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Archive
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Guy Chapman? He's just zis Guy, you know? More about me

Thank you to everybody for messages of support, and to JoshuaZ for stepping up to the plate. I have written about what happened at User:JzG/Laura.

Read This First

If you need urgent admin help please go to the incident noticeboard. To stop a vandal, try the vandal intervention page. For general help why not try the help desk? If you need me personally and it's urgent you may email me, I read all messages even if I do not reply. If next time I log on is soon enough, click this link to start a new conversation.

This page may contain trolling. Some of it might even be from me, but never assume trolling where a misplaced sense of humour might explain things. This user posts using a British sense of humour.

Note to self: User talk:Brazucs, Esperanza admin coaching.

Mega Society "Calling a halt"

Can you explain your decision to call a halt a bit more? You mention a conflict of interest, puppets and apparent solicitation. But Chris Cole's conflict of interest was declared, the "puppet" (I presume User:Kevin Langdon?) has an easily verified existence IRL and what was the evidence for solicitation? Assuming that you do not wish to reconsider (although I hope you will) could you also send me a copy of the article at the point of deletion for further improvement. Thanks. --Michael C. Price 08:24, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

I support this question - do you really believe that I am a puppet or in a conflict of interest? Moreover I think that a person who started an AfD discussion should not close it (separation of powers, yes).--Ioannes Pragensis 09:31, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
They should at least let the AfD run to its natural close, instead of leaving so many questions open. --Michael C. Price 10:19, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Thing is, it was deleted and reviewed perfectly correctly, the major argument for keep is form the society's own Internet Officer, and it turns out that the user who created it either is or has a connection to Langham. Add to that the fact that there is only one non-trivial source, and the society is not only tiny but of absolutely no evident influence, and you have a pressing problem for WP:NPOV and WP:V. I should simply have deleted it in the first place. Guy (Help!) 11:45, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
You perhaps should simply have deleted it, Guy. But you did not. Therefore you should keep the procedure of AfD. And in the discussion, more users voted for the article. Please re-create the article and let the discussion continue. - I do not think that this article is essential for Misplaced Pages; but what is essential for Misplaced Pages is to keep procedures and do not trick users who believe that they are taking part in a fair discussion.--Ioannes Pragensis 12:05, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
No, I made an error and then corrected it. Guy (Help!) 12:07, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
If an error involves other people, you cannot correct it without them. To be arrogant is a bigger error than to let an unimportant article live.--Ioannes Pragensis 12:16, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
I made an error, I corrected it after it was pointed out to me. I apologise for any disruption this caused. Guy (Help!) 13:34, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
For what it's worth, although calling a halt is not really a good closing argument, Speedied as recreation of deleted content and as A7 (any assertions of notability were dismissed in the first AfD and DRV). would have been fine, with the same result. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 14:10, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
I thought I'd made that clear in the comments. Ah well. I brought it all on myself through deficiency of Clue. Guy (Help!) 14:57, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Lack of notability was not established in the original AfD, nor in the subsequent DRV. The AfD was procedurally flawed (as was AfD2, which is the correct forum for debating this). --Michael C. Price 22:20, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
That's your opinion, as a member of the group with a vested interest in keepign the content. Your view was considered at DRV and rejected. Guy (Help!) 08:00, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
The DRV closing admin explicitly endorsed rework and recreation, as detailed on the deleted article's talk page. Please stop pronoucing on subjects where you not prepared to the required background reading. --Michael C. Price 09:02, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Please refer to my arguments for including an article on the Mega Society in Misplaced Pages. Canon 01:00, 25 November 2006 (UTC)


Request for text of deleted article

I have recently created an article about Wil Harris and subsequently discovered that a previous article about him has been deleted due to non-notability of the subject. (I believe that the he may now be considered more notable and so the article should hopefully be able to remain).

