Misplaced Pages

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Daniel575 (talk | contribs) at 08:45, 13 November 2006 (→Biased Article). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Expansion

This article badly needs to be expanded. If we compare this to the article 'Deir Yassin massacre', the difference is striking. Please join in and expand. --Daniel575 | (talk) 14:15, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Survivor accounts

There is nothing wrong with the account of Rabbi Kaplan. If anybody minds the site which it is hosted on, I will place it on my own site and link to that. That solves that problem. All survivor accounts are welcome, whether they are pro-Zionist or anti-Zionist. I believe the account by Rabbi Kaplan to be fully factual and correct. If anybody disagrees, they are welcome to add other survivor accounts also. But deleting this one merely because it does not portray the Zionists in a positive light is crazy. It was written by a very well-respected rabbi who later became the head of one of the biggest Jewish girl's schools in New York. His religious views on Zionism are not controversial either, they are held by hundreds of thousands of other Haredi Jews. --Daniel575 | (talk) 14:15, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Can you provide a reliable source for his quotation ? Amoruso 14:20, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

As it says, it is a transcript from a speech he held in Yiddish. I have spoken to people who knew him. He died a while ago. The speech can be found on several websites, and is well known in Haredi circles. There is nothing unreliable about it. There are also German and Dutch translations of it around. --Daniel575 | (talk) 14:23, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Ok. now, I propse deleting this . And have a "see also" for 1929 riots. :

The other major centers of violence were in Safed, where 18 Jews were killed in a brief attack.

During the week of riots, the fatalities were:

Killed: 133 Jews, 116 Arabs.

Wounded: 339 Jews, 232 Arabs.

Amoruso 14:25, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

"Rabbi Kaplans tape is available in the Otzer Emunah Tape Library of Monsey: (845)426-6812" Or go to Rabbi Kaplan's family, they run the Beis Yaakov of Boro Park, where he was the principle. Now - what do you propose deleting? --Daniel575 | (talk) 14:26, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Added a 'see also'. --Daniel575 | (talk) 14:27, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

"The next Friday, 23 August, Arabs, inflamed by rumors that two Arabs had been killed by Jews, started an attack on Jews in the Old City." Which Old City? Jerusalem or Hebron? Needs to be clarified. The current link 'Old City' redirects to 'Jerusalem's Old City walls'. If we are talking about the Old City of Hebron, this is incorrect. --Daniel575 | (talk) 14:41, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

I want to delete the section about the riots elsewhere (it's not the place, it should only be in the 1929 riots article), not the quote. About the old city, it's jerusalem, maybe should also be deleted. Amoruso 14:44, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Survivor Accounts Part Deux

I think Kaplan account, particularly the characterization that the "Zionists are to blame" is irrelevant to the 1929 Hebron Massacre itself. This is not an article about Zionism. Its an article about a historical event. --Meshulam 19:09, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

It is about the reasons for what happened. The background. Everything that happened. Delete this and we delete the whole article. And, indeed the Zionists are to blame for it, as he explains. Also, note that this is not just 'some idiot' or so, but the founder and long-time director of the largest BY of Boro Park. --Daniel575 | (talk) 21:44, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

The issue isn't his credibility. The issue is the relevance of his statement that the Zionists are at fault. That kind of theological argument has nothing to do with the event itself. Your statement "delete this and we delete the while article" is rather strange. The event exists in isolation, though there might have been historical factors that contributed to its occurrence. The opinions of one person regarding the theological implications of the event after the fact don't have anything to do with the event itself. I'm seeking a consensus. Right now there are only the two of us. Perhaps someone else will chime in and break the tie. --Meshulam 22:21, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

People, let's keep the original version. Daniel has been polite and very productive on the article - Meshulam , he's the one who pushed the article to be created and he wants to show all the arab atrocities and so on - he's not against the zionists. He just wanted to bring this account. He himself is the one who added the disagreement sentence which shows good faith from him. This section will be expanded So think about it as 1 account in what will become 10 or more - this person too is entitled to his opinion. Let's not fight over this. One person saying it doesn't make it true Meshulam and it says that others disagree with him. It's only cited as an account, not as something with great importance, and it's NPOV . Amoruso 00:30, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

The issue was relevance, not POV. I care little about Daniel's motives. It is the relevance of certain statements that I question. Regardless, a consensus has been met (in the absence of any other opinions). I'm willing to go along with it. --Meshulam 03:58, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

I am against the Zionists, Amoruso. But on religious grounds only. I am an Israeli and a Jew, and I am a realist. On religious grounds I am strongly anti-Zionist. I am convinced that Rav Kaplan's account of the background of what happened is the most correct one. And correct- there should be at least 10 accounts. Many people did survive and I am sure that there are many survivor accounts. We should have more of them. Having few is not a reason to exclude one of them. If you don't like what this survivor says, bring stories of other survivors, instead of censoring this one. --Daniel575 | (talk) 07:38, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Daniel, you changed the line even though this was the original line you wrote (I think) . I think "many" is now also not balanced, i'll propose something else. Amoruso 07:54, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

btw, I also think Kaplan is correct in the sense that the attacks occured mostly because of Zionism. If jews had no national aspirations and would have been polite and nice enough to the Arabs then pogroms would happen from time to time but probably not something like this. Arabs generally accept Jews living as dhimmi and as what many will perceive as humiliated. Amoruso 08:02, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

