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As he's Hungarian, is his name "Árpád Élő" or "Élő Árpád"? If Élő is indeed his family name (as the article implies), I'm fairly certain his names are in the wrong order in the introduction. Of course, he may be an exception to the rule. Xyzzyva 17:53, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
Name of article
Why the unexplained move some time ago from Arpad Elo to Árpád Élő? That is one of the most egregious abuses of the Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions rules I have ever seen. Naming conventions in general are based on how a person/place/thing/whatever is best known in English.
In this case, we can just as well look at how this world-renowned person (at least in the rating system for which he is the eponym) is known in any language whatsoever, and the results would be the same.
Here we have an American who spent all, or at least almost all, of his life in the United States, According to the introduction of the article itself, he himself spelled his name Arpad Elo. Any chess playing he did that is remembered today was done as an American whose name was Arpad Elo; his development of the rating system took place after he had been an American for decades.
He is best known, of course, in connection with the Elo rating system. Nobody ever uses anything other than Elo or ELO in connection with that rating system; nor has anyone found any reason to add any redirects from anything other than variants including one of those spellings.
In a Google search for the exact phrase "Elo rating system", and excluding articles with the word "Misplaced Pages" to lower the effect of the usage here on the results, there are 986 hits, of which 409 of them are displayed in the results. So what do those results show:
- In none of them is the spelling in connection with the rating system "Élő". It is always "Elo" or "ELO".
- Only two of those 409, in the key word in context display of the results, include the "Élő" spelling anywhere in those results, and one of them is a webpage in Chinese or some other East Asian language. That's despite the Élő spelling being used in the search itself. In those two cases, it is used in the name "Árpád Élő", and both could well result from the usage here on Misplaced Pages.
Actually, we also don't even have any evidence whatsoever of what the original spelling in any of his birth records or whatever in his part of Austria-Hungary would have been over a century ago, either, even if that had any relevance to the article name itself. Not even from any unreliable source (other than Misplaced Pages itself), let alone any reliable source. No discussion whatsoever of the name change other than the name order comment above which came in only recently, not related to the move much earlier, and that issue is also addressed somewhere in naming conventions; even if he had remained a Hungarian, it should be given name first in the English Misplaced Pages.
Clearly this is a misnomer. Yes, a redirect should exist from Árpád Élő, and it remains behind. It certainly should not be the name of the article, however. Gene Nygaard 23:00, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
User:Calton trying to pick a fight
User:Calton is trying to start irrational edit warring over the name of this article. I challenge him to provide any justification whatsoever for his move.
This is a copy of a message I posted on his talk page:
What, exactly, is the idea of moving Arpad Elo to a name nobody, ever, anywhere uses, outside an old Misplaced Pages listing and its clones. A move totally contrary to everything in Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions. A name totally contrary to common sense.
No, this is not another unilateral move. It is a longstanding article name, discussed without objection on the talk page. This is an American university professor and chess player, not known under any spelling other than "Arpad Elo" in any chess publications, not known under any spelling other than "Arpad Elo" in connection with his professorship at Marquette University.
He is best known for developing a chess ranking system. A system that is always, universally, everywhere in the world, known as the "Elo" system, though it is sometimes capitalized as the "ELO" system, often because people don't realize it is a person's name and mistakenly think it is an acronym.
Now, please move that back, or I will have to find the appropriate place for a complaint against your actions.
Can you cite any verifiable, reliable source showing that Arpad Elo ever used any other spelling, that he was ever known under any other spelling in any chess tournament, that he was ever known under any other spelling as a professor? I bet not. Gene Nygaard 05:15, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
- Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (people) is pretty clear that articles about people should 1) use the most generally recognizable name and 2) be in English. Unless I'm missing something here I'll revert to the English spelling tomorrow. --Duk 07:29, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Requested move
Multiple moves, as listed below — Revert a series of edits by Mibelz, most or all of them chess related, all made without discussion. The ones listed here are contrary to naming conventions standards. Many of these people have moved to English-speaking countries and are known for their history in chess competitions under the original article name, and many are also known as authors (especially of books about chess) of English-language books published under that name. In many Mibelz has also deliberately added incorrect sort keys which result in the articles being mis-sorted in categories. In the listing below, I have included some additional identifying information, with User:Mibelz edit summaries when making the move placed in quotation marks. Gene Nygaard 09:16, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
- Árpád Élő → Arpad Elo American, Mibelz edit summary "Hungarian form of his name." Note subsequent moves by Gene Nygaard and Calton, ending up where Mibelz moved it.
- István Fazekas → Stefan Fazekas British, summary "Hungarian form of his first name."