I was wondering if you'd be able to obtain a copy of the text of the deleted article for me to see if there is anything I can use to improve the new article? Thanks MartinBrook t 14:54, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the quick response :) MartinBrook t 15:14, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Requested undeletion to userspace

Could a copy of the deleted Public Netbase be dropped to a subpage in my userspace? I know the original article wasn't particularly good (and died an expired prod's death), but I think I have materials together to write a survivable one, and I'd like to see what came before to see if its worth building off of with an eye toward eventual GFDL history restoration if I can get a version that will stand. Many thanks, I know you stay busy already! Serpent's Choice 15:00, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Old Friends return

Hi Guy. Don't know if you have noticed but theres been an anonymous IP going around and posting links to law websites on the talkpages of people involved in the old GLF debate which, according to a comment posted by the same IP on the talkpage of User:Omicronpersei8 are links to British legal judgements on internet slander and libel which are extemely pertinent to Misplaced Pages and its administrators, especially those who have previously sneered at UK laws in this respect. I wouldn't give it much credit if it weren't for the fact that another anon IP has been on my talkpage and altered the text of an old discussion concerning the debate, removing names and the like. Any ideas?--Edchilvers 18:51, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

ave you got the IPs? We should notify this to Foundation, I think. Guy (Help!) 22:14, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
User:81.131.113.140 is the guy going around posting links to the websites on various talkpages (although user:Omicronpersei8 reverted most of his edits in a few minutes, assuming them to be spam) whilst User:217.34.116.57 altered my talkpage.--Edchilvers 22:30, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
If that's the best they can do then we have little to worry about: there is a world of difference between calling someone an unrepentant anti-semite and noting a widely-reported conviction which is a matter of public record! The IP has been rolled back; any future nonsense can certainly be reported at WP:ANI or indeed just revert the trolling yourself. It seems to be a drive-by so there's not much more we can do right now. Guy (Help!) 22:38, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Agreed, although it struck me that they might have been seeking to provoke people into making some sort of defensive kneejerk response. Fortunately nobody appears to have taken the bait and an admin was on hand with a revert so no harm seems to have been done. Cheers--Edchilvers 23:05, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Yes, reverting is the way to handle this kind of crap. Guy (Help!) 23:11, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Lauder-Frost himself has commented on the issue on a discussion forum:

http://www.quicktopic.com/16/H/mSL58BqG2ZmUU

Gregory Lauder-Frost 1177 23-11-2006 11:25 AM GMT Edited by author 23-11-2006 11:25 AM The recent judgements in the Court of Appeal demonstrate that not only the Wikimedia Foundation can now be sued for breaking our laws but so can those editors whom the Foundation would be obliged to identify - especially if the Foundation wished to squeeze out of an action here by denying responsibility and so passing the buck. Being based in North America, our court has ruled, will not stop a judgement being made here. Given that there are increasing mechanisms for enforcement of such judgements I'd be concerned if I were the Misplaced Pages/Wikimedia legal team.

Think we ought to alert Brad?--Edchilvers 22:49, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Absolutely, not least since Brad is of the opinion that this is bullshit. Guy (Help!) 23:05, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Closure of Mega Society

I did not have a dog in this fight, since I am not a member and never heard of the society before seeing the Afd. I just like to see established process followed in deletion debates. You apparently closed the debate (early?)and deleted the article without a consensus for deletion. The closure was labelled "Guy" but clicking on the talk link brought me here, so are you also "Guy?" I am not and have never been a sock of anyone. You did not even say you were deleting it, just the you were "calling a halt." How did you determine that there was a consensus for deletion? Were any of those calling for "Keep" determined to be single purpose accounts? How many were established editors with a history of contributing to articles? I count 9 editors, none identifies as new or single purpose accounts calling for Keep and 5 calling for Delete. Thanks. Edison 20:33, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

