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Talk:Visual novel

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To discuss the terminology of anime games, it is suggested you use Talk:List of video games based on anime or manga rather than one of the talk pages for its five subgenres.

Shibboleth, why did you redirect the page, despite the passionate comments by the previous anonymous contributor? Paranoid 10:41, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Changes

Nice to see an "anime game" section article that was actually balanced, mostly accurate, and well written. I've made several changes to correct a few misconceptions that had crept in, particularly:

  • "Kinetic Novel" is a proprietary term that refers only to the VisualArt's titles "Planetarian", "Maiden Halo", "カレと彼の間で", "TRANCEキッス", and "神曲奏界ポリフォニカ".
  • Visual novels were never always ren'ai games - there are horror examples from the mid-1990s on the Super Famicom ("Otogirisou", "Kamaitachi no yoru", "Gakkou de atta kowai hanashi" and so on).

Haeleth 22:03, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

Why thank you. --Shii/Ashibaka (tock) 22:20, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

VN. vs AVG

An acquaintance of mine who is knowledgable about the genre (Olf le Fol; you may know him) complained that this article is backwards; visual novels are a subset of adventure games, not the other way around. He also said that some game articles are tagged as VNs when the Japanese consider them AVGs (Atlach=Nacha was implied, though I haven't played it, and Yami to Bōshi to Hon no Tabibito is probably one from my own observations.) If this is the case, can we remedy this without making the article terminally confusing for the English-speaking gamer? -Seventh Holy Scripture 17:33, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

I read it as giving NVL and AVG as roughly synonymous, which in practice I think they are, in English usage. (I know Olf's a stickler for Japanese usage, but this is the English wikipedia... ;))
I suspect this whole area of terminology is already terminally confused, though, so if you can think of a way of rephrasing that more accurately describes the Japanese usage, go right ahead. — Haeleth Talk 19:58, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Blade

Blade is a commercial product with no English games produced with it. Ren'py has had several games produced with it. Please stop spamming this page. Ashibaka tock 22:15, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure how it's commercial. Isn't it free? And is the basis for banning Blade the fact that Ren'py is already cited?--SidiLemine 14:48, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
The "free" version is crippled nagware, designed to sell a forthcoming commercial version. It is also currently an insignificant product, with very few users and no particular notability within the English-language visual novel community.
The purpose of mentioning any visual-novel engines in the article is to give people representative examples, not to produce an exhaustive list of all available tools. We therefore cite NScripter, because it is a major product that has been used to power multiple A-list commercial visual novel games, and we cite Ren'Py, because it is a free-as-in-freedom product that is the most popular engine among English-language amateur visual novel authors. Those two are adequately representative of the range of engines available.
An additional reason to object to the Blade links is that the Blade engine is being promoted in the USA by a company called CuriousFactory Inc. The Blade links are being added to this article by a user called Curiousfactory. It doesn't take much of a leap to deduce that there's a connection, and we simply cannot condone companies adding links to their own products. — Haeleth Talk 16:41, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
Very fine with me. I was just surprised to see a revert conflict without any discussion on it on the talk page. The reasons looked quite obvious, but there are surptises in those disputes. Did anyone asked for him to be blocked already?--SidiLemine 10:34, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
I blocked him after I noticed Hareth gave him a "final warning" two days prior. Ashibaka tock 22:39, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Sources

This is a great article, well written and all. However it could probably benefit from a few good references at the bottom of the page.--SidiLemine 11:16, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Images

While I recognise that free images are vastly preferable to copyrighted images, I don't think it's really reasonable to illustrate an article about a game genre with a fake "screenshot". Particularly not if the caption claims it's a real screenshot of a "typical" game, which the Wikipe-tan image definitely would not be. (For one thing, typical visual novels are not written in Romance languages... appropriate though it would be if they were!)

A better solution, if the Kanon image is felt to be undesirable, would be to use a screenshot of a free game, or otherwise to acquire permission to release a screenshot under a free license. There are plenty of authors, certainly of free games, who would probably be very happy to give permission to place a single screenshot in the public domain or under the GFDL. If time permits, I'll put some feelers out. — Haeleth Talk 17:58, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