- Iossif Dorfman → Josif Dorfman French, summary "French form of his first name."
- Michał Waszyński → Michael Waszynski American, summary "Polish form of his name", was moved from Michal Waszynski but article says in the United States, he was known as Michael Waszynski (he died 1965), no spelling Michał in article itself
- Stanisław Ulam → Stanislaw Ulam American, moved from Stanisław Marcin Ulam without edit summary
- Povilas Tautvaišas → Paul Tautvaisas American, summary "Lithuanian form of his name."
- Elmārs Zemgalis → Elmars Zemgalis American, summary "Latvian form of his first name."
- Kārlis Ozols → Karlis Ozols Australian, summary "Latvian form of his first name."
- Géza Füster → Geza Fuster Canadian, summary "Hungarian form of his name."
- Lucijs Endzelins → Lucius Endzelins Australian, summary "Latvian form of his first name."
- Luděk Pachman → Ludek Pachman German, author of English-language books as Ludek Pachman, summary "Czech form of his first name."
- Pál Benkő → Pal Benko French-born American, summary "Hungarian form of his name"
- Vladimir Vuković → Vladimir Vukovic author of English-language book as Vladimir Vukovic
- Gedeon Barcza → Gideon Barcza competed as and best known in English as Gideon, summary "Correct Hungarian form of his first name."
- There may be other such moves by Mibelz that are questionable: some I don't know what they should be, and they are probably best dealt with individually if anybody wants to nominate them separately. Some other moves by Mibelz have already been undone or moved to name different from either of them, including Leonardo da Cutri → Giovanni Leonardo, Jevgēņijs Svešņikovs → Evgeny Sveshnikov, Lubomir Ftacnik → Lubomir Ftáčnik, and Efim Bogoljubow → Efim Bogoljubov.
- I suggest to look at solid sources on chess. One of the best is http://www.olimpbase.org/ (see, http://www.olimpbase.org/statistics/all_id01.html). Special attention to such persons as Gene Nygaard and his supporters. -- Mibelz 10:54, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
Survey
- Add * '''Support''' or * '''Oppose''' on a new line followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~.
- I support in some cases the English variant (Arpad Elo for example), that is in cases where the people lived most of their lives in English speaking countries and used the English variant of spelling. In other cases I oppose (e.g. Luděk Pachman, who was not German but Czech and I myself own some books authored by him as Luděk Pachman) - then the local version should be retained. So we should deal it on a case-by-case basis, I think.--Ioannes Pragensis 10:45, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
- If it is first reverted, and the burden of justifying the unexplained move is placed on those seeking to move it, I have no problem pulling Luděk Pachman out for individual consideration. We can just move the discussion for that particular move back to the moved talk page. But to do it any other way, in light of this string of hasty, unexplained, and largely improper moves, would not be fair. The burden of proof belongs on User:Mibelz. Since Pachman published several books and they were published in more than one language, it may well be that they were published under various spellings of his name, and there is also the factor of the name under which he competed in international competitions. Then the question becomes whether he is well known in English under one of those, and whether or not there is any real cause to make the move for that or any other reason. Gene Nygaard 14:17, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
- Strong Oppose Correct name is as it currently is (Árpád Élő).--Húsönd 15:56, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
- Also strongly opposing the following associated proposed moves: Michał Waszyński, Stanisław Ulam, Povilas Tautvaišas, Elmārs Zemgalis, Kārlis Ozols, Géza Füster, Luděk Pachman, Pál Benkő and Vladimir Vuković.--Húsönd 16:05, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
- Arpad Elo never spelled it any other way. He never published anything about his Elo rating system under any other name (setting aside irrelevant things such as initials or use of middle name), and nobody ever spells that system with anything other than "Elo" or "ELO" (except some of the nonsense we have seen on Misplaced Pages, also picked up by some clones). He never competed in a chess tournament under any other name. He never taught a class under any other name. And even in death, he is "ARPAD ELO" in the Social Security Death Index. Árpád Élő cannot possibly be the "correct" title according to Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions. User:Husond just becomes totally irrational when it comes to slapping on diacritics even in places where they do not belong. Gene Nygaard 16:20, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
- Don't mock my neurons, Gene. Make a quick search for Árpád Élő and you'll soon see that that's the correct name of that person, whether or not most have referred to him without the diacritics. I should also remind you that in the very recent past it was extremely hard to reproduce the Hungarian letter "ő" (not long ago computer fonts didn't have it) so no wonder he has been credited without it. But that's not an excuse for misspelling the name as you fancy it.--Húsönd 21:38, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
- Arpad Elo never spelled it any other way. He never published anything about his Elo rating system under any other name (setting aside irrelevant things such as initials or use of middle name), and nobody ever spells that system with anything other than "Elo" or "ELO" (except some of the nonsense we have seen on Misplaced Pages, also picked up by some clones). He never competed in a chess tournament under any other name. He never taught a class under any other name. And even in death, he is "ARPAD ELO" in the Social Security Death Index. Árpád Élő cannot possibly be the "correct" title according to Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions. User:Husond just becomes totally irrational when it comes to slapping on diacritics even in places where they do not belong. Gene Nygaard 16:20, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