It's a G4 and conflict of interest situation, the fact that others have been sucked in is regrettable and entirely my fault. The society has a couple of dozen members; looks like 10% of the entire membership is here boosting the article! I should never have opened the can of worms. Guy (Help!) 22:13, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
May I suggest that you cancel the "call a halt" and allow the AfD to progress, or even withdraw the AfD altogether? You clearly have a conflict of interest in both raising and suspending the AfD. --Michael C. Price 22:16, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
No, I don't think you may, since you have a vested interest in the content. Guy (Help!) 22:22, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
What vested interest? --Michael C. Price 22:23, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
http://www.megasociety.org/noesis/177.pdf, for example. Guy (Help!) 22:41, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Membership is not the same as a vested interest; association articles are typically editted by members of associations. If you're sure of your case why not let the AfD continue? Don't you have a far greater conflict of interest as the AfD raiser, as has been pointed out by others as well? --Michael C. Price 06:26, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Michael, you are accusing me of a conflict of interest, but you have a conflict of interest. You and your associates have caused more than enough disruption with this vanispamcruftisement. Guy (Help!) 07:55, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Why do you fail to address the questions raised? What is your problem with this? An AfD is meant to be a debate, not a pronouncement by one individual who is quick to assume bad faith and see conflicts of interest in others, but seems singularly incapable of recognising the same problems with his own conduct. Your claims need discussion, not assertion. That's why these procedures exist. --Michael C. Price 08:07, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Why do you spend so much time arguing for an article on a tiny vanity society with which you are associated, re-created out of process by someone else associated with the society, after it was deleted and kept deleted at review? Oh, wait, I think I might know the answer here... Guy (Help!) 08:10, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
You claim it is a vanity society, others say otherwise; again your claims needs discussion not assertion. If you examine the original AfD you will see that it was procedurally flawed, since there was no consensus for deletion; there was also the usual confusion between Chris "CTMU" Langan and his Mega Foundation and the distinct Mega Society. Your claim about it being recreated out of process is incorrect, as I pointed out on the now deleted talk:Mega Society, I was explicitly given leave by the closing admin to recreate it at the DRV. Finally, I note again, you hint at bad faith. --Michael C. Price 08:25, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
"You and your associates have caused more than enough disruption with this vanispamcruftisement..." Guy, please, be not paranoic and do not accuse without proofs. For example I am not a member of the society, nor an associate of Michael. In fact, I found the AfD discussion only by chance. And moreover, there is no rule prohibiting members to edit articles about their organizations and to discuss them - so please do not use false arguments ad hominem. I think that your behaviour in this case is not OK and can corrupt your good reputation here. Please, rethink the whole case once more after a good cup of tea. :-) --Ioannes Pragensis 08:50, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
There are three individuals associated with the group who between them are responsible for most of the edits, most of the argument, and the out of process re-creation. In the end, the group fails the primary notability criterion (multiple non-trivial coverage in reliable sources independent of the subject). We have one borderline non-trivial independent secondary source cited. The involvement of parties with a clear conflict of interest, and virtually nobody else, means a problem for WP:V and WP:NPOV as well, and the absence of any significant number of sources underlines that. Almost all the article was, in any case, a discussion of the validity of IQ tests above 4sd from the mean, which belongs in IQ. Once that is stripped out we have existence, namechecks, and nothing else. No evidence of objective significance has ever been produced (the sole acceptable source seems to regard it as a curiosity). There is some evidence of !vote solicitation and no evidence that this society has any importance outside the minds of its members, who are the main ones arguing for its inclusion. The group gets under 700 Google hits outside of Misplaced Pages and forums, zero Google News hits, nothing apparently relevant on an academic search, either for the group or citing their journal. In short, they appear, by reference to the standard tests, to be less significant than me - I score over three times the number of Google hits and have citations in some learned journals. And believe me, there is nothing notable about me. Guy (Help!) 12:14, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Guy, I have no doubt that Mega Society is not extremely notable - in fact I regard it as a clear borderline case and I will surely not cry for it if it will be deleted. But if you have initiated a discussion, you should respect rights of those who were involved. I am sorry, but as clever as you are, you are still not a super-user with a monopoly on truth. Even if the users are members of the society, they have still the same right to speak as other users including you and me. Understand me: I do not protest against the result, but against the procedure, against the idea that one admin has automatically more right than nine rank and file users. I lived here in Prague too many years under almighty leaders with a monopoly on truth, so I do not wish to repeat these experiences. - Regarding the sources, they mentioned at least two independent important ones: The Wall Street Journal and the Guiness Book of Records. This is much more than in cases of many other articles about local schools and local bands and obscure video games. Greetings, --Ioannes Pragensis 13:18, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