It's completely reasonable because we're not talking about a specific game, but how visual novels typically look (some type of cute-ish young girl in front of a backdrop image with a dialog box). If someone can get a screenshot of a "real" game released under GFDL then that would be great, and I would indeed encourage that.
WP:FUC has a "quick test" at the bottom of the page, it says "As a quick test, ask yourself: "Can this image be replaced by a different one, while still having the same effect?" If the answer is yes, then the image probably doesn't meet the criteria above." Thus, the Kanon image doesn't meet the fair use criteria, even if it is far more desirable to use real screenshots. -- Ned Scott 05:54, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
Firstly, "probably" does not mean "definitely"; secondly, that "quick test" would rule out pretty much any use of screenshots at all, since any screenshot of a game could be replaced with pretty much any other screenshot of that game. (Even a screenshot of a one-time revolutionary innovation, used to illustrate a description of that innovation, could almost certainly be replaced with a screenshot taken half a second sooner or later.) Therefore, it cannot be intended to be a universal rule.
As for the use of non-free game screenshots to illustrate genre articles, I would point out that it is completely standard practice across the whole of Misplaced Pages, and if you wish to change it here, I suggest you also look at the following articles:
...and I stopped looking after that. I submit that there is ample precedent for treating illustration of a genre as a fair use for a non-free screenshot, and any move to change that status should be discussed centrally and then implemented consistently. — Haeleth Talk 08:43, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
You can still use a fair use image if that image adds something to the article that the first does not. The Kanon image adds nothing more than the Wikipe image. The Quick test isn't about any other image, but rather, a fair use image vs a free image (can a fair use image be replaced by a free image). It obviously is not talking about two images from the same source.
I'm not opposed to the use of fair use images, and I think they usually add great value to our articles. I'm usually on the side defending the use of a fair use image. However, in this article, this specific article, that kanon image does nothing more than the Wikipe image. If fails policy. This is not optional. Had that image actually added some value to this article that Wikipe-tan's could not (an image of a girl in front of a backdrop with a dialog box) then you might have a point, but that's all the image is. This is not the same as those other articles you listed.
It fails the following requirements to be included in this article: WP:FUC #1, #8, and #10 (no fair use rational written on the description page of the image). -- Ned Scott 09:08, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
I am still waiting for you to explain how this is different from all the other examples I gave. How is using a picture of Pia Carrot 3 to illustrate the concept of a bishoujo game any different from using a picture of Kanon to illustrate the concept of a visual novel? Please clarify. — Haeleth Talk 14:47, 12 September 2006 (UTC)
We could use Kanon before because we didn't have a free example for visual novel, but now we do. When we get a free image for bishoujo then the fair use images on that article should also be removed (unless the additional images provide some additional insight, significantly different example, or relates to a section written directly about that game and the image aids in the reader's understanding of that section, etc etc). In other words, we can still use fair use images on this article even with a free image, but they must provide something significant to the article that the Wikipe-tan image does not. In most cases using a fair use image should only be seen as a temporary measure until a free image can be obtained. That is what's different. -- Ned Scott 20:14, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I took the liberty of taking the Wikipe-tan image and an image of a classroom I found in the Wikimedia commons, plugging them into Ren'Py, and producing the image you see to the right. While it is in English, it does have the advantage that the drop-shadowing is similar to what you see in real games, rather then the odd blurring used in the current shot.

I think a screenshot from a real game would probably be the best thing, but hopefully this screenshot is better than an image made in photoshop. I can fairly easily change the text to whatever is wanted.

I'm not going to add this to the page without someone more wiki-competent approving. PyTom 21:30, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I would prefer her saying something less self-promotional. And "tan" isn't capitalized. _dk 22:39, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
It's easy to make those changes, but I don't know what she should say. Any suggestions? PyTom 00:38, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
"I heard Watanabe-san was going to make his own visual novel so that we would have some free images to use on Misplaced Pages! That's the kind of guy who keeps the Internet alive, don't you think?" Ashibaka tock 15:25, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
Is that a suggestion for what she should be saying? If so, I can implement it. Or is it that someone else will make a VN. PyTom 17:08, 18 September 2006 (UTC) (A little out of it.)
It's a suggestion :) Ashibaka tock 20:55, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
Okay, I took a screenshot with your suggested text. (I still don't get who Wantanabe-san is.) PyTom 21:21, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

It means "Mr. Smith". Ashibaka tock 15:06, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

This is a pretty blatant self-reference. Surely someone can make one that at least doesn't explicitly reference Misplaced Pages, and preferably doesn't use Wikipe-tan (do we have any other freely licensed anime-style drawings?). --SPUI (T - C) 22:17, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

While it's true that free images are better than copyrighted ones on which we assert fair use, this image doesn't seem to fit very well. While all we're trying to get is the general idea of visual novels, this is just self-promotion (see WP:ASR). I think it would be best to at least simulate what a visual novel might say instead of the current caption, and we should still try to get a producer to release a screenshot under a free license, as that would be the best thing for sure. --Rory096 03:54, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

The text used is a bit silly, and the image doesn't have to actually say "Wikipe-tan". Even with that, this isn't a self-promotion, it's just an example that uses Misplaced Pages. See the image on Datamatrix, or on Mozilla Firefox (a featured article), they both use images that specifically mention Misplaced Pages.
Being a self-reference isn't always an issue. Note that WP:SELF says "To ease reusability, never allow the text of an article to assume that the reader is viewing it at Misplaced Pages, and try to avoid even assuming that the reader is viewing the article at a website." One of the reasons we avoid self-references is because things wouldn't make sense if you were reading it on paper, possibly under a different "brand" than Misplaced Pages. Using "Misplaced Pages" as an example in an image doesn't make the content or information dependent on being on Misplaced Pages. Such examples still hold the same value even when used off-site. -- Ned Scott 04:03, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Also, Wikipe-tan has been used in a bunch of other articles as well, and one of her pictures is a featured picture. She's even been seen on the Main Page twice, once for a "did you know" and once for her featured picture showing. This has come up in discussion many times, and we've basically concluded that this use is not the same kind of issue that WP:SELF tries to avoid. -- Ned Scott 04:08, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
My objection is not mainly to the use of Wikipe-tan (though I would prefer another character, at least if we had one) but to the text. --SPUI (T - C) 06:37, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

I was asked on my talk page if I could change the text of the image. I don't mind doing that, but I would prefer not to be the one to decide. -- PyTom 04:07, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

It should actually be possible to find a decent freely-licensed screenshot; there are freely-licensed visual novels, though there quality is presumably usually low. I tried going with a comedy option (MIT license) but couldn't find a good place to screencap; we should be able to find a somewhat better-quality free game. I'd assume that (Narcissu) does not allow for screenshots under a free license. --SPUI (T - C) 06:37, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

If we do use a modified version of the current image, I suggest the following:

  1. Rename the character - she looks more like a student than a teacher, so Teacher wouldn't work. Maybe Wik as her nickname? Or a completely different name?
  2. For the text, something generic like "By applying these calculations to our example, we can calculate that the buoyancy of the submarine is not enough to allow it to reach the surface."

By the way, the specific images used in the collage should be cited so as to satisfy the attribution requirement of the GFDL. --SPUI (T - C) 07:07, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

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