- Also strongly opposing the following associated proposed moves: Michał Waszyński, Stanisław Ulam, Povilas Tautvaišas, Elmārs Zemgalis, Kārlis Ozols, Géza Füster, Luděk Pachman, Pál Benkő and Vladimir Vuković.--Húsönd 16:05, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
- Couldn't care less which spelling is used, but we shouldn't be fighting about it. Articles should be named according to the guidelines. If people don't like the guidelines then they should take the debate there. How would wikipedia function if every time an editor disagreed with a guideline they started a poll outside the guideline talk page to subvert it? Once editors become emotionally vested in a debate to such an extent that it becomes non-productive fighting, then those editors should set it aside and find something else to work on. I mentioned above that I was going to rename the article per Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (people) after a day, but fuck it - I'm learning not to fight over stupid shit. --Duk 16:23, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
- What would you have? Nobody can ever move pages? That isn't acceptable either. Or would you have it that every article can be moved once, and then that move must always be deemed correct? That's silly, too. If they can move pages, those page moves are often going to be wrong, and need to be corrected. Those guidelines do give us guidance about what the names should be. But in order to apply those guidelines, there often needs to be interpretation of the facts involved. Wibelz did not claim his moves were in accordance with the guidelines, and many clearly were not. Some not nominated here may have been justified, but no case for them was made in any discussion either. They clearly ought to remain subject to challenge. What we have here is an editor making a series of moves disregarding those guidelines, making those moves without discussion and without justification. That's why this discussion belongs here. It does not belong on the guidelines pages. Gene Nygaard 16:37, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
- OK, you make good points about discussing it here. I know it's frustrating for an editor to try and do the right thing in a consistent way according to the guidelines, only to watch others ignore the guidelines. In this case it's clear, articles about people should 1) use the most generally recognizable name and 2) be in English. Since some editors don't accept this simple and clear instruction, then their problem is with the guideline and not with this particular article. That's why it doesn't make sense to argue about it here -- unless you can get them to actually read the guideline, understand it and conclude that guidelines are generally helpful and should usually (but not necessarily always) be followed. So discussing is good, but a poll in the wrong place that subverts a guideline isn't so good IMO. --Duk 17:25, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
- What would you have? Nobody can ever move pages? That isn't acceptable either. Or would you have it that every article can be moved once, and then that move must always be deemed correct? That's silly, too. If they can move pages, those page moves are often going to be wrong, and need to be corrected. Those guidelines do give us guidance about what the names should be. But in order to apply those guidelines, there often needs to be interpretation of the facts involved. Wibelz did not claim his moves were in accordance with the guidelines, and many clearly were not. Some not nominated here may have been justified, but no case for them was made in any discussion either. They clearly ought to remain subject to challenge. What we have here is an editor making a series of moves disregarding those guidelines, making those moves without discussion and without justification. That's why this discussion belongs here. It does not belong on the guidelines pages. Gene Nygaard 16:37, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
- Support. This is the English version of the encylopedia and articles should have names using the English alphabet. Most English language keyboards can't even type many of the names above. I have no problem with there being a redirect from the native language version in cases where the language uses Latin letters. Please see Misplaced Pages:Naming conventions (use English) for guidance. --StuffOfInterest 17:38, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
- I am afraid that Gene Nygaard does not understand an idea to write names in original languages (Latin alphabet). All of the presented examples were written first in English, and then moved to native names. In that case, it is always possible to find a name of wanted person, for every users who know only English version or non-English one (Lithuanian, Latvian, Hungarian, Czech, Polish, Croatian, etc.). --Mibelz 23:55, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Discussion
- Add any additional comments:
The original names (in their own languages)
There is a discussion on correctness of original names usage. I suggest to look at solid sources on chess. One of the best is http://www.olimpbase.org/ (see, http://www.olimpbase.org/statistics/all_id01.html). Special attention to such persons as Gene Nygaard and his supporters. -- Mibelz 10:54, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
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