And there are the Omni articles. Omni sold very well in the UK for many years (and probably in the States as well); their repeated coverage of the Mega Society indicates a commercial recognition of public interest in the subject. The professed lack of notability is not as self-evident as Guy indicates. Follow procedures and allow a discussion. --Michael C. Price 13:50, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Ioannes, it is like this: I initiated the discussion in error. I should have read the DRV with more care. I corrected my error, prompted by comments at the AfD I mistakenly opened. Case closed, as far as I'm concerned. Guy (Help!) 14:14, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
If the AfD was mistakenly opened then calling a halt to it shouldn't cause the article to be deleted; restore it and we can all be done. --Michael C. Price 14:38, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Nice try, no kewpie doll. I did what I should have done in the first place and deleted the vanispamcruftisement. Guy (Help!) 15:39, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Have you not noticed that AfDs get closed early all the time when the article qualifies as a speedy delete? -- Donald Albury 19:54, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Have you not noticed that a speedy delete was rejected just a few weeks ago? --Michael C. Price 00:37, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
Have you not noticed your conflict of interest yet? Guy (Help!) 00:38, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
Acknowledged awhile ago, unlike yours. --Michael C. Price 00:51, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
...which is illusory. Like I said, if I'd simply deleted this outright as I should have, we would not be having this discussion. No, actually, looking at your history with respect to this subject, we probably would be... Guy (Help!) 00:53, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
Judge, jury and executioner. Why do you think AfDs exist? Or the DRV closer advised rework and repost? --Michael C. Price 00:59, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Marsden-Donnelly harassment case

Fyi, this is now live. I kept the article semi-protected, as it was before. I'll leave it up to you if you want to change it. ~ trialsanderrors 06:02, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Mega Society recreated by sock puppet

Hi!

I am sorry to bother you with this but a little under an hour ago Mega Society was recreated by a single-purpose account. Also, moments after my speedy tag was removed by Michael Price. Could you salt and block please? Also should I request CheckUser on Michael Price given his mysterious appearence moments after a single purpose account recreated the article?

Cheers, MartinDK 18:43, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Hardly mysterious: it's on my watchlist. Do do a UserCheck. --Michael C. Price 18:46, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
I have lots of deleted articles on my watchlist, too. Guy (Help!) 18:49, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Avi, could you, as an admin, restore the Mega Society and its talk page, with histories? User:JzG admits he raised the 2nd AfD in error but refuses to restore the article in despite of a number of complaints on his talk page, from various users, about his violation of procedure. Or should I go to arbitration? --Michael C. Price talk 16:01, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Avraham"
cannot restore it directly per wiki policy. I suggest first WP:DRV and perhaps mention on WP:AN/I. -- Avi 17:54, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Thanks. If the problem continues I might take it to WP:AN/I, although it has just become moot since someone else has just re-created it. Well, sort of... --Michael C. Price talk 18:22, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:MichaelCPrice"
Thanks for solving the problem. The above conversation in mind I'll assume good faith and just let it be. That's why I thought it would be a good idea to ask you first since I'm still kind of new here when it comes to these things. Still sounds like an odd sequence of events to me but it doesn't matter anymore. MartinDK 19:10, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Castle Park deletion

Just curious why you deleted "Castle Park, Michigan" wiki? You did not provide a reason.

There is a reason stated in the deletion, but for the record the entire contents of the article was Castle Park is a small private community of 100 summer houses and cottages along the Lake Michigan shore. The community has a small castle built in 1890 by a German immigrant businessman, Michael Schwarz. No sources, no claim of significance. I was just the janitor here anyway, User:Elonka tagged it for speedy deletion due to failure to make any claim of notability. Small private communities? Hard to think where they fit on the notability guidelines. If you can find a number of non-trivial independent sources of some authority then perhaps it might pass, I don't know. Guy (Help!) 22:38, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
WP:NOT a directory, of malls or anything else. A spamming campaign by a property development company is being dealt with. Guy (Help!) 09:01, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Metrocenter Mall (Mississippi)