I have no desire to censor. But I think this is more than an account per se. Rather, this is retroactive opinion mongering on the part of someone who is really in no better position to assess the theological aspects of the situation than you or myself. I would like to see some accounts, as in what happened at that time! It is clear that you know more than I do about the 1929 massacres. Perhaps you should find some accounts.--Meshulam 18:15, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

I will add more accounts... but it's all very time consuming you know. Btw, interestingly, Meir Kahane agreed that this massacre occured because of Zionism - because the Arabs' refusal for any recognition of a Jewish political state, of any power. This is on youtube. Thing is, Kaplan believes this to be some revelation that diminishes the evilness of the Arabs and I think not. The murders are evil regardless of the Arabs' motives. Obvioiusly SOME motive exists with every murder. Amoruso 04:58, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't see any reason to dedicate an entire section of this article to Kaplan, other than to promote a certain POV. ←Humus sapiens 08:55, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

This article comes across with a strong "Arabs were murderous and hated the Jews" sub-text.

It may be normal to write in this fashion in some parts of the world, but in western nations it will tend to be seen as expressing "racist hatred", and its presence in the encyclopedia will look like a considerable demerit.

If bitterness has to be included, then it is of the utmost importance to include clear mention of the other sources putting the trouble down to aggressive immigrants, not native Jews. (Kaplan comes across as pretty credible, he's by no means alone in his attitude).

PalestineRemembered 16:38, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Correct. I placed it back. With that, the tags are also gone. I hope the article remains normal, now. --Daniel575 | (talk) 18:44, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

One fringe opinion (even if corresponds to your own) doesn't make it "normal". See WP:NPOV#Undue weight. ←Humus sapiens 09:31, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Biased Article

This article appears to me to be pretty biased in pro-jewish/pro-zionist way. No context on why the massacre occurred, but detailed accounts of what was done to the Jews. It seems to me that the debate above about quoting Rabbi Baruch Kaplan is all about obscuring any possible role that the Jewish/Zionist community had in the days leading up to the massacre. Proper context is not irrelevent to the event contrary to Meshulam's claims above.

Agreed. Those who try to hide Rabbi Kaplan's testimony do so in a false attempt to hide the fact that the Zionists are the ones responsible for what happened. --Daniel575 | (talk) 22:36, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

It is not fact, but an opinion, a condescending, racist and offensive opinion. As if the Arabs are little children, easily provoked and irresponsible for their own actions. Adults should take responsibility for their actions. Equality please. ←Humus sapiens 09:04, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Humus, I don't think that is a good case. We should be dispassionately reporting what the opinions of eyewitnesses were, not arguing whether those opinions were good, bad or ugly. --Zero 23:30, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Either the section remains, or the article will be permanently marked POV and disputed. I will not agree or succumb to Zionist POV pushing on this article. Some people will surely find his comments offensive. Just like I find all Zionist opinions offensive and racist. I am not deleting other testimonies from the article either. Not everyone agrees with your view, accept that. I am reverting once more to my last version. If you again remove the section, the article will be permanenently labeled POV and Disputed. --Daniel575 | (talk) 09:19, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

You mean labeled POV, it has nothing to do with disputed. You know, WH questions. I don't think the article deals with the WHY anyway, so it's not POV either, but certainly your objections doesn't deal with the what. Amoruso 10:05, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

The truthful nature of the article is disputed, if that section is again removed. As I have said before, I am not going to allow a Zionist take-over of this article. All viewpoints have to be presented. You don't like this testimony? Fine, then find others which you do like and add them, instead of deleting this one. What he writes is true and according to many others who were involved - such as the son of a survivor I have personally spoken to a few months ago - rabbi Kaplan's account is completely correct. --Daniel575 | (talk) 13:45, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

For content issue, see WP:NPOV#Undue weight. For that attitude, see WP:OWN. ←Humus sapiens 22:56, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

It would be better to have a solid third-party report, but this opinion should be represented somehow (I'm not necessarily supporting the offered version). A considerable part of the Jewish community in Hebron were anti-Zionist Jews who blamed the Zionists for the animosity between the Jews and the Arabs. That is a true feature of the story that is almost always suppressed. We should not be arguing about whether the fact that this opinion was held should be included, but only about how to include it. --Zero 23:30, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Correct. The vast majority of those killed were yeshiva students, like Rabbi Kaplan. If you want to know the truth of what happened, ask the other yeshiva students. The Zionist version of it is completely twisted to fit their view of the world. Ask the ones who represent the yeshiva world. --Daniel575 | (talk) 08:45, 13 November 2006 (UTC)