillery only a few kilometres away across the Israeli border, the standard deviation from the actual target should have been under 100m easily. The only way an artillery barrage like this could end more than a mile from the intended target would have to be incorrect orders/instructions/coordinates, which I highly doubt. Either way, Israel's usual excuse would of "accidental fire" would hold, but because of the particularly large condemnation from EU, UN, Human Rights Watch, Red Cross and so on, and because of the nature of the attack, (an entire family being killed), I really think this deserves the title of massacre. It had no military merit whatsoever.

210.50.228.5 15:22, 9 November 2006 (UTC)Amir

True. Also, 6 shells could not deviate altogether at a same time --Nielswik_(talk) 15:41, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

The Guardian still insist it was "Children among 19 killed by Israeli tank fire" while it was artillery fire. Haaretz report that: "following the killing of 19 Palestinian civilians by errant shelling in Beit Hanun on Wednesday. Peretz also decided that from now on all artillery fire must be approved by GOC Southern Command Yoav Galant, or his superior officers." and that "The inquiry found that a technical problem in the artillery battery's radar, which was replaced just last week, was the cause of the errant fire. That explains the diversion of the shells and prooves it was an accident and not deliberate. MathKnight 19:36, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

P.S. The IDF uses an older M109A1 and not Paladin M109A6. MathKnight 19:41, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

NPOV policy requires that titles be Neutral. I have fixed this as per notation on WP:ANI. RunedChozo 22:23, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

"Incident" is not neutral. There must be a better term to use between 'incident' which has connotations of a 'random act of God' or something totally unexpected, which when an army fires shells in the vicinty of civilians deaths can not be, and 'massacre' which implies a deliberately perpetrated mass killing. Shelling, killings, attack or something else like this has to fit the bill.Puddleman 03:29, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

"Massacre" is an utterly POV title. IronDuke 03:43, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Based on English Google, 'Massacre' outnumbers 'Incident' by a 1.6 margin. "Attack" is more common than either of those terms, and "Killing" is higher even. Incident seems like sugar-coating what the NPOV reality is in the English speaking world and press outside Misplaced Pages. Perhaps 'Killing' or 'Attack' is better? Thanks. Kiyosaki 09:46, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Note that not all 'incident' google hit refer to this massacre. There are many incident happened in Beit Hanoun due to israeli invasion in gaza --Nielswik_(talk) 10:08, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

So you figured out that Googletest is inaccurate and the internet is POV, get yourself a medal. ←Humus sapiens 11:21, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Final warning

Ok, I've had enough of it. This article has been moved eight times in the eleven hours that it exists. The last three moves occurred in the space of twenty minutes. Whoever moves the page again before consensus has been reached, will be blocked for 24 hours. Anyone. Even if you move it back to the current title. Aecis 23:22, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Since all editor except MathKnight agree, can we move it back to massacre now?

All editors - I think not all editors were consulated - so the answer is no. --ArmadilloFromHell 06:09, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Beit Hanoun "incident"??? Is this a joke? Move it back to massacre. This title is extremely offensive to the victims.--Burgas00 17:35, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

You saw this warning, but chose to ignore it anyway. You have been blocked for 24 hours. Aecis 18:23, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

By not reverting the title back to NPOV, we are rewarding such behavior. ←Humus sapiens 21:52, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Merge

Is Israeli shelling of Beit Hanoun a NPOV title? That article also has pictures, something this one lacks. --Striver 11:30, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Could we have more gory pictures, to show how bloodthirsty those Joos Zionists really are. Striclty for NPOV. ←Humus sapiens 11:40, 10 November 2006 (UTC)