I am not particularly interested in retailing in Mississippi, but I was able to find two references for Metrocenter Mall (Mississippi). Viewing the full article costs money, but the free preview gives you a general idea of what the article is about. http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_go1584/is_200410/ai_n7035153 Mississippi Business Journal, October, 2004 by Lynn Lofton "Metrocenter-area businesses stay optimistic despite departure; coalition cleaning house to attract new faces" As well, an article in the Jackson Free Press at http://www.jacksonfreepress.com/cover_comments.php?id=354_0_9_0_C describes the mall's curfew policy. If you think these articles establish notability, could you please restore the article and add the references? --TruthbringerToronto (Talk | contribs) 01:25, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

WP:NOT a directory, of malls or anything else. A spamming campaign by a property development company is being dealt with. Guy (Help!) 09:01, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Colonial Mall Decatur

Umm, can you please explain to me why the Colonial Mall Decatur was deleted. You gave no reason, that I could find. I looked in the pages for deletion and could not find it listed. Please, tell me why you, for some odd reason, deleted this article. AlaGuy 06:40, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

WP:NOT a directory, of malls or anything else. A spamming campaign by a property development company is being dealt with. Guy (Help!) 09:01, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
Ummmm, I don't believe that the article was a directory or spam. I created the page and I am in no way form or fashion related to the mall. I despise the place. I really don't understand why it was deleted. Now, if someone spammed the site, wouldn't it just make more sense to delete the spam and delete the IP address or user? AlaGuy 19:56, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Pecanland Mall

This was a very informative article, even if it had mistakes, did not deserve deletion. As a newbie, I do not know the proper channels for things here, nor do I wish to, however I ask that you look into the deletion of this article. Thanks!

WP:NOT a directory, of malls or anything else. A spamming campaign by a property development company is being dealt with. Guy (Help!) 09:01, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Cynwyd Elementary School

Regardless of the result of the earlier AfD, and regardless of when it occured, articles can and are recreated after "failing" an AfD. In many cases, the explicit purpose of a redirect is to allow the article to be recreated once additional information is available to establish notability. If you compare the article as it exists now after undoing your revert to the one that existed at the time of the AfD, you will see that the article has been expanded, is fully sourced, and makes explicit claims of notability. Pursuing a WP:DRV is not an option, as I have no issue whatsoever with the decision based on the state of the article at the point the the AfD was created and the decision made to "Speedy Delete" was not unjustified at the time. If you feel that the article in its current state does not merit inclusion in Misplaced Pages, the next step would be to create another AfD. Alansohn 14:59, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Call me jaded, but seeing it back in all it's "glory" so soon after the AfD looks awfully like "I don't like that result, I think I'll just ignore it". The next step surely should be DRV, rather than simply ignoring the (very recent) AfD. Guy (Help!) 15:01, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
I will call you jaded. Please share with me a specification of how long one must wait to recreate an article and I will wait the requisite amount of time. Now that it exists, it either meets criteria for retention or it does not. Pursuing a WP:DRV can only challenge the legitimacy of the original AfD, which I do not question. In the rush to close this, there was no time to enhance the article to meet the issues that had been raised. They have been addressed, necessarily post facto, and stand to serve the community for this article. Alansohn 21:21, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
Longer than you did, anyway. If you'd taken the new information to DRV I'm confident the result would have been no problem, and I am certainly no process wonk, policy is all, but I think you'd have to agree it doesn't look good, does it? It's not like there is any kind of widespread consensus to keep schools at this level, there are simply too many of them. Guy (Help!) 22:33, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

Response

The only reason I didn't take you to arbitration is because you are part of the cabal and I am not. Your repeated threats to block Skybum for saying something he never said should alone have been punishable; not to mention your repeated wholesale reverts, repeated unfounded accusations of POV-pushing, and admitted conflict of interest with Avidor (so much of a fan of Avidor that you, a deletionist, created and defended the barely-notable Roadkill Bill article - yet you never recused yourself from that mediation).

Now, you grossly mis-characterize the dispute in the Non-notability arbitration. It's one thing to repeatedly ignore the rules on the little-viewed PRT pages, it's quite another to bend the truth to attack Fresheneesz in his arbitration, where everyone is watching. That, to me, is the last straw. If I thought I had a snowball's chance of breaking through the Misplaced Pages cabal mentality, you'd be in arbitration today. The evidence is certainly all there.

But I'm enough of a realist to know that arb com will not rule against you unless you do something that overtly hurts the project. You are on the inside, the four of us were not, therefore there was no way I was going to win in arbitration.. The difference between Fresheneesz and me is he is more idealistic than I am. I knew the Misplaced Pages oligarchy was impenetrable unless I sold out; Fresheneesz thought he could fight the cabal and win. The current status of his arbitration is yet more proof that my cynical view is dead-on.

So, go ahead, call me a megalomaniac if it makes you happy. I choose the term "realist": I now know what Misplaced Pages is, how it works, and how to protect it from POV abuses like the one you tried to pull on the PRT pages. I check in here every now and then, and I've got a few articles on my watchlist in case you decide to go on another crusade in support of your favorite cartoonist. So instead of thinking of me as a megalomaniac, maybe you should consider me a watchdog - someone who faced real MPOV (from someone on the inside, no less) and won, and continues to watch diligently for future abuses. Nothing more, nothing less. ATren 17:55, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

I rather wish you had. Since every other person who came along told you exactly the same thing I did, it might finally have persuaded you that when lots and lots of people tell you that you are wrong, sometimes it's because you are wrong. Oh, and my favourite cartoonist is Scott Adams. Just so you know. Guy (Help!) 22:24, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
You prove my point! It's a cabal... of course they all agreed with you! Why do you think I didn't go to arb com, because I didn't have a case? Of course I had a case. I still have a spreadsheet with links to all of your abusive edits. The only reason I didn't go because I wouldn't get a fair arbitration against an admin like yourself - all your buddies would swarm into the debate and defend you regardless of the merits of the case.
So I had to fight for all my changes, and after months of persistence, every single one of the edits you summarily reverted eventually got in. Despite your insider status and blatant ownership issues, I was able to defend the article from your POV pushing. Not with mediation and arbitration - those are worthless for non-admins - I did it with patience, research, and dogged persistence. That's what Fresheneesz doesn't yet understand: trying to change the way things are will never work for outsiders like us. The best we can do is fight for truth on a case by case basis, even when someone as influential as yourself tries to elevate cartoon to fact. ATren 22:58, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
Is that how it looks in ATrenWorld? Glad the rest of us don't live there. As for being influential, I think that's an amusing piece of nonsense. there is nocabal, but even if there were I would not be counted part of it. Influential editors are people like Uncle G. Guy (Help!) 23:09, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
Oh, I see now - there's no cabal because the cabal says there isn't! Now you've got me laughing out loud! Thanks for the comic relief.
As for "conspiracy theories", I'm not the one who believes that PRT is a worldwide conspiracy against trains... ATren 23:28, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
Neither am I. But I don't believe the article reflects anything I'm likely to see in my lifetime, either, so at least I live in the real world :-) Guy (Help!) 23:33, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
And what you believe is all that matters, right? WP:OWN. ATren 23:50, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
LOL! Another priceless gem! ATren accuses me of WP:OWN! I'm lovin' it :-D Guy (Help!) 23:52, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
Would you like me to post the countless reverts on PRT where you basically decided your version was the right one and reverted us on sight? Would that make you laugh even harder? Would you like me to post the links to your threats to block Skybum for opposing you? Would that make you fall on the floor laughing? How about links to you repeatedly accusing us of POV pushing even when we tried to engage you in real debate? Would that send you into a paroxysm of uncontrollable laughter? ATren 23:58, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
ZOMG! Rouge admin abuse! Better go and get your Spider-Man suit. Guy (Help!) 00:12, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
You mock that which you cannot defend. In any event, I will post the evidence on my user page, and then every time you try to insinuate that the four of us were at fault, I can just point to that evidence. It won't make a difference to your status, because your position makes you immune to reprimand, but at least other editors will be able to see your abuses for themselves. ATren 00:20, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
You are right, I mock you because you are indefensible :-) Guy (Help!) 00:23, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
So I assume by your light hearted responses you have no objection to me posting this evidence on my user page? ATren 00:30, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Will it ever end? For me it will end soon. The two chief PRT-promoting elected officials in Minnesota face jail time for criminal offences... too bad the Misplaced Pages PRT article has nothing about that. Zimmermann will be likely sentenced for his bribery conviction in January and Mark Olson will go on trial for domestic assault next month Avidor 01:32, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Here we go again... pointless links back to his own blog. Why isn't this considered linkspam, JzG? You're against linkspam, unless it's posted by your cartoonist idol. You're a fierce deletionist, except when it comes to your own fancruft. You're unswerving in protecting Misplaced Pages against abuse, but you steadfastly refuse to criticise Avidor's well-documented abuses. Why is that, JzG? Do the rules not apply to you and your friends? ATren 03:16, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
Here's a link not on that articleAvidor 03:43, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Page on an Arizona shopping mall deleted without warning

Metrocenter Mall on deletion review

An editor has asked for a deletion review of Metrocenter Mall. Since you closed the deletion discussion for (or speedy-deleted) this article, your reasons on how or why you did so will be greatly appreciated in the above review.

Paradise Valley Mall on deletion review

An editor has asked for a deletion review of Paradise Valley Mall. Since you closed the deletion discussion for (or speedy-deleted) this article, your reasons on how or why you did so will be greatly appreciated in the above review.

(Apologies for placing this in the wrong area at first)

I have been editing pages on shopping centers in the Phoenix, AZ area, where I live, and the San Francisco Bay Area, where I grew up.

Today I found that the page "Metrocenter Mall" was deleted by you citing (WP:CSD G11, spam,) as a reason. I would beg to disagree with your conclusion as 1) Metrocenter is a major shopping center in Phoenix, one of the USA's major cities and 2) using such criteria would arguably disqualify several dozen articles on shopping malls, including all the other ones in the Phoenix area (see List of shopping malls in the United States). Shopping centers are a topic of great social, cultural and economic significance in the USA and worldwide and deserve coverage on Misplaced Pages. Articles on them should not be deleted. Please strongly consider reposting the article, and/or I will begin a replacement article within 48 hours. I have posted a complaint on Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents.--Msr69er 18:20, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

See several sections above. I deleted a very large number of articles many of which were part of an evident spamming campaign and all of which seemed to me to be directory entries, one of the things that Misplaced Pages is not. Guy (Help!) 22:13, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
I am making a similar assertion that the article Paradise Valley Mall needs to be reinstated on the same grounds. I disagree that any of the articles on the Phoenix Westcor malls qualify as spam. I made substantial edits to the article Paradise Valley Mall which make it much more encyclopedic in tone than the original.--Msr69er 00:32, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
Misplaced Pages is still not a directory. Guy (Help!) 00:34, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
After reading the guideline on directory entries, I would assert that the entire classification of shopping centers, if this guideline were to be strictly applied across the board, may indeed be considered inappropriate for Misplaced Pages. I am a relatively new Wikipedian so I'm still learning the rules. There should be a long and hard debate on this as it would theoretically mean the deletion of dozens upon dozens of well written individual articles on individual shopping centers, many of which denote places of strong and significant cultural, social and economic interest (along with major skyscrapers, sports stadiums, universities, government buildings such as the U.S. Capitol, etc.,) - and for such reason I would always argue for inclusion. Again I assert that the shopping center category is completely appropriate for coverage on Misplaced Pages, but if it is not, what would make that category appropriate at all? Let's have a debate among Wikipedians on it. Where do I start?--Msr69er 01:20, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
JzG, you say on the deletion review page that "the primary notability criterion (for appropriateness as an encyclopedia article)...is having been the subject of multiple non-trivial coverage in reliable secondary sources independent of the subject". The Arizona malls have been extensively coverered for decades in local media (newspapers and locally produced magazines), and are considered a vital part of the regional economy. Would the remedy for reinstatement simply be the inclusion of more footnotes?--Msr69er 01:36, